Let's Design: Justice League

[Lacuna Caster]

Here's an idea to connect/reconcile the more powerful outside invaders thing with the Superman is just short of a god thing. In the Marvel Avengers Alliance game, even street toughs can stand up to the likes of Hulk and Thor because of a mysterious empowering substance called Isotope-8 controlled by a Syndicate of villains and distributed to their underlings. In this case, it would be some 4th World/Apokolips smuggled in by Intergang. They go on crime spree with their new power enhancing tech and that sets the game in motion.

There was a similar plot device used in Injustice: Gods among Us, but I'd agree with Jayngfet that ideally, you want the squishier heroes or villains to feel useful because they can either outwit, outmaneuver (or just outnumber) the average flying brick.

With that said, I could imagine R&D being a sort of long-term equalising factor, once you figure out how to mass-produce lighter variants of power armour or serumise kryptonian DNA. (Conversely, biological research might help to 'unlock' certain metahuman's higher-tier abilities, if you're willing to dance a few rounds with CADMUS.)


The broad picture I had in my head was something like as follows:

Level 1 Batman has: 30 HP, 2 points of damage reduction from kevlar body armour, has dodge/parry/stealth skills that let him avoid 70% of attacks and does maybe 2-5 points of damage twice per round. Couple of other gadgets to make him useful.

Level 10 Batman has: 30 base HP, +100 bonus HP from a cybernetic batsuit that also grants 15 points of damage reduction. His stealth/dodge/parry skills let him avoid 90% of attacks and he does maybe 12-25 damage twice per round.

Level 1 Superman has: 250 HP, 8 points of damage reduction, has no dodge/parry skills to speak of, and does 20-40 damage once per round. No flight, no laser-vision.

Level 10 Superman has: Flight, laser-vision, and a couple of other tricks, 1000 HP and 25 points of damage reduction. Dodge/parry skills let him avoid 70% of attacks, while doing maybe 100-200 damage per round.


Now, on paper, level 1 Bats has about 100 'effective HP' (given his dodge-chance,) while Level 1 Supes still has 250 + DR. Level 10 Bats has 1300 effective-HP while Level 10 Supes has about 3300, but there's less relative difference in DR. So, in theory, while Supes is clearly drastically stronger at both points, it's at least helpful to pack Bats into the Javelin. In theory.

(Of course, whether you can squeeze Wonder Woman- with both super-strength and relentless martial training- or The Flash- with both rapid regeneration and insane dodge skills- into this framework is another question.)

[Anteros]

There was a similar plot device used in Injustice: Gods among Us, but I'd agree with Jayngfet that ideally, you want the squishier heroes or villains to feel useful because they can either outwit, outmaneuver (or just outnumber) the average flying brick.

With that said, I could imagine R&D being a sort of long-term equalising factor, once you figure out how to mass-produce lighter variants of power armour or serumise kryptonian DNA. (Conversely, biological research might help to 'unlock' certain metahuman's higher-tier abilities, if you're willing to dance a few rounds with CADMUS.)


The broad picture I had in my head was something like as follows:

Level 1 Batman has: 30 HP, 2 points of damage reduction from kevlar body armour, has dodge/parry/stealth skills that let him avoid 70% of attacks and does maybe 2-5 points of damage twice per round. Couple of other gadgets to make him useful.

Level 10 Batman has: 30 base HP, +100 bonus HP from a cybernetic batsuit that also grants 15 points of damage reduction. His stealth/dodge/parry skills let him avoid 90% of attacks and he does maybe 12-25 damage twice per round.

Level 1 Superman has: 250 HP, 8 points of damage reduction, has no dodge/parry skills to speak of, and does 20-40 damage once per round. No flight, no laser-vision.

Level 10 Superman has: Flight, laser-vision, and a couple of other tricks, 1000 HP and 25 points of damage reduction. Dodge/parry skills let him avoid 70% of attacks, while doing maybe 100-200 damage per round.


Now, on paper, level 1 Bats has about 100 'effective HP' (given his dodge-chance,) while Level 1 Supes still has 250 + DR. Level 10 Bats has 1300 effective-HP while Level 10 Supes has about 3300, but there's less relative difference in DR. So, in theory, while Supes is clearly drastically stronger at both points, it's at least helpful to pack Bats into the Javelin. In theory.

(Of course, whether you can squeeze Wonder Woman- with both super-strength and relentless martial training- or The Flash- with both rapid regeneration and insane dodge skills- into this framework is another question.)

So why would I ever use Bats? It's not a very satisfying system if half the characters are incredibly overshadowed by the other half, no matter how much sense it would make in-universe.

[Lacuna Caster]

Couple of possible answers so far:

* Bats might have support-skills, such as the ability to throw smoke grenades, hack terminals, plant explosives or perform recon unobserved that make up for low stopping-power.
* Bats might have significant logistic benefits, like research and funding bonuses, undercover work, or extra sidekicks.
* You don't! The idea sucks, let's go play in Gotham.
* If there's no hard limit on roster or team size, then there's no reason to leave him unused- when multiple crises occur you pull every warm body you can find.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm gonna hold off a little on luck/RP mechanics, so in the meantime there's a couple of new villains available to show up during missions, plus extra goons and hostages. Bare bones at the moment.

[TeChameleon]

Hmm... another possibility- and this is just spitballing, understand- perhaps heroes have a bonus against 'their' villains? If, say, the Joker is rampaging in Boston (or wherever they've stuffed poor Diana now), and runs up against Wonder Woman rather than Batman, he shoots at her, she does her usual bullets and bracelets schtick, except whoops, those weren't bullets, they were glass capsules full of Joker toxin, and Wondie's going on a little trip. Batman, of course, simply wouldn't fall for that. Or Batman goes up against Luthor, finds him in his super-suit, and confidently lobs an EMP batarang at him, to find out that whoops, it's running off of Apokoliptian tech and the EMP-arang doesn't do anything other than leave him standing in one spot for too long. Or something like that.

Or maybe certain villains simply don't activate certain powers against 'their' heroes? Mirror Master would never dump Flash in another universe (admittedly, partly because it would be kinda useless, since the Flash was the DCU's very first 'verse jumper), Black Adam would never just magic-lightning-fry Captain Marvel (again, partly because of dubious usefulness), Deadshot's not going to simply put a bullet between Batman's eyes (he pulls his shots around those he considers true heroes... odd psyche quirk, honestly, but it works)... eh, I don't know.

Honestly, the reason to bring any of the normals along with the League is never going to be about how hard they hit; it'll be what else they bring to the table. Blue Beetle II had a gimmick for every-friggin'-thing (maybe even moreso than the infamous utility belt), drove the bus (pretty much every League he was a member of cruised around in the Bug for longer-ranged missions), and was often the team's first responder medic. The fact that he couldn't punch through a two-foot steel wall mattered less when he could use any one of a number of widgets to remove it, from using the Bug's magno-beam to a cutting torch to whatever else. Batman, of course, has his wonderful toys and, more often than not, bankrolls the team, and is their tactician on the ground, along with being their resident sneaky-sneak type. Black Canary jumps weight classes surprisingly casually on the strength of her Canary Cry- sure, she can be taken out by some mook with a gun, but she can also sonic-scream guys in Superman's weight class into submission. And Green Arrow... is a bit of an odd case. He's the guy you call when you need small, yet significant holes put in things in very precise places. Or a boxing glove arrow. Or when you need a small army of ninja archers, I guess- Speedy/Red Arrow/Arsenal, Mia Speedy, Connor Hawke, Shado, Arrowette...

EDIT- Two other 'balance' thoughts that occurred to me; one is that the more often you bring along a specific hero, the more likely you are to run into one of their villains. Not so much a big deal if you run into Merlyn or the Penguin in the middle of an alien invasion, necessarily, but you might end up with some problems if Zod or Major Force show up while you're trying to evacuate a collapsing building or something.

The other thought was tied in to the X-Com-style funding-via-public-approval bit; if there are areas where the League simply isn't welcome, then dropping, for example, Superman, Green Lantern, Firestorm, and Aquaman (none of whom are exactly stealthy...) into, say, Bialya, could end end up with Queen Bee declaring war on the League, which could lead to widespread public disapproval and missions would get exponentially harder, since you'd need to be trying desperately to keep civilians (or even Leaguers!) from getting droned and turning on you while Brainiac is trying to flatten Central City, or whatever. On the other hand, sending in Batman, Huntress, the Atom, and the Crimson Avenger into Bialya is orders of magnitude more likely to go unnoticed, and thus not have undesireable consequences.

[endoperez]

It might get a bit tricky to balance, but instead of a bonus against thematic villains, maybe Batman's villains could be designed so that Batman's abilities work very well against them. They don't hit so hard that super-endurance is needed, their dastardly deeds include complicated plots that have to be analyzed with detective-work and computer hacking, and they're relatively easy to take down as long as you can score the hit before they run away. And something about gadgets.

Superman could do the punching and the capturing, sure, but wouldn't know to stop that thing at the Gotham Reservoir.

That'd mean that any other intelligent detective hero could stand in for Batman, of course. One of the Blue Beetles, say, or someone a bit off-the-wall like John Constantine.

Similarly, many flying bricks could stand in for Superman and do decently.

