[3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

[D4rkh0rus]

I've been looking at Bloodlines for like a week now, and I'm still not entirely sure I understand them correctly.
The main point I don't get is Character level, Bloodline levels and Exp.

For example, Lets say I have a lvl 1 Binder. To get to lvl 2, I need 1,000 Exp. I then gain exactly 1k exp. So, Now Im lvl 2, And choose to take a level in Sorcerer. To get to lvl 3, I need to get 2,000 Exp.

Now, here comes the questions:

I gain exactly 2,000 Exp, Putting me to lvl 3, I then choose to take my first bloodline level.
What happens now?

What level do I count as?
My interpretation is that Bloodline Levels don't Increase your ECL, but other say they do.

What amount of Exp will I need to get to my 3rd Class level?
My interpretation is that I need to get another 2,000 Exp, since I count as a 2nd level for next lvl exp, but Others Say that it would be 3,000 instead (the amount needed to get from 3rd lvl to 4th level).

Can I reach 20 Class levels while having 3 Bloodline Levels without being counted as Epic?


And Finally, Casters and Bloodlines.
I know that for example, a Wizard or Sorcerer, only gets a higher Caster Level from a bloodline, but what about Prestige Classes?

If I have Bloodline levels and I take a prestige Class that grants Spellcasting levels every level, Do I get as many spellcaster levels in the class I chose as I have bloodline levels as well?

(For example, Wizard 3, Master Specialist 1. With 1 Bloodline level (of any type) Would the Wizard be a 4HD character with 4th lvl wizard stuff a CL of 5, or would it be a 4hd character with 5th level wizard stuff and a CL of 5?



Thank you all in advance for any help you may provide :P

[Swaoeaeieu]

many interpretations exist. all of them are by some degree a logical interpretation.
however, there has never been any kind of clarification of what the true one is. so while the forums go to war on occasion to fight it out over who is right, no one will ever get a consensus.

that leaves you with only one advise you can use: ask your dm, he decides in the end.

[Beheld]

It's super mega hyper clear that bloodline levels do not count as ECL "Class levels of “bloodline” do not increase a character’s character level the way a normal class level does,"

So you are still a level 2 character who needs the amount of XP you normally needed to get to level 3. You are spending XP to gain benefits that don't count against ECL, which is always and forever dumb, whether it is LA buyoff, crafting items to get double WBL, Bloodline Levels, or spending XP to get more class features, but that is how they work.

You can reach 20 without being epic, but you have to spend more XP to get there. Although, since you gain more XP for being lower level, you'll probably end up getting there nearly the same times as everyone else.

Prestige class Caster level could easily be argued either way, but basically, do you want to play a game in which a Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/ect. at level 11 has a CL of 21? Because I don't.

[AmberVael]

The "Bloodlines don't add to ECL" interpretation really just doesn't have any basis in the rules.

I mean, okay. I get where it comes from. Its this really stupid line:

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

But the problem with interpreting this as "it doesn't add to ECL" comes in with trying to figure out how that works. The bloodline rules give absolutely no provisions for such a situation, no explanation for its functioning. It doesn't push your needed experience higher (which would just be adding to ECL). It doesn't cost experience either, otherwise something like that would be stated, like it was with the LA buyoff rules in the same book. Which leaves you with the interpretation "you take this level of bloodline, it doesn't add to your ECL, and it costs nothing because you just immediately level up normally too since your exp is the same." Which is pretty ridiculous.
In short, with this interpretation you either need to accept that bloodlines are entirely costless, or houserule in a cost, because one doesn't exist as is.

The exact rules are kind of a mess, but I think it makes the most sense to just interpret it as somewhat weird, scaling LA. Which admittedly is costly.


As for what this does to a spellcaster, it increases your caster level but doesn't give you more spells known, per day, or higher spell levels. See:

For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

[Cosi]

Not super on topic, but in any discussion of bloodlines it's worth mentioning that every bloodline gives a benefit several levels before you have to pay for it. That makes bloodlines (admittedly minor) power for nothing in any game you expect to end before your first bloodline level.

[D4rkh0rus]

I see, So there is no cleat way of determining ><

[Telonius]

The rules are a pretty heaping mess, but here's what I've been able to piece together as how it's supposed to work. This is my interpretation only; your DM will have to rule on whatever you come up with. I'm assuming a regular PHB race, with nothing weird like Racial Hit Dice, Templates, or any kind of Level Adjustment.

