Is World of Warcraft worth playing?

[Gnoman]

I've dabbled in a few MMOs, and it has been nagging at me that I've ignored the elephant in the room. Not only is World Of Warcraft interesting from a historical standpoint (as the oldest MMO that's under active development, and the one that most newcomers compare themselves to), but it is such a widespread phenomenon that I encounter a WoW reference once or twice a week (even assuming that there's none I'm missing because they aren't called out).

My question is this. Does WoW work well as an entertaining and enjoyable game, or is it just dominant due to inertia and enjoying the benefits of having said cultural presence? I could easily get my MMO fix by renewing my FFXIV or EVE subscriptions, after all; and there's little point in playing it purely for academic purposes.


My second question is how the expansions work. I know the game's had about eleven trillion of the things, and that at least some are now integrated into the base game, but I'm really confused past that point.

[Seerow]

I've dabbled in a few MMOs, and it has been nagging at me that I've ignored the elephant in the room. Not only is World Of Warcraft interesting from a historical standpoint (as the oldest MMO that's under active development, and the one that most newcomers compare themselves to), but it is such a widespread phenomenon that I encounter a WoW reference once or twice a week (even assuming that there's none I'm missing because they aren't called out).

My question is this. Does WoW work well as an entertaining and enjoyable game, or is it just dominant due to inertia and enjoying the benefits of having said cultural presence? I could easily get my MMO fix by renewing my FFXIV or EVE subscriptions, after all; and there's little point in playing it purely for academic purposes.


My second question is how the expansions work. I know the game's had about eleven trillion of the things, and that at least some are now integrated into the base game, but I'm really confused past that point.

If you like MMOs as a genre, I would recommend playing it. The quest storylines aren't going to measure up to the storytelling of single player AAA games, but they are interesting and have improved greatly over the years. Legion I enjoyed a lot just leveling, even if I haven't had the time to play regularly much since maxing out.

As far as Expansions, generally all expansions except for the current expansion get bundled into the base game. So I'm pretty sure if you go buy a copy of World of Warcraft today, you get everything up through Warlords of Draenor (the second to most recent expansion, lets you level to 100). Right now this is actually on sale for 10 dollars, and I am reasonably certain includes a 1 month sub (normally 15 dollars), so if you have any interest... this is a super cheap way to test the waters. After that you would just need Legion, the current expansion. A new expansion is slated to hit later this year, but there's no release date yet.

[The_Jackal]

My question is this. Does WoW work well as an entertaining and enjoyable game, or is it just dominant due to inertia and enjoying the benefits of having said cultural presence? I could easily get my MMO fix by renewing my FFXIV or EVE subscriptions, after all; and there's little point in playing it purely for academic purposes.

I still think WoW is among the best MMOs on the market, even after 12 years. Now, I preferred it in the Wrath of the Lich King era, because after that point, they original developers rotated off to other projects (Like Project Titan, what wound up becoming Overwatch), and the game went through a big 're-design everything' phase, during which much of the detail, complexity, and depth was removed to make the game more accessible and easier to balance/maintain. But even in light of that, the core game is still pretty solid. There's certainly tons of content, and if you don't mind the dated engine, you can have a lot of fun questing through classic WoW content.

My second question is how the expansions work. I know the game's had about eleven trillion of the things, and that at least some are now integrated into the base game, but I'm really confused past that point.

Every expansion they raise the level cap and maximum item level, which effectively slaps on a new tier of endgame gear. So, levels 1-60 = Vanilla. 60-70 = Burning Crusade. 70-80 = Wrath of the Lich King. 80-85 = Cataclysm. 85-90 = Mists of Pandaria. 90 - 95 = Warlords of Draenor. 95 - 100 = Legion. Next will be Battle for Azeroth. But really, apart from offering content scaled to a particular level, the expansions don't really matter too much, apart from whatever one is current. If I had to rate each expansion, for myself, I would put the order, from best to worst:

