Star Wars: The Force Awakens Trailer

[Dienekes]

That said, while finding out Vader is Luke's father was a fantastic moment for me when I was young, Empire Strikes Back is still plenty enjoyable after the reveal.

Similarly, Fight Club and The Usual Suspects both have fairly important reveals but they are also still greatly enjoyable movies on re-watch.

I can see the argument that a spoiled movie should still be enjoyable to be good. But a good twist or curve can leave quite an impression when first seen (or read, the same is true for books as well) and not wanting that feeling messed with is a perfectly reasonable mentality.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

That said, while finding out Vader is Luke's father was a fantastic moment for me when I was young, Empire Strikes Back is still plenty enjoyable after the reveal.

I wasn't alive when the original trilogy was out in theaters. I had seen them though when I was young enough not to be 'spoiled' but the heart wrenching scene is still as hard hitting surprise or not.

[Scowling Dragon]

Spoiler

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While I don't disagree with you on every point - the movie was very rooted in a new hope, although I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing and it could have done with a bit more subtlety in places, I think you're being a bit unfair on that last point.

Throughout the movie we're shown 3 things about Kylo that are relevant for that last fight.
First, he's not that good with a lightsaber. See that ridiculous sweeping swing he uses for everything, even that first execution. Not at all practical.
Second, he has massive anger issues.
Third, he just got shot and spends the entire fight trying to deal with the fact that he's bleeding from the chest.
He's not meant to be Vader. He's not meant to be the unstoppable force. He's a whiny teenager who wants to be Vader, and is scared that he isn't up to it (which he's not at this point), and so is overcompensating. He's not even fully trained.

Given all of that, I don't think it's unrealistic that he could be beaten by a talented but untrained person. They do have a fight, but it's hardly action hero. They both look barely competent. It's basic cuts and thrusts rather than anything fancy. A hero's journey doesn't necessitate that they be useless at the beginning, nor that they go straight up against the strongest enemy.

I may be overthinking this, and possibly giving a bit too much credit, but I still think the above statement isn't giving quite enough.

Man, doing this on a phone is hard.

Return of the Counterspoiler

Spoiler: Counter

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As well as using mind trick and jedi stuff, alongside uber acrobatics.

If the characters don't seem that proficient in it, its because the choreography wasn't well done. Not because they decided to hold back.

Hows this supposed to end at the end of the Journey? Prequel Style speed Choreography? Where its tons of movement and flash?

Im also saying thats its a remake as in plot for plot beat. I understand that I mean the Flash Gordon underpinnings are simple. But beat for beat? There isn't a single original bone in its body. Like a "Star Wars Greatest Hits" reboot.

[Olinser]

Return of the Counterspoiler

Spoiler: Counter

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As well as using mind trick and jedi stuff, alongside uber acrobatics.

If the characters don't seem that proficient in it, its because the choreography wasn't well done. Not because they decided to hold back.

Hows this supposed to end at the end of the Journey? Prequel Style speed Choreography? Where its tons of movement and flash?

Im also saying thats its a remake as in plot for plot beat. I understand that I mean the Flash Gordon underpinnings are simple. But beat for beat? There isn't a single original bone in its body. Like a "Star Wars Greatest Hits" reboot.

Really if you think about it, the level of saber fighting in episodes 1-3 vs 4-6 and the newest one makes perfect sense. In the prequels Jedi have been around for thousands of years wielding lightsabers and perfectly honing the art of fighting with them.

Episode 4 onward there are pretty much 4 people on screen that actually have experience in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat in the galaxy (Obi-Wan, Vader, Palpatine, Yoda - remember we're apparently discounting all book canon so characters like Mara Jade do not exist). For actually fighting with a saber Obi-Wan is extremely old and slow, Vader is a rebuilt metal man and not exactly as spry as he used to be in his life support armor, Palpatine is ANCIENT and doesn't even pick one up, and Yoda is already at death's door.

Then all 4 of them die without really training anybody else extensively on saber use. Yoda gave Luke a crash course over a few weeks but Jedi trained with sabers for YEARS before they were even considered proficient in them. Luke is barely adequate and there aren't exactly a lot of opponents to hone his skills against.

So it actually makes quite a bit of sense that somebody like Ren, who presumably was never officially trained in saber use by Vader/Palpatine, to not exactly be a master at it.

