have any of you killed a pc because

[goto124]

If desecration of the corpse is a big issue with why undead are evil, how do deathless, flesh golems, blood oozes, and other animate but not undead and not evil creatures get around the desecration of corpses making them evil?

If desecration is evil, creating the golems from corpses would be an evil act (Evil if some god ruled that Desecration is Evil). The golem itself would not be evil.

I suspect zombies are Evil so that they're affected by Smite Evil.

Desecration may be icky, but should it be the heights of evil it's often made out to be?

[Marlowe]

I don't wish to continue this necromancer stuff any further. BUT it's odd everyone here is assuming using Humanoid skeletons as necromancy fodder. This odd obsession is the only reason any of this "desecration" rubbish has any relevance at all.

As every necromancer smart enough to get his high collar of doom on straight has already noticed, humanoids make frickin' terrible zombies and skeletons. They default to 1 hit dice and lose all their skills and whatever they got from class features. They also get turned, counter-commanded, and dusted at the drop of a hostile cleric. What the discerning necromancer wants are BIG creature. With lots of hit dice, natural attacks and/or special movement options. Bears, Dragons, Elephants. Hell, cows. You're getting more money for your black onyx buying 8gp mules, killing them and raising them as Skelemules than you are raising human skeletons.

And anyone who wants to talk about "desecration" of the corpse of a cow or mule or whatever and who ISN't a vegetarian had better have a heartfelt conversation with his last meal.

[Blackhawk748]

I don't wish to continue this necromancer stuff any further. BUT it's odd everyone here is assuming using Humanoid skeletons as necromancy fodder. This odd obsession is the only reason any of this "desecration" rubbish has any relevance at all.

As every necromancer smart enough to get his high collar of doom on straight has already noticed, humanoids make frickin' terrible zombies and skeletons. They default to 1 hit dice and lose all their skills and whatever they got from class features. They also get turned, counter-commanded, and dusted at the drop of a hostile cleric. What the discerning necromancer wants are BIG creature. With lots of hit dice, natural attacks and/or special movement options. Bears, Dragons, Elephants. Hell, cows. You're getting more money for your black onyx buying 8gp mules, killing them and raising them as Skelemules than you are raising human skeletons.

And anyone who wants to talk about "desecration" of the corpse of a cow or mule or whatever and who ISN't a vegetarian had better have a heartfelt conversation with his last meal.

This is what another Necromancer of mine did, he animated Wolves as his first minions, then upgraded to Trolls, and finally ended up riding around on a Zombie Hydra. That DM learned real quick not to throw anything at me that he didnt want coming back.

[goto124]

Or... have every corpse turn into dust?

[Blackhawk748]

Or... have every corpse turn into dust?

Im sure there is something i could create with corpse dust.

[Marlowe]

Or... have every corpse turn into dust?

Oh wonderful. Think what that would do to the ecosystem. Every single carnivour extinct within a week.

[goto124]

It's not like fantasy worlds have realistic ecosystems

[Marlowe]

Sure. Let's have the next campaign on the moon. And make all the enemies sentient rock-creatures and ice elementals. And who cares about this "oxygen" stuff anyway? In fact, let's do the whole campaign as a interplanetery romp where the PCs go from world to world by wishing really hard.

Or, you could try NOT destroy any pretense of versimilitude just as a moronic and petty way to screw over a player with a perfectly sound and rules-legal character.

[Esprit15]

Or... have every corpse turn into dust?

Regrow every speck of dust back into a full bone, then create the world's largest boneyard.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly if they all turned to dust i would just make Dustform Creatures out of them. Ya they aint undead, but i still get my minions, and they are nasier than just letting me have my Skeletons.

Though the Worlds Largest Boneyard does sound like fun.

[The Fury]

Sure. Let's have the next campaign on the moon. And make all the enemies sentient rock-creatures and ice elementals. And who cares about this "oxygen" stuff anyway? In fact, let's do the whole campaign as a interplanetery romp where the PCs go from world to world by wishing really hard.