Level
1 Binder1 (ECL 1)
- Gain 1000 xp -
2 Binder2 (ECL 2)
- Gain 2000 xp -
(3) Major Bloodline/I'mNotActuallyARealLevel1 (ECL 2)
- Gain 3000 xp
3 Binder3 (ECL 3)

I'mNotActuallyARealLevel does give you a few things. It allows you an additional +1 to your maximum ranks in class skills (when you take you next real level). It increases your Caster Level by 1 for all spells. (Note that this is Caster Level only; it doesn't give you any additional spells known or spells per day. It mostly matters to spell damage and duration, as well as a couple of other things). Effective Character Level is defined as Character Level plus racial hit dice plus level adjustment. INAARL does not actually grant a level, and isn't a racial hit die or a level adjustment, so it doesn't count against it.

If you take a Bloodline, you will not reach Epic before you get to level 21. You'll need a higher XP total than usual to hit 21, since you'll have spent some amount of XP reaching INAARL 3.

Most Prestige Classes advance the casting of the original class, rather than granting a list of their own. The PrC isn't affected by INAARL. If you had a Wizard15/Archmage4/INAARL3, both the Archmage and INAARL modify Wizard; so the caster level would be 22. There are some Prestige Classes that don't work like that - Ur-Priest, and any of the others that give a unique spell list. Those classes would count just as though they were their own spellcasting class. So if you were to somehow get a Bard10/Assassin8/INAARL3, you'd have a caster level of 13 for the Bard and 11 for the Assassin.


EDIT: The closest parallel I've been able to figure for it would be something like the MM1 Half-races. While they have a static Level Adjustment, their CRs vary depending on how many hit dice they have. Increasing the CR doesn't do much for them, it's just a bookkeeping thing. Similar thing going on with Bloodlines. At various hitdice, you wait a bit longer to level up; but they throw you a bone on caster level and skill point cap so it doesn't hurt quite so bad.

[Beheld]

The exact rules are kind of a mess, but I think it makes the most sense to just interpret it as somewhat weird, scaling LA. Which admittedly is costly.

You think the most sensible interpretation of the rules explicitly stating that bloodline levels don't add to ECL, is that they do add to ECL? That's a unique definition of sensible.

If you are confused at how the poorly worded XP cost from taking Bloodline level is accounted, that's fine. It's poorly written nonsense. But to claim that the most sensible interpretation is that Bloodline levels add to ECL when the entire purpose of Bloodline levels is to design a system that recognizes the benefits aren't worth an actual class level is weird.

[rrwoods]

Oh hey, I was just asking about these the other day.

The most confusing part is how they interact with XP. From what I gather, it works like this:

The XP *increment* you need to get from level N to the next level is 1000*n. Add this to the last number you needed to level, and you'll get the *total* amount you need to get to the next level. WITHOUT any bloodline levels, this gets you to the table listed in the core rules: 1000 for level 2, 3000 for level 3, etc.

Enter bloodline levels. Bloodline levels are not levels, except for the ways explicitly listed in the bloodline rules. Notably, they aren't levels when determining the XP increment needed to achieve the next level. So let's say our level 2 character reaches 3000 XP and decides to take a bloodline level. Now, that character is still level 2, so the XP increment needed to gain another level is 2000, meaning their total must reach 5000. (Note that you can take bloodline levels early if you want to; this has the effect of reducing all your XP "costs" for taking those levels at the expense of a delayed class progression.)

All of this is clear as mud in the SRD article on bloodlines, of course, and it's one of two valid interpretations. However I think it's the accepted one, if the Optimization Showcase is anything to go by.

EDIT: Bloodline levels' interaction with CL is easy enough. Say you have a wizard 4 with one bloodline level. You prepare spells as a 4th level wizard (because your spell progression is defined in the class feature table, and bloodline levels don't advance your class feature) but you cast at CL 5 (because bloodline levels add to caster level). Okay? Okay.

Some systems respond a little differently though. Look at Binder's prestige classes: it's their text that specifies their class levels stack with Binder for determining your EBL. So if you are, for example, Binder 7 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 1 with one bloodline level, your EBL is 10. 8 from Binder, 2 from KOSS.