[Lacuna Caster]

It might get a bit tricky to balance, but instead of a bonus against thematic villains, maybe Batman's villains could be designed so that Batman's abilities work very well against them. They don't hit so hard that super-endurance is needed, their dastardly deeds include complicated plots that have to be analyzed with detective-work and computer hacking, and they're relatively easy to take down as long as you can score the hit before they run away. And something about gadgets.

Setting up elaborate villainous master-plans to decipher is definitely something I'd like to implement (and it would have to be an absolute top priority for a detective-focused game.) I'm still working on a dedicated logic-engine for that, but I might adapt something simpler here.

There was a smidgeon of detective-work in Enemy Within when it came to hunting down Exalt, but another model might be the simple procedural mysteries in Black Closet, which I rather enjoyed. I might try and brainstorm a few approaches.

However, if Mr. Wayne is only good for solving mysteries (and/or logistic support) then there's little or no reason for him to dress up in uniform and leave the relative safety of the watchtower (i.e, be a vigilante.) And the better his finance/forensic bonuses become, the more you have to lose from exposing him in the field.

The other thought was tied in to the X-Com-style funding-via-public-approval bit; if there are areas where the League simply isn't welcome, then.. ...sending in Batman, Huntress, the Atom, and the Crimson Avenger into Bialya is orders of magnitude more likely to go unnoticed, and thus not have undesireable consequences.

I like this idea. Stealth in general seems to be Batman's main trump card, and it's not to be undersold. (X-Com's ghost armour could absolutely wreck the aliens' day, for example.)

Speaking of which... Manhunter. Manhunter Manhunter Manhunter. ...What are we going to do with you?

[TeChameleon]

Setting up elaborate villainous master-plans to decipher is definitely something I'd like to implement (and it would have to be an absolute top priority for a detective-focused game.) I'm still working on a dedicated logic-engine for that, but I might adapt something simpler here.

There was a smidgeon of detective-work in Enemy Within when it came to hunting down Exalt, but another model might be the simple procedural mysteries in Black Closet, which I rather enjoyed. I might try and brainstorm a few approaches.

However, if Mr. Wayne is only good for solving mysteries (and/or logistic support) then there's little or no reason for him to dress up in uniform and leave the relative safety of the watchtower (i.e, be a vigilante.) And the better his finance/forensic bonuses become, the more you have to lose from exposing him in the field.

It could be as simple as just 'you have detective character X, Y, or Z' (Batman, the Question, Elastic Man, J'onn J'onnz, whatever), the game offers extra dialogue choices and/or highlights 'clues' on the map that you couldn't otherwise click on.

And if you want to dodge the 'Batman gives mega-moneys, so don't put him in danger' problem... mission-end bonuses only apply to characters who go on the mission.

I like this idea. Stealth in general seems to be Batman's main trump card, and it's not to be undersold. (X-Com's ghost armour could absolutely wreck the aliens' day, for example.)

Speaking of which... Manhunter. Manhunter Manhunter Manhunter. ...What are we going to do with you?

Well, if we're going by the comics, his main function is to clutch at his head and moan something about 'evil... so... overwhelming' before collapsing to illustrate the power and nastiness of the baddie-of-the-week, moan "Fire! My one weakness!" (or "Fire! My dread weakness!", depending) after being set on fire because the baddie-of-the-week is smart and prepared, rather than massively powerful (assuming that by 'Manhunter' you mean J'onn J'onnz, rather than Kate Spencer or any of the... was it really seven others..? that used the handle 'Manhunter').

And if we're following JLU's example, then you stuff him in the Watchtower, call him 'ops' and never let him out again until he retires and leaves the team.

... more seriously, for gameplay balance? Two simple options present themselves: one, he's bugger expensive to bring along, so if you bring him, then the rest of your team is going to consist of Snapper Carr, L-Ron and Vibe. The other is tying back into the public approval rating thing; if the Martian Manhunter is too high-profile in your missions, then people start getting nervous about the League, approval drops, you start losing permissions to operate in certain areas, funding goes down, villains start packing flamethrowers a lot more often, Lobo shows up working for the Collector (or whatever his DC equivalent is) to collect the Last Martian, whatever.

... or he could just be a bit of a Prima Donna, and when you use him too much, he wanders off to sulk ('meditate to clear his mind'... )

[Lacuna Caster]

It could be as simple as just 'you have detective character X, Y, or Z' (Batman, the Question, Elastic Man, J'onn J'onnz, whatever), the game offers extra dialogue choices and/or highlights 'clues' on the map that you couldn't otherwise click on.

And if you want to dodge the 'Batman gives mega-moneys, so don't put him in danger' problem... mission-end bonuses only apply to characters who go on the mission.

Another possibility is that forensic analysis is more effective if the analyst picks up the clues in person ("don't disturb the crime scene") so there are benefits to having gumshoes on the ground. It might or might not be enough though.

I'm a little curious as to how dialogue-options would work, but it would be simple enough for different crises to have 'secrecy' ratings that you have to overcome through sensor arrays, contact-networks and evidence-analysis. Otherwise, the heist might go ahead before you can even react (with the usual effects on crime/trust ratings.)


I have to say I preferred Aqualad/Ms. Martian in Young Justice to their adult counterparts, but here's my stab at a more detailed writeup on MM:

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Jonn Jonnz
Codename:	Martian Manhunter (numerous aliases)
Level 1 Stats:	40 HP, 3/s regen. 60% dodge. 5-10 damage 1x/round.
Level X Stats:	200 HP, 30/s regen. 85% dodge. 50-75 damage 1-2x/round.
Abilities
Regeneration	Regain health each round. Half damage from kinetic and non-AoE attacks, immune to critical hits, fast recovery between missions.
Diffusion	Allows flight, plus passage through doors, ventilation systems, etc. Bonus to stealth, vulnerable to AoE damage, cannot carry items.
Mimesis	Shapeshift to mimic a particular visible subject or prior civilian identity.
Ancestral Form	Frightens both criminals and civilians. Large bonus to damage, HP and armour, but lose regeneration.
Melding	Provide stress relief and partial regeneration to another team member, either during or between missions.
Psy Probe	Benefits interrogation and (in 'friendly' shape) diplomacy. Invasive use may cause trauma to both parties.
Telekinesis	(Requires Melding and Psy Probe.) Lift and throw objects or persons at range.
Martian Science	General bonus to psych research. Bonus to biology research from Regeneration, Diffusion and Mimesis.
Motives
In a Strange Land:	+1 Luck for every 100% increase in personal or national relations.
A Thousand Faces:	+1 Luck for 2 successful missions undercover.
Red Planet Blues:	+50% to all stress effects, -10% for every terraformed sector of Mars.

Ah, shoot, here's Batman as well:

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Bruce Wayne
Codename:	Batman
Level 1 Stats:	30 HP, 2 armour. 70% dodge. 2-5 damage 2x/round. 1x Batdrone with 10 HP, 2 armour and 1-3 damage/round.
Level X Stats:	130 HP, 15 armour. 90% dodge. 12-25 damage 2x/round. 3x Batdrone with 50 HP, 15 armour and 6-9 damage/round.
Abilities
Ninjutsu	Bonus to stealth, accuracy and evasion. Allows silent takedown of unwary foes. Cloaking field tech bonuses stack.
Batsuit	Bonus to armour and HP. Power armour tech bonuses stack.
Tactical Uplink	Hacking bonus, allows control of extra Batdrones. Adaptive encryption tech bonuses stack.
Intimidate	Bonus to interrogation, chance to reduce enemy morale.
Detective Work	Sizeable bonus to research efforts, particularly engineering or biology.
Wayne Foundation	Small bonus to global funding/trust, large bonus to funding/trust from Gotham.
War On Crime	(Requires Intimidate and Wayne Foundation.) Extra sidekicks available, Batwing serves as Javelin.
Utility Belt	Bonus to inventory space from Ninjutsu, Batsuit and Tactical Uplink. AP cost for items reduced. Items available include: Batarang, Explosive Batarang, Electric Batarang, Batclaw, Terminal, Medkit, Smoke Bombs and Night Optics, among others.
Motives
I Am Vengeance:	+1 Luck for taking down 5 enemies with prior records.
I Am The Night:	+1 Luck for 2 successful missions without being seen.
Brooding Time:	+33% stress reduction during solo missions or downtime.

[endoperez]

I'm afraid I've missed something. How come you're talking about dialogue? How does dialogue enter this? How are you going to change the game to allow for dialogue? It just feels so random on the X-Com frame. The closest to that I can think of are one-liners on pre-named characters á la Jagged Alliance, but it sounds like you're talking about actual dialogue trees. I don't see how they could be made to fit in.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm afraid I've missed something. How come you're talking about dialogue? How does dialogue enter this? How are you going to change the game to allow for dialogue? It just feels so random on the X-Com frame. The closest to that I can think of are one-liners on pre-named characters á la Jagged Alliance, but it sounds like you're talking about actual dialogue trees. I don't see how they could be made to fit in.

I'm guessing that some posters are approaching the concept from a traditional RPG perspective, where you might have NPC merchants or townsfolk-equivalents and a series of fixed plot-events. I agree that it might be an awkward fit for an X-Com/Jagged Alliance-type game, though.

You might be able to squeeze it into interrogation scenes or factional diplomacy, or something? Not my top priority at the moment, but I guess it's not impossible.