I played that campaign. The party's Necromancer kept murdering my characters and reanimating them as skeletons in space suits. He kept them in a bag of holding. That way whenever we planet-hopped by wishing super-hard, the undead monstrosities could come with us. After a while the DM pulled me aside and said, "The Fury, please stop getting murdered. Your characters just get turned into animated skeletons and it's ruining the campaign."

I talked it over with the Necromancer's player right as he was about to murder my latest character. I suggested murdering someone else, but he replied, "Sorry, The Fury. Everyone else takes it so personally when I kill their characters and reanimate them. You're the only one that has a sense of humor about it."

I hated to admit it, but he was right. My character was murdered and reanimated once again, the DM kicked me out of the campaign, and we were all richer for the experience.

[Segev]

I played that campaign. The party's Necromancer kept murdering my characters and reanimating them as skeletons in space suits. He kept them in a bag of holding. That way whenever we planet-hopped by wishing super-hard, the undead monstrosities could come with us. After a while the DM pulled me aside and said, "The Fury, please stop getting murdered. Your characters just get turned into animated skeletons and it's ruining the campaign."

I talked it over with the Necromancer's player right as he was about to murder my latest character. I suggested murdering someone else, but he replied, "Sorry, The Fury. Everyone else takes it so personally when I kill their characters and reanimate them. You're the only one that has a sense of humor about it."

I hated to admit it, but he was right. My character was murdered and reanimated once again, the DM kicked me out of the campaign, and we were all richer for the experience.

...why was it YOUR fault, and not the player of the Necromancer's? Unless I'm missing some sarcasm or other context, here.

[Apricot]

I'm pretty sure that post was a joke. I mean, I laughed at it.

[Marlowe]

Obviously it was his fault for not providing an infinite supply of space-suits, thus causing a constant drain on party resources as the necromancer struggled to properly equip his space-skelly army of past Furies.

Why the Legion Exfuriouso needed spacesuits at all is uncertain, but we must presume it was a necessary part of the necromancer's character concept, a substantially less pernicious one than the concept of "I get to attack and sabotage other party members over disputes of doctrine and methodology and no-one's allowed to do anything about it because I'm Good" for which this thread has turned into an apologia, and we must respect it.

Yes, I know "Exfuriouso" means more "Out of madness" than "formerly furious". I choose to use words to mean whatever I want them to mean right now without making any commitment that they'll mean the same thing a second time because I'm an anonymous guy on the internet, and I don't have to be consistent.

[GAAD]

Are you JOKING? Everyone always has to be totally consistent at all times!

Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly.

[Eugoraton Feiht]

Here:

A LE cleric of Nerull (death, murder, deception) and a LG Paladin of Heroneous (valor, justice, honor).

And it boiled down to 'we disagreed on several points...'

It would have gone like this if I was the Paladin:

Nerull worshipper: 'I am a cleric of Nerull and I practice necro..'
Paladin: 'Lay down your arms you foul monster; you're under lawful arrest for necromancy and worshipping a forbidden god'

Hmm, that would have been interesting for him to try that seeing as how it wasn't illegal and Nerull was not a forbidden god. The entire time I traveled with them I broke no laws in the three kingdoms we had entered. Their fault for trespassing in evil lands but seeing as I was with them and had committed no crime in other lands and was assisting them with overthrowing a warlord he saw no reason to clap me in irons and haul me away.

Not that it would have done much good dragging me to lawful lands as he still would have had no lawful right to do so.

[Malifice]

Hmm, that would have been interesting for him to try that seeing as how it wasn't illegal and Nerull was not a forbidden god.

You werent in Greyhawk then, and Nerull is a Greyhawk deity.