[Maethirion]

Return of the Counterspoiler

Spoiler: Counter

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As well as using mind trick and jedi stuff, alongside uber acrobatics.

If the characters don't seem that proficient in it, its because the choreography wasn't well done. Not because they decided to hold back.

Hows this supposed to end at the end of the Journey? Prequel Style speed Choreography? Where its tons of movement and flash?

Im also saying thats its a remake as in plot for plot beat. I understand that I mean the Flash Gordon underpinnings are simple. But beat for beat? There isn't a single original bone in its body. Like a "Star Wars Greatest Hits" reboot.

Spoiler: Spoilering this as we're treading very close to giving away plot points to those who haven't seen it yet

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I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on the remake point. There's definitely an element of truth to what you're saying. I just personally don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. It was certainly entertaining, if nothing else. I also think it's not QUITE as bad as you're making out. It's also not as though Phantom Menace didn't have a VERY similar shape. I'd be more inclined to call it "First Episode of a Star Wars Trilogy Plot"

Spoiler: Revenge of the Counter-Spoiler

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I think the mind trick might have been a bit much (Was that a clone? Are they more weak willed? Or is that something I'm misremembering. They brought up clones at one point, but I missed whether it was we are using clones or we aren't.

On the other hand, I'm with Olinser on this point. Kylo isn't that great with a lightsaber, and that makes sense. So if someone naturally gifted picks one up and fights him while he's injured and going through some emotional things that are going to make it hard to concentrate? I don't think it stretches the imagination that they might win. I would be there right alongside you complaining if it was prequel level choreography, as that implies a much higher level of training.
Maybe I missed it, but I'm not remembering any super acrobatics - can you give me an example of that?

As to the end of the journey, it doesn't need to reach prequel levels of choreography at all. I would just want to look at them and think "Yep, they know what they're doing" as opposed to "That one is fighting like a petulant child, and the other is barely holding him off with basic blocks and thrusts. It doesn't have to be an extreme to be a progression.

[Professor Gnoll]

Spoiler: Revenge of the Counter-Spoiler

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I think the mind trick might have been a bit much (Was that a clone? Are they more weak willed? Or is that something I'm misremembering. They brought up clones at one point, but I missed whether it was we are using clones or we aren't.

On the other hand, I'm with Olinser on this point. Kylo isn't that great with a lightsaber, and that makes sense. So if someone naturally gifted picks one up and fights him while he's injured and going through some emotional things that are going to make it hard to concentrate? I don't think it stretches the imagination that they might win. I would be there right alongside you complaining if it was prequel level choreography, as that implies a much higher level of training.
Maybe I missed it, but I'm not remembering any super acrobatics - can you give me an example of that?

As to the end of the journey, it doesn't need to reach prequel levels of choreography at all. I would just want to look at them and think "Yep, they know what they're doing" as opposed to "That one is fighting like a petulant child, and the other is barely holding him off with basic blocks and thrusts. It doesn't have to be an extreme to be a progression.

Spoiler: Son of the Return of the Revenge of the Counter-Spoiler

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We are not using clones. General Hux specifically mentions that his soldiers are normal humans raised from birth to be soldiers. The mind trick scene just demonstrates that Rey has a lot of Force potential.
As for the fight scene, also keep in mind that Kylo wasted a lot of energy fighting Finn. Those wide angry sweeps would really drain your stamina, and he does a lot of them. Plus Rey was already a pretty good close combat fighter, as we see when she fights the Jakku thugs. As for super acrobatics, there weren't any in the whole movie.

[Pronounceable]

Spoiler: spoilers about spoilers, double spoils

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What I hear of this movie sounds like the worst possible outcome. Prequels were terrible, yes, but they were trying to be different (and failed to be good). This one, for most intents and purposes, is a "love letter for the fans" aka creatively bankrupt cashgrabby sequel. It's categorically worse. It's still gonna be entertaining (and probably better than prequels), yes, but I could probably have the same amount of entertainment from rewatching the old trilogy.

If they'd tried to actually do something with SW setting, be original, put new life into it, I'd go see it. Since they didn't bother, I won't bother either. It'll appear on TV/internet for free eventually and if I die before that happens it won't be a big loss. So looking up spoilers has saved me a small amount of money, it's not a bad policy.

[Professor Gnoll]

Spoiler: spoilers about spoilers, double spoils

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What I hear of this movie sounds like the worst possible outcome. Prequels were terrible, yes, but they were trying to be different (and failed to be good). This one, for most intents and purposes, is a "love letter for the fans" aka creatively bankrupt cashgrabby sequel. It's categorically worse. It's still gonna be entertaining (and probably better than prequels), yes, but I could probably have the same amount of entertainment from rewatching the old trilogy.

If they'd tried to actually do something with SW setting, be original, put new life into it, I'd go see it. Since they didn't bother, I won't bother either. It'll appear on TV/internet for free eventually and if I die before that happens it won't be a big loss. So looking up spoilers has saved me a small amount of money, it's not a bad policy.

Spoiler: Spoileriffic

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Woah, woah, slow down there. This film is by no means a simple rehash of the originals. It's serious breathing of new life into the franchise, filled with incredible moments and wonderful spectacle, with the best acting Star Wars has ever seen to boot. Does it borrow a lot from the originals? Yes. Is it still worth watching? Absolutely. Please don't be turned off by the fact that it isn't a 100% original product- it shines on its own as a fantastic entry in a venerable franchise. Saying that it's categorically worse because it borrows elements from something would be like saying that A New Hope is categorically worse than Flash Gordon and other old sci-fi serials, given that it unashamedly borrows from them.

[Scowling Dragon]

YESSSSSS It Begins!

Spoiler: Spoiler 2! Electric Bogaloo!

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My point is that in terms of language of cinema, I highly doubt that any thought whatsoever has been put into the swordplay. Its the way it is because JJ sees it the coolest that way.

Simply Put, JJ is a man only capable of seeing the most superficial aspects of franchises. Your all desperately trying to run around and excuse the writers garbage, but JJ did this because he doesn't understand how a movie could end without the Protagonist fighting and defeating the antagonist in the end in Hand to hand combat and still be a satisfying movie.

Star Treck 2 anyone?

"Buh Clone Troopers are Weak minded?". By language of cinema its irrelevant. The point is JJ is a 5 year old kid

"What? Luke didn't get to use a lightsaber in ANH? LAME! Man it was all about their camaraderie and ethereal victory and something beyond the physical. BORING. If I was making the movie, Luke would bust out a lightsaber and kick darth vaders butt!"

As for Prequel choreography, I was joking. Because prequel choreography is the embodiment of all flash no substance. Its all super fast, but anyone could notice how telegraphed all the attacks are and how nonsensical the swings are to create the speed effect. Its an elaborate dance.

[Chen]

As for Prequel choreography, I was joking. Because prequel choreography is the embodiment of all flash no substance. Its all super fast, but anyone could notice how telegraphed all the attacks are and how nonsensical the swings are to create the speed effect. Its an elaborate dance

Very few people are going to the movies to see realistic swordplay. Especially with futuristic laser swords.

[Scowling Dragon]

You can do both. Effort and artistry, yet mass appeal and fun are not counters to each other.

There is more fun swordplay and then there is "SHAKE THE KEYS IN FRON'T OF YOUR FACE!".

Edit:

Heck Im not trained in swordfighting, and even I can tell how fake it is.

[Chen]

You can do both. Effort and artistry, yet mass appeal and fun are not counters to each other.

There is more fun swordplay and then there is "SHAKE THE KEYS IN FRON'T OF YOUR FACE!".

Edit:

Heck Im not trained in swordfighting, and even I can tell how fake it is.

I have no idea how difficult or not it would be to make the fights realistic but still as appealing. Most movie sword fights are pretty damn fake, but it's rarely a point that gets brought up to the detriment of the movie. I presume it's just cheaper to get a choreographer who can make it look pretty than one who can make it look pretty and be realistic.

[Scowling Dragon]

Its pretty but even in that sense its bad. The fights exist in two states: never-ending fight. And Lose

There is no middle ground, there is go gaining power, loosing power. Your just incredible at parrying every strike, until suddenly the combat slows down for that single dramatic slice.

It is bad for the movie because it doesn't carry character emotion, a sense of rising or lowering energy or anything. Its unoriginal and the characters may as well bust out in a High School Musical Dance number.

[Dienekes]

I have no idea how difficult or not it would be to make the fights realistic but still as appealing. Most movie sword fights are pretty damn fake, but it's rarely a point that gets brought up to the detriment of the movie. I presume it's just cheaper to get a choreographer who can make it look pretty than one who can make it look pretty and be realistic.

As someone who is trained in swordsmanship (though admittedly, I pretty much suck). If they're not wearing armor that actually protects them from the sword, any fight that lasts longer than a minute or two is not realistic, really 30 seconds is often long enough, and just about nothing in the prequels were realistic, at all. That said a good movie duel doesn't really have to be realistic to be enjoyable. But some good rules of thumb:

Attacks should generally not be wide, slow to start, and completely expose the body. Though, a few techniques that are used look like they would expose the attacker, but are actually relatively safe, for example the Vom Tag stance and Alber stance both look like they're exposing the body, but any attack from them quickly closes the enemies lines of attack in a way that automatically parries many of the enemies attack.

Attacks should serve a purpose. In general that purpose will be stabbing or striking the opponent. Attacks against the air don't do that. Attacks against the enemies weapon are also generally pointless, unless the goal of the attack is to beat the opposing weapon out of your way for a more open next attack.

Jumping around is pretty silly, unless it's specifically a quick spring to either get within attacking distance, or dodge an attack.

Spinning your weapon is only really done to continue momentum. Probably the best example I can think of where spinning your weapon in a movie would have been really useful is Empire Strikes Back. After Vader gets tapped on the shoulder, Vader does a, probably over-complicated but successful beat to Luke's lightsaber. This meant that all of Luke's momentum was going away from his center, he then tries to force his blade to stop and then reposition back to a dueling stance (presumably he never gets there). This slows down the sword to a stop and then Luke has to
start moving again against the momentum, instead using that momentum to swing around back into a dueling position would have been faster and possibly saved his hand from the following blow Vader delivers. Honestly, it's a pretty common mistake for newer swordsman, and I'd be lying if I said I have never done something similar.

Honestly, while I would love seeing a realistic duel. Quite often the audience won't be able to tell the difference so long as they aren't doing anything too obviously pointless, like the twirling glowstick thing they did in Episode 3. Unless they specifically draw attention to how a character is poorly trained, I generally wouldn't look too much into the level of swordsmanship Star Wars characters actually show.

[Professor Gnoll]

*Snip*

People surviving in a sword fight for more than 30 seconds becomes even more ridiculous when the fighters involved are wielding weapons that can cut at any angle with effectively no resistance, and don't require a high swing speed to cut.

Spoiler: Star Wars Spoilers II: Attack of the Spoilers

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That said, I thought the last fight did a good job of maintaining high energy without feeling overly-choreographed, like the immensely overrated Darth Maul fight from 1. And the idea that ending the movie with a physical confrontation somehow cheapens it honestly seems ridiculous. Kylo Ren is a physical threat; Snoke will likely be a mental or spiritual one.

[Maethirion]

YESSSSSS It Begins!

Spoiler: Spoiler 2! Electric Bogaloo!

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My point is that in terms of language of cinema, I highly doubt that any thought whatsoever has been put into the swordplay. Its the way it is because JJ sees it the coolest that way.

Simply Put, JJ is a man only capable of seeing the most superficial aspects of franchises. Your all desperately trying to run around and excuse the writers garbage, but JJ did this because he doesn't understand how a movie could end without the Protagonist fighting and defeating the antagonist in the end in Hand to hand combat and still be a satisfying movie.

Star Treck 2 anyone?

"Buh Clone Troopers are Weak minded?". By language of cinema its irrelevant. The point is JJ is a 5 year old kid

"What? Luke didn't get to use a lightsaber in ANH? LAME! Man it was all about their camaraderie and ethereal victory and something beyond the physical. BORING. If I was making the movie, Luke would bust out a lightsaber and kick darth vaders butt!"

As for Prequel choreography, I was joking. Because prequel choreography is the embodiment of all flash no substance. Its all super fast, but anyone could notice how telegraphed all the attacks are and how nonsensical the swings are to create the speed effect. Its an elaborate dance.

Spoiler: Spoiler Three: Exstatic Jubilee

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I'm not sure what the language of cinema had to do with any of that...

Firstly, I would hardly call presenting my view of the film as I saw it "desperately trying to run around and excuse the writer's garbage".

I don't think you're giving fight choreographers enough credit here. Putting JJ Abrams (who you clearly dislike) aside for a second, those sequences were choreographed by professionals, who are quite good at their jobs. Every fight choreographer I have ever worked with (although admittedly that is only three - small sample size, I know) has been massively into showing elements of character through the way the characters fight. Even in the prequels, which were horrendously overchoreographed at times, each character had a fairly distinctive style, and you could read emotion through the way they fight. If a character fights amateurishly, I think it's fairly safe to say it was choreographed that way.

Snip
Unless they specifically draw attention to how a character is poorly trained, I generally wouldn't look too much into the level of swordsmanship Star Wars characters actually show.

That was all actually a really interesting read - thank you for that. My (admittedly also very little) training is mostly in olympic-style fencing, and stage fencing, both of which are quite different so I hadn't caught much of that. While I'm with you on realism of the fights not really being an issue, I still think that if your average person looks at a fighter and says that they only look borderline competent, that's choreographed on purpose, rather than a happy accident.

People surviving in a sword fight for more than 30 seconds becomes even more ridiculous when the fighters involved are wielding weapons that can cut at any angle with effectively no resistance, and don't require a high swing speed to cut.

Spoiler: Star Wars Spoilers II: Attack of the Spoilers

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That said, I thought the last fight did a good job of maintaining high energy without feeling overly-choreographed, like the immensely overrated Darth Maul fight from 1. And the idea that ending the movie with a physical confrontation somehow cheapens it honestly seems ridiculous. Kylo Ren is a physical threat; Snoke will likely be a mental or spiritual one.

Professor Gnoll is saying pretty much everything I'm thinking, only far more eloquently.

[Scowling Dragon]

Il simply say I disagree. Deeply and fundamentally. Simply put because all Swordplay choreography is just fancy stuff, unless a character does super obvious wide swings compared against a better character, or unless a character mentions stuff like "Just a rookie", its not to represent weakness or strength.

Oh Im sure the choreographers put their all into everything. But I greatly disbelieve that JJ puts any deep thought into anything.

I make my bais against him clear NOW, but I believed he could do something good with Star Wars, but finding out just how much of a pathetic, ****ty, uninspired, "OMG Its Harrison Ford!", lowest common denominator, "Greatest Hits!", jingle keys in your face, "Ass the Movie", bull**** he made, has completely decided my opinion against him.

Swordplay isn't even the main point here. The main protagonist starts off the movie, acrobatic, athletic, trained in swordsmanship (Even if it isn't "Finished) and trained in the force.

Because JJ Abrahms has the talent of a 6 year old child and is a hack.

[Maethirion]

Whereas I completely disagree with that - there is so much more to good choreography than that.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I enjoyed the movie, and you clearly didn't. Which doesn't make either of our interpretations necessarily wrong.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Spoiler: Oh my gosh! I couldn't believe it when...

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...this beat Alvin and the Chipmunks IV at the box office. I thought Star Wars was ****ed, for real.

[Scowling Dragon]

I agree that everybody is free to enjoy anything. But Il also stick to my guns and believe that this was a bad movie. Or at least bad as a Star Wars Sequel to the original trilogy.

[Philistine]

I can see the argument that a spoiled movie should still be enjoyable to be good. But a good twist or curve can leave quite an impression when first seen (or read, the same is true for books as well) and not wanting that feeling messed with is a perfectly reasonable mentality.

It really isn't, though. There isn't a lot of research on the subject yet, but what there is suggests that advance knowledge actually increases audience enjoyment. The utter terror of "spoilers" that's arisen in the Internet Age seems to be rooted in Romantic notions about innocence and purity; like most Romantic notions, it deserves to be greeted with scorn and derision.

But even apart from that, it certainly isn't perfectly reasonable for "spoiler"-phobes to demand that noone else be allowed to discuss a given work, simply to accommodate their lust for ignorance. Especially when they try to shut down discussion of stories that are already years or decades old, because "(they) haven't seen it yet and someday (they) might want to" - which is a thing that absolutely does happen.

************
WRT the new film, I will say that it met my expectations almost exactly. Of course those expectations were set when I heard that JJ Abrams was attached; as such they were actually pretty low. Or to put it another way: My days of thinking Abrams is wildly overrated are certainly coming to a middle.

[137beth]

I haven't seen it yet, but could someone explain what this "awakening" is? Is it some obnoxious revelation about the force a la midi-cloreans? Or is it something more benign?

[Dienekes]

I haven't seen it yet, but could someone explain what this "awakening" is? Is it some obnoxious revelation about the force a la midi-cloreans? Or is it something more benign?

Vague somewhat cool sounding mystery.

Spoiler

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Basically it was said by the new emperor possibly meaning the Jedi are returning. But again, it's vague.

[137beth]

Vague somewhat cool sounding mystery.

Spoiler

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Basically it was said by the new emperor possibly meaning the Jedi are returning. But again, it's vague.

Thanks. I'm guessing it could be

Spoiler: speculation

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Another "disturbance in the force" a la Sidious feeling the disturbance caused by Luke's existence in ESB.

[Olinser]

As someone who is trained in swordsmanship (though admittedly, I pretty much suck). If they're not wearing armor that actually protects them from the sword, any fight that lasts longer than a minute or two is not realistic, really 30 seconds is often long enough, and just about nothing in the prequels were realistic, at all. ...SNIP

Not quite swordsmanship but when we did knife combat training in the military we used to say:

2 guys get in a knife fight. 15 seconds later one goes to the hospital and one goes to the morgue.

Bladed weapon fights between trained, unarmored individuals actively trying to kill each other are short, fast and brutal, and that's without wielding near weightless weapons capable of removing limbs with a flick of the wrist.

[Logic]

My assessment? Inherently watchable, and some people may say this one is better than one of the Original Trilogy. I disagree with that assessment, but the reasons for my disagreements all spoil something.

Spoiler: Critiques

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So, yes, internet speculation was right on a particular point: Kylo Ren is "Jacen" Solo. You learn it fairly early on, and that doesn't ruin the movie. But it's particularly irritating to me, because I so strongly dislike the Expanded Universe character and nearly all of his stories. At the very least, Kylo may develop into his own, so there is that.

The biggest thing that upsets me about this movie is that they parallel A New Hope far too much. It's been said before by someone else (that I think should have spoiler-tagged it) that it is a remake. It almost is. It does everything it can to try and recapture the spark that made Star Wars magical in the first place, all while bringing very few new ideas to the table. The Universe, the setting, the characters, and the props all let me know this is Star Wars. I don't need almost the same plot as well.

It felt more like they were going through a checklist of what makes Star Wars than writing a script for a new movie altogether.

I also don't think the score was as epic as previous installments. But even the prequels set a pretty high bar in that regard.

Overall, I liked the movie, and my objections to it are already spelled out.

Some good points:

• This is the funniest Star Wars movie yet. And I don't mean "slapstick, appeals to the single digit age category." This is actual humor and comedy.
• The acting from everyone (save Carrie Fisher) is top notch.
• The dogfights are superb.
• The Lightsaber fights are done well.

[Professor Gnoll]

I make my bais against him clear NOW, but I believed he could do something good with Star Wars, but finding out just how much of a pathetic, ****ty, uninspired, "OMG Its Harrison Ford!", lowest common denominator, "Greatest Hits!", jingle keys in your face, "Ass the Movie", bull**** he made, has completely decided my opinion against him.

Swordplay isn't even the main point here. The main protagonist starts off the movie, acrobatic, athletic, trained in swordsmanship (Even if it isn't "Finished) and trained in the force.

Because JJ Abrahms has the talent of a 6 year old child and is a hack.

...Could you further explain this point of view? A genuine question, I'm interested to know. Is it purely the lack of originality you find galling, or other elements as well? In regards to Rey being overpowered, well, it's not like Luke did a whole lot of training before beating one of the most powerful Sith ever.

Spoiler: Oh my gosh! I couldn't believe it when...

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...this beat Alvin and the Chipmunks IV at the box office. I thought Star Wars was ****ed, for real.

Don't relax just yet- After people find out that J.J. Abrams is a hack with the talent of a six year old child, the audience will flock to the real big movie on the block.

[Olinser]

My assessment? Inherently watchable, and some people may say this one is better than one of the Original Trilogy. I disagree with that assessment, but the reasons for my disagreements all spoil something.

Spoiler: Critiques

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So, yes, internet speculation was right on a particular point: Kylo Ren is "Jacen" Solo. You learn it fairly early on, and that doesn't ruin the movie. But it's particularly irritating to me, because I so strongly dislike the Expanded Universe character and nearly all of his stories. At the very least, Kylo may develop into his own, so there is that.

The biggest thing that upsets me about this movie is that they parallel A New Hope far too much. It's been said before by someone else (that I think should have spoiler-tagged it) that it is a remake. It almost is. It does everything it can to try and recapture the spark that made Star Wars magical in the first place, all while bringing very few new ideas to the table. The Universe, the setting, the characters, and the props all let me know this is Star Wars. I don't need almost the same plot as well.

It felt more like they were going through a checklist of what makes Star Wars than writing a script for a new movie altogether.

I also don't think the score was as epic as previous installments. But even the prequels set a pretty high bar in that regard.

Overall, I liked the movie, and my objections to it are already spelled out.

Some good points:

• This is the funniest Star Wars movie yet. And I don't mean "slapstick, appeals to the single digit age category." This is actual humor and comedy.
• The acting from everyone (save Carrie Fisher) is top notch.
• The dogfights are superb.
• The Lightsaber fights are done well.

Really?

Spoiler: Regarding Ren

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I always found Jaina to be 10x worse from Vong forward, everything from her suddenly becoming the Mary Sue ZOMG AWESOME POWERFUL of the Jedi, to suddenly arbitrarily being a 'Goddess' to the Vong, to her stupid 'do I want Fel or not' romance that just wouldn't freaking end.

[Logic]

Really?

Spoiler: Regarding Ren

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I always found Jaina to be 10x worse from Vong forward, everything from her suddenly becoming the Mary Sue ZOMG AWESOME POWERFUL of the Jedi, to suddenly arbitrarily being a 'Goddess' to the Vong, to her stupid 'do I want Fel or not' romance that just wouldn't freaking end.

Spoiler:

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I missed most of the books following Vector Prime, and by that point I was already irritated at both Solo twins and their entire cast of characters. The Young Jedi Knights series was godawful, as was any story about the Dark Jedi Academy (which was half of that book series.)

While Vector Prime didn't break the EU for me, I was very disappointed in the character development in that, and the idea of the Vong being "invisible" to the force was just plain stupid from the get-go. The fact that it took the idiotic Solo twins, and not Luke, to figure out to sense the voids in the force to find them was obvious to me from day 1.

As for stupid romances, Jacen and Tenal Ka are far far far worse. When you're in love with someone whose catchphrase is "Ah. Aha!" you are a probably a waste of oxygen.

[Psyren]

My assessment? Inherently watchable, and some people may say this one is better than one of the Original Trilogy. I disagree with that assessment, but the reasons for my disagreements all spoil something.

Spoiler: Critiques

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So, yes, internet speculation was right on a particular point: Kylo Ren is "Jacen" Solo. You learn it fairly early on, and that doesn't ruin the movie. But it's particularly irritating to me, because I so strongly dislike the Expanded Universe character and nearly all of his stories. At the very least, Kylo may develop into his own, so there is that.

The biggest thing that upsets me about this movie is that they parallel A New Hope far too much. It's been said before by someone else (that I think should have spoiler-tagged it) that it is a remake. It almost is. It does everything it can to try and recapture the spark that made Star Wars magical in the first place, all while bringing very few new ideas to the table. The Universe, the setting, the characters, and the props all let me know this is Star Wars. I don't need almost the same plot as well.

It felt more like they were going through a checklist of what makes Star Wars than writing a script for a new movie altogether.

I also don't think the score was as epic as previous installments. But even the prequels set a pretty high bar in that regard.

Overall, I liked the movie, and my objections to it are already spelled out.

Some good points:

• This is the funniest Star Wars movie yet. And I don't mean "slapstick, appeals to the single digit age category." This is actual humor and comedy.
• The acting from everyone (save Carrie Fisher) is top notch.
• The dogfights are superb.
• The Lightsaber fights are done well.

Saw it this weekend and this post sums up my feelings pretty well also.

@ Kylo Ren:

Spoiler

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I've never read any of the EU so I have no idea how he measures up to Jacen Solo or anyone else he could have been, but taken on his own merits he's sorely lacking. My big complaint with SW7 is that there is no true villain worth rooting against/hating. Kylo is feckless and this "Snoke" guy came so far out of left field he may as well have been an AI with the Emperor's memories or something. Without a good villain the whole thing felt hollow. The humor and action were top-notch though and I'm a big fan of Finn.