[endoperez]

Ah, that makes much more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[Lacuna Caster]

Heh, these are fun. It's almost like doing real work!

Wonder Woman:

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Diana Prince
Codename:	Wonder Woman
Level 1 Stats:	150 HP. 2 armour. 50% dodge. 5-10 damage 2x/round.
Level X Stats:	650 HP. 20 armour. 80% dodge. 25-50 damage 2-3x/round.
Abilities
Aegis Armour	Progressive bonus to armour values and parry skills. Resistant to non-critical damage. Chance to reflect ranged attacks at higher levels.
Martial Training	Bonus to accuracy, damage and evasion.
Discipline	Bonus to training drills, interrogation and team panic-resistance.
Born of Clay	Once per mission, may 'fuse with earth' to walk abroad in spirit form, regaining health upon return. Cannot use in space or indoors.
Heaven Sent	May expend 1 Luck to undergo a quest to recover a fallen comrade from the dead. Bonus to diplomacy.
Man's World	Bonus to trust and crime-reduction around Themyscira, choice of Amazon bodyguard or Steve Trevors each mission.
Caryatid	(Requires Born of Clay and Aegis Armour.) Adopt stone form, granting bonus armour, damage and HP, but no stealth/evasion.
Sacred Relics	Bonus to arcane research and access to additional unique items, based on levels in Martial Training, Heaven Sent and Man's World. Spear of Zeus (ranged plasma damage, hard to dodge) Sword of Ares (lethal melee damage, ignores armour) Golden Lasso (pull foes closer, bonus to interrogate) Winged Sandals (allows flight, faster evasion) Phoenix Robe (better first aid, light regen) Titan Armband (higher strength and HP)
Motives
Ambassador:	+1 Luck whenever a funding nation joins the League.
Paradise Won:	+1 Luck for every month (4 weeks) of world peace.
Word as Bond:	Stress effects for broken pledges and lost comrades +100%.

Superman:

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Clark Kent
Codename:	Superman
Level 1 Stats:	250 HP. 8 armour. 0% dodge. 20-40 damage 1x/round.
Level X Stats:	1000 HP. 25 armour. 70% dodge. 100-200 damage 1x/round.
Abilities
Solar Cells	Bonus to energy reserves to fuel powers. Vulnerable to nuclear damage. At higher levels, may absorb beam/plasma damage or ambient heat.
Integrity	Grants bonus armour and HP, halves kinetic damage. At higher levels, may extend (but weaken) field to protect nearby persons or structures.
Momentum	Bonus to strength, jump distance and move speed. At higher levels, grants flight and then relativistic flight.
Hyperception	Extends sight range, allows X-Ray Vision at high levels. Small bonus to engineering & biology research.
American Way	Bonus to global trust and diplomacy based on freedom and equality in member nations. Scales with level.
Fortress Builder	Reduces cost and repair/construction time of base facilities and infrastructure projects. Scales with level.
Eyebeams	(Requires Hyperception and Solar Cells.) Grants heavy, draining ranged attack that upgrades from beam to plasma to nuclear damage.
Kandor's Archives	May expend 1 Luck to gain a free technology. Small bonus to global wealth from American Way, Fortress Builder and Integrity.
Motives
Symbol of Hope:	+1 Luck for every 10 hostages rescued from captors or disaster.
No Hard Feelings:	+1 Luck for extending aid or pardon to 2 former enemies.
Son of Krypton:	+25% to all stress effects, +50% for killing.

Alright. Imma gonna be busy for the next week or two, but I think that's more than enough of an outline for the moment. Any thoughts or corrections are, of course, welcome.

[Ebon_Drake]

Manhunter. Manhunter Manhunter Manhunter. ...What are we going to do with you?

I'm guessing your point is that he's too powerful and versatile to be balanced, which I think has come up a few times already when people have mentioned characters like The Flash and Zatanna. I think a certain level of nerfing is necessary in order to have the characters function together in the same setting. It's an issue that already applies to the source material anyway, and it simply needs some goodwill and suspension of disbelief to get by. I'd say don't worry about what the upper levels of the character's powers are or what they could potentially do with them, just focus on representing what their core powers and abilities are. For Zatanna and other magic users, just make them typical D&D-style mages: squishy wizards with low armour and HP that have limited spellcasting abilities early on, but get much more powerful as they level up. For the Flash, just make him really speedy and have some neat tricks that key off that, but don't worry about any of the overblown craziness that he's done in the comics.

In Martian Manhunter's case, I'd say just apply the standard flying brick template and focus his unique abilities on his psychic and shapeshifting powers. You could also make him something of a multi-class power/detective type of character, so he can fit in either role but he isn't quite as tough or hard-hitting as Superman and he's not as good at investigating crimes as Batman. That seems to be exactly what you've done in your template for him already, so good on you. You could also emphasise his weakness to fire (i.e. it cuts through his armour, disables his regen and is likely to cause morale failure) to balance him in combat, particularly as that's likely to be a lot more common early on than something like Kryptonite.

I think giving him some moderate detective skills is actually a positive anyway, as the founding seven lean very heavily on the straight-forward punching types and otherwise would be relying almost solely on Batman for the investigation side of things. Having Manhunter as a backup detective would probably be a good thing until you're able to recruit another specialist for it.

The other option would be to go the Nu52 route and replace him with Cyborg in the starting JLA roster. Although my heart says that MM should be in the core seven, having Cyborg there actually makes a lot of sense for a game: he's much easier to balance for the early game and it would leave Manhunter to be a big powerful late-game addition.

And if we're following JLU's example, then you stuff him in the Watchtower, call him 'ops' and never let him out again until he retires and leaves the team.

I know you're joking, but this actually isn't a bad idea for preventing roster inflation. If you don't use a character often enough (either by leaving them at base or not doing anything in-mission), they eventually get annoyed and leave. It would encourage players to either keep their roster as a small, tight-knit group or to routinely cycle through their available characters so that they're all getting used. You could vary it by character too, so that J'onn is quite happy to just sit around coordinating things in base for a long time whereas Batman wants to constantly be out on the streets fighting crime.

Heh, these are fun. It's almost like doing real work!

Wonder Woman:

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Diana Price
Codename:	Wonder Woman
Level 1 Stats:	150 HP. 2 armour. 50% dodge. 5-10 damage 2x/round.
Level X Stats:	650 HP. 20 armour. 80% dodge. 25-50 damage 2-3x/round.
Abilities
Aegis Armour	Progressive bonus to armour values and parry skills. Resistant to non-critical damage.
Martial Training	Bonus to accuracy, damage and evasion.
Discipline	Bonus to training drills, interrogation and team panic-resistance.
Born of Clay	Once per mission, may 'fuse with earth' to walk abroad in spirit form, regaining health upon return. Cannot use in space or indoors.
Heaven Sent	May expend 1 Luck to undergo a quest to recover a fallen comrade from the dead. Bonus to diplomacy.
Man's World	Bonus to trust and crime-reduction around Themyscira, choice of Amazon bodyguard or Steve Trevors each mission.
Caryatid Form	(Requires Born of Clay and Aegis Armour.) Adopt stone form, granting bonus armour, damage and HP, but no stealth/evasion.
Sacred Relics	Bonus to arcane research and access to additional unique items, based on levels in Martial Training, Heaven Sent and Man's World. Spear of Zeus (ranged plasma damage, hard to dodge) Sword of Ares (lethal melee damage, ignores armour) Golden Lasso (pull foes closer, bonus to interrogate) Winged Sandals (allows flight, faster evasion) Phoenix Robe (better first aid, light regen) Titan Armband (higher strength and HP)
Motives
Ambassador:	+1 Luck whenever a funding nation joins the League.
Paradise Won:	+1 Luck for every month of world peace.
Word as Bond:	Stress effects for broken pledges and lost comrades +100%.

I like this, especially the motives part. I'd wonder how often the "month of world peace" one would actually trigger, though? It sounds a lot trickier to land than some of the others. I'm not sure about the earth meld and stone form bits, but won't complain about something emphasising the clay origin. Also, it should be Diana Prince, not Price.

I'm surprised you haven't explicitly mentioned the bulletproof bracelets (aside from the slightly vague Aegis Armour), I was thinking about her possible abilities earlier and had thought of giving her a combat skill of using them to deflect ranged attacks back at the shooter. I've not nailed down exactly how I'd want it to work though: random percentage chance? An upgrade to her defend/counter command? A skill on top of her standard defend command? Something else?

[TeChameleon]

*blink*

... y'know, a balance idea just hit me, and I think it just might work...

'Holding Back' or 'Damage Throttling' (or something to that effect) is a mode that massively increases AP cost, and scales to how much the characters have to hold back. So Superman punching Random Muggerguy #16 is going to mean that he can do one, maybe two more things that round, rather than just unloading on Mongul or whoever, when he can speedblitz big, mean, and yellow with a dozen full-force attacks per round.

Add in the fact that Superman does not kill, and causing him to do so (especially on Random Muggerguy #16, who will somehow inevitably have a disabled little daughter he's trying to care for, or an elderly grandparent, or be being blackmailed by an actual baddie, or something) will cause him to leave the team. And even the ones who are more comfortable with offing their enemies, like Wonder Woman (sometimes) is won't be too happy about wanton slaughter of non-threats (to them, anyhow), even if world opinion, funding, etc. isn't being taken into account.