1) Wrath of the Lich King - Golden Age WoW. Best story, best quests, really the apogee of the game from a polish and refinement standpoint.
2) Burning Crusade - Still a step up from Vanilla, and not quite reaching the levels of polish of Wrath, BC is still very fun, and has lots of good content.
3) Vanilla - So much cool content, and still holds its own, though you can't see as much of it now that they revamped & streamlined a bunch of content for Cataclysm.
4) Mists of Pandaria - Surprisingly good story, cool setting, with good dungeons and encounters. On the downside, starting to buckle under the weight of feature creep and the addition of Pokemon clone and Farmville clone into the gameplay.
5) Legion - A strong rebound from the low point of the entire game, but also shows the game to be struggling with ways to cope with the narrative of players who have killed their Gods and ingested their Godseeds (in other words, why are these beings of near limitless cosmic powers once again being asked to go and beat up moose-people?).
6) Cataclysm - The first wrong turn for the franchise. There's some good zones to level up in, but the endgame and dungeons were an over-correction from late Wrath where players complained about the low level of challenge from content they'd outgrown. Highly frustrating, mechanically difficult mechanics abound, and the first steps towards dumbing down the class systems and itemizations are taken here.
7) Warlords of Draenor - This expansion was a dire misstep. Late in the development of Mists of Pandaria, the developers added a queue for endgame raid content, plus a 'sandbox/grind' zone called the Timeless Isle. Timeless Isle was well received and rewarding, because it offered a fun change of pace from the normal endgame treadmill, however they used that design way too enthusiastically in WoD, turning every zone, and every quest into a sandbox style encounter. More story-driven, quest-type content was dropped for area grinds and scavenger hunts. They also added the first attempt at player housing, your own 'Garrison', which is a mini walled fortification, which you would develop and manage. This idea, while ambitious, and initially fun, wound up backfiring horribly, as collecting loot from managing your garrison wound up being far more lucrative than, you know, playing the game. Economy wrecked, community in tatters, and developer scrambling to fix things in Legion, which, to their credit, they mostly did.

You can play the first 20 levels of WoW for free, there's a lot of content there. So my advice is pick a race that you like the look of, and a class that appeals to you, and play them to 20. Then do it again on a different race/class, preferrably on the opposite faction. If you're still engaged after 40 levels of vanilla WoW, you'll likely enjoy the game enough to shell out some money for it.

[Sinewmire]

Yes, providing you actually engage with other players by joining a guild and interacting with them. The MM bit of MMORPG. It can get a bit dull/lonely if you don't.

A lot of humour.

[factotum]

You can play the first 20 levels of WoW for free, there's a lot of content there.

This--it's free to try it out, so why not try it out? The first 20 levels would be plenty enough content for you to know how well you like the way the game plays even if it only had as much as it did in vanilla (the last time I played it myself).

For myself, I actually found the game far more enjoyable at the early levels when it was really just a solo RPG with an active chat program attached--when you get to the point of actually having to party up to do instances is when I found it the least fun. That's probably changed in the 12 years since I last played, though.

[Artanis]

I've dabbled in a few MMOs, and it has been nagging at me that I've ignored the elephant in the room. Not only is World Of Warcraft interesting from a historical standpoint (as the oldest MMO that's under active development, and the one that most newcomers compare themselves to), but it is such a widespread phenomenon that I encounter a WoW reference once or twice a week (even assuming that there's none I'm missing because they aren't called out).

My question is this. Does WoW work well as an entertaining and enjoyable game, or is it just dominant due to inertia and enjoying the benefits of having said cultural presence? I could easily get my MMO fix by renewing my FFXIV or EVE subscriptions, after all; and there's little point in playing it purely for academic purposes.


My second question is how the expansions work. I know the game's had about eleven trillion of the things, and that at least some are now integrated into the base game, but I'm really confused past that point.

I haven't played WoW in a very, very long time (not since early Burning Crusade), so my experience is significantly out of date. Even then though, I might be able to contribute to the discussion a bit:

When I played WoW, I found it to be legitimately a good game. If it was a single-player game, just me wandering around the world of Azeroth by my lonesome, I still would have thought it was worth what I paid for it. Playing it with friends made it just that much better. Since it's now free to get started, it's probably worth checking out.

[Rodin]

One warning about the early level vanilla content (at least, as of Cataclysm, which is when I left the game): It's been significantly dumbed down since the game was originally released. Early content is much, much easier than it used to be because Blizzard doesn't want players mucking about in the old content. They want people getting into the newer high level content.

When I rolled a new character at that time, I found that I could have stuck my cat in front of my keyboard to beat the early quests.