Wiki has this to say:

Nerull's temples are hidden and usually subterranean except in the most evil lands, as befits the god of darkness and the underworld. Nerull's clerics are feared throughout the lands as cold, calculating murderers. Nerull's faithful believe they will be rewarded for acts of murder, for every living thing is an abomination in the eyes of the Reaper. Nerull is the patron deity of those who seek the greatest evil for their own enjoyment or gain...

The Free city expressly makes it a crime to worship him:

The worship of evil deities and fiends is forbidden, and such cults, though they may have followers, do not have a public presence.

Im not sure what realms in the Flaness dont outlaw Nerulls worship. The evil reams of the Scarlet brotherhood outlaw him (as he is not a Suel God) and he is also outlawed to the north in Iuzs realm (Only Iuz worship is lawful).

I cant think of a place with any kind of sane ruler that would be OK with a cult of murderous evil psychopaths operating openly or lawfully. Even putting that aside, Heroneous and Nerull are mortal enemies. Its akin to a pious christian crusader in the middle ages associating with an open devil worshipper.

Maybe your campaign differed for some reason.

The entire time I traveled with them I broke no laws in the three kingdoms we had entered.

I find it unusual to say the least that necromancy wasnt unlawful in no fewer than three nations (messing with dead people/ desecrating the dead is unlawful in virtually every earth culture and nation) and I also find it unusual that all three nations did not condemn woship of Nerul itself to be a (capital) crime.

Their fault for trespassing in evil lands but seeing as I was with them and had committed no crime in other lands and was assisting them with overthrowing a warlord he saw no reason to clap me in irons and haul me away.

I would have refused to ally with you. Unless you refrained from necromancy and agreed to reform.

You were literally an unrepentant evil monster (as a cleric of Nerull your aura would have stuck out like a beacon) who has almost certainly engaged in murder (as your god commands), ritual sacrifice and the desecration of the dead in addition to other foul acts required by your God for acceptance into the clergy.

I assume this was 3.5 and remember Paladins have this special ruleunder 'Associates':

While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.


In Pathfinder this is lfted a little to allow temporary alleigances to fight a greater evil. Even still, thats not the recipie for a long campaign featuring both PC's even if they were absolutely forced to work together.

For the record, I wouldnt willingly ally with a cleric of Nerull under pretty much any circumstances. He's the god of trickery, death and murder for gods sake. What kind of a murderous psychopath chooses that person as a god? And what kind of a lunatic chooses to hang around with such a monster, let alone place his life in such a monsters hands? Would YOU trust such a person?

It would be akin to choosing to go camping with Charles Manson or Ted Bundy.

[Esprit15]

Just because you don't have a game where it happens doesn't make it not true. Perhaps his DM made Nerull less mustache twirling evil than the writers made him out to be.

Also, he's free to not associate, but killing him simply for having an evil alignment will not show favorably on him, unless he also kills 1/3 of the commoners he sees and scans every shopkeeper to make sure he isn't funding an Evil person's livelihood. Sure, he could not scan everyone, but at that point he is being willfully ignorant.

Or, we could all agree that some of the RP requirements for Paladins are silly and ignore them. Or the Paladin could be trying to redeem the Necromancer, in which case association would be necessary.

And if he was a friend, an ally who I have known for years, with whom I am respectful and they are in turn, yes. Evil can have friends.

[Malifice]

Just because you don't have a game where it happens doesn't make it not true. Perhaps his DM made Nerull less mustache twirling evil than the writers made him out to be.

Oh I agree. I only have the information of 'I was a cleric of Nerull and he was a Paladin of Heroneous' so I was going on it being a Greyhawk campaign, and that the deities are as presented in that context. Heroneous = LG god of valor, honor and justice, Nerull = NE god of murder, trickery and death.

Like I said, maybe his campaign differed.

Also, he's free to not associate, but killing him simply for having an evil alignment will not show favorably on him, unless he also kills 1/3 of the commoners he sees and scans every shopkeeper to make sure he isn't funding an Evil person's livelihood. Sure, he could not scan everyone, but at that point he is being willfully ignorant.