Other prestige classes may behave this way as well, I haven't looked. I'd also not be surprised if a DM house ruled this away.

[Bronk]

The biggest problem with the way the rules for bloodlines are written is that they don't mesh with the official way of accumulating XP.

Normally you accumulate XP as an ever growing number that you keep track of, and you gain levels as you tick past certain milestones.

The problem with bloodlines is that you're clearly supposed to be paying or otherwise using XP to get them. So, say you pass level two, and you finally gain enough xp to level up again. If you take level three, there's no problem. If instead you take bloodline level 1, you get the benefits of bloodline level 1, but then what? It's not a real level, so you're still level two, but with enough XP for level three. So, rules as written, now you're level 3, and just got a free bloodline level.

This is especially troublesome once you realize there's nothing stopping you from taking more than one set of bloodlines! RAW, you could take, just, all the bloodlines for free.

So, people (DMs) try to come up with various ways to make it actually work in a game. You could treat it as LA or ECL, which captures the use of XP, but I think that goes too far by making it so that your levels are stunted in a game that only goes to level 20.

In my games, I treat bloodlines as costing as much XP as it would take to get to the next level, and then the XP disappears, like spending XP for a spell, because I think it causes fewer headaches.

[Darrin]

All of this is clear as mud in the SRD article on bloodlines, of course, and it's one of two valid interpretations. However I think it's the accepted one, if the Optimization Showcase is anything to go by.

There are two methods to make the XP cost functional:

1) Reduce your XP by N, where N = amount of XP to level up for your next level. This makes it similar to LA Buyoff or wizards crafting magic items, where we already have a grasp of how the mechanics work. This means you're "falling behind" the rest of the party, but it also allows you to use the same XP table as everyone else. Essentially you "repeat" earning XP for certain levels, and if you do this early on then the cost is much lower than if you do it in your later levels. The UA text never mentions reducing or losing XP this way, so it's probably not RAW but it's easier bookkeeping.

2) Increase the amount needed to level up for all your future levels by N, where N = amount spent on Bloodline levels. This means you have to calculate a new XP chart specifically for this character whenever he levels up. While this means the character still has the same amount of XP as everyone else in the party, the bookkeeping is more of a mess. Assuming the designers intended for bloodline levels to not count towards ECL, this method is closer to matching the text, but is much more confusing and annoying.

[rrwoods]

@Darrin: I'd probably use your method 1, as it's easily the cleanest way almost all the time. There is, however, the question of how losing a level works in that system (or at all, actually). One could argue that the same text that stipulates that bloodline levels aren't real levels means they can't be lost; in that case you'd lose your last gained class level instead. But if you wanted to rule that a bloodline level is lost, I think you simply wouldn't lose any XP (you already lost the XP when you took the bloodline level).

[Segev]

"It doesn't raise your level like normal class levels" doesn't mean "it doesn't count as a level nor raise your ECL." The two statements are not (necessarily) equivalent. The latter COULD be one way the former is true, but there are other ways the former can be true.

Such as, "This doesn't behave like a normal level, in that it doesn't give you a new hit die nor skills nor BAB nor saves."

If "bloodline levels" didn't count as an actual level in your ECL, there would be no reason for them to give the "lesser" benefits they do grant (advancing CL, etc.).

In fact, if they do all of that and cost you nothing but a couple thousand XP, then they're flat-out better than regular levels, so taking a Bloodline is 100% positive with no drawback. D&D's game design does not typically work that way (at least not intentionally).

It is very clear that the intent (yes, yes, RAI is not RAW) was to have the "bloodline levels" be a cost paid by the PC for the powers of the bloodline. Since there is disagreement over what the RAW means, and given the discussion I opened this post with, the clear intent actually is a useful guideline for how to interpret the RAW.

That is, that bloodline levels ARE levels, they DO increase your ECL and DO make you unable to gain 20 HD pre-Epic. They are not "like normal levels" because they don't offer HD, skills, BAB, feats, or stat boosts. They were written before "monster progressions," or they might have been likened to the levels of monster progressions that don't come with HD advancement.

Bloodline levels are actually really useful for some builds. They boost some class features which are normally limited by the cap on the PrC's level. They can advance multiple CLs and other "class level" counters simultaneously (letting you advance, as a less-than-optimal example, the monk's stunning fist and the sorcerer's caster level and the paladin's smite evil level-based bonus with a single level). But they ARE levels.


Essentially, you have two valid readings of the RAW. One is in line with the clear intent of what was written, treating bloodline levels as at least a mild sacrifice to "pay" for the bloodline. The other only makes Bloodlines more powerful and less balanced. Which do you think is the correct reading to go with?

[rrwoods]

Personally I don't think bloodline levels not advancing character level is unbalanced. They advance each of your classes "level counters", so yeah, level-dependent effects get increased. But you don't gain new class features or hit dice or lots of other things. I'd be hard pressed to say that makes them strictly better than class levels.

However I don't have practical experience with bloodlines, so my thoughts could be way off base here.

[Beheld]

In fact, if they do all of that and cost you nothing but a couple thousand XP, then they're flat-out better than regular levels, so taking a Bloodline is 100% positive with no drawback. D&D's game design does not typically work that way (at least not intentionally).

You mean like LA buyoff that literally comes right before that and has the same qualities?

There really aren't two viable interpretations, there is one interpretation, and then people who really really really really really wish that wasn't what it said, and so choose to do something that completely contradicts the relevant rule on purpose because they don't want all their characters to slap on a bloodline for free power.

But you can just not allow them to do that, because it's an optional rule to make up for how bad LA and Half Dragon templates and stuff are.

[AmberVael]

You think the most sensible interpretation of the rules explicitly stating that bloodline levels don't add to ECL, is that they do add to ECL? That's a unique definition of sensible.

If you are confused at how the poorly worded XP cost from taking Bloodline level is accounted, that's fine. It's poorly written nonsense. But to claim that the most sensible interpretation is that Bloodline levels add to ECL when the entire purpose of Bloodline levels is to design a system that recognizes the benefits aren't worth an actual class level is weird.

I think the most sensible interpretation is to assume that the sentence was them stupidly putting their foot in their mouths while trying to say "this doesn't give the normal benefits of class levels" rather than completely making up a new system of adding a cost to it that is mentioned nowhere in the rules. Because there is no "poorly worded XP cost." Its not poorly worded, it doesn't exist. It is fabricated entirely, a houserule popularized by a guide that passed it off as fact.

[Segev]

You mean like LA buyoff that literally comes right before that and has the same qualities?

There really aren't two viable interpretations, there is one interpretation, and then people who really really really really really wish that wasn't what it said, and so choose to do something that completely contradicts the relevant rule on purpose because they don't want all their characters to slap on a bloodline for free power.

But you can just not allow them to do that, because it's an optional rule to make up for how bad LA and Half Dragon templates and stuff are.

No. LA Buyoff is actually a cost, still.

1) LA is, by itself, a cost: you start behind in real levels, and have to earn EXP as if you were of-a-level.
2) LA Buyoff allows you to mitigate this somewhat, but it costs you XP to do so, and you can only do it after a certain number of levels.
3) All LA Buyoff gets you for the spent XP is a lower ECL so that you can earn future levels for less.

Bloodline levels, on the other hand:

1) Come AFTER you've already received the first few benefits 100% for free.
2) Give you something upon taking them (increased CL, etc.)


LA Buyoff doesn't suddenly make your LA into extra bonuses. Bloodline levels that don't add to ECL are just plain extra bonuses.


Nobody would take LA just to get the privilege of LA buyoff. I can think of builds where, if Bloodline Levels didn't increase ECL, people would want to take them even without a bloodline attached!

[Troacctid]

There really aren't two viable interpretations, there is one interpretation, and then people who really really really really really wish that wasn't what it said, and so choose to do something that completely contradicts the relevant rule on purpose because they don't want all their characters to slap on a bloodline for free power.

I think saying a viable interpretation exists is pretty generous. I don't think any interpretation of the RAW for bloodlines is viable. It's a pile of nonsense and the only way to make it work is to handwave the problems away.

[Beheld]

No. LA Buyoff is actually a cost, still.

1) LA is, by itself, a cost: you start behind in real levels, and have to earn EXP as if you were of-a-level.
2) LA Buyoff allows you to mitigate this somewhat, but it costs you XP to do so, and you can only do it after a certain number of levels.
3) All LA Buyoff gets you for the spent XP is a lower ECL so that you can earn future levels for less.