Maybe even have 'Holding Back' being the default mode for most of the characters from the start, and potentially only possible to turn off after whoever the baddie in question is has been punched once or twice with limited/no effect under that mode (or, of course, if they're part of the character's own rogues gallery, and thus has presumably been fought before).

[Lacuna Caster]

@TeChameleon: I have a little of this implemented at the moment (Superman/WW get a x2 AP 'disarm' option that deals reduced, but purely nonlethal damage, and crushes an enemy's weapon.) I still need to implement proper stress effects, but I want to plug a few holes in the AI and dodge/parry stats first.

An interesting possibility would be to adapt the NPC AI routines associated with various abilities to the heroes themselves, such that only options with a high enough 'appeal' would be available to the player. If you mix in some relationship-simulation, that might give the effect you're talking about. e.g, Katana thinks: "I won't use my soultaker-move on random clowns, because honour and stuff, but man am I tired of running into the Joker. And I won't forget what he did to Barbara."


I quite like Ebon_Drake's idea of 'boredom' (or 'feeling underused/insulted?') being a stress effect, but I'm not sure that'll really circumvent the player's potential feelings on the subject. (I found the ways that heroes would refuse certain missions in Darkest Dungeon to be endlessly vexing, for instance, since they alternated suddenly between overweening pride and schizoid panic. Drama queens.)

I think giving him some moderate detective skills is actually a positive anyway, as the founding seven lean very heavily on the straight-forward punching types and otherwise would be relying almost solely on Batman for the investigation side of things. Having Manhunter as a backup detective would probably be a good thing until you're able to recruit another specialist for it.

The other option would be to go the Nu52 route and replace him with Cyborg in the starting JLA roster. Although my heart says that MM should be in the core seven, having Cyborg there actually makes a lot of sense for a game: he's much easier to balance for the early game and it would leave Manhunter to be a big powerful late-game addition.

Yeah... the classic JLA lineup essentially struck me as 'flying bruiser, flying bruiser, flying bruiser squared, running bruiser, swimming bruiser, sneaky detective dude who is also a flying bruiser, and Batman'. Anyway, glad you like the outline.

(Technically, fire-vulnerability is implied in the write up, since fire is a non-kinetic AoE damage type, and therefore bypasses all his defences. Heh heh heh.)

Cyborg's an interesting case, since his powers are tech-progress-dependent to an even greater degree than Batman's, and it's very easy to justify him coming back from near-death. If you could just nail down the motives, I could see him working rather like a MEC trooper in X-Com, with delicious juicy powers being offset by high maintenance & research costs. Theoretically.

I like this, especially the motives part. I'd wonder how often the "month of world peace" one would actually trigger, though? It sounds a lot trickier to land than some of the others. I'm not sure about the earth meld and stone form bits, but won't complain about something emphasising the clay origin. Also, it should be Diana Prince, not Price.

Ooh, good catch. I'll make a few tweaks.

WW's (apparently) had a lot of powers over the years, so I'm cherry-picking a good deal. I'd see Aegis Armour starting out with just the bracers and tiara, then extending to pauldrons, greaves and cuirass, and finally a full helm and hoplite shield, or something similar. You could work it as a set of inventory items too. I also reckon she should dress in the national colours of whatever country she visits, because that costume is whack. (Comics Alliance had some remarks on the subject, for those interested.)


EDIT: (By the way, when I said 'busy', I meant 'busy not writing code'. :P)

[TeChameleon]

@TeChameleon: I have a little of this implemented at the moment (Superman/WW get a x2 AP 'disarm' option that deals reduced, but purely nonlethal damage, and crushes an enemy's weapon.) I still need to implement proper stress effects, but I want to plug a few holes in the AI and dodge/parry stats first.

An interesting possibility would be to adapt the NPC AI routines associated with various abilities to the heroes themselves, such that only options with a high enough 'appeal' would be available to the player. If you mix in some relationship-simulation, that might give the effect you're talking about. e.g, Katana thinks: "I won't use my soultaker-move on random clowns, because honour and stuff, but man am I tired of running into the Joker. And I won't forget what he did to Barbara."

I quite like Ebon_Drake's idea of 'boredom' (or 'feeling underused/insulted?') being a stress effect, but I'm not sure that'll really circumvent the player's potential feelings on the subject. (I found the ways that heroes would refuse certain missions in Darkest Dungeon to be endlessly vexing, for instance, since they alternated suddenly between overweening pride and schizoid panic. Drama queens.)

If you want to keep from driving the players nuts with that kind of thing, what I've found to be a simple way to do it, at least for me, is simply transparency. Let the players know why the characters are or aren't doing something. That way, they can juggle the factors and it can potentially add depth to the simulation (and you could maybe throw in a 'reduced difficulty level' version that simply hard-codes the non-lethal, high-AP-cost moves to use on anything that isn't a monster or mega-villain for those that just don't want to deal with that kind of thing).

... and, of course, you'll always get the ones who will want to see if they can juggle the numbers to make Superman a psychotic murder-machine.

Hmm- it might be worthwhile to include a way to mitigate the boredom/feeling underused stress effect via AI-controlled off-screen 'solo missions' to maintain public goodwill, gain funding, send out for training, deal with their own nonsense, or whatever else you feel like including.

As a random irrelevant aside, for your Katana example, I'm not sure that using her Soultaker move on the Joker would be a great idea even for someone who didn't have the whole 'honour' thing going on... can you imagine what having his soul around all the time would do to you or your magic weapon or whatever?

Yeah... the classic JLA lineup essentially struck me as 'flying bruiser, flying bruiser, flying bruiser squared, running bruiser, swimming bruiser, sneaky detective dude who is also a flying bruiser, and Batman'. Anyway, glad you like the outline.

(Technically, fire-vulnerability is implied in the write up, since fire is a non-kinetic AoE damage type, and therefore bypasses all his defences. Heh heh heh.)

Cyborg's an interesting case, since his powers are tech-progress-dependent to an even greater degree than Batman's, and it's very easy to justify him coming back from near-death. If you could just nail down the motives, I could see him working rather like a MEC trooper in X-Com, with delicious juicy powers being offset by high maintenance & research costs. Theoretically.

Ooh, good catch. I'll make a few tweaks.

WW's (apparently) had a lot of powers over the years, so I'm cherry-picking a good deal. I'd see Aegis Armour starting out with just the bracers and tiara, then extending to pauldrons, greaves and cuirass, and finally a full helm and hoplite shield, or something similar. You could work it as a set of inventory items too. I also reckon she should dress in the national colours of whatever country she visits, because that costume is whack. (Comics Alliance had some remarks on the subject, for those interested.)

EDIT: (By the way, when I said 'busy', I meant 'busy not writing code'. :P)

Yeh, the whole 'Bullets and Bracelets' thing is (perhaps unfortunately) one of WW's most iconic powers. As far as her costume goes... meh. It's not exactly the most... whatever... of costumes, but the bloody thing's endured for 70+ years, so good luck changing it much now. I'd just grandfather-clause that crap in and not worry about it (also because... while I actually sort of like the whole 'costume changes depending on country'... could actually do a hilarious scene with that while she's doing high-speed flight over Europe or SouthEast Asia or some other area where countries are small and close together, if the change were automatic... but also because what the heck would her costume look like in, for example, Wales? Or Saudi Arabia? Would she suddenly sprout a scimitar or something?)

Don't forget that the Flash (at least the Barry Allen version) is CSI. So you've got a third detective-y type running around in there too. For that matter, Wonder Woman's original incarnation was built around going after Nazi saboteurs, so she was basically a detective-oriented MP... huh. Out of the original seven, only the Last Son of Krypton, the King of the Seas, and the Emerald Crusader didn't have any real detective underpinnings.

Speaking of Aquaman, he should be hilariously overpowered in any scenario that required deep-sea work. I mean, for land stuff, yeah, give him the massive strength, agility, bulletproof skin, and seizure-inducing basal-ganglia-scrambling telepathy ("He doesn't want to fight today. He has a headache."), give him the magic trident, give him the funky Atlantean tech, but as soon as he hits the water, you'd better be a low-tier cosmic threat at minimum before he even has to break a sweat. Seriously, this is the guy that kicks not-Cthulhu's tentacles in on an annual basis, ripped one of Cerberus' heads off with one hand (and then used that head to smash down the gates of the Underworld), and deals with potential extinction events on a startlingly regular basis. And also because anyone who tries to deal with Atlantean stuff by sending down Batman, the Flash, and Green Lantern deserves whatever they get

So do you have any thoughts at this stage about how (or if) you're going to expand the roster in the long run? I'd be sorta disappointed if I couldn't run a team of, say, Wally West Flash, Plastic Man, Blue Beetle II, and Booster Gold and snark the villains to death

[Lacuna Caster]

Nah... to be honest, I've been having enough trouble selecting a good lineup of primary villains, and I've already gotten way ahead of myself in terms of planning vs. implementation. I've barely given any thought to the various sidekicks.

I've got rough outlines for Flash, GL, Aquaman and Big Barda, plus Dr. Fate and the Hawks, and I'm leaning toward Luthor, Ra's al Ghul, Brainiac and Ares (future vs. past, order vs chaos) as the Ultravillains. If I ever manage to implement that much content, with maybe a couple of supporting characters, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

(I should also issue a gentle reminder that, my own brand of fanwank aside, in the chancy event this game actually gets a formal release, I'll almost certainly not be using the actual copyrighted DC characters. I'll probably need less specific iconography...)

[TeChameleon]

Nah... to be honest, I've been having enough trouble selecting a good lineup of primary villains, and I've already gotten way ahead of myself in terms of planning vs. implementation. I've barely given any thought to the various sidekicks.

I've got rough outlines for Flash, GL, Aquaman and Big Barda, plus Dr. Fate and the Hawks, and I'm leaning toward Luthor, Ra's al Ghul, Brainiac and Ares (future vs. past, order vs chaos) as the Ultravillains. If I ever manage to implement that much content, with maybe a couple of supporting characters, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

(I should also issue a gentle reminder that, my own brand of fanwank aside, in the chancy event this game actually gets a formal release, I'll almost certainly not be using the actual copyrighted DC characters. I'll probably need less specific iconography...)

If Barda is in, then please, please tell me that Mr. Miracle is also in. The two of them are too much fun together to drop one or the other. And if you're leaning as far towards 'Justice League International' as you seem to be from your early picks, I love it

As far as your 'gentle reminder' goes, I think I may have had my brain wander off to 'X-Com JLA mod' rather than what you were making... sorry >.O

Although that does beg the question of 'on a scale from one to Squadron Supreme, how closely do you want the finished product to resemble the League'?

[Lacuna Caster]

Ah, what the hell. Might as well get these off my chest:

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Barry Allen
Codename:	The Flash
Level 1 Stats:	25 HP, 2/s regen. 80% dodge. 2-5 damage 4x/round.
Level X Stats:	100 HP, 20/s regen. 95% dodge. 5-10 damage 8x/round.
Abilities
Speed Force	No AP cost for direct-line movement to visible areas. Small bonus to general AP and melee damage. At higher levels, can skim water and run along walls.
Lightning Reflex	Improves evasion, accuracy and critical chance. Small bonus to sight range and general AP.
Fast Healing	Regain health each turn, extra HP, faster recovery between missions.
Quick Study	Faster personal training and all-purpose research bonus.
Smooth Talker	Improved diplomacy with bonus for sexual tension and first impressions.
STAR Labs	Small bonus to engineering/biology research and funding in nations with high education. At high levels, permits research into Cosmic Treadmill.
Molecular Phase	(Requires Speed Force & Fast Healing) Reduce speed to boost stealth, ignore kinetic damage, and allow passage through walls and floors.
Predestination	Increased XP gain for sidekicks from Quick Study, Lightning Reflex and Smooth Talker. If Luck runs out and death occurs, primary sidekick has chance to gain all Flash abilities.
Motives
Passing the Torch	+1 Luck for 5 missions with an unharmed sidekick.
Turning Heads	+1 Luck on beginning a romance or earning a nemesis.
Too Slow	+50% stress for getaways or unattended crises.

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Several agents (2 of choice)
Codename:	Green Lantern
Level 1 Stats:	50 HP, 1/s regen, 6 armour. 40% dodge. 5-10 damage 2x/round.
Level X Stats:	200 HP, 5/s regen, 20 armour. 80% dodge. 8-15 damage 3-4x/round.
Abilities
Sensor Sweep	Reveals hidden opponents in chosen area. Outside missions, reduces chance of crises going undetected.
Shielding Aura	Provides immunity to suffocation or bleeding, slight regen, and bonus armour and HP.
Projectile Pattern	High-precision ranged damage. Reduces AP cost for attacks. May aim around corners or set waypoints, hard to dodge.
Architect Pattern	Erects walls and floors or reinforces existing structures while maintained. Assists in construction/repair of base facilities and infrastructure projects.
Holding Pattern	Traps and disarms opponents while maintained. Reduces odds of prisoner escape between missions.
Conveyor Pattern	Grants flight, improves evasion. May transport additional passengers up to construct limit.
Light of Oa	(Requires Shielding Aura and Sensor Sweep.) Increases total energy capacity and maximum simultaneous constructs. Grants relativistic flight. Allows Sensor Sweep to reveal spies and alignment.
Unconquerable Soul	Immune to panic effects. Bonus to resist stress and domination from Projectile Pattern, Architect Pattern and Holding Pattern. Increases maximum simultaneous constructs.
Motives
In Brightest Day	+1 Luck for 10 successful missions with another Lantern.
In Blackest Night	+1 Luck for foiling an Ultravillain.
Oathsworn	+100% stress for contravening orders from Oa. Must periodically return to Oa to replenish powers, be assigned orders, and undergo review.

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Arthur Curry
Codename:	Aquaman
Level 1 Stats:	150 HP, 4 Armour. 40% dodge. 15-30 damage 1x/round.
Level X Stats:	500 HP, 12 armour. 75% dodge. 50-100 damage 1x/round.
Abilities
Abyssal Blood	Can breathe underwater and see in near-darkness. Bonus HP and armour, stat penalties on land.
Ocean Voices	Free scouting on marine missions based on lack of squalor in affected area, bonus to psych research.
Surface Embassy	Small bonus to trust, recruitment and infrastructure in coastal member states.
Entangle	Root and disarm at range, with chance to KO. (Bonus for sidekicks.) With Ocean Voices, may also perform psychic probe.
Membrane	Create defensive barriers and air pockets. (Bonus for sidekicks.) With Surface Embassy, can speed transport to ocean crises.
Osmosis	Cure bleeding & poison, provide mild healing. (Bonus for sidekicks.) With Abyssal Blood, may regenerate health.
Atlantean Arts	(Requires Ocean Voices and Surface Embassy, Aquaman only.) Provides access to a variety of equipped perks over time: The Trident- bonus to damage, parry skills and hydrokinetics. Lady's Hand- bonus to healing abilities and hydrokinetics. Harpoon- ranged damage with high bleed and critical chance. Bathysphere Vest- bonus to armour & HP, can retain water on land. Honour Guard- atlantean bodyguards with animal mounts. Magitech- small passive bonus to all research.
Fluid Motion	Bonus to evasion, move speed and accuracy, particularly in water. Bonus for Aquaman, scales with Entangle, Membrane and Osmosis.
Motives
Adaptation	+1 Luck for every 3 ability-levels successfully retrained.
Worlds Collide	+1 Luck for each 100 points of fame or notoriety in surface nations.
Green Peace	50% stress reduction if Atlantis has zero crime and squalor.

Spoiler

Show

Name:	Scott and Barda Free
Codenames:	Big Barda and Mr. Miracle
Level 1 Stats:	(Barda) 200 HP, 6 Armour, 20% dodge. 25-50 damage 1x/round. (Scott) 75 HP, 3 Armour, 55% dodge. 2-5 damage 2-3x/round.
Level X Stats:	(Barda) 750 HP, 30 Armour, 65% dodge. 125-250 damage 1x/round. (Scott) 300 HP, 9 Armour, 85% dodge. 10-25 damage 2-3x/round.
Abilities
Rod Combat	(Bonus for Barda.) Improves melee damage, parry and accuracy. At higher levels, permits nonlethal short-ranged attack.
Heavy Metal	(Bonus for Barda.) Provides added armour, strength and HP.
Escape Act	(Bonus for Scott.) Improves evasion, stealth, and odds of escaping captivity. At higher levels grants access to Aero-Discs.
Multi-Cube	(Bonus for Scott.) General hacking bonus, and can perform a variety of single-use functions during a mission. Options available increase with level. Provides a small engineering and psych research bonus. Ranged beam attack Shield barrier Scouting action First aid & regen
Boom Tube	Provides short, medium or long-range teleportation.
Love Is A Battlefield	Less stress and panic-chance when deployed on missions together. Bonus to relationships during training and recovery times. Part of all XP is pooled.
New Genesis	(Requires Boom Tube and Love Is A Battlefield.) Small bonus to all research, plus education in member states.
No Gods, No Masters	Small bonus to chance of popular revolt in non-member nations. Effect scales with Rod Combat, Heavy Metal and Escape Act.
Motives
Rebellious	+1 Luck for toppling a government (x2 if totalitarian.)
Hardened	+1 Luck for Barda ending 3 successful missions while at least 33% injured.
Hands Off!	+50% stress for injury to Scott.

As for exactly how clone-y the final product might be... maybe a 6.5? I was thinking:

Corona- superman, but tuned a little more toward protection and light.
Banshee- batman with a dash of 'girl with the dragon tattoo'.
Galatea, Redline, Abyss, Imago- wonder woman, flash, aquaman, manhunter.
Jade Wa, Tonali, Vizor- asian-flavoured lantern, aztec-stargate hawkman, fate/cyclops.

Same basic concepts and concerns, but with a wider spread of nationalities and some rough edges rounded off.

[Lacuna Caster]

I should caution that I have exactly no exposure to primary materials for Aquaman, so the writeup there is equal parts Brave and the Bold, YJ Aqualad and Waterbending. It is emminently possible that the result is a mess which needs to be revisited.


I mentioned politics briefly, so I might as well cover this here, because the role of government is kinda baked into Green Lantern in a way that's not quite true of other JL members. Despite the freewheeling visual pyrotechnics, emotional rainbow-coding and vibrant multispecies roster, it's worth remembering that the Lantern Corps are a massively centralised monopoly of force with an explicit mandate to police the universe, anointed and empowered by a distant authority whom nobody elected. Which, depending on how you look at it, could be seen as terrifying.