At no stage did I say the Paladin should have killed him for simply having an evil alignment. That makes the Paladin approach the lands of evil in my books.

The Paladin should seek to redeem him, or have nothing to do with him (only using force in self defence or the defence of others). Apparently this was an evil nation, and evil peeps and clerics were everywhere.

Or, we could all agree that some of the RP requirements for Paladins are silly and ignore them. Or the Paladin could be trying to redeem the Necromancer, in which case association would be necessary.

Yeah and I expressly ruled in the possibility of redemption. A soul saved adds to the ranks of heaven. An evil creature killed strengthens the forces of hell.

And if he was a friend, an ally who I have known for years, with whom I am respectful and they are in turn, yes. Evil can have friends.

Dude, if you found out your friend was a serial killer who defiled corpses and woshipped devils, and you stay friends with him, more luck to you. I cant think of too many people who would.

I certainly cant imagine myself ever willingly hanging around with someone who worshipps a god that advocates (mandates even) the practice of murder, treachery, betrayal and then animating the dead person as a zombie.

I say this despite being neither a particularly good or lawful person myself. I rate my alignment IRL as around the CN area. According to the online DnD alignment test, Im CE.



I have devoutly religious friends that get on our nerves from time to time. Now try and reimagine that person as an active priest and devotee of a god of murder, treachery and death. Actually imagine it.

There is a reason those dudes practice in secret. And its not just because they engage in human sacrifice and so forth. Its because no sane person would ever assosicate with them or could ever conceivably trust them. And those that did would almost certainly wind up dead.

[Eugoraton Feiht]

If I recall correctly Nerull was Neutral Evil but was more seen as inevitable rather than actively evil. After all, death comes for us all no? There was no desecration or active murder though. At least, I didn't view what I was using the undead for as desecration.

As for the paladin, he tried redeeming me the whole way. Had deep discussions about the nature of good and evil and whatnot. Said that he didn't understand how someone so polite, thoughtful, and good-mannered was so thoroughly evil.

As for the three nations, they received some quest through the Paladin's Church to come North and vanquish an evil being before they could rise to power. They figured it was the local warlord that was trying to take over a kingdom. I agreed to join them citing that my god would be pleased by my conduct nonetheless.



To be fair he (the paladin) and the rest of the party did try to kill me several times later on but that was much later after we(being myself and the party) realized I was the evil being they had been sent to kill, not the warlord. Was fun figuring that out myself as well.

[Apricot]

Malifice, I'm afraid to say that I and many others would much rather be friends with one of those countless types of individuals that you deem evil over someone like yourself. The reason is, just because someone's cruel, malicious, callous, or has any of those other common afflictions doesn't mean they can't be kind, caring, or loyal in their own ways. In particular, it's possible for them to be stable and reliable (though of course not all are). This means that they can be trusted, because you have reasonable assurance that they won't do anything unpredictable and uncalled for. Someone with the morality which you exhibit, which I would much rather call moralism, is instead a ticking time bomb. You see, the problem about having harsh and restrictive moral views that automatically elevate any perceived wrongdoing to the level of being a serial killer is that it's all but impossible to predict what seemingly innocuous action is going to set that moralistic individual off. Even the smallest evil could turn into an unforgivable crime, and because the moralistic individual is assured in their perfect grasp of right, wrong, and the punishments the latter entails, that crime could be treated to judge, jury, and executioner in a matter of seconds. That's honestly terrifying. If a character of mine was ever in a party with someone like what I'm describing, they'd likely either turn that moralistic individual in to the authorities or kill them the first chance they got, because there can't ever be any safe and secure companionship with someone who deeply and truly believes they are right.

I don't know if any of this gets across, but seriously, man, the kind of moral righteousness you're radiating is scarier than any neutral necromancer who just doesn't see corpses as having any real link to the bodies they once housed.

