? PRC's that add spell casting???

[Jeargroth]

Ok the question is PRC's that add spell casting... Does it just increase Slots, and Level of caster or does it also add to the number of Spells you know as a Wizard.

If you level as pure Wizard 1-20 you gain 2 spells per level for free. Now I went into 3 PRC's all with + spell casting level. So the Question is if I do the PRC off of a Wizard Base class do I still get my 2 free spells per Level? or do I only get spell slots and Caster level?


Thanks in advance if anybody can help me and my game group clear this one up.

Jeargroth.

[Aleolus]

That is a matter of debate, owing to the fact that in the Wizard class it is not their spellcasting ability entry that talks about getting two free spells each level, but rather their spellbook ability entry. However, iirc, that ability says that you get two free spells you can add to your book each level, not each Wizard level, so you could argue that a Wizard 2 Fighter 1 would have as many spells as a Wizard 3, he just wouldn't have second level spells yet

[Beheld]

Technically it does not, because PrCs only advance spell slots, caster level, access to new spells, and spells known. And technically, Wizard spells in books are not spells known. Of course, this is all kind of pointless because WotC (and I believe Paizo too) are basically incapable of figuring out that fact. For example, Spontaneous Divination is a Wizard only ACF that allows you to spontaneously cast divination spells that you know. Since you are a Wizard, you know zero spells. Therefore the ACF takes your feat and does literally nothing . . .

So basically, the answer is that WotC are idiots, and you should just go ahead and decide that the rule means whatever you want. I personally recommend just letting it advance adding spells to spellbooks, because when everyone levels up and the Wizard has 6th level slots and no sixth level spells, but the Cleric and Druid do get 6th level spells, the Wizard's player is going to feel sad. Also you are just encouraging the player to look up secret page to make getting spells cheaper so that they don't feel bad getting spells, and use other stuff like that, which, while not necissarily bad for the game, if you are the type of person who didn't want to give them spells for free from level up because they PrCed, is not going to make you happy.

[Jeargroth]

I see in Master Specialist PRC, it says "at level 2 you get to Add another spell to your list from your chosen school in addition to the spells you normally gain at level."

If I am reading this right WOTC is assuming we are continuing with Spell books for PRC's when we Add a caster level.

I see the same thing on the SRD for Loremaster. Again talking about how they get the additional spells.

Geometer, talks specifically about which class you are applying it to for spells known and spells per day.

I believe I have found the nail in the coffin of the 2 free spells for PRC's that advance casting and its from the Player's Handbook. From the Glossary- Known Spells ... it states that a Known spell is a spell that has been learned and prepared. In the case of wizards it means having the spell in their spell book. So Wizards of all stripes get the free 2 spells per level.

Going to have to send this off to my GM... but its like 1 am local so probably not a good idea.

Night all Playgrounders.

Jeargroth

[bekeleven]

Technically it does not, because PrCs only advance spell slots, caster level, access to new spells, and spells known. And technically, Wizard spells in books are not spells known.

A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.

PHB Glossary.

[Chronos]

If the PrC says that you "gain spells known as if you had gained a level in your previous class", then a wizard with that PrC gains two spells in her book every level, because that's what she would get "as if she had gained a level" in wizard. This is quite clear from the rules, if you actually read them.

Some PrCs don't actually say that, though. By the RAW, those PrCs wouldn't give you your two spells in your spellbook. But those cases are almost certainly typoes, because while they're mildly inconvenient for wizards, that would absolutely cripple a sorcerer taking such a class.

[nyjastul69]

If the PrC says that you "gain spells known as if you had gained a level in your previous class", then a wizard with that PrC gains two spells in her book every level, because that's what she would get "as if she had gained a level" in wizard. This is quite clear from the rules, if you actually read them.

Some PrCs don't actually say that, though. By the RAW, those PrCs wouldn't give you your two spells in your spellbook. But those cases are almost certainly typoes, because while they're mildly inconvenient for wizards, that would absolutely cripple a sorcerer taking such a class.

It's not so much a typo as it is designers not understanding the rules. It along the same lines of assuming that being flatfooted allows SA. Some of the designers think this a thing.

[daryen]

Since someone mentioned Pathfinder, they did explicitly address this issue:

Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?

No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to 3.5.

[Telonius]

It's not so much a typo as it is designers not understanding the rules. It along the same lines of assuming that being flatfooted allows SA. Some of the designers think this a thing.

It generally does. Unless the target is otherwise immune to sneak attacks (because of type, from a class feature like Uncanny Dodge, or some magical effect like Heavy Fortification armor), being flatfooted does mean that you're vulnerable to sneak attack. Sneak attack applies whenever the target would be denied their Dex to AC. The flatfooted condition means that you're denied Dex to AC.

[Chronos]

The flatfooted condition usually denies you dex to AC, but it doesn't always (such as for a character with Uncanny Dodge), and it also has other effects (like preventing immediate actions). And there are other circumstances that deny you dex to AC but don't render you flatfooted. So, yes, it is a mistake to conflate "flatfooted" with "denied dex to AC".

[DarkSoul]

The Player's Handbook makes it pretty clear that "spells known" counts all the spells in a wizard's spellbook, versus what a sorcerer's spells known are. By that logic I agree with Chronos.