LA Buyoff doesn't suddenly make your LA into extra bonuses. Bloodline levels that don't add to ECL are just plain extra bonuses.


Nobody would take LA just to get the privilege of LA buyoff. I can think of builds where, if Bloodline Levels didn't increase ECL, people would want to take them even without a bloodline attached!

Uh... yes they would. If you are a level 4 character in a game with LA buyoff it is objectively better to have an LA then not. People take that LA just to use LA buyoff all the time. It doesn't matter if you do it as an Arcane Caster who gets Vecna Blooded or a DFA that gets Lolth Touched, either way, if you are higher than level 4, LA is objectively free power. You spend some XP, and you get huge bonuses, and then you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later.

I think saying a viable interpretation exists is pretty generous. I don't think any interpretation of the RAW for bloodlines is viable. It's a pile of nonsense and the only way to make it work is to handwave the problems away.

Let me clear, I'm not saying there is a viable interpretation of everything about Bloodlines, only that a character with 3 character levels and a bloodline level is not a level 4 character.

[Telonius]

Again, just my own interpretation here, but I think the major cost of Bloodlines was supposed to be the real-world delay in class progression. As in, you'd have to spend several additional sessions' worth of XP earning before you'd get your extra HP, skills, spells known, BAB, or whatever, from your regular (non-Bloodline) levels. While the non-Bloodline Cleric has been casting multiple Level 9 spells per day for three levels, the Major-Bloodline Wizard will only barely crack 9th-level spells before the game breaks up at 20th (and the Sorcerer's just plain out of luck). I'd consider that a tradeoff. Maybe worth it, maybe not; but you aren't getting something for nothing.

[Necroticplague]

They way I always interpreted bloodlines, they were essentially pre-bought off LA. So if you're level 2, and have the XP to go to level three, you can instead lose all that XP to drop down to the XP you started the level with.
The bloodline 'level' doesn't increase your ECL, so you're a level 2 character, need the normal XP to go from 2 to three, and you're not epic until you have 18 more class levels.

As for the pRC+base class mess..... It appears that you can double dip like that. After all, the bloodline class level increases things calculations based on your class level by one. Having a full-casting PRC and a base class means that essentially, your CL formula is (Base Class+ PRC). Since Bloodlines act on top of Class Levels in general, it would increase Base Class and PRC each by one, providing a total increase of two.

[Segev]

Uh... yes they would. If you are a level 4 character in a game with LA buyoff it is objectively better to have an LA then not. People take that LA just to use LA buyoff all the time. It doesn't matter if you do it as an Arcane Caster who gets Vecna Blooded or a DFA that gets Lolth Touched, either way, if you are higher than level 4, LA is objectively free power. You spend some XP, and you get huge bonuses, and then you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later.

You misunderstand me.

I said "even with no bloodline attached, people would take your version of bloodline levels."

Saying, "People would take a free template" is a total negation of the point I was making.

Nobody would take LA just to buy it off if there were no template they were getting. I am saying there are builds that would absolutely take your version of bloodline levels even if they got no bloodline out of it. They'd gleefully spend the exp for the free boosts to level-counters without having to increase their ECL alone.

[Andorn]

Uh... yes they would. If you are a level 4 character in a game with LA buyoff it is objectively better to have an LA then not. People take that LA just to use LA buyoff all the time. It doesn't matter if you do it as an Arcane Caster who gets Vecna Blooded or a DFA that gets Lolth Touched, either way, if you are higher than level 4, LA is objectively free power. You spend some XP, and you get huge bonuses, and then you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later.

Hmm, I'm not really sure your point is valid, but I'm not clear what you mean by this. Could you explain your thinking, preferably with a concrete example? Especially, what do you mean by "LA is objectively free power", and "you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later".

I've looked at the level buyoff rules, and they pretty much suck. If you start with a group at level 1, with a LA > 3, you're getting less XP than anybody else in the group from the get go because your ECL is so much higher. Sure, you can dominate low level critters, but by the time you have enough XP for level 2 (5,000 XP for LA+4), probably everyone else in the group has leveled 3 times (1,000, 3,000, 6,000, at faster XP gain rate).