[CantigThimble]

I'm not sure why him trying to kill you was unreasonable at all. He was straight up given a quest to destroy you by an order of paladins before you came to power. Party dynamics be damned, if he DIDN'T try to kill you then he would be playing his character wrong. This seems more the DM's doing than either of yours now, would he have been trying to kill you if there was some greater threat the two of you were combating together? It sounds like he wasn't before you figured out the plot and he wouldn't if there had been a different quest going on.

[Eugoraton Feiht]

I'm not sure why him trying to kill you was unreasonable at all. He was straight up given a quest to destroy you by an order of paladins before you came to power. Party dynamics be damned, if he DIDN'T try to kill you then he would be playing his character wrong. This seems more the DM's doing than either of yours now, would he have been trying to kill you if there was some greater threat the two of you were combating together? It sounds like he wasn't before you figured out the plot and he wouldn't if there had been a different quest going on.

Because when he initially ran into me I wasn't doing anything bad other than existing. He had no idea I was who he was sent to kill as I was a simple cleric going around and making sure that people who had died were being cleaned up to prevent a small plague. I was raising the dead and then having them take their meat off somewhere else where I had a fire going. They were investigating the fire. I had no
idea I was meant to be the End Boss of the DM's campaign.

The warlord was actively trying to destabilize the region and through it into open warfare. He was also a brutal tactician that let his army of bandits run amok and do horrible acts. Paladin compared the two of us and decided the Warlord was the force he was sent to kill. I legit had no idea the DM meant for me to be the BBG until after we killed the warlord.

[CantigThimble]

Because when he initially ran into me I wasn't doing anything bad other than existing. He had no idea I was who he was sent to kill as I was a simple cleric going around and making sure that people who had died were being cleaned up to prevent a small plague. I was raising the dead and then having them take their meat off somewhere else where I had a fire going. They were investigating the fire. I had no
idea I was meant to be the End Boss of the DM's campaign.

The warlord was actively trying to destabilize the region and through it into open warfare. He was also a brutal tactician that let his army of bandits run amok and do horrible acts. Paladin compared the two of us and decided the Warlord was the force he was sent to kill. I legit had no idea the DM meant for me to be the BBG until after we killed the warlord.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you said earlier:

To be fair he (the paladin) and the rest of the party did try to kill me several times later on but that was much later after we(being myself and the party) realized I was the evil being they had been sent to kill, not the warlord. Was fun figuring that out myself as well.

Aren't you saying he only tried to kill you after the plot was revealed? Or were their attacks earlier?

[Eugoraton Feiht]

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you said earlier:



Aren't you saying he only tried to kill you after the plot was revealed? Or were their attacks earlier?

No, let me explain myself.

I was a cleric of Nerull in a Far northern nation, somewhat barbarian-esque. His party consisted of himself and two others(Paladin, Rogue, and Wizard). They came to the North on a quest to kill a great evil before they rose to power. They ran into me raising the dead and using them to burn their remains to stop the spread of a plague. Paladin saw me using undead and threatened me, but did not try to kill me. I explained what I was doing and also let them know about the Warlord that was running about everywhere. Paladin guy tells me that he is on a holy quest, blah blah, and I volunteer to help because the warlord is a murderhobo...

Never crossed any of our minds that the Evil was apparently myself.

So we worked together and got to the point where we were fighting the warlord. We had gotten separated by a large group and some traps and the rogue and I chased the warlord into a warehouse of sorts.

Now key note, Warlord was always seen wearing this torc on his head claiming he was the one true king of the north. Rogue and myself put him down, rather surprisingly easily, and start searching him thinking he was a doppelganger or something. Dm had me roll a percentage chance and I did. Told me my hand brushed the Torc and then handed me a note.

