Death Battle II - I don't THINK Gara got robbed I KNOW he did.

[McNum]

Honestly, unless there is some version of shredder I havent seen that grants him greatly superior strength and speed, or somehow gives him durability on par with adamantium, I just dont see it ending well. Even that scene you quoted, I could see it quickly devolving into the black knight from monty python. "Your arms off!" "No it isnt!"

I'd say for that particular Shredder, two moments stand out. In the 2003 episode Exodus, he uses a different exo suit that effortlessly beats up the Turtles. With four arms and being twice as tall as them and all that. Basically his "final boss" form as that episode ends with his final defeat... except then Turtles Forever happened.

Turtles Forever Utrom Shredder is... Imagine all the sci-fi gadgets the 1988 Shredder and Krang had. Autonomous robots, energy weapons, the Technodrome, dimensional portals... And then put it in the hands of someone, you know, competent. His new suit runs on that, including Krang's enlargement technology. It took a shot from the heavily upgraded Technodrome to take him down. Which may very well be the durability feat they use for him. I'm not sure how the Silver Samurai works against giant mechanical foes, but if they're giving Shredder all his powers, becoming minor kaiju sized is one of them.

Of course, as Zero vs. Metal Sonic shows... that's not always a good idea against a competent swordsman.

EDIT: To give an example of why Utrom Shredder could be trouble. Win or lose, he'll make Silver Samurai work for it.

[Devonix]

They are only compositing the Oroku Saki versions of the Shredder, No Utrom, no Tengu, no Worm, no Oroky Nagi. Just Oroku Saki Shredder.

And They didn't composite Superman either they just used Post Crisis comic Superman and a smidge of nu52 for the Rematch.

[Anteros]

Let's be honest. They didn't composite anything with Superman. They just spouted some pseudo-intellectual nonsense about his power being completely limitless despite it being explicitly not so.

We need a dead horse smiley so I can beat it.

[Traab]

Let's be honest. They didn't composite anything with Superman. They just spouted some pseudo-intellectual nonsense about his power being completely limitless despite it being explicitly not so.

We need a dead horse smiley so I can beat it.

He lifted infinity and eternity. By definition that makes him limitless in power. Superman got really stupid then they tried to ignore it. Doesnt make it not canon though. In comics, as I said, they can ignore the ludicrous feats, but in death battle, every time they have a panel where a poorly drawn effect implies ludicrous strength "Look at the size of this landmass she survived exploding. That clearly means she can tank x amount of damage and be fine" /ignores times she gets wrecked far more easily Same for comics which is what really makes including them unfair. They ALL have those moments that are still technically canon where they did something absurdly awesome even though normally their stats are far lower. Im sure there is a silver samurai comic where he cuts off galactus' left leg. Which means thats now his baseline strength according to death battle.

[Devonix]

He lifted infinity and eternity. By definition that makes him limitless in power. Superman got really stupid then they tried to ignore it. Doesnt make it not canon though. In comics, as I said, they can ignore the ludicrous feats, but in death battle, every time they have a panel where a poorly drawn effect implies ludicrous strength "Look at the size of this landmass she survived exploding. That clearly means she can tank x amount of damage and be fine" /ignores times she gets wrecked far more easily Same for comics which is what really makes including them unfair. They ALL have those moments that are still technically canon where they did something absurdly awesome even though normally their stats are far lower. Im sure there is a silver samurai comic where he cuts off galactus' left leg. Which means thats now his baseline strength according to death battle.

Eh that's not really just Deathbattle That's just how the versus community in general handles things. They tend to ignore lower showings. I don't like it but it's simply how things are done.

[Mato]

He lifted infinity and eternity. By definition that makes him limitless in power.

And according to the MCU, Chris Pratt is stronger than Superman because he lifted an infinity without needing Shazamm or Wonder Women's help.

[Traab]

And according to the MCU, Chris Pratt is stronger than Superman because he lifted an infinity without needing Shazamm or Wonder Women's help.

Bah, everyone knows the infinite in the infinity stone refers to power, not mass. The book had infinite pages, which means it had infinite mass. This is BASIC SCIENCE PEOPLE!!!!

[Devonix]

Bah, everyone knows the infinite in the infinity stone refers to power, not mass. The book had infinite pages, which means it had infinite mass. This is BASIC SCIENCE PEOPLE!!!!

I understand why some people were upset about that seeing how it wasn't an actual strength feat. The Infinite stories were the universes, The infinite story is you and me and our imaginations and everything our imaginations might imagine. It was Grant Morrison having Superman carry our stories.

[digiman619]

Spoiler: Samurai vs Ninja

Show

Shredder wins. Meh.

Spoiler: Next time...

Show

It's getting a bit wierd. They have famous voice actors voicing... Smokey the Bear vs McGruff the Crime Dog. Wha....?

[Traab]

This battle

Spoiler

Show

meh, I still call bs, but whatever.

Next battle

Spoiler

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I guess they gotta do joke battles every now and then. Didnt they have beiber versus rebecca black?

[McNum]

Spoiler: Shredder vs. Silver Samurai

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Eh, sure. Nice to have an all out sword fight, though. Until Shredder went super and didn't feel like a swordfight anymore. Never really liked Super Shredder, though.

Spoiler: Next time...

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I'm sorry, who? I mean I know of them, but... why?

[Anteros]

Aren't they all pretty much joke battles anyway? I can't even remember the last time I saw one of their matchups and thought "Oh yeah, that's a good fight that makes thematic sense." Maybe Dante vs Bayonetta?

[SKarious]

Spoiler: Shredder vs. Silver Samurai

Show

Well, that was quite a nice battle.
Or, at least, it started nice and then got into crazy dragonball "flash-step smash-up and super forms" bull%^&* (tm).
Fight seemed resonable enough to me and I'm glad Shredder won.
Although, if the Samurai managed to KO Spiderman, doesn't this mean he has a better reaction time than someone who has preconition? (Spider-sense).

Spoiler: Next Battle!

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Um, who are those?

[Durkoala]

Let's be honest. They didn't composite anything with Superman. They just spouted some pseudo-intellectual nonsense about his power being completely limitless despite it being explicitly not so.

We need a dead horse smiley so I can beat it.

The premise of Superman beating Goku isn't that Superman has limitless power, it's that both Goku and Superman have completely immeasurable levels of power. Superman can hear a sound frequency on earth while in a different galaxy and arrive ten minutes later; Goku can run faster than he can teleport and even outrun the light of a flare, fetch a pair of sunglasses and return to his original position before the light hits him, to give a few examples. Measuring either of them with realistic physics is an excercise in futility, so the question of 'who would win in a fight?' has to be settled in some other way.

Goku's story is that of a martial artist in a never-ending quest of self-improvement: his constant adversary is his limits as a warrior. Superman is a protector looking for acceptance: his godlike power often isolates him from the society and people he cares for.

Therefore, from a story perpective, Superman's power is always too strong for his ideal life, while Goku's limits are constantly in his way. Since there is no other reasonable way of measuring them, the man who is too strong to be happy is considered to be stronger than the man who is never strong enough to be satisfied.

There's a bit about how Superman's power is dependent on what the plot needs him to be able to do, but in essence the idea is that Goku's defined by getting stronger than everybody, Superman's defined by being stronger than everybody else and there's no other way to measure them.

Spoiler: Next Battle!

Show

Um, who are those?

Spoiler: Next battle?

Show

From what I've gathered, they're fire safety mascots?

[Traab]

Smokey the bear "Only you can prevent forest fires" Mcgruff the crime dog "Take a bite out of crime!"

[Anteros]

The premise of Superman beating Goku isn't that Superman has limitless power, it's that both Goku and Superman have completely immeasurable levels of power. Superman can hear a sound frequency on earth while in a different galaxy and arrive ten minutes later; Goku can run faster than he can teleport and even outrun the light of a flare, fetch a pair of sunglasses and return to his original position before the light hits him, to give a few examples. Measuring either of them with realistic physics is an excercise in futility, so the question of 'who would win in a fight?' has to be settled in some other way.

Goku's story is that of a martial artist in a never-ending quest of self-improvement: his constant adversary is his limits as a warrior. Superman is a protector looking for acceptance: his godlike power often isolates him from the society and people he cares for.

Therefore, from a story perpective, Superman's power is always too strong for his ideal life, while Goku's limits are constantly in his way. Since there is no other reasonable way of measuring them, the man who is too strong to be happy is considered to be stronger than the man who is never strong enough to be satisfied.

There's a bit about how Superman's power is dependent on what the plot needs him to be able to do, but in essence the idea is that Goku's defined by getting stronger than everybody, Superman's defined by being stronger than everybody else and there's no other way to measure them.

Spoiler: Next battle?

Show

From what I've gathered, they're fire safety mascots?

You understand that this point is objectively nonsensical, right? Like, if I tell you a story about Hagrid and how his strength causes him all sorts of problems, it doesn't automatically make him stronger than someone like Darkseid who is constantly struggling for more power. You understand that, right? Please tell me you understand how objectively silly that argument is.

Also, Superman isn't even stronger than everyone else in his own setting. The entire base for the argument is a lie. Amazo, Highfather, Dr. Manhattan, Spectre, Anti-Monitor, Mxyzptlk, Lucifer, The Presence...these are just off the top of my head. The number of DC characters with more raw power than Supes is probably in the dozens.

[Durkoala]

You understand that this point is objectively nonsensical, right? Like, if I tell you a story about Hagrid and how his strength causes him all sorts of problems, it doesn't automatically make him stronger than someone like Darkseid who is constantly struggling for more power. You understand that, right? Please tell me you understand how objectively silly that argument is.

Also, Superman isn't even stronger than everyone else in his own setting. The entire base for the argument is a lie. Amazo, Highfather, Dr. Manhattan, Spectre, Anti-Monitor, Mxyzptlk, Lucifer, The Presence...these are just off the top of my head. The number of DC characters with more raw power than Supes is probably in the dozens.

The important bit is that there is no other way to compare Goku and Superman's strength. Both of them are fast enough to be utterly silly no matter how you look at it (to reiterate, Goku's flight speed is faster than his teleportation) and both can break the universe by punching hard enough*. Death Battle asks who would win if they would fought, and this is the closest they can get to a measurement of strength. For once, I think they reasoned exactly right.

*and before anybody says anything about the circumstances and/or frequency of risking breaking the universe, there's no way of knowing if the Dragonball and DC universes are equally strong or not, so the effort required to break them isn't necessarily the same.

[Rynjin]

(to reiterate, Goku's flight speed is faster than his teleportation)

...Where, exactly, do you get that assessment?

I'll grant you the argument could be made that over short distances Instant Transmission is "slower" than his movement (since it has a wind up/down period before disappearing and after reappearing) but it IS still literally instantaneous movement. Once the actual teleportation has taken effect, he appears at the other "end" in the same time no matter what. Instant Transmission is explicitly faster than Whis can move in a universe traversal sense, and to Whis Goku going all out is like a parent watching their toddler win a footrace. Cute, but not impressive by adult standards.

[Durkoala]

...Where, exactly, do you get that assessment?

I'll grant you the argument could be made that over short distances Instant Transmission is "slower" than his movement (since it has a wind up/down period before disappearing and after reappearing) but it IS still literally instantaneous movement. Once the actual teleportation has taken effect, he appears at the other "end" in the same time no matter what. Instant Transmission is explicitly faster than Whis can move in a universe traversal sense, and to Whis Goku going all out is like a parent watching their toddler win a footrace. Cute, but not impressive by adult standards.

....hmm, I can't recall right now. I have a feeling that it was either in one of the Screwattack videos or somewhere on the internet related to Death Battle. I'm too tired to go searching for it right now though, sorry.

[Callos_DeTerran]

...Where, exactly, do you get that assessment?

I'll grant you the argument could be made that over short distances Instant Transmission is "slower" than his movement (since it has a wind up/down period before disappearing and after reappearing) but it IS still literally instantaneous movement. Once the actual teleportation has taken effect, he appears at the other "end" in the same time no matter what. Instant Transmission is explicitly faster than Whis can move in a universe traversal sense, and to Whis Goku going all out is like a parent watching their toddler win a footrace. Cute, but not impressive by adult standards.

...doesn't Supreme Kai have a superior version of Instant Transmission? As in its called out as actually faster than it? I'mma go look that up.

[Lord Raziere]

...doesn't Supreme Kai have a superior version of Instant Transmission? As in its called out as actually faster than it? I'mma go look that up.

Yup, Instantaneous Movement, doesn't need the two fingers, doesn't need ki sensing, just imagine where you want to go, and you go there. we have no idea why Goku or other people don't learn it.

[Chives]

Look. There's a really easy way to figure out if Goku can beat Superman. Ki is the energy of all living things. Goku has pulled energy from people and animals repeatedly to beat the bad guy. In DC that force is called the Red. Why has no one looked to see if anyone wielding The Red (or the plant-based equivalent, The Green) can bypass Superman's defenses?

Also Sayians aren't heat-immune. (Vegeta vs. Magetta fight) We don't know what the resistance level is, but there's a very real chance that medium-output heat vision can bisect Goku.

[Lord Raziere]

Look. There's a really easy way to figure out if Goku can beat Superman. Ki is the energy of all living things. Goku has pulled energy from people and animals repeatedly to beat the bad guy. In DC that force is called the Red. Why has no one looked to see if anyone wielding The Red (or the plant-based equivalent, The Green) can bypass Superman's defenses?

Also Sayians aren't heat-immune. (Vegeta vs. Magetta fight) We don't know what the resistance level is, but there's a very real chance that medium-output heat vision can bisect Goku.

Because The Red is so obscure most people has never heard of it. I've never heard of it until you spoke of it.

also, ki makes plasma blasts like kamehameha, plasma is hot, heat vision since its a beam is also plasma, therefore Goku is resistant since he can withstand plasma.

[Anteros]

The important bit is that there is no other way to compare Goku and Superman's strength. Both of them are fast enough to be utterly silly no matter how you look at it (to reiterate, Goku's flight speed is faster than his teleportation) and both can break the universe by punching hard enough*. Death Battle asks who would win if they would fought, and this is the closest they can get to a measurement of strength. For once, I think they reasoned exactly right.

*and before anybody says anything about the circumstances and/or frequency of risking breaking the universe, there's no way of knowing if the Dragonball and DC universes are equally strong or not, so the effort required to break them isn't necessarily the same.

And my point is that saying "there's no way to compare them so we'll just make up some completely arbitrary metric that makes no sense and has no actual purpose as evidence" isn't a very good way to do things. If you can't compare them accurately then don't. Don't just make up a bunch of stupid nonsense and claim it's science.

I could just as easily say that Dragonball is a story about someone overcoming superior opponents and thus Goku should win by default since even if Superman is stronger he'd still lose. Sure, it's incredibly stupid, but it's basically the same type of argument. It's completely arbitrary. It's one of the most moronic things Death Battle has ever said...and this is a company thats entire business model revolves around making moronic and wrong statements to get people riled up.

[Devonix]

Because The Red is so obscure most people has never heard of it. I've never heard of it until you spoke of it.

also, ki makes plasma blasts like kamehameha, plasma is hot, heat vision since its a beam is also plasma, therefore Goku is resistant since he can withstand plasma.

Ki doesn't make Plasma Blasts it makes Ki blasts. plasma is Matter. Ki is Energy.

[Mato]

It's one of the most moronic things Death Battle has ever said.

I thought saying Goku would have killed him self if he blew up the sun so he wouldn't (something like a minimum of fifty four septillion megatons) and then a few minutes later they argue that according to Newton's third law the unreadable figures they assumed meant six hundred quadrillion megatons was also his maximum ki blast.

But I suppose we each can have our own favorite complaint about it, there are so many to choose from.

[Kato]

For the sake of my sanity (and supposedly other's) can we please ban the S and G words from this thread?

[Kantaki]

For the sake of my sanity (and supposedly other's) can we please ban the S and G words from this thread?

Soap and grain?
Okay, no problem

[Lord Raziere]

Ki doesn't make Plasma Blasts it makes Ki blasts. plasma is Matter. Ki is Energy.

....you do know its physically impossible for energy to have physical form right? and that there is a technique called Matter Materialization in Dragon Ball, that y'know, turns energy into matter, the Piccolo uses to make clothes. that matter and energy are y'know, equivalent? and since ki blasts have the ability to knock people back, and to burn, they must have physical properties, in other words, MATTER. y'know how form of MATTER burns things in beams and balls? PLASMA, like, the SUN, or, LASERS. So if Piccolo can make clothing in detailed manner, what is stopping all the blast techniques from just being "conjure plasma" techniques that are just really shapable? energy inherently needs matter to be within. lightning? just plasma, just energy flowing through atoms. even light has particles to it.

unless you show me the evidence for the sun being functionally different from any other large ball of ki. or how the Solar Flare? explicitly named because its blinds people. or how about the fact that you can just form weapons with ki techniques? act just as solid as regular ones. I mean, What is Ki anyways other than the energy of the entire universe? the energy within all living things, constantly symbolized by FIRE? y'know, auras of differently colored flame flowing around people? Ki is just heat and chemical energy taken to ridiculous extremes, not some weird energy separate from everything else.

[Chives]

I think if Ki was plasma, there'd be a lot more fires raging around in the background when characters start fighting. I could be wrong but it seems to function more as a kinetic force. I always thought those Ki balls they threw around were volatile kinetic energy in a restraining sphere.

Actually I'm sure of this. Krillin's thing is that he worked out how to make 'hard' Ki vibrate at cutting frequencies. That only works if he's using solid discs.