At that point, you still have level 1 HP (maybe level 2), are fragile compared to the rest of the group, and haven't gained any abilities at all. Your ability edge is now gone, as everybody else has leveled up to a comparable power level. The difference is, they have hit dice, saving throw bonuses, spells, BAB, feats, special abilities, and their first stat increase.

While feats, spells, and special abilities may balance out, your deficits in HP, BAB, and saving throws probably won't, and as monsters get tougher this will matter more and more.

Eventually (depending on your LA) you will get to buy off at least one level. Lets run some actual numbers to see what happens:

If your LA is +4, you get your first buyoff at level 12, for 15,000 XP ((ECL - 1) x 1,000). This will reduce the XP it costs you to level by 1,000 per level, so it will take you 15 levels (until level 24) to break even on the XP cost. Granted, you'll gain XP a bit faster by reducing your ECL by 1. You can buy off a second level at level 15, for a cost of 17,000 XP. It will take you until level 32 to break even on that one. You can buy off a 3rd level at level 18 (19.000 XP), which will take you until level 37 to break even.

If your LA is +5 you'll get to buy off a grand total of ONE level before you reach epic amounts of XP, at level 15. This will cost you ((ECL-1) x 1,000) = 19,000 XP, and will take you until level 34 to break even. You do get to buy off another level at CL 18, but that is ECL 22, an epic level. that level costs 21,000 xp, and will take you until level 40 to pay for itself in reduced xp costs/level. At level 21 (23,000 XP), 23 (25,000 XP) and 25 (27,000 XP) you can buy off your last 3 levels. You'll have to level to 52 just to break even.

If your LA is +6, fagedaboudit. First buyoff is CL 18 (ECL 24), for a cost of 23,000 XP. You've got 5 fewer HD (and con bonuses), 5 less BAB, 3-4 less on each save, you're just weak. You'll have to fight stuff weaker than your ECL in order to be on par, which means slower advancement. Further buyoffs are 21, 24, 27, 30, and 33, with a break even point of level 66. Even then, you are STILL behind all your compatriots by those 5 HD, 5 bab, saves, feats, stat points, and abilities.

Consider a pixie with a 20 charisma and Otto's Dance (LA +6). The party will be level 6 and you'll still be a level 1 sorcerer, with 4-6 HP. So the party meets a level 7 wizard, who chucks an ice storm at you. You have spell resistance of 16, but for the specialist wizard with spell penetration he only needs to roll a 6 on D20 to affect you, and there is no save---5d6 averages to 17.5 damage, and fey cannot be raised.

Basically, the rules for higher levels of ECL are pretty broken. You have a tougher time leveling because once you are out of the lower levels you are always behind the power curve, and you level slower because of your high ECL and relative fragility.

As written, high-LA characters are fun at level 1 when you have a lot of free abilities, but as part of an ongoing campaign they are seriously broken. It seems to me the big problem is making characters wait so long before they start paying XP to buy down those level adjustments. I don't have a problem with the concept of paying extra XP as an investment, but the RAWs just don't work.

By making buydown available at level 1, and every 3 levels after that, characters with high starting ECL can reach leveling and power parity somewhere in the teens to early 20's, which is much more balanced and playable in a long term campaign. A character pays an amount of XP equal to what they need to gain their next level in order to buy down a level.

With this system, a LA+4 character pays 5,000 XP at level 1 to become ECL 4, while the party levels to level 4. The character then levels at par with the group, for 4,000, 5,000, and 6,000, to CL 4. The group will have 7 hit dice, the level-adjusted character will have 4. They will gain XP at the same rate, being the same ECL. At this point the level-adjusted character can buy down another level, for 7,000 XP. The group will reach level 8, while the level-adjusted character becomes ECL 6 (4 HD + LA2).

At this point the level-adjusted character will start to gain XP faster, being 2 levels behind, and lower level. So, while the party gains levels 9, 10, and 11, for 30,000 XP, the level-adjusted character gains character levels 5, 6, and 7, for 7,000, 8,000, and 9,000 XP. With the remaining 6,000, plus extra for being lower level than the group, the adjusted character buys off their 3rd level, and is now ECL 8 (7 HD + LA+1).

So now, the group gains levels 12, 13, and 14, for 39,000 XP. The LA character is ECL 8 so gains XP faster, and gains character levels 8, 9, and 10, for 9,000, 10,000, and 11,000 XP respectively, and buys off their last level. So, they end up 3 levels behind the group, but can now gain XP and level normally.

By the time the group hits level 17 the LA character has probably gained a level on them, being only 2 levels back. By the time the group hits level 21 the LA character may reach character level 20.

This mechanic keeps the group playing together.

A higher LA character will end up farther behind the group before they gain XP parity. The level difference will allow them to gain ground, over time. This is the price they pay for their early fun, I guess.

[bekeleven]

Did you just say that bloodline levels are a better deal than LA by comparing them to an LA+6 race?

Beheld just compared bloodlines to LA Buyoff "at level 4" giving examples of LA+1 templates.

Please try to use serious examples. Nobody takes LA +6 templates in optimization discussions unless they're getting something gamebreaking out of it. With LA like that even Phaerimm wouldn't be playable until mid-double digits.

[zergling.exe]

-snip-

RAW LA reduction is actually worse than that. It's LAx3 at every step. LA 3 is bought off at level 9, 15 and lastly at 18. With a LA of 4, you buy off the first one at level 12, then have to wait until level 21 to buy off the next one.

And that's not even figuring racial HD into this.

[Beheld]

Hmm, I'm not really sure your point is valid, but I'm not clear what you mean by this. Could you explain your thinking, preferably with a concrete example? Especially, what do you mean by "LA is objectively free power", and "you end up with the same amount of XP a level and a half later".

The LA buyoff rules are absolutely terrible. One of them is that the more LA you have (and thus the more you need buyoff) the longer before you can use it. So a +6 LA race can literally never buyoff even one LA, so obviously +6 LA is not the way you compare LA buyoff, since it's literally identical to no LA buyoff.

LA buyoff is free power for nothing at 1 LA.

You are a Wizard 1 with no LA. You take Wizard 2, then Wizard 3. Now you are a level 3 character with X XP. In a world of LA buyoff, when you get enough XP, instead of taking a level, what you should do instead is turn yourself into a Vecna Blooded. That's a +1 LA template, but you immediately buy it off. So you gain the same XP as someone with no LA at levels 1-3, and then you gain more XP than them, because you are level 3 and they are level 4, and then, you keep gaining more XP than them until you catch up. And then, when they are a Wizard 5 you are a Wizard 5 with Vecna Blooded.

LA Buyoff is free power because you can slap a +1 LA template on and buy it off, and then catch up to everyone, not because it makes +4 LA playable.

That's poor design on many levels. It's poor design in that +1 LA is free after a certain point, and it's poor design in that +4 LA is still always and forever worthless. Which is why I don't use LA buyoff rules and don't advocate anyone else use them, and I instead work on custom monster classes or races if someone wants to be a monster.

[Ruethgar]

I'm going B to have to agree with Beheld's interpretation here, however technically the EXP isn't expended so you immediately level up again, but that needs to be remedied and the simplist and nearest RAW is to spend the EXP like a magic item or what have you.

It does not increase ECL because of the oft quoted line about not increasing character level normally, but because later it specifically forbids it to advance non-class abilities, which would include ECL.

[Segev]

LA buyoff rules are a little open to interpretation, because they're deliberately fuzzy. That said, they generally state that you can buy off the LA 3xLA levels after you gain that LA.

For most creatures, that means your first LA buyoff is 3xLA levels into your build. So the LA +4 guy can buy it off at level 12+4, or 16. And that gets him down to LA +3, with character level 12. He now has to wait another 9 levels to buy off his new LA of +3.

Your hypothetical Wizard who adds the Vecna-blooded template voluntarily at level 3 now has a +1 LA, which he gained at level 3 (and is now ECL 4). He must gain 3 levels (putting him at ECL 7) before he can buy it off (dropping him to ECL 6, but behind on XP compared to the party that is ECL - and probably character level - 7).



As for Bloodlines, the thing about them NOT actually raising your ECL is that they give specific benefits when you take the Bloodline levels. These benefits are meant to be mere consolation prizes compared to actually gaining real levels, but they do have some merit in and of themselves. Most importantly, they grant +1 level to all class features that rely on class level directly. So anything that references caster level, class level, etc. in its formulae gets increased by one. This includes things like Eldrich Blast, Hellfire Blast, maximum Essentia investment, bonus PP from high Ability score, all caster and manifester levels, some classes' sneak attack (and equivalent), and other things from PrCs with their own unique resources that are usually limited by the PrC's limited number of levels.

This is good enough to be worth having on its own, even if it costs you a legitimate hit die by being, in effect, a level adjustment. i.e. a single bloodline level on a 3-HD creature makes it an ECL 4 character. At least for certain builds. If it literally just is some XP cost at level 3, so you're a few XP behind until you "catch up," but you gain all of that? It's a no-brainer benefit. And that's ignoring whatever goodies the bloodline itself gives you.

[Beheld]

LA buyoff rules are a little open to interpretation, because they're deliberately fuzzy. That said, they generally state that you can buy off the LA 3xLA levels after you gain that LA.

For most creatures, that means your first LA buyoff is 3xLA levels into your build. So the LA +4 guy can buy it off at level 12+4, or 16. And that gets him down to LA +3, with character level 12. He now has to wait another 9 levels to buy off his new LA of +3.

Your hypothetical Wizard who adds the Vecna-blooded template voluntarily at level 3 now has a +1 LA, which he gained at level 3 (and is now ECL 4). He must gain 3 levels (putting him at ECL 7) before he can buy it off (dropping him to ECL 6, but behind on XP compared to the party that is ECL - and probably character level - 7).

Except that the rules don't say any of that anywhere at any point and they say exactly what I said they say:

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Do your 3 class levels count as 3 times your 1 LA? Congratulations, you can reduce your LA to zero. The rules for how to reduce LA a second time don't apply to reducing it the first time, so you can't use them that way. Which is probably why they make no sense if you try to apply them that way.

As for Bloodlines, the thing about them NOT actually raising your ECL is that they give specific benefits when you take the Bloodline levels. These benefits are meant to be mere consolation prizes compared to actually gaining real levels, but they do have some merit in and of themselves. Most importantly, they grant +1 level to all class features that rely on class level directly. So anything that references caster level, class level, etc. in its formulae gets increased by one. This includes things like Eldrich Blast, Hellfire Blast, maximum Essentia investment, bonus PP from high Ability score, all caster and manifester levels, some classes' sneak attack (and equivalent), and other things from PrCs with their own unique resources that are usually limited by the PrC's limited number of levels.

This is good enough to be worth having on its own, even if it costs you a legitimate hit die by being, in effect, a level adjustment. i.e. a single bloodline level on a 3-HD creature makes it an ECL 4 character. At least for certain builds. If it literally just is some XP cost at level 3, so you're a few XP behind until you "catch up," but you gain all of that? It's a no-brainer benefit. And that's ignoring whatever goodies the bloodline itself gives you.

Yes, Either Bloodlines are free power for nothing (Which by the way, they always are, what happens if you start play at level 1 with a minor bloodline? Answer: You get free power and the campaign ends before you ever take a Bloodline level) or they are mediocre garbage.

The claim that Bloodline levels are good because they advance PrC class features past the point they are even written is both specious, because there is no actual rules argument that they do that (also no rules argument they don't, it's just "make up whatever you want" in both cases) and also a really bad argument for why it was supposed to be balanced as scaling LA by intention, since Hellfire Warlock and Abjurant Champion didn't exist, and no other PrC actually grants anything you could even being to care about scaling higher than the 10 or whatever that they already have.

In either case, Bloodline advancement is poorly written and poorly designed, and you should either just give everyone one at no cost, or never ever use them at all.

[Andorn]

I'm going B to have to agree with Beheld's interpretation here, however technically the EXP isn't expended so you immediately level up again, but that needs to be remedied and the simplist and nearest RAW is to spend the EXP like a magic item or what have you.

It does not increase ECL because of the oft quoted line about not increasing character level normally, but because later it specifically forbids it to advance non-class abilities, which would include ECL.

Well, that's how I treat it, but that is how I treat gaining a level, too, not as a running total. I'm working on a gestalt system, where you can have multiple gestalt classes but pay for them, at a reduced rate of XP since you don't get additional hit dice, save bonuses overlap, can only get int bonus on skills once per level, etc. Your XP goes into a "bank", and you expend it, for level buyoff, gaining a level, for rituals, item creation, casting certain spells, etc. It is more intuitive, and consistent.