Note was basically the torc telling me about a way to power, a chance at immortality, a way I could take over the nations of the world on my own, I just had to help it reclaim it's keep. Rogue sees me freeze up and starts talking to me, asking me what's wrong, what's happening, etc. Turned to look at him and said I'm casting a spell. Hit him with 3.0 Harm which dropped him to 1 hitpoint. Promptly won the surprise round as he's freaking out and knocked him unconscious, making sure he wouldn't die.

I make my escape, led by this torc that's showing me a way to what we believed to be a large glacier, was actually a liches keep.

So long story short, I became a lich, took over a giant keep, and promptly started raising a giant army of undead. Paladin and the group realized it would come to a fight between us. They thought they had destroyed my phylactery so they fought to the top of my keep to kill me. Managed to kill the wizard and then the rogue. Came to the Paladin and myself fighting. Cue dramatic, You didn't have to do this speech. Almost took me down to single digits, which would have left him free to search the keep. Cast Earthquake and brought down the entire keep. Silence at the table. Dm then states that a couple weeks later a bony fist bursts from the rubble and then goes into detail into how I rebuilt and then started enslaving the entire Northern kingdoms and wiped out everyone. Good hard fought session but everyone left happy. We had plans to continue on with the DM taking over my character and a child/descendant of my cleric would come forth to join a party to take my Cleric down but sadly we moved and fell out of touch.

[CantigThimble]

Okay! Sorry I got you confused with the OTHER story about a necromancer and a paladin in the same party who had trouble getting along and wound up fighting eachother that was debated earlier in the thread!

Spoiler

Show

Had a game once where I played a Necromancer. No matter how hard I tried to show our Cleric that I was using them for good purposes, he always would attack me or my minions (even ones i turned during battle). Finally, I got tired of it and just lagged behind the group and pitched in where I could since I knew staying in the group was going to cause issues. I had talked to the guy out of game and said if I could come up with proof that they were used for good he would be ok with it, yet the numerous examples I gave were never good enough. By the time we got to the final boss (this campaign had lots of undead) I was sick and tired of the shenanigans. Everyone else had finally accepted that I was doing good except him. So I made came to the final conclusion of what needed to e done. I pulled the DM off to the side and explained what I was about to do. When we went in to the fight, I just sat out of the fight until the guy was being attacked by the undead in the room. I immediately started casting and eventually the guy died. He couldn't figure out why the undead wouldn't die, but then neither could the rest of the group. I had simply told the GM that the next big fight we had, I was going to heal the undead attacking the cleric with priority going to the last one he hit. Once the fight started, I did my thing telling the DM how much "damage" I did. When the other people asked what I was doing I gave a description of the spell and the DM had them make their spot checks. One guy new exactly what was going on from the description, but since he failed the roll he couldn't say a word, but he was laughing the whole time. They finally figured out what happened after the fight, but by that time my character was long gone and the campaign was over. I don't like doing pvp, but I was tired of his crap after about 5 weeks of playing 6 hours a week and not getting anywhere despite doing what he said I needed to for him to trust me.

That's the only time I killed another player on purpose. I've done things by accident that have resulted in people being seriously maimed, but usually the only person I get killed is myself. Like playing a character witha -1 str bonus and no skills in swim. The campaign started on a boat for two weeks in game; you can figure out what happened there.

[Eugoraton Feiht]

Okay! Sorry I got you confused with the OTHER story about a necromancer and a paladin in the same party who had trouble getting along and wound up fighting eachother that was debated earlier in the thread!

Ah I see. No problem. Nope my Paladin wasn't quite as Lawful Stupid.

[Malifice]

Malifice, I'm afraid to say that I and many others would much rather be friends with one of those countless types of individuals that you deem evil over someone like yourself.

You would be friends with a demon worshipping madman who literally is a member of a church who have the dogma that can be boiled down to 'betray and murder for power'?

You know how many RW religions have it as a sin to murder and lie, and a virtue to help others and show charity? His religion has it the other way around. And he's not just a lay member who can afford to ignore these rules when convenient - he is literally a practicing member of the clergy.

Think about this for a second. He has pledged his soul (and committed his life) to the teachings of a madman who urges him to betray and murder when convenient for him. To desecrate corpses. And worse.

He might seem like a 'nice guy' on the surface, but he is (objectively speaking) NOT. He is literally evil. He glows evil like a beacon when you use magic to observe his morality. He has engaged in unspeakable practices willingly. Most serial killers probably seem like charming nice guys on the surface; but I dare you to go camping with one!

He is literally an evil monster that will betray you at first instance. Look:

Note was basically the torc telling me about a way to power, a chance at immortality, a way I could take over the nations of the world on my own, I just had to help it reclaim it's keep. Rogue sees me freeze up and starts talking to me, asking me what's wrong, what's happening, etc. Turned to look at him and said I'm casting a spell. Hit him with 3.0 Harm which dropped him to 1 hitpoint. Promptly won the surprise round as he's freaking out and knocked him unconscious, making sure he wouldn't die.

I make my escape, led by this torc that's showing me a way to what we believed to be a large glacier, was actually a liches keep.

So long story short, I became a lich, took over a giant keep, and promptly started raising a giant army of undead. Paladin and the group realized it would come to a fight between us. They thought they had destroyed my phylactery so they fought to the top of my keep to kill me. Managed to kill the wizard and then the rogue. Came to the Paladin and myself fighting. Cue dramatic, You didn't have to do this speech. Almost took me down to single digits, which would have left him free to search the keep. Cast Earthquake and brought down the entire keep. Silence at the table. Dm then states that a couple weeks later a bony fist bursts from the rubble and then goes into detail into how I rebuilt and then started enslaving the entire Northern kingdoms and wiped out everyone. Good hard fought session but everyone left happy. We had plans to continue on with the DM taking over my character and a child/descendant of my cleric would come forth to join a party to take my Cleric down but sadly we moved and fell out of touch.

Incidentally the Harm spell in this example should have been cast (at best) in the surprise round. But thats a mechanical quibble.

[Esprit15]

I blame the artifact. He was lured by power, like most imperfect humans would be. The loose sense of ethics just makes it easier.

However, you would be the guy to burn him at the stake before he even demonstrated that he would do that to you. Does someone demonstrate loyalty? Can they control impulses? That's my metric. Everything after that is detail. Nothing other than his faith was even possible reason to kill him, and that was not the thing that caused him to betray the party. It was the lure of power. That's not being a worshipper of Nerull, that's having a love of power. Until the point where he was basically promised anything he wanted, he was a perfectly functional party member. I've played neutral people who would have sold their party out for that kind of power without flinching. I've played some that wouldn't. However, before they were given that temptation, they have done nothing deserving of death.

[Keltest]

I blame the artifact. He was lured by power, like most imperfect humans would be. The loose sense of ethics just makes it easier.

However, you would be the guy to burn him at the stake before he even demonstrated that he would do that to you. Does someone demonstrate loyalty? Can they control impulses? That's my metric. Everything after that is detail. Nothing other than his faith was even possible reason to kill him, and that was not the thing that caused him to betray the party. It was the lure of power. That's not being a worshipper of Nerull, that's having a love of power. Until the point where he was basically promised anything he wanted, he was a perfectly functional party member. I've played neutral people who would have sold their party out for that kind of power without flinching. I've played some that wouldn't. However, before they were given that temptation, they have done nothing deserving of death.

Honestly, I think its a reasonable assumption that someone with a job of "homicidal maniac" is, in fact, a homicidal maniac, regardless of what they do on their days off.

It is possible the Nerull in that campaign setting is different than the more commonly known version, but it has not been stated that it is such. Thus, we can only judge off of the Nerull we know, and the Nerull we know has a cult made up of people willing and able to do horrific things on a fairly regular basis.