My take it that Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, John Stewart and Hal Jordan sit at roughly equidistant and equally valid points along this spectrum, and I'm not saying they follow bad rules. But some of those clauses don't easily mix.

On the subject of powers: On reflection, I'd rather like to include some illusion or mimicry, since it seems like hard-light projections should be pretty good at that. (Also, universal translation.) So maybe some of the nuances got squeezed out.


But Barda & Mr. Miracle? They gotta fight the power.

[TeChameleon]

Aquaman is, quite honestly, a really, really weird character to try and get a grip on. What 'everyone knows' about the character is even more wrong than usual, thanks to Superfriends and a somewhat... inconsistent... grasp on his character by the writers.

Hydrokinesis has never been his thing in his original form- that was actually his wife Mera's schtick (she was basically a Lantern, but with water rather than coloured energy). For that matter, neither has the whole environmental protector thing (at least to my knowledge... I know a bit about Aquaman, but it's not as indepth as what I know about some other characters).

Mostly, he turns up when something threatens Atlantis and/or Earth, and kicks the threat's rear so hard that its ears pop when it farts. Which is pretty much a standard superhero MO, looking at it >.> Just his beat tends to be the oceans, which, as a few writers have realized, in a massive fantasy blender of a universe like the DCU, would be full of every horror that humankind has ever imagined to be lurking below the waves. And being the King of the Seas means that he gets to deal with all of them.

Aquaman is also a funny mix of high fantasy, science fiction, and mythic. DC Atlantis has a long and fabled history with wizarding and magic in general, and there's been more than one sorceror-king. But they're also one of the highest-tech nations on DC Earth, at least in terms of military technology. And, being Atlantis, they've also got a close connection to Greek Myth, and Poseidon is actively worshipped to one degree or another among many Atlanteans- heck, Aquaman was actually responsible for getting Poseidon out of Hades after Poseidon's idiot son killed him off.

All that being said, at his core, Aquaman is relatively simple. It's just the crazed accretion of 60+ years of publication with often no clear editorial direction for where the book was actually going that makes things very, very complicated >.O

Aquaman has the 'child of two worlds' thing going on. As such, he has more interest in the surface world than 'make those dumb ******** stop dumping their crap on our heads', which puts him a ways ahead of the average Atlantean. Secondly, he's the King of the Seas. If something bad goes down under the sea, he's the guy that is ultimately responsible for it, and being a rather hands-on sort of royalty, he usually will wander out there to bash trouble's face in. Being King of the Seas comes with certain perks beyond what the average land-dweller gets- he's strong enough that even Superman feels his punches, ridiculously fast and agile even on land (in water he can quite literally go supersonic), and durable enough that the pressure at the bottom of the Marianas Trench doesn't phase him in the slightest. And he has his telepathy. Depending on the writer, it ranges from 'talk to fish, and they'll help him out if he asks nicely' to 'absolute domination over any and all sea life, and can scramble the brains of anything that has marine life in its ancestry like an egg'.

He's had various supplementary weapons/powers/magic/whatever over the years; the most long-lived were his harpoon-hand (could be fired like a... well, harpoon... and had a retractable, and apparently indestructible, cable attached to it that he could swing from or reel in his abruptly-shishkabobbed opponent), which was replaced by his magic water hand that he got from the Lady of the Lake (... yeah, I have no idea either), which could do high-end healing, massive hydrokinesis, excorcism(?), and dispelling magic, and lately he's had Poseidon's Trident, which does lightning blasts, hydrokinesis, terrakinesis, and teleportation.

EDIT- And Scott and Barda gotta fight the power, true... but Scott's also the son of Highfather, whose rule he often supports >.>

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah... I've always been a little skeptical about Scott and Highfather being on entirely good terms. 'Hi there, Dad who I never met, thanks for bartering me to the worst entity in existence so I could grow up in hell.' (Though I guess the floaty city on New Genesis could be seen as the product of a prime-directive non-interference policy?)


Again I'm working off second-hand sources, but I think, as far as public perception and marketing is concerned, Aquaman suffers from the same problems as the Hawks- in the majority of circumstances (i.e, not underwater) there's nothing in particular he brings to the table that other JL founders can't do better. Anybody whose primary schtick is 'fast and punchy' is going to be overshadowed by, e.g, Superman, and that's assuming you can fly.

It's not necessarily a huge problem from a tactical/design perspective- I'm sure players will be perfectly willing to find uses for a second or third indestructible bruiser, especially if they come with nifty toys. But... I dunno. Feels like I'm missing something.


EDIT: (I can see a place for the Hawks, by the way, if you structure them around tactical aggression in a way that Superman/WW isn't known for. Hell, I've considered plugging in Swamp Thing for the environmental angle. Amanda Waller might even work as the 'Alfred' of the team, beside bringing in the Suicide Squad.)

[TeChameleon]

Eeeeh... from what I remember, Highfather's not exactly Scott's favourite person, but he IS the only real alternative to Darkseid, since he's really the only one powerful enough to seriously hold Darkseid off. And while Scott may not have any incredible amount of love for Highfather, he reeeeally doesn't like Darkseid. So... yeah. And the floaty city thing is... *checks*... apparently mostly just a Green thing, designed not to muck with nature, nothing to do with interference or otherwise. Oh, and if I'm remembering right, the treaty boiled down to 'we can swap sons as a binding peace treaty, or we can keep fighting and all be dead and floating in the asteroid field that used to be our planets sometime tomorrow', pretty much. So it was less 'barter' and more 'either just you gets screwed over, Scottie, or both planets get screwed over...'

As far as secondary sources go, take a quick Google for 'Aquaman Respect Thread' or some such- you should get a better idea of the Sea King. Or, even better, if you have access to it, (re)watch the Justice League Animated episodes The Enemy Below parts 1 & 2. One of the best renditions of Aquaman I've seen in any media.

And I don't feel that having an abundance of brick-types is necessarily problematic, especially not in an X-Com style tactical simulator, given that the original X-Coms were all about having a squad of largely identical, interchangeable soldiers.

That being said, almost all the bricks available to the JLA have some distinguishing mark, even just in terms of powersets- Wonder Woman has her Lasso, indestructible bracelets, and occasionally throwing-tiara, sword, shield, etc., Aquaman has the telepathy, superfast swimming, and occasionally the trident, Martian Manhunter has so many powers that you could ignore the brick aspect entirely and he'd still be one of the most powerful members of the team, Superman is... well, Superman... he's the guy that the entire archetype is based around, so... And the Flash, Green Lantern, and Batman aren't really bricks, per se.

In the non-Core-Seven groups, lesse... just thinking the tough brawlers here... Barda has her Mega Rod and Mother Box, the Hawks have their Thanagarian toys, Captain Marvel has his magic lightning (and turn-into-a-kid thing... and the Wisdom of Solomon, which the writers never seem to remember), Booster Gold has his forcefield, blasters, and Skeets (it's kind of weird how often Booster goes in for a straight punchup in his early days...), Orion has his Astro Harness and Mother Box, Power Girl has the quasi-Kryptonian thing (and the boob window..?) going for her, Hourman has his drug addiction and the whole time-theme thing (and occasionally powers..?) going, and Etrigan has hellfire and rhyming (and maybe magic).

Besides, it'd honestly be pretty rare to have a League member that hasn't gotten into a fistfight at some point... even guys who are primarily blasters, like Captain Atom, are fond of mixing it up in melee.

[Lacuna Caster]

All fair points. I'm inclined to keep the hydrokinesis, but might reserve that primarily for sidekicks or item-FX and buff his physical stats a bit.

There's no question that brawling would be as fundamental to the League as shooting is to X-Com (I really should work out a physics engine so you can punch the tougher customers through walls...) ...but, that said, there's no particular harm in having nice, complementary, non-overlapping specialties for the top-tier members. So if I can get away with tweaking the concept that way, I probably will.


Going back to an earlier point you raised, I was thinking that the game's 'tutorial sequence' could consist of picking a particular continent and a small roster of associated level-1 heroes defending their home turf. Then you'd battle street crime and second-string villains while getting an introduction to the basic mechanics, at the end of which they'd all be level-3 or so.

At that point, they have the clout, connections and technology to establish a central base of global operations, and the Justice League proper is formed, operating out of a ground facility like Mount Justice. The Watchtower doesn't become available until you research teleporter technology in the late-to-mid game (say, level 6 or so), and at that point you can establish 'jump pads' to local HQs on other continents. (This is JLU or Young Justice territory.)

Once the roster are around level 9-10, you'd have a full Orbital Ring constructed with additional bases on Luna, Mars, and other extrasolar colonies. (Legion of Superheroes.) The game ends when all your Founders are either dead, in hiding, or have retired from the League, and then you get an array of cinematics describing how the future turns out.



Oh, speaking of which- I sketched out an alternate history and then I couldn't stop. God help me.

Spoiler

Show

North America
Sectors:	Metropolis, Gotham, Coast City Complex, Kansas, Louisiana, Canada
Champions:	Superman, Batman, Flash
Modifiers:	New World Order- Resistant to internal warfare or popular revolt. Home of the Brave- More refugees, scientists, heroes and villains.
Notes:	Metropolis has merged with the DC area, so for practical purposes it's the US capital. Gotham seceded during the prohibition era and, like Canada, functions as a semi-autonomous protectorate.

Europe
Sectors:	Geneva, London, Iberia, Germany, Themyscira, Vlatava
Champions:	Wonder Woman, Amanda Waller
Modifiers:	Old World Order- Good and bad relations with outside nations are magnified. United Nations- Extra admin expense, funding bonus from capitols.
Notes:	A fractured US was less effective abroad, but the 3rd Reich went down through a combination of internal revolt and super-intervention in the early 60s. Amanda and Diana naturally gravitate to the UN HQ in Geneva.

Soviet Bloc
Sectors:	Markovia, Kaznia, Naukograd (Science City), Siberia, China, Korea
Champions:	Big Barda, Mr. Miracle
Modifiers:	Iron Curtain- Penalty to freedom & education, lower chance of defection or espionage. 9 Year Plan- Bonus to engineering & infrastructure, penalty to wealth & environment.
Notes:	Scott and Barda use a combination of guerilla insurgency and tech-trading to secure Kaznian independence and promises of reform from the USSR around the time of the Reich's collapse. Results are mixed.

South America
Sectors:	Santa Prisca, Superbia, Green Manaus, Mexico, Brazil, Andean Union
Champions:	Cyborg, Aquaman
Modifiers:	Nazi Bolthole- Increased crime and inequality, bonus to wealth & engineering. The Rainforest- Bonus to biology research and environment, slows infrastructure projects.
Notes:	Cyborg is assigned to the Ultramarines before their heel-face-turn and assists in constructing Superbia, while Aquaman's advisors have some practical interest in the world's largest watershed. Hijinks ensue.

Africa
Sectors:	Kahndaq, Nova Bialya, Simian Empire, South Africa, Egypt, Buranda (Mali)
Champions:	Dr. Fate, The Hawks
Modifiers:	Climate Vectors- Higher chance of plague & famine, bonus to biology research. Fragmentation- Higher chance of internal warfare or popular revolt.
Notes:	The Hawks have nominally Egyptian roots, and in theory anyone can wear the Helm of Nabu, so this seemed like a reasonable fit. Meanwhile, Black Adam, Queen Be and Grodd are livin' it up.

Oceania
Sectors:	Nanda Parbat, Saurian Islands, South Vietnam, India, Japan, Australia
Champions:	Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern x1 (other can be assigned to nation of choice.)
Modifiers:	Paper Tiger- Bonus to wealth & education, extra panic from doomsday events. Nationalism- Trust effects may be inverted in neighbouring countries.
Notes:	The situations in Vietnam and Korea are roughly reversed WRT crony-capitalism vs. basket-casing, while the League of Shadows spice up the jungle combat. Manhunter and GL keep a fragile post-war peace.

Other Sectors
Marine:	Atlantis, Hy-Brasil, Mu-Hiva, Marianas, Mediterranea, Sub Diego
Terran:	Mars 1, Mars 2, Mars 3, Mars 4, Luna 1, Luna 2
Stellar & Planar:	Oan Confederacy, Thanagar, Colu, Lexor, New Genesis, Apokalyps

[Lacuna Caster]

Dr. Fate is another character that I'm only secondarily acquainted with, but 'ultimate sorceror' seems like a premise that should sell itself, and it's not too hard to work off the 'lord of order' and 'power corrupts' angle. Anyone got the skinny on this dude?

The Hawks:
I've been a little baffled by Hal and Shayera's handling over the years, given that all the essential aspects of the premise have been adapted with great success by the Stargate franchise. Seriously, look at these guys. Looking totally badass, with a cohesive, fleshed out background setting and history that gels mythology and alien science, kewl weaponry, government forensics and political subversion- right down to the mineral-phlebotinum, resurrection cycle and hydraulic despotism. Boom, done.

Captain Marvel:
In terms of seniority, power-level and historical importance, he's definitely up there, but I'm not sanguine about having a 10-year-old Robin on the team, and it's hard to completely ignore Billy Batson without somewhat missing the point. (There's also the utterly repugnant history of his forceful expropriation by DC to contend with, which kinda makes me want to stick him in a parallel universe with zero crime and say 'take that!')

That said, superheroes have always been interpretable as exaggerated metaphors for adulthood- power, responsibility, secondary sex characteristics- and it's interesting to see a case that closes the circuit so directly. (It's also rather intriguing that he'd eventually spin off Black Adam, all of people. Sign of the times, I guess.)


EDIT: It appears I didn't get the memo on the latest incarnation of Fate, so that simplifies matters. A google search for "Doctor Fate personality" returns almost no meaningful results (it rarely does for random supers,) but there's some interesting fanwank on the DCAU version here.

I might imagine Fate working as the archetypal Batman Wizard, right down to memorised spellcasting and elaborate scrying techniques, but it's the Helm's inhuman bond with it's human host that seems to generate long-term dramatic tension. Not certain how to go about modelling that.

[TeChameleon]

I can't claim to know a great deal about Dr. Fate- he's used more as a plot device than a character surprisingly often, at least in the team books.

But if you want dramatic tension from the clash between Nabu and Kent Nelson (or whoever you have wearing the mask)? Nabu has his own goals, and they may not line up with the League's. And even when they do, his methodology may be a bit more... extreme... than the League is usually willing to sanction. The way I'd do it, at least, is make Fate phenomenally powerful- completely, utterly, game-breakingly so... and then have it so that the more power he calls upon, the greater the chance that he'll 'fall under Nabu's control', becoming an NPC that is working for his own purposes (and, since the Lords of Order can be kind of *****, that loss of control might not be very good for local property values...). Oh, and he's definitely not a Vancian caster- more of the 'wiggle fingers, get lightshow' variants. And for that matter, in the appearances that I'm familiar with, he didn't tend to go in big for prep time or anything- he'd just show up and bull his way through with absurd levels of magical power. Although teleportation has kind of always been his wheelhouse, now that I think about it.

As for the Hawks, the difficulty we've got there is that there were originally two different Hawk pairs- one from Earth One (Thanagarian cop Hawkman), and one from Earth Two (reincarnating Egyptian prince Hawkman). Aaaand they were actually both running around in the DCU after the Crisis on Infinite Earths, since Earth One and Earth Two became New Earth (despite the fact that the vast majority of the Earth Two-ers who had noteworthy Earth One counterparts got themselves killed off during the Crisis... the only survivors I can remember offhand are the Flash, Green Lantern, and the Hawks). Then someone got the bright idea to moosh both versions together after one of them got himself retconned out of existence... at that point, it all went rapidly downhill, since no-one could keep track of where he was supposed to have come from or what his actual gig was. Only one who's got it worse in that department is Power Girl >.O

Captain Marvel is one of those oddball heroes who simply hasn't translated well into modern times (seriously, his origin had him blithely following the first stranger who told him to into the subway tunnels, immediately after he'd told the guy he didn't have anyone that would miss him. In modern times, that reads like the setup for a horrific tragedy, not a superhero origin >.<), but whose concept is simply too good to just drop, even if the writers never remember that he's supposed to have the wisdom of Solomon, or necessarily agree on exactly what that means -_-; And while I'd tend to agree that having a 10-year-old Robin is sort of questionable (even in a superhero universe, I'm sorry, but unless the kid has superpowers of his own, he's not going to be able to get into fistfights with people who are three times his mass with the slightest hope of winning), assuming the League knows that Captain Marvel is really prepubescent, there is a certain logic in keeping the guy close to hand and making sure that he learns what he's doing. Otherwise, you've got what's tantamount to Superman with a child's mind, trying to learn as he goes. Which... doesn't strike me as the wisest course of action.

[Lacuna Caster]

But if you want dramatic tension from the clash between Nabu and Kent Nelson (or whoever you have wearing the mask)? Nabu has his own goals, and they may not line up with the League's. And even when they do, his methodology may be a bit more... extreme... than the League is usually willing to sanction. The way I'd do it, at least, is make Fate phenomenally powerful- completely, utterly, game-breakingly so... and then have it so that the more power he calls upon, the greater the chance that he'll 'fall under Nabu's control', becoming an NPC that is working for his own purposes (and, since the Lords of Order can be kind of *****, that loss of control might not be very good for local property values...).

I like the sound of that. Probably leaning more toward the 'strategic enforcement, collateral be damned' end of the spectrum than random demolitions, but yeah, that feels like a compelling hook. If vancian casting doesn't work, I might try a system of agglutinative power-words and metamagic for flexibility, but the idea of using foresight and deterministic planning does fit the 'Fate/Order' motif, so I'd like to inject it in some form.

I might stick a pin in that for the moment anyway. I need to start focusing on implementing a small core starting roster, so... if one breaks down the current auditions by sub-genre and fudge things a bit, you might get:

Wonder Woman, Fate, Shazam, Aquaman- magic/antiquity/other realms.
Batman, Manhunter, Cyborg, Amanda Waller- urban/political, relatively hard science.
Superman, Flash, Barda, Miracle, Hawks & GL as action/space-opera, relatively soft science.

Batman is my first love, so I was thinking I might run with the middle row starting out, toss in a few sidekicks, then integrate Scott/Barda plus the Hawks for continental coverage. It runs a little 'dark', but that mostly allows me to stick with a single terrain-set and possibly narrows the power-gap. Alternatively, I could stick with the classic trinity and branch out from there, ignoring any zany extradimensional antics for the present. Thoughts?

Then someone got the bright idea to moosh both versions together after one of them got himself retconned out of existence... at that point, it all went rapidly downhill, since no-one could keep track of where he was supposed to have come from or what his actual gig was. Only one who's got it worse in that department is Power Girl >.O

Random aside- I know folks aren't necessarily crazy about Diana's costume in BvS, but in fairness, Xena was basically wonder woman with a coherent setting, skillset, backstory and character development. I gather Greg Rucka and Gail Simone have done good work with the amazon in recent years, but there was a lot of catching up to do.

...assuming the League knows that Captain Marvel is really prepubescent, there is a certain logic in keeping the guy close to hand and making sure that he learns what he's doing. Otherwise, you've got what's tantamount to Superman with a child's mind, trying to learn as he goes. Which... doesn't strike me as the wisest course of action.

I'd say it's not a question of weight class so much as survivability- I can accept that with enough talent, training and some dirty tricks, robin might be able to hold his own, most of the time. It's just that willingly endangering the physically (and emotionally) vulnerable is among the least heroic things an adult can do.

Teenage supers are a little more of a grey area, since at that point you can imagine Billy or Cassandra being put through the watchtower's Danger Room curriculum for 5-10 years with a severe case of cabin fever and some non-trivial skills to show. Maybe the game could allow specifically for VR 'training missions' that let you level up sidekicks without risk of deadly harm, and/or you could add some steep additional stress effects for injury/death to juveniles?

(Time scale is another salient variable here- depending on just how frequently crises pop up, and for what reasons, it might be possible for promising candidates to enroll during pre-pubescence, then be given a few milk-runs in their teen years before graduating to the full roster or pursuing other careers in their twenties. A 'school for gifted youngsters', if you will...)

[TeChameleon]

I like the sound of that. Probably leaning more toward the 'strategic enforcement, collateral be damned' end of the spectrum than random demolitions, but yeah, that feels like a compelling hook. If vancian casting doesn't work, I might try a system of agglutinative power-words and metamagic for flexibility, but the idea of using foresight and deterministic planning does fit the 'Fate/Order' motif, so I'd like to inject it in some form.

Not 100% sure what you mean by that, so can't really comment :/

Fate's always been pretty handwave-y when it comes to casting, though; his fate schtick tends to manifest more as a sort of deterministic personality.

I might stick a pin in that for the moment anyway. I need to start focusing on implementing a small core starting roster, so... if one breaks down the current auditions by sub-genre and fudge things a bit, you might get:

Wonder Woman, Fate, Shazam, Aquaman- magic/antiquity/other realms.
Batman, Manhunter, Cyborg, Amanda Waller- urban/political, relatively hard science.
Superman, Flash, Barda, Miracle, Hawks & GL as action/space-opera, relatively soft science.

Batman is my first love, so I was thinking I might run with the middle row starting out, toss in a few sidekicks, then integrate Scott/Barda plus the Hawks for continental coverage. It runs a little 'dark', but that mostly allows me to stick with a single terrain-set and possibly narrows the power-gap. Alternatively, I could stick with the classic trinity and branch out from there, ignoring any zany extradimensional antics for the present. Thoughts?

The middle row runs into two major problems that I can see right off; the first being that I'm still not clear on how you're going to implement the Wall in-game; Amanda Waller is a brilliant tactician, a political shark of the first order, and the ideal commander (as long as you're not under her ). That being said, she's also a 50-something (ignoring the imbecilic nu52 version), overweight woman with no superpowers, bat-gimmicks or even uber martial arts. What's she going to do, exactly? The other being, your first pick for your alpha build characters are J'onn and Batman? That's gonna be a fun one to balance

Honestly, unless it'd be way too much work or some such, I'd roll with the Founding Seven and work from there.

Random aside- I know folks aren't necessarily crazy about Diana's costume in BvS, but in fairness, Xena was basically wonder woman with a coherent setting, skillset, backstory and character development. I gather Greg Rucka and Gail Simone have done good work with the amazon in recent years, but there was a lot of catching up to do.

Y'know, from what little I've seen of the Wonder Woman outfit in BvS, it's not really that bad, aside from one thing: it's waaaaay too brown. Up the saturation on the colours some, and it'd look pretty much fine to me (even if it is a bit weirdly strappy-looking, but eh).

I'd say it's not a question of weight class so much as survivability- I can accept that with enough talent, training and some dirty tricks, robin might be able to hold his own, most of the time. It's just that willingly endangering the physically (and emotionally) vulnerable is among the least heroic things an adult can do.

Teenage supers are a little more of a grey area, since at that point you can imagine Billy or Cassandra being put through the watchtower's Danger Room curriculum for 5-10 years with a severe case of cabin fever and some non-trivial skills to show. Maybe the game could allow specifically for VR 'training missions' that let you level up sidekicks without risk of deadly harm, and/or you could add some steep additional stress effects for injury/death to juveniles?

(Time scale is another salient variable here- depending on just how frequently crises pop up, and for what reasons, it might be possible for promising candidates to enroll during pre-pubescence, then be given a few milk-runs in their teen years before graduating to the full roster or pursuing other careers in their twenties. A 'school for gifted youngsters', if you will...)

Boy, that'd make the base defense missions interesting...

Speaking of Robin: the Damian Wayne variant is somewhat less than emotionally vulnerable. So screwed up emotionally that he's more than a little crazy yes, vulnerable, no. I got the impression that Bats stuffed him into the pixie boots less because he needed a sidekick and more because he needed a way to keep the kid-shaped killing machine that happened to share his genes at least marginally under control, or at the very least pointed at the criminals.

A lot of the more modern takes on the sidekicks and teen heroes tend towards either the 'headstrong kid/teen jumps in with both feet, gets taken on as a sidekick to keep them from getting killed and/or killing someone/everyone' bit, or else the 'kid/teen gets powers/maguffin, trouble comes to them' bit. Cassie, forex, quite literally stole a couple of pieces of Diana's gear to get in on the super brawls that were happening- the whole 'superpowers/daughter of Zeus' thing came along a fair bit later. And the current Blue Beetle, Jaime Reyes, inadvertently got a piece of alien ultra-tech fused to his spine, and hijinks proceeded to ensue, given that the aliens in question either wanted it back, or his will subsumed to the AI programming that was supposed to be in said ultratech (and him helping them to take over the world, which they planned on doing with or without him).

As far as Billy goes, when I commented on his weight class, I was thinking more that any of his 'oops' moments would be less 'I spilled milk on my new shoes' and more 'I slapped Black Adam too hard and caused tens of thousands of deaths when his landing knocked down a couple of square blocks of Fawcett City'. The League would have a pretty vested interest in keeping a sharp eye on him.

All that being said, I'd say an amped stress effect for the death/injury of child characters would be good in general- I mean, if Superman failed to save someone, he'd be pretty broken up by it, but if he failed to save a child? Eesh...

[Lacuna Caster]

Not 100% sure what you mean by that, so can't really comment :/

I was suggesting something like being able to chain together different 'magic words' to the effect of [Fire damage][20'' blast radius][3 second duration], or [ward physical attacks][on teammate][20 second duration], et cetera. Basically being able to mix & match different spell permutations as the situation demands. (A little like Magicka, though I'm sure there are TTRPG precedents as well.)

Thing is, while I can sympathise with folks who like their sorcery to feel open-ended and powered by narrative, it's still a vidja game- either rules are rules, or a machine can't run it. Anyway, just a thought.

The middle row runs into two major problems that I can see right off; the first being that I'm still not clear on how you're going to implement the Wall in-game; Amanda Waller is a brilliant tactician, a political shark of the first order, and the ideal commander (as long as you're not under her ). That being said, she's also a 50-something (ignoring the imbecilic nu52 version), overweight woman with no superpowers, bat-gimmicks or even uber martial arts. What's she going to do, exactly? The other being, your first pick for your alpha build characters are J'onn and Batman? That's gonna be a fun one to balance

Honestly, unless it'd be way too much work or some such, I'd roll with the Founding Seven and work from there.

I'm planning to nerf J'onn substantially anyway, and Amanda is pretty easy to include as long as there's no expectation of regularly leading ground missions (which is fine, because she rarely does.) Her benefits would be almost exclusively logistic- CADMUS research, the Suicide Squad, strongarm diplomacy, government slush funds, and the like, with a portion of XP siphoned off from whatever field operatives she provides or supervises.

Basically, she'd be at the furthest end of the grounded/fanciful, pragmatic/idealist, sneaky/punchy spectrum, with, e.g. Cap Marvel occupying the other extreme. But you're right, the usual founders might be easier to work with. Have to see.

Y'know, from what little I've seen of the Wonder Woman outfit in BvS, it's not really that bad, aside from one thing: it's waaaaay too brown. Up the saturation on the colours some, and it'd look pretty much fine to me (even if it is a bit weirdly strappy-looking, but eh).

True dat.

I don't have much to add on the subject of sidekicks, but I would say that introducing Billy as inadvertantly responsible for massive battlefield collateral might not be the best way to do homage to his particular oeuvre... Superman has significant scope for interpretation if you go back to his earliest roots, but if I cover Marvel at all (or even a non-lawsuit-inviting expy version,) I wanna do right by Ms. Fawcett. Somehow.