[Psyren]

Pros: The current patch has implemented level scaling throughout the entire world. This lets you actually experience the quest storylines they've built into the old world the way they were intended, without outleveling them so fast that they become meaningless. The XP you get from dungeons has dropped too, pushing players more to questing than to simply queuing up, and the content is now (at least supposedly) actually challenging, even for the folks decked out in heirlooms - requiring you to be careful how you approach mobs, and even stop to drink after a few pulls again depending on your class and gear.

Cons:Battle For Azeroth's premise doesn't interest me nearly as much as Legion's did. In fact, it's the least interesting premise for an expansion I've seen - even worse than Warlords of Draenor, which at least had some lore about the Draenei, orc clans, and a bit about the Legion to entice me. There might be some revelation with the Azerite that catches my eye (particularly where it's popping up) - but for now, returning to the old Horde/Alliance tensions with no clear greater threat in play is a complete turnoff. Thus I ultimately have no plans to renew my sub whatsoever.

[Sian]

If I had to rate each expansion, for myself, I would put the order, from best to worst:

Other than the fact that I would move Legion above MoP, and put the question if not Vanilla is so high up because of nostalgia filters rather than a pragmatic view (classes were overly complex, several specs flat out didn't work, endgame content was to far away for the average player because of the number of flaming loops you'd have to jump through, and even 'simple' raiding was an exercise in herding cats due to numbers needed), I'm inclined to agree ... Sure, Legion have some issues with its narrative simply due to the backlog, but otherwise its the strongest expansion mechanics-wise, by quite the distance, since Wrath.

That said, now is probably not a great time to get into the game, since Legion is pretty much over, and the game is entering an idling position till Battle comes out, and ... well ... from what we know, IMO it sounds like it's making a couple of turns for the worse.

[Kish]

World of Warcraft has changed a lot over the years. There's no reason not to play the up-to-level-20 trial version and see if you like it for yourself, but if you're interested in WoW in historical context...don't expect to learn anything about what it was like before its third expansion from doing that.

[Winthur]

Pros: returning to the old Horde/Alliance tensions with no clear greater threat in play is a complete turnoff

To be fair that's kinda the core of Warcraft's story since 1 and at this point Warcraft reached cape-comics levels of craziness where they just disposed of a Galactus-level threat.

At least it seems like it's going to cater to world PvP a bit.

[Sian]

To be fair that's kinda the core of Warcraft's story since 1 and at this point Warcraft reached cape-comics levels of craziness where they just disposed of a Galactus-level threat.

At least it seems like it's going to cater to world PvP a bit.

Sure, it could be argued that it's the core ... but it also demands that many important NPC's gets in line for free idiot balls.

And also, I kinda hate Sylvanas who've been wanked quite heavily for the longest time, and consider the character both the least interesting and the one most catering to the lowest common denominator (and acne-infected teens)

[Psyren]

My order:

Spoiler

Show

1) Wrath: For reasons stated above, this was the game's peak. I was forced to miss most of it to keep my GPA on track, but even with that I could tell this was the game's best era.

2) TBC: The hype around the game's first expansion has yet to truly be matched. It also gave Horde paladins and Alliance shamans, a huge boon to the people who wanted to try these classes without leaving their friends behind.

3) Legion: Dripping with lore, and letting us tie up loose threads going all the way back to WC3. The advent of true level-scaling, open zone selection, and all the unique artifacts and spec playstyle innovations kept the alt experience fresh.

4) Cataclysm: A lot of people hate this expansion but I personally don't. The sheer number of challenging heroics kept the endgame interesting for me, and revamping the classic world and dungeons made leveling fantastic.

5) Vanilla: I never played Vanilla's endgame (TBC dropped mere months after I got a computer capable of running WoW) but it's the baseline against which I judge all other expansions.

6) Mists: Pandaria is a beautiful place with great music and I love the Monk class, but that's about all this expansion had going for it. Boring dungeons, nonexistent stakes, lackluster villains and annoying quests combined to make this the expansion that ultimately killed my enthusiasm for WoW.

7) Warlords: This should surprise nobody - the weak concept, decision to silo everyone off in garrisons, questionable lore and the fact that this whole expansion was blatantly just a holding pattern for Legion and a cash-in for the equally mediocre movie makes this my least favorite expansion, at least until BFA drops.

To be fair that's kinda the core of Warcraft's story since 1 and at this point Warcraft reached cape-comics levels of craziness where they just disposed of a Galactus-level threat.

At least it seems like it's going to cater to world PvP a bit.

You say these like they are good things. Trust me, if I gave a kobold's arse about PvP, there are far better games to do it in.

Sure, it could be argued that it's the core ... but it also demands that many important NPC's gets in line for free idiot balls.

And also, I kinda hate Sylvanas who've been wanked quite heavily for the longest time, and consider the character both the least interesting and the one most catering to the lowest common denominator (and acne-infected teens)

It has to; they are determined to show that there is no right or wrong side, and so the only way to keep them fighting with nobody in the wrong is to put complete idiots on both sides. Fine when they're up against the archest of archdemons or a LoveCraftian horror, not so fine when they're just at each other's throats or dragging neutral territories into their dispute.

[The_Jackal]

You say these like they are good things. Trust me, if I gave a kobold's arse about PvP, there are far better games to do it in.

Oh, at long last something you and I agree on completely. Even if WoW were a game that didn't hinge its combat resolution on hash functions, divorcing anything like skill or user-input from success (the closest thing to skill in WoW is using an instant-cast interrupt or stun ability to block a channeled or cast spell), it would still be a game that is designed around, and catering to, cooperative PvE content. In my experience, a game either does PvP well or PvE well, and the other thing is purely an afterthought. I can think of very, very [few](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_o...dern_Warfare_2) titles that have successfully produced top-tier experiences for both. WoW is simply not one of those games, and, in fact, the very nature of the progression system that is the core of the MMO mountain climb makes it fundamentally at odds with a good PvP experience.

It has to; they are determined to show that there is no right or wrong side, and so the only way to keep them fighting with nobody in the wrong is to put complete idiots on both sides. Fine when they're up against the archest of archdemons or a LoveCraftian horror, not so fine when they're just at each other's throats or dragging neutral territories into their dispute.

I heartily agree that stupidity is the backbone of all WoW plot motivations, {Scrubbed}. Of course, if your aim is to produce a narrative with likable characters, maybe realism should be something you avoid. I would be more than happy for Blizzard to budge on the Alliance/Horde conflict, and offer players the option to play a grey faction.

[tensai_oni]

WoW is a lukewarm experience that tries to be a modern MMO, but is dragged down by Blizzard's pathological need to cater to nostalgia-driven fanboys ("stop changing things! dumbing down! everything's too easy now! more open world pvp!"), as well as by ineptitude of their own writing staff who can't help but fall into typical Blizz writing cliches over and over.

It was the best MMO somewhere around WotLK's days but other games improved a lot more since then. FF XIV is a much better game. GW2 possibly too - I'm not familiar with the newest expansion.

[The_Jackal]

WoW is a lukewarm experience that tries to be a modern MMO, but is dragged down by Blizzard's pathological need to cater to nostalgia-driven fanboys ("stop changing things! dumbing down! everything's too easy now! more open world pvp!"), as well as by ineptitude of their own writing staff who can't help but fall into typical Blizz writing cliches over and over.

It was the best MMO somewhere around WotLK's days but other games improved a lot more since then. FF XIV is a much better game. GW2 possibly too - I'm not familiar with the newest expansion.

Wow, do you have that wrong. Blizzard has done almost nothing to cater to the 'please stop dumbing the game down' lobby. Look, no game company is going to please everyone, but if Blizzard's live team has shown anything, it's been that they've been willing to water down the experience as presented in vanilla through wrath to appeal to a more casual audience. Now we can debate whether that's a good design or business decision, and perhaps both have valid arguments, since that's an aesthetic decision to which there may never be one right answer. But the notion that WoW hasn't relentlessly made the game more casual and accessible is easily refuted.

[Sian]

For what it's worth, here's my ranking of the expacs

Wrath (Icecrown, and it's dungeons and ICC, stand out as some of the best content in their respective types ever made)
Burning Crusade / Legion (somewhat of a cointoss, since they're both good at slightly different things)
Vanilla (as mentioned upthread, the endgame was too inaccessible)
Cataclysm (like the idea, they never managed to sell me on the execution)
Mists (never liked Pandas, and the questing is uninspired)
Warlords (CowclickerMMO ... the raids encounters is said to be inspired through, but the pacing was horrible)

[Winthur]

You say these like they are good things. Trust me, if I gave a kobold's arse about PvP, there are far better games to do it in.

And on the other hand, I got completely burnt out on PvE after finding most raiding environments to breed annoying behaviors and feeling no joy in specs that are mostly about spamming one button for threat. Compare how a Wrath Elemental Shaman plays in PvE (one-button rotation with refreshing one cooldown) and how he plays in PvP (suddenly you have way, way more management going on). Sure, there are better games for PvP, but I find that MMOs should offer a complete experience in both areas because I got burnt out because PvE content for me was basically "park in Dalaran or equivalent thereof, log in every week to do the same raid, wipe on a boss for 6 hours because half the raid is people carried from lower tiers and get mad at some people while you mash your 1 button spec". Logging in to a battleground every so often was salvation in comparison. There needs to be a balance. Also, I like the RTSes more than WoW itself and I always found the stories of the wars between Ally and Horde to be cool, even if there's a lot of really boneheaded lore decisions that stem from Red vs Blue dynamics, like how Garrosh got ruined as a character and became a raid boss and it made no sense.

I think WoW is written by too many people at the same time and their ideas constantly clash without any consistency. Like Sylvanas Windrunner - I really liked her in WC3 because I liked her attitude and "tooth", and the Undead are very appealing to me as a concept and aesthetically. However, I dislike the way she's basically becoming Lich King 2.0 in the current lore, and not even her bare midriff can possibly distract me from this fundamental disonance.

[Psyren]

I don't care about raiding either. I quit, remember?

But I'm damn sure not paying $15/month for a second job, and both modes are that.

[Gnoman]

Well, I've hit level 8, and I'm still on the fence. It still feels like I'm in a tutorial (I'm playing a gnome, and I've gotten a bit past the bit where you "fight alongside" the gnome king), and that bit's dragging on somewhat.

[The_Jackal]

Well, I've hit level 8, and I'm still on the fence. It still feels like I'm in a tutorial (I'm playing a gnome, and I've gotten a bit past the bit where you "fight alongside" the gnome king), and that bit's dragging on somewhat.

So I'm not sure how the level scaling works since they tweaked it (they fast-tracked a whole bunch of leveling when Cata came around). I've never done the Gnome start, but that sounds like you're still in the newbie area. If you can't tough out level 20, yeah, WoW may not be your cup of tea.

[The_Jackal]

And on the other hand, I got completely burnt out on PvE after finding most raiding environments to breed annoying behaviors and feeling no joy in specs that are mostly about spamming one button for threat. Compare how a Wrath Elemental Shaman plays in PvE (one-button rotation with refreshing one cooldown) and how he plays in PvP (suddenly you have way, way more management going on).

That, I have to say, has gotten a LOT better over time. Most classes and specs now have a fairly interesting and varied rotation, with some kind of rotational priority system, with unexpected procs and other mechanics to keep DPS players on their toes. Because, yeah, early WoW, you were usually spamming a single ability as a ranged DPS.

Sure, there are better games for PvP, but I find that MMOs should offer a complete experience in both areas because I got burnt out because PvE content for me was basically "park in Dalaran or equivalent thereof, log in every week to do the same raid, wipe on a boss for 6 hours because half the raid is people carried from lower tiers and get mad at some people while you mash your 1 button spec".

Yeah, Blizzard is great about iterating on their games, and great about making cool content, but they SUCK at social engineering. Check out Overwatch's community if you don't believe me. They routinely populate their games with perverse incentives and prisoners' dilemmas, then feebly plead with their community to be nice to each other. The only solution here is to find a guild full of people who are willing to put work into making their guild a fun place to be.

Logging in to a battleground every so often was salvation in comparison. There needs to be a balance. Also, I like the RTSes more than WoW itself and I always found the stories of the wars between Ally and Horde to be cool, even if there's a lot of really boneheaded lore decisions that stem from Red vs Blue dynamics, like how Garrosh got ruined as a character and became a raid boss and it made no sense.

Well, to be clear, I always thought Garrosh was a mopey douchenozzle from the moment he was introduced. But, that said, I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea that the existence of PvP relieves the design problems with PvE. I do think that the decision to focus most of WoW's endgame on raiding has been an issue for me from the very beginning. To me, WoW's strength was the 5-man dungeon content. That's where the game shines, when you can get 4 friends and take down bosses and get loot. Yes, once you get to the weekly lockout stage of the treadmill, yeah, it's not as fun. But really, what you're running up against there, as much as anything, is the impossibility of the developer cranking out content at a rate commensurate with which it is consumed.

I think WoW is written by too many people at the same time and their ideas constantly clash without any consistency. Like Sylvanas Windrunner - I really liked her in WC3 because I liked her attitude and "tooth", and the Undead are very appealing to me as a concept and aesthetically. However, I dislike the way she's basically becoming Lich King 2.0 in the current lore, and not even her bare midriff can possibly distract me from this fundamental disonance.

I agree point for point here. Really, they're just having story fatigue. They've already taken their original premise, and their characters to, and past, their logical conclusion. Sam and Diane have hooked up, and now the writers need to come up with some new framework for injecting drama into the narrative, so you get the introduction of second-string pro/antagonists (Garrosh, Yrel), previously killed favorites getting raised from the dead (Grom, Gul'dan, Khadgar), and casting around for villain of the expansion, with greater or lesser success.

Personally, I've put in my WoW time, and I'm really holding out for the day they close the place down, so that they'll do what they should have done in 2010: Plan to wind down the game and start working on WoW II. Let a couple hundred years go by in story, get a new plot, and for heaven's sake, use a physics engine. Really, someone is going to make a Fantasy-themed Destiny/Anthem, it may as well be Blizzard.

[Winthur]

But, that said, I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea that the existence of PvP relieves the design problems with PvE.

Not exactly what I meant, but I suppose it's just kinda annoying how it feels like a lot of your kit doesn't ever come into play until you go into PvP.

All I'm saying is that I ultimately found a lot of fun in just queuing for a battleground every so often and just exploring my spec from a different angle. Druids in PvP, as far as I remember, for instance, actually use their shapeshift forms, all of them - because each has different things you might need to switch to and dash. Paladins become entirely more interesting to play in PvP. Rogues were always one of the most engaging PvE classes to me, but in PvP lurking against other players to stop flag carriers dead in their tracks etc. was a new dimension for me. PvE often doesn't scratch any of that.

Never went into hardcore PvP with arenas and rolling Human as the only viable race, but occasional BGs were fun enough, felt more proactive overall. And unlike raids, where you ultimately have a goal that requires full attention and often sitting on voice chat with a group of humorless neckbeards for 6 hours, you can just log into PvP to score a few frags, maybe get a PvP daily out, and it's not as repetitive as running the same Heroic over and over for some crappy reward.

So yeah, I'm not even huge into PvP and most of my fun was found in running friendly 5 mans and very early max level content before I fell into massive raiding fatigue. I still think it's pretty cool and that entirely cutting oneself out of any sort of PvP experience - even just an RBG every so often - is missing out.

Also as an advocate of playing these kinda games with close buddies and an extension of how fun 5-manning dungeons is, I'd much rather go into a 2v2 arena with a close friend whose spec I can synergize with and feel good about any victories we might fluke out, rather than into a 25 man with useless strangers again.

[Gnoman]

So I'm not sure how the level scaling works since they tweaked it (they fast-tracked a whole bunch of leveling when Cata came around). I've never done the Gnome start, but that sounds like you're still in the newbie area. If you can't tough out level 20, yeah, WoW may not be your cup of tea.

I'm up to level 17 now, and warming up to things. I've already encountered a few features that I wish FFXIV had, which is nice.

[danzibr]

Pros: The current patch has implemented level scaling throughout the entire world. This lets you actually experience the quest storylines they've built into the old world the way they were intended, without outleveling them so fast that they become meaningless. The XP you get from dungeons has dropped too, pushing players more to questing than to simply queuing up, and the content is now (at least supposedly) actually challenging, even for the folks decked out in heirlooms - requiring you to be careful how you approach mobs, and even stop to drink after a few pulls again depending on your class and gear.

Hmm, didn't know this. Cool.

I've played off and on since the first expansion (every time an expