Mythos Homebrew Discussion III: Grievous Imbalance Is A Feature

[Xefas]

Since we are discussing alternative methods for playing Mythos, thoughts on learning Exalted 2e?

I suggest looking at Mythender if you like the really high end stuff. It's free. Just make sure you have a lot of dice. It seemed kinda silly to me at first, but there definitely is this satisfying weight to, first, describing your dude leaping a few thousand miles into the sky, ripping a star off the firmament of heaven, and then suplexing it down through the atmosphere as a burning comet of death and wiping out the small nation surrounding your target, and then upending a Crown Royal bag with forty+ dice in it onto the table while shouting "EAT MY THUNDER, *****" - that you just don't get with a single d20 or four Fate dice.

I've considered writing a little supplement for playing the Lawgivers during their war with the Titans.

So I decided to do the Teramach thing:

Neat.

edit: Hopefully I'll have more to say once I get to reading this behemoth (almost 600 pages?) of a book.

[spwack]

Reading the review of Chuubo's... Hm, yep, yep, uh huh. Pastoral slice-of-life, you say?

This synergises horribly well with that 'teenage-inheritors-of-mythic-corpse-juice' that came up a whole ago. Was this what you were thinking of? Or was it using the system to play Mythos straight? I have no idea how the latter would turn out, but I'd love to watch!

[Amechra]

Reading the review of Chuubo's... Hm, yep, yep, uh huh. Pastoral slice-of-life, you say?

This synergises horribly well with that 'teenage-inheritors-of-mythic-corpse-juice' that came up a whole ago. Was this what you were thinking of? Or was it using the system to play Mythos straight? I have no idea how the latter would turn out, but I'd love to watch!

You can do both.

The game does this series just as well as this.

The best summation of the latter that I can think of is:

"Who's there?"
"It's the alien and I merged into the perfect being! Don't you feel comforted?"

"I'm software! And I'm corporeal. And I'm God."
"No, I'm God."
"Actually, God's God, dumbass."

[spwack]

Serial Experiment Lain... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time.

But seriously though, I'm broke and I haven't uh, "found" any rule sets of Chuubo. Any quick summaries of the core mechanics that might make this seem like a better fit for Mythos? I must say though, if one game can run Utena, Lain, Mythos and slice-of-life, that's got some serious clout behind it.

[spwack]

Double post but whatever. New Word for Godbound, useful for Teramach and Jagannatha mostly. The names of the gifts are Teramach Mythos, but who really cares. Hit things. Hit them hard. I won't be overlapping with Might and Endurance, because what Teramach isn't going to be taking both of those?

RAGE

[insert fluff about being really angry here]

Passive: A Godbound of the Word of Rage does not block or dodge the attacks of those that would see them dead. Rather, they merely endure the wounds inflicted upon them, inhumanly continuing their rampage even as they are slashed to ribbons or, especially at higher levels, perhaps their skin, hardened by the countless scars of past battles, merely shrugs aside the blades and arrows of those that come to slay them. They can modify their AC by their Strength, rather than their Dexterity if they so choose.

Lesser Gifts

Retribution Will Follow - Constant (Whenever a lesser enemy strikes the Godbound, they take Fray damage. Whenever a worthy foe strikes the Godbound, the Godbound may immediately make an attack, but only once per round)

Post Traumatic Brutality Roar - Constant (Whenever the Godbound specifically causes an enemy to make a Morale roll and fails, the enemy must make a Spirit save. On a failed save, worthy foes have their morale permanently reduced by 1d4, and lesser enemies by 3d4. If this would cause the to Morale score to fall below 2, the enemy is permanently reduced to a gibbering wreck.)

World-Breaker Grip - Action (Commit Effort when the Godbound is grappling an enemy. You may now use the enemy as a weapon dealing damage appropriate for their size. The enemy you are holding also takes half the damage you are dealing. If you would kill a "weapon" you are holding, each successive attack reduces the damage die size by 1)

[WIP, 3 remaining]

Greater Gifts

Humanity-Reaving Psychosis Echo - Constant (As Post Traumatic Brutality Roar. If you reduce a Morale score to below 2, the enemy may choose instead to increase their Morale score to 12 and become a Reaver under your... Command? Maybe. If you Commit Effort for the day, you may increase a single Morale check to 3d6, rather than 2d6)

Body of Samsara's Supernal Monster - Action (Commit Effort when you cannot see any allies. You increase in size by ten times, gain a +1 to your STR modifier and treat straight damage as normal damage. If you see an ally, you must make a Spirit save or lose the use of this Gift for 5 turns)

Untamed Apocalypse Shintai - Constant (You must always be moving towards the nearest living blah blah blah. You know how this goes. Whenever you kill an enemy, gain 1HP. This is capped at your level+STR modifier per round against lesser foes.)

That'll do for now I guess.

[Zale]

Serial Experiment Lain... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time.

But seriously though, I'm broke and I haven't uh, "found" any rule sets of Chuubo. Any quick summaries of the core mechanics that might make this seem like a better fit for Mythos? I must say though, if one game can run Utena, Lain, Mythos and slice-of-life, that's got some serious clout behind it.

Basically, Chuubo is a diceless system that uses a lot of heavily player defined skills and abilities. It's in many ways an outgrowth of Jenna Moran's Nobilis; has several nods to it. (Incidentally, those interested in that might glance at Jenna's Tumblr, where she's putting the Paetron funded arcs.)

Instead of having attributes or carefully defined skills like in D&D, the player defines a number of skills (Which can function anywhere between attributes to skill-sets to philosophies).

I like it because it's totally possible to make a character with Crushing My Enemies Beneath My Heels as a major character skill. Or someone with Love or Not Being There When Trouble Starts.

[Xefas]

Chuubo's does look pretty interesting, although having never played a diceless game before (that is to say, a randomized conflict resolution mechanicless game - I've had fun with cards and, in the case of Pilgrims of the Flying Temple, drawing tokens out of a bag), I do have some degree of apprehension. I like the XP systems, which remind me of The Shadow of Yesterday (/Marvel Heroic) style Keys. And while I've had trouble with character-specific open-ended skill definitions at the table before (which seems a staple in plenty of rules-light RPGs, which I'm not convinced Chuubo's is; I particularly liked it in the Romance Comedy/Drama game Blazing Rose), I've also had them work out, and I'm willing to give Chuubo's the benefit of the doubt and expect it to handle them well.

All in all, it's something I'd like to play. And I feel as if it's unique enough that I must reserve any judgment of substance until then.

[ThreadNecro5]

As its been a while since I have written some mythos, but have been collecting ideas for some, is there any ideas anyone would like to put forward/would like to see the Chrimatia do? might as well ask the people most likely to see the class, and thus most likely to play it.

[DracoDei]

Remind me what the Chrimatia is all about?

[Allnightmask]

The mythic hoarder if I remember correctly

[DracoDei]

Taking my cues from fiction:

Scrooge McDuck - Your treasure never counts as difficult terrain for you, and you can move between it as long as their is space for it to move around you... I'm is saying it in a way that isn't precise enough for mechanical rules, but what I'm going for is you should be able to swim in your money like he does. Of course, even in copper it couldn't enough space for it to usually matter, but at least you can stand on top of a mound of coins and not have them shift under your feet like they do under others.

Rarity -
1.) Detect Valuables instead of HD/spell level base it on an exponential scale of value, and have Appraise rolls to determine the types of each thing detected al la rolling Spellcraft with Detect Magic.

2.)This is more about "greed" than "hoarding", but... this would be the equivalent of "Rageless Teramach". You remove the core concept of the class, and yet have something functional. Rarity is very greedy, but also very generous.

Filthy Rich (Do Princesses Dream of Electric Sheep)

Spoiler

Show

Fly on a pile of your wealth with a certain volume and value, and shoot small valuable objects at your enemies: I'd have it be the normal damage type for the object, but make sure you can tag Magic, Alignments (ones you actually have), and materials (using gold, platinum, or gems to do silver's combat role should be especially trivial). Naturally the projectiles are never damaged by this and vanish back into your hoard after they hit.

Slightly more generic ideas:
1.) Animate your wealth to defend itself. See Astral Constructs for a starting place?

2.) The ability to look at someone and tell the net worth of everything they own (NOT just what they are carrying).

3.) "LoJack" to find things taken from you. Perhaps have it work like the Track feat, with Appraise rolls instead of Survival? Or maybe just Spot if that is on their class list?
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Not saying that any of these would make me want to play the class, but they would fit with the themes I guess?

[Durazno]

Maybe mythic hoarders could have an ability that transmutes their mineral wealth between different equivalent forms. It would seem like a simple bookkeeping/flavor trick until the mythic hoarder is facing an opponent in a constrained space, and they hold out a 25,000gp gem that explodes into a sea of copper pieces. The arena becomes a shifting, cramped nightmare for their opponent, but they can swim through with ease and strike at will.

I mean, that's super niche, of course, but it would still allow you to create patches of rough terrain and fill spaces if you need to, to say nothing of condensing chests full of coins into small adamantine ingots.

[Jakman217]

I'm not sure if someone already said a similar idea but...

Bleeding Wealth

Your body and your wealth start becoming one.

Any time you take damage you may lose wealth to negate it immediately. You pay [insert value here]/hp lost, and negate the damage immediately. This is a free action.

Potential Manifestations (in no particular order):

Body of Gold: You may spend [insert value here] to negate ability score damage.

Adamant resilience: You may spend [Insert value here] to negate ability score drain. requires Body of gold.

Diamonds are forever: You may spend [insert value here] to negate negative levels.

Purity of Silver: You may spend [insert values here] to negate status effects. [insert list for exact prices per ailment].


As an aside, please take a look at my mythic Leader, I've been needing some second oppinions of it and simply haven't gotten any. Any help would be nice. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...5#post20393725

[ThreadNecro5]

Thank you to all who have offered advice, as for what the class is, it is based around greed and manipulating and building their wealth besides otherwise owning things.

Taking my cues from fiction:

Scrooge McDuck - Your treasure never counts as difficult terrain for you, and you can move between it as long as their is space for it to move around you... I'm is saying it in a way that isn't precise enough for mechanical rules, but what I'm going for is you should be able to swim in your money like he does. Of course, even in copper it couldn't enough space for it to usually matter, but at least you can stand on top of a mound of coins and not have them shift under your feet like they do under others.?

Nice idea, I could expand it a bit to also effect other peoples valuables and prevent any environmental hazards inherent to traversing the treasure, that way you could swim in molten gold and the like (I've read of a GM using a lake of it before). Still a bit niche but more likely to see use. I was planning something involving bathing in gold anyway, so that covers a Manifestation.

1.) Detect Valuables instead of HD/spell level base it on an exponential scale of value, and have Appraise rolls to determine the types of each thing detected al la rolling Spellcraft with Detect Magic.?

I already have something like this, but the idea of rolling appraise to better determine what you detect is a good idea, will include that.

2.)This is more about "greed" than "hoarding", but... this would be the equivalent of "Rageless Teramach". You remove the core concept of the class, and yet have something functional. Rarity is very greedy, but also very generous.?

Filthy Rich (Do Princesses Dream of Electric Sheep)
Fly on a pile of your wealth with a certain volume and value, and shoot small valuable objects at your enemies: I'd have it be the normal damage type for the object, but make sure you can tag Magic, Alignments (ones you actually have), and materials (using gold, platinum, or gems to do silver's combat role should be especially trivial). Naturally the projectiles are never damaged by this and vanish back into your hoard after they hit.?

Interesting. This could build into my Shintai idea.

Slightly more generic ideas:
1.) Animate your wealth to defend itself. See Astral Constructs for a starting place??

I have something like this as well, turning people to gold and animating them (think of the Sapphire Dragon from Showlin Showdown). With the prior mythos idea you gave, I'm thinking on having that mythos give them a fly speed.

2.) The ability to look at someone and tell the net worth of everything they own (NOT just what they are carrying).?

Why did I not already think of this? simple enough excellency to include, and the fact the total value of a being possessions actually comes up in one mythos seems useful to include.

3.) "LoJack" to find things taken from you. Perhaps have it work like the Track feat, with Appraise rolls instead of Survival? Or maybe just Spot if that is on their class list?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'LoJack' but I can work this into the 'turn things to gold' mythos as it also curses those who steal from you, maybe include in a manifestation.

Durazno

Maybe mythic hoarders could have an ability that transmutes their mineral wealth between different equivalent forms. It would seem like a simple bookkeeping/flavor trick until the mythic hoarder is facing an opponent in a constrained space, and they hold out a 25,000gp gem that explodes into a sea of copper pieces. The arena becomes a shifting, cramped nightmare for their opponent, but they can swim through with ease and strike at will.

I mean, that's super niche, of course, but it would still allow you to create patches of rough terrain and fill spaces if you need to, to say nothing of condensing chests full of coins into small adamantine ingots.

Seems fun to play around with and simple to include, also synergises with one of DracoDei's ideas.

Jakman217

I'm not sure if someone already said a similar idea but...

Bleeding Wealth

Your body and your wealth start becoming one.

Any time you take damage you may lose wealth to negate it immediately. You pay [insert value here]/hp lost, and negate the damage immediately. This is a free action.

Potential Manifestations (in no particular order):

Body of Gold: You may spend [insert value here] to negate ability score damage.

Adamant resilience: You may spend [Insert value here] to negate ability score drain. requires Body of gold.

Diamonds are forever: You may spend [insert value here] to negate negative levels.

Purity of Silver: You may spend [insert values here] to negate status effects. [insert list for exact prices per ailment].

As an aside, please take a look at my mythic Leader, I've been needing some second opinions of it and simply haven't gotten any. Any help would be nice.

Strangely enough I pretty much already have this as a mythos. I like your way of fluffing it however so I will include that and possibly one of the manifestations. as for your class, I've been meaning to give that another look, I gave it a look a while back and decided to wait for it to develop a bit more. is its thread still ok for replying to or should I leave my opinions here?

[Jakman217]

Yes it should be good to comment on that thread. It's a bit old, but not that old. Plus I update it ever here and there to add or correct things.

[DracoDei]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'LoJack' but I can work this into the 'turn things to gold' mythos as it also curses those who steal from you, maybe include in a manifestation.

LoJack is a trademarked system (that probably has competitors that go by other names, although it may have been the first) that installs in a car. The name is in contrast to HIjack. Basically, if your car is stolen there is a way to activate a tracking beacon that either sends out the GPS coordinates continually, or is just a signal that the police can lock onto somehow.

...I may be getting some of that wrong, but if you need more precise information, you can Google it.

Rather than giving direction and distance (at least without a sequel Excellency/A specific manifestation/knowing Mhythos of a higher degree/whatever), I thought basing it on the Track skill would be a better place to start. More fun to play that way I think?

[Lanth Sor]

Still WIP just posting because work ended.

Spoiler: The Martyr

Show

The Martyr

The last eons of the Guardian bore heavy on its being. In the end it recognized it could not protect all from the ravages of the universe. No matter how may it saved there was some who would inevitably fall. It entered a deep brewed for many eons preforming its self appointed duty with a almost zealous fervor. Until it finally fell upon an idea to use its might to remove its charges from threat until the threat no longer existed. Gathering the poor beings that called it to existence in at its start it then purified them from existence in a type of stasis until the threat of titian law bringer war was over. This act took a visualization of a great light flowing throughout existence affecting all the lesser entities not destined to be or be apart of a Titan or Law Bringer. Though the Guardian was gone its legacy remained as a notion.

As the radiant expulsion of energies simultaneously removed a group form existence it left one behind to tell the tale, the Martyr. The Martyr was born to the universe the last remnant of the Guardians greatness. But tales would garner and lead to greater fables until a Titan was born. Calling to its heel sacrifice for the good of others. As the woes of the Titans grew the Martyr learned new ways to give. Wounds that bleed taken unto it's own. Fatigue that would weaken wiped away.

Standing in the fields of war the Martyr tended to the Titan, Unity. Transposition of notions, healing the vast cavities in Unity's form. The sun bore spear and light, looking down on his foe he balked at the Martyr's weak form. Though crowded with ideals none carried great strength. Though guided by stories of heroism, none bore arms. Though bathed in the radiant light of the Sun, the Martyr minded not, and tended to his charge. Curious but unconcerned with things that could be stamped out by lesser Law Bringer. The Sun made stride for its target.

The Martyr recognized the aggressive pose and lent some of its

[DracoDei]

Still WIP just posting because work ended.

Spoiler: The Martyr

Show

The Martyr

As the radiant expulsion of energies simultaneously removed a group form existence it left one behind to tell the tale, the Martyr. The Martyr was born to the universe the last remnant of the Guardians greatness. But tales would garner and lead to greater fables until a Titan was born. Calling to its heel sacrifice for the good of others. As the woes of the Titans grew the Martyr learned new ways to give. Wounds that bleed taken unto it's own. Fatigue that would weaken wiped away.


Standing in the fields of war the Martyr tended to the Titan, Unity. Transposition of notions, healing the vast cavities in Unity's form. The sun bore spear and light, looking down on his foe he balked at the Martyr's weak form. Though crowded with ideals none carried great strength. Though guided by stories of heroism, none bore arms. Though bathed in the radiant light of the Sun, the Martyr minded not, and tended to his charge. Curious but unconcerned with things that could be stamped out by lesser Law Bringer

1.) THANK YOU!

2.) Is the idea that The Martyr survived... something? "radiant expulsion of energies"? Was that when the world started to be stitched together, and The Martyr was still fully alive and whole at the time, but chose willingly to join the fate of its fallen brethren?

3.) Looks good so far?

A few notes on mechanical facts that might influence flavor:
1.) Most of the Mythos and Excellencies are preventative, rather than curative. You sacrifice your defense to grant that same defense to another. The curative stuff is actually static class features. Just keep that in mind when describing the scene with Sun, Unity, and Martyr.
2.) There IS a Mythos chain that that I THINK a lot of people are going to take because the instinct for most players is to have SOME sort of offense. It is based around AoOs... so keep that in mind flavor-wise. There is another single mythos for Disarms and Sunders... still anything we can do to make people consider more options is probably good, so having those sorts of things not feature prominently in the lore could be good.


Everyone:
One tricky question a GM may run into when starting a mid- to high- level campaign is how much extra XPs to give a starting Phileotheysia compared to his compatriots. Extra XPs you say? Yes. With the caveat that they can only be used for purchasing Phileotheysia Mythos, Manifestations, and Excellencies. These represent the XPs that would normally be lost to revivification by means such as Raise Dead and Ressurrection. As manifestations of the Martyr, Phileotheysia bounce back from death only more determined.

So given a starting ECL and perhaps a "lethality class" for the campaign, what would people suggest as my suggestion to the GM on that issue?

[Jakman217]

Still WIP just posting because work ended.
The Martyr [snip]

With the Martyr I kind of hit a bit of an uncomfortable feeling of overlap with the Agios, but with the right direction this should be nothing more than a substandard pet peeve that should be ignored.

Everyone:
One tricky question a GM may run into when starting a mid- to high- level campaign is how much extra XPs to give a starting Phileotheysia compared to his compatriots. Extra XPs you say? Yes. With the caveat that they can only be used for purchasing Phileotheysia Mythos, Manifestations, and Excellencies. These represent the XPs that would normally be lost to revivification by means such as Raise Dead and Ressurrection. As manifestations of the Martyr, Phileotheysia bounce back from death only more determined.

So given a starting ECL and perhaps a "lethality class" for the campaign, what would people suggest as my suggestion to the GM on that issue?

I find the extra xp a highly questionable proposition. I'd honestly like a tiny bit more detail before I begin digging my own grave here. When the extra xp is earned, and how often you expect the character to die ordinarily are probably good questions to ask here. They do highly alter how I can look at this.

Sidenote: open to everyone, please do take a look at my Mythic Leader. It is just short of done and just needs some extra input to finish it up. Please.

[DracoDei]

With the Martyr I kind of hit a bit of an uncomfortable feeling of overlap with the Agios, but with the right direction this should be nothing more than a substandard pet peeve that should be ignored.

I think I looked at the Agios at one time and thought that it wasn't too much overlap? I should maybe double-check...
Or did you just mean the fluff that Lanth Sor is so kindly writing for me?

I find the extra xp a highly questionable proposition. I'd honestly like a tiny bit more detail before I begin digging my own grave here. When the extra xp is earned, and how often you expect the character to die ordinarily are probably good questions to ask here. They do highly alter how I can look at this.

Err...
Yeah, apparently I wasn't very clear at all...
Okay, how to say this...
First off, the mechanic:
In addition, if the phileotheysia dies selflessly protecting their comrades or cause* and is returned to intelligent animation (most usually life) by a means that cause them to end up with a lower XP total than when they died, the lost XPs are instead retained as a separate pool that may only be used for purchasing mythos, manifestations, and excellencies of the phileotheysia class. Points from this pool may also be converted into mythos points at any time at a ratio of 1 XP to 5 mythos points, although the reverse is NOT possible.
*Most “standard” adventuring deaths will qualify, even getting killed by a trap that someone else set off by accident since the default assumption was that the Phileotheysia wouldn’t even have been around unless it was for the purposes described.

[/mechanic]

If you start playing a Phileotheysia at or before the party has access to Raise Dead*, and play them straight through, then the "extra XP" is never just handed to you by the GM and the GM doesn't need to make any decisions (unless he is going to invoke Rule 0).
Any level higher than that? The question then becomes: "How many times (if any) did this character probably die on his way to this level, and what levels were those deaths at on average (Not counting any levels that they had access to True Resurrection*)?" From that, you can figure out how much the second pool starts with during character creation. Or at least if you want to "play fair" with it rather than giving less than that.
*Or the equivalent from other systems than clerical magic that can return life to a character.

Sidenote: open to everyone, please do take a look at my Mythic Leader. It is just short of done and just needs some extra input to finish it up. Please.

I'll see what I can do, but I don't promise anything... I have BIG energy issues.

[Jakman217]

I think I looked at the Agios at one time and thought that it wasn't too much overlap? I should maybe double-check...
Or did you just mean the fluff that Lanth Sor is so kindly writing for me?

It may just be his style coming through for me, he did write the Agios as it were. Though a peek at the agios gives the vibe that it's much more focused on defense than martyrdom. So if the phileotheysia keeps a lot closer to martyr than guardian, it should be fine.

Err...
Yeah, apparently I wasn't very clear at all...
Okay, how to say this...
First off, the mechanic:
In addition, if the phileotheysia dies selflessly protecting their comrades or cause* and is returned to intelligent animation (most usually life) by a means that cause them to end up with a lower XP total than when they died, the lost XPs are instead retained as a separate pool that may only be used for purchasing mythos, manifestations, and excellencies of the phileotheysia class. Points from this pool may also be converted into mythos points at any time at a ratio of 1 XP to 5 mythos points, although the reverse is NOT possible.
*Most “standard” adventuring deaths will qualify, even getting killed by a trap that someone else set off by accident since the default assumption was that the Phileotheysia wouldn’t even have been around unless it was for the purposes described.

[/mechanic]

This looks fine to me, though I worry about the XP to MP being 1:5. (I understand the logic based off of 1xp:5gp) At that rate it takes 1.8 times the xp (1,000mp/5+250xp=450xp) to pay for a exceptional mythos and about 3 times the xp requirement to pay for a mythos above that (5,000mp/5+500xp=1,500xp and so on). If you think those ratio's are fair then there's not much to say. I'd worry that it would basically let someone at level 10 or higher to die once then buy most if not all the exceptional mythos, maybe even higher tier mythos as well, but I'd have to see more to prove or disprove this worry. While a class that can easily take a number of deaths and keep rolling is fine, rewarding suicide tactics worry me.

If you start playing a Phileotheysia at or before the party has access to Raise Dead*, and play them straight through, then the "extra XP" is never just handed to you by the GM and the GM doesn't need to make any decisions (unless he is going to invoke Rule 0).
Any level higher than that? The question then becomes: "How many times (if any) did this character probably die on his way to this level, and what levels were those deaths at on average (Not counting any levels that they had access to True Resurrection*)?" From that, you can figure out how much the second pool starts with during character creation. Or at least if you want to "play fair" with it rather than giving less than that.
*Or the equivalent from other systems than clerical magic that can return life to a character.

My first, boring suggestion is to not allow it, skipping the problem in the first place. My second suggestion would be to have the players denote what levels they 'died' at and calculate from there, since raw bonus xp only rarely keeps balance. 3rd would be to require that they work from the lowest level up, or more likely the highest level down, to keep them from abusing the xp to mp conversion at minimal level cost.

I'll see what I can do, but I don't promise anything... I have BIG energy issues.

It was meant for everyone, not just you, as I've been sitting on it for a while now with no responses and just really want some extra opinions on it.

[DracoDei]

It may just be his style coming through for me, he did write the Agios as it were. Though a peek at the agios gives the vibe that it's much more focused on defense than martyrdom. So if the phileotheysia keeps a lot closer to martyr than guardian, it should be fine.

Well it is "guardian via martyrdom" a lot, but if you take the Mythos that lets you spend a full round action to give an ally an extra standard action, or the one to take the weight of gravity in the stead of someone (starts small, then scales up to Fly at level 5+), those aren't exactly purely defensive buffs...

This looks fine to me, though I worry about the XP to MP being 1:5. (I understand the logic based off of 1xp:5gp) At that rate it takes 1.8 times the xp (1,000mp/5+250xp=450xp) to pay for a exceptional mythos and about 3 times the xp requirement to pay for a mythos above that (5,000mp/5+500xp=1,500xp and so on). If you think those ratio's are fair then there's not much to say. I'd worry that it would basically let someone at level 10 or higher to die once then buy most if not all the exceptional mythos,

Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.

Also, this may not matter so much but... you can sink a really large number of XPs+MPs into manifestations and excellencies... of course, Excellencies have a geometrically increasing cost, but with 31 to choose from many people will find some options to tempt them. As for mythos, one of the Exceptionals* has 6 basic manifestations and about 7 advanced, and others** have manifestations that can be purchased multiple times (to double->triple->quadruple the range for instance). It is actually at the higher level of mythos where things start getting tighter.
*Defensive Strike the one that beefs up your AoOs.
**Carry the Burden is one example (actually has three multi-purchasable I think, one for range, and one for increasing the number of targets, and one for reducing the amount of weight you actually take on compared to the weight of your targets and everything they are carrying).

If bonus XPs are not awarded for character generation, and probably even if they are, starting a level back from the rest of the party to buy up more options should be an option worth considering.

maybe even higher tier mythos as well, but I'd have to see more to prove or disprove this worry. While a class that can easily take a number of deaths and keep rolling is fine, rewarding suicide tactics worry me.

Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.

I don't really have a sense for considering what you are asking me to consider. I just wanted a Phileotheysia to not have to worry TOO much about being glutted with extra XPs in that pool, but not have the goods to generate the Mythos points to combine with that... especially RIGHT after being returned to life. For that "came back strong" feel.

What would you say to a strong suggestion that if they give the bonus XPs it should come with the rule "You can't convert XP from that pool into Mythos Points, and it is 'Use it or Lose it' on the XPs in the pool that you start the game with."?

My first, boring suggestion is to not allow it, skipping the problem in the first place.

And I'm sure a lot of GMs would take that route... it isn't what I would personally do, but I could definitely see it being a popular option.

My second suggestion would be to have the players denote what levels they 'died' at and calculate from there, since raw bonus xp only rarely keeps balance.

There would be little or no reason to have died that way... the entire point here is to make it so that a character who is generated at, say, level 15, approximately as powerful as one that was played all the way from 1 to 15. The second one probably died as many times as the rest of the party (well, possibly more, but that "more" would come out of the their "official posted starting XPs" that every character gets... which would be another, somewhat separate matter to cover), and thus by the time they all arrive at level 15, the Phileotheysia has, in effect, more XPs.

To put it another way, a character at high levels has EARNED more XPs than they HAVE... unless they didn't die at all, or they are a Phileotheysia (sorta...).

3rd would be to require that they work from the lowest level up, or more likely the highest level down, to keep them from abusing the xp to mp conversion at minimal level cost.

Converting XPs to GP (which, at the end of the day are what MP are) is generally considered a bad idea by optimizers I think? And at what level it happens only effects how many bonus XPs you gain. Assuming you died at higher levels would mean that you start at the same level as everyone else, but with more XPs in the secondary pool.

Perhaps if you HAVE to assume they died more, and thus generally start a level behind, but they DO get more XPs at game start than the rest of the party?

It was meant for everyone, not just you, as I've been sitting on it for a while now with no responses and just really want some extra opinions on it.

I knew that. I just know that this is the second time you have asked... maybe if you posted in that thread what your areas of greatest concern are?

[Jakman217]

Well [sinp]

I think it'll be fine. The current ideas are not so overlapping that I'd worry about it.

Also, this may not matter so much but... you can sink a really large number of XPs+MPs into manifestations and excellencies... of course, Excellencies have a geometrically increasing cost, but with 31 to choose from many people will find some options to tempt them. As for mythos, one of the Exceptionals* has 6 basic manifestations and about 7 advanced, and others** have manifestations that can be purchased multiple times (to double->triple->quadruple the range for instance). It is actually at the higher level of mythos where things start getting tighter.
*Defensive Strike the one that beefs up your AoOs.
**Carry the Burden is one example (actually has three multi-purchasable I think, one for range, and one for increasing the number of targets, and one for reducing the amount of weight you actually take on compared to the weight of your targets and everything they are carrying).

If bonus XPs are not awarded for character generation, and probably even if they are, starting a level back from the rest of the party to buy up more options should be an option worth considering.

I'm not against letting them trade levels for more options, since to an extent everyone has that ability, but they have a far more efficient, and far cheaper, way of doing it. Character Creation at higher levels pretty much takes the assumption that you never lost any money and (martyrs excluded) never died and runs with it. Hence unless you put a price on extra xp and backstory deaths, they effectively get richer from doing it and have a much easier time getting extra mythos.

Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.

I don't really have a sense for considering what you are asking me to consider. I just wanted a Phileotheysia to not have to worry TOO much about being glutted with extra XPs in that pool, but not have the goods to generate the Mythos points to combine with that... especially RIGHT after being returned to life. For that "came back strong" feel.

If you lost your gold every time you died I could easily understand where you're coming from, but 9 times out of 10, the rest of the party is going to pick over your corpse and grab your stuff. At worst you lose the value of being brought back from the dead. Plus, if your character is a martyr who's expected to die, then the likelyhood of them finishing the fight without you is much higher, making it more likely you'll get your stuff back. Plus if you make your death worth it, suddenly, paying the 5,000 gp to revive someone who doesn't lose xp is far more profitable.

What would you say to a strong suggestion that if they give the bonus XPs it should come with the rule "You can't convert XP from that pool into Mythos Points, and it is 'Use it or Lose it' on the XPs in the pool that you start the game with."?

I would say the use it or lose it with a no conversion would solve the problem. It does feel a bit like a punishment doing it that way though, but I can't think of a better way to keep it from being abused at creation. Plus, if you use this mechanism, they may as well not have backstory deaths and pay the ordinary way.

There would be little or no reason to have died that way... the entire point here is to make it so that a character who is generated at, say, level 15, approximately as powerful as one that was played all the way from 1 to 15. The second one probably died as many times as the rest of the party (well, possibly more, but that "more" would come out of the their "official posted starting XPs" that every character gets... which would be another, somewhat separate matter to cover), and thus by the time they all arrive at level 15, the Phileotheysia has, in effect, more XPs.

To put it another way, a character at high levels has EARNED more XPs than they HAVE... unless they didn't die at all, or they are a Phileotheysia (sorta...).

I think it's a bit odd to believe that a character who isn't a martyr would put a death into their backstory. Most people probably wouldn't put any deaths in their backstory. So all that really matters is how many deaths has the Phileotheysia had. The only exception to this rule I can think of are unusual players who often add deaths to their backstory, and a player joining mid-campaign, a massive mess if the group does not have always equal xp value (deaths included).

Converting XPs to GP (which, at the end of the day are what MP are) is generally considered a bad idea by optimizers I think? And at what level it happens only effects how many bonus XPs you gain. Assuming you died at higher levels would mean that you start at the same level as everyone else, but with more XPs in the secondary pool.

This is true when trying to buy magic items who's price increases exponentially, hence making xp->gp far inferior. But the rate for mythos features is linear, or for excellencies geometric. It may not be perfect, but the point at which converting stops being efficient is much further down the line.

Perhaps if you HAVE to assume they died more, and thus generally start a level behind, but they DO get more XPs at game start than the rest of the party?

Following up on the first part of this, assuming that your other party members have died at all is giving them more credit than they deserve. If everyone has the same xp in the party, then there's no reason for the phileothysia to get more. At best they are guaranteed to have either the highest xp or equivalent to the highest, and at that point it's up to the player as to when they died.

[Jakman217]

So, to make my questions for the Megaligeti more known.

Quick Summary. It's a mythic leader, based around 5 branches of roughly equal importance:

• Paragon, AKA I want to be a better on my own.
• Commander, Let's be a bard or more accurately a better marshal to my friends.
• Diplomat, Let's do stuff out of combat!
• Manipulator, "Honestly I wanted to play Zero from Code Geass" the branch. And
• Autocrat, Do What I Tell You!

Between these are balanced the abilities of the class. You can pick and chose from the branches to play what you want without demanding anything other than leading.

So, the first real question is asking for some help on the excellencies. Currently, it's kind of hit and miss with some like Bottomless Hunger for Pleasure, being among my more favorite abilities. However, I'm just having trouble thinking of more mythos. With 2 open excellencies in Commander, Diplomat, and Manipulator, as well as an Autocrat I need more ideas to fill out these abilities.
On top of that is my least favorite Excellencies is Ever Vigilant Watcher which is just a free feat and cha to initiative, super thin, rather boring and bland honestly.

Next is the bottom of the barrel hit with the exalted mythos, there is no Commander or Manipulator mythos and I'm just having trouble thinking of things for them.

Lastly is (what I think is) the general suck of the Diplomat line. It's feels like a bunch of thinly defined abilities that just don't really work for ordinary games. First with the contract abilities which are rather meh, then with the 'gambit game' later on. Throw on a better made, but rather derivative mythos that may as well be Fear-of-the-Divine Producing Stare part 1.5 (there's already a full part 2 for it).

So, to wrap up my long questions for you guys, I need only a few more ideas, a few rehashes and fixes to make things better and more interesting, and a general balance check to make sure I didn't over or under-power it.

The class in more detail is here and, again, any real comments or discussion should probably take place over there where it can be more focused.

[DracoDei]

I'm not against letting them trade levels for more options, since to an extent everyone has that ability, but they have a far more efficient, and far cheaper, way of doing it. Character Creation at higher levels pretty much takes the assumption that you never lost any money and (martyrs excluded) never died and runs with it.

[Vitrol NOT directed at you]What in the world of INSANITY is THIS utter garbage?[/vitrol]

Honest questions: Is it just some sort of simplifying assumption? If so, what does it simplify? Why SHOULDN'T, for instance, WBL represent what you have left after a reasonable number of revivifications*, replacement for sundered/disenchanted/stolen/looted from your body before it could be recovered/destroyed on natural 1 on a saving throw after it failed its save too?!
*With MAYBE some error margin for campaigns that vary significantly from the "default assumed lethality".

And how could one know that it DOESN'T include that sort of thing? I'm nearly certain that it is intended to include allowances for expended limited use items (potions, scrolls, wand and staff charges, etc).

As for XPs, other than this specific class (or other equally oddball and RARE cases), why would how many times you have died on your way to a given XP total even matter, and thus how could their be any meaningful pre-existing assumption on that particular question before now?

EDIT: I'm making a note in the GoogleDoc to scale or limit this class feature according to proportion of Phileotheysia levels... wouldn't want people dipping the class in super-high "revolving door afterlife" campaigns just for that... although the fact that you can only spend those XPs on Phileotheysia features is a big limiter... oh, and because of generic limits on Mythos classes that means that you need at least half your levels in Phileotheysia in order to be able to spend those XPs anyway. Is that enough to cover it?

[Jakman217]

[Vitrol NOT directed at you]What in the world of INSANITY is THIS utter garbage?[/vitrol]

Honest questions: Is it just some sort of simplifying assumption? If so, what does it simplify? Why SHOULDN'T, for instance, WBL represent what you have left after a reasonable number of revivifications*, replacement for sundered/disenchanted/stolen/looted from your body before it could be recovered/destroyed on natural 1 on a saving throw after it failed its save too?!
*With MAYBE some error margin for campaigns that vary significantly from the "default assumed lethality".

No vitrol taken personally.

And how could one know that it DOESN'T include that sort of thing? I'm nearly certain that it is intended to include allowances for expended limited use items (potions, scrolls, wand and staff charges, etc).
As for XPs, other than this specific class (or other equally oddball and RARE cases), why would how many times you have died on your way to a given XP total even matter, and thus how could their be any meaningful pre-existing assumption on that particular question before now?

EDIT: I'm making a note in the GoogleDoc to scale or limit this class feature according to proportion of Phileotheysia levels... wouldn't want people dipping the class in super-high "revolving door afterlife" campaigns just for that... although the fact that you can only spend those XPs on Phileotheysia features is a big limiter... oh, and because of generic limits on Mythos classes that means that you need at least half your levels in Phileotheysia in order to be able to spend those XPs anyway. Is that enough to cover it?

To be fair yes, it is a simplifying assumption. I've never seen anywhere that characters at higher levels are supposed to expect to have died in their backstory/pre-campaign adventuring days. And, maybe it's a bias from my sessions, but I believe in my years of playing that at most one player built a death into their backstory. On top of that the rules for making characters at higher levels don't include clauses for if you died in your backstory.

Creating a good way of including backstory deaths is highly complex and difficult. You have to take into account the level lost, the price paid to bring you back, if your particularly detailed any material wealth lost in the process of leveling. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'd say that unless you have express reason to benefit you probably will not include it.

The limit of phileotheysia abilities and stuff is perfectly fine, it makes sense and allowing it to buy other class abilities would have me literally up in arms against the idea.

To be fair, the way you have it written as it stands is fine. It's direct enough and, if not directly included in it, still has a price to it. It limits the penalty for death, which for a martyr makes sense and is not bad.

The problem of including allowed death in character creation for the class is that unless you dictate the cost to bring them back is included most people will assume that the being killed and brought back was effectively free, as per most backstory things. Thus they lose a level for more features and (effectively) more gold.

[DracoDei]

(Interspersed responses added in edits... beginning of potentially outdated thoughts will be noted, but some of those still apply... meh, more complicated than that now that I look at it again, but I have put enough sweat into writing this post... questions welcome if anyone needs to know what happened when...)

No vitrol taken personally.


To be fair yes, it is a simplifying assumption. I've never seen anywhere that characters at higher levels are supposed to expect to have died in their backstory/pre-campaign adventuring days.

Why would they bother mentioning something that doesn't make a difference, and is common sense after a little thought?

And, maybe it's a bias from my sessions, but I believe in my years of playing that at most one player built a death into their backstory. On top of that the rules for making characters at higher levels don't include clauses for if you died in your backstory.

What mechanical difference would it make usually?

Creating a good way of including backstory deaths is highly complex and difficult. You have to take into account the level lost, the price paid to bring you back, if your particularly detailed any material wealth lost in the process of leveling.

It would fall under "overhead"...
If a party contains 2 14th level characters, and one of them started out as a so poor he had to learn to steal just to survive, and the other one is a third son of a noble family who only went adventuring because he was bored out of his gourd with his life of luxury and decided to see what those spells he learned can actually DO...

Well, both of them are now walking around in magic items worth more than that noble-families net-worth, so what is the difference where they started from?

Similarly, if I want to say that my 200 year old elf ranger with Favored Enemy[Goblinoid], has been tirelessly hunting the foes of his race, and would be twice his level and much richer if he didn't regularly end up temporarily metaphysically inconvenienced... why should that change anything compared to the warlock who made a major pact with a visiting Balor yesterday and whose only experience with fighting prior to the start of the campaign was sparring as part of a town militia? (Needing to do interesting things to go up levels is for actual play. Backstory and NPCs have no such requirement in my book... but that might just be me.).

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'd say that unless you have express reason to benefit you probably will not include it.

I agree that you wouldn't tend to mention it, but if one sat down and thought about it...?

The limit of phileotheysia abilities and stuff is perfectly fine, it makes sense and allowing it to buy other class abilities would have me literally up in arms against the idea.

To be fair, the way you have it written as it stands is fine. It's direct enough and, if not directly included in it, still has a price to it. It limits the penalty for death, which for a martyr makes sense and is not bad.

The problem of including allowed death in character creation for the class is that unless you dictate the cost to bring them back is included most people will assume that the being killed and brought back was effectively free, as per most backstory things. Thus they lose a level for more features and (effectively) more gold.

Err... see, (as I think I may have mentioned before) I would assume that the starting XPs and ECLs for a high level party implicitly include all the characters having died various numbers of times to arrive at those numbers. If they don't put it into their backstories it is because it is too minor a detail to be worth mentioning. "Everybody dies. That is what revivification spells are for in the first place. Revolving door afterlives..." etc.

What I ideally was hoping to come up with at the end of all this was a chart that gave starting XP pools, sort of vaguely like the Artificer's Craft reserve, that you get when creating a character at a given level, but NOT when leveling up. There would be different columns for different degrees of lethality of the campaign as it is presumed to have played out prior to the actual start of game. The GM would pick said level of lethality (or take what I think will unfortunately be the popular option of ignoring the whole thing). So, no, you wouldn't start a level behind... [EDIT]I may need to nerf the class otherwise to make up for this (regardless of if the deaths happen during play or during backstory), but turning down some numbers shouldn't be that hard, right?[/EDIT]

Slightly older take on this:
I feel like we are talking in circles a bit...

...anyone else got anything to add?

...maybe I should just ask people in the non-homebrew parts of the boards what their experiences have been in actual play for number of levels gained between deaths and how they would describe the lethality of those campaigns. I can then make the conservative estimate that Phileotheysia don't die any more often than any other class. If I don't explain why I'm asking, I can probably avoid most of the problem...? I dunno...

[Jakman217]

Err... see, (as I think I may have mentioned before) I would assume that the starting XPs and ECLs for a high level party implicitly include all the characters having died various numbers of times to arrive at those numbers. If they don't put it into their backstories it is because it is too minor a detail to be worth mentioning. "Everybody dies. That is what revivification spells are for in the first place. Revolving door afterlives..." etc.

What I ideally was hoping to come up with at the end of all this was a chart that gave starting XP pools, sort of vaguely like the Artificer's Craft reserve, that you get when creating a character at a given level, but NOT when leveling up. There would be different columns for different degrees of lethality of the campaign as it is presumed to have played out prior to the actual start of game. The GM would pick said level of lethality (or take what I think will unfortunately be the popular option of ignoring the whole thing).

I feel like we are talking in circles a bit...

...anyone else got anything to add?
.

I get the feeling of talking in circles as well. BUT...

I find it hard for someone to say that death is ever a minor part of a campaign. Characters generally don't forget dying. Saying that a character who starts at level X has died at least Y times is, in my experience, making a much more massive assumption than assuming they didn't die up to that point. I've played and run many difficult games and 9/10 times they players will run before they can be killed. But then again, I prefer to play perma-death games because death is a big deal and you should rightly fear for your character's life.

Now that you mention the Artificer, my answer of begrudging cooperation is to base it off of the artificer. Though, the artificer gets away with it because it only gains more as it levels, can never gain more at any point other point, and it's expressly for enchanting, which does get extremely expensive, extremely fast.

[ThreadNecro5]

I just had the thought that the Chrimatia, due to its money is Exp thing, I should specify what happens to characters starting over 1st level.

So would wording like the following be suitable/balanced?

Spoiler

Show

A Chrimatia who begins at a higher level than 1st has starting GP equal to the amount of Exp they would otherwise start with which may not be spent in character creation, and may purchase things using the recommended starting GP a character of their level would receive but any unspent GP from this total is lost.

[Jakman217]

I just had the thought that the Chrimatia, due to its money is Exp thing, I should specify what happens to characters starting over 1st level.

So would wording like the following be suitable/balanced?

Spoiler

Show

A Chrimatia who begins at a higher level than 1st has starting GP equal to the amount of Exp they would otherwise start with which may not be spent in character creation, and may purchase things using the recommended starting GP a character of their level would receive but any unspent GP from this total is lost.

It's not perfect, but they should work. A word of warning is that after about level 6 the expected character wealth by that level is greater than the xp needed for the next level, meaning that at high enough levels they can just not buy stuff and get more levels.

An alternative idea I just had was that you could use the expected wealth per level as wealth needed per level, effectively swapping to xp needed per level and expected wealth. Since the xp between levels quickly becomes less than the gold needed between levels it makes things better balanced at higher starting levels while only slightly giving them an advantage at lower levels. Plus, since they get xp as extra gold it replaced their expected wealth per level.

Sidequestion, is the wealth of the chrimatia based on raw gp or total accumulated value (all currently existing items and wealth in the character's possession?

If you're not sure what I'm talking about you can see the xp chart here, and expected total wealth/level here.

edit: Or a better idea would be to combine expected wealth at level +1/2 xp per level. Would probably work better than just one or the other. Arguments can be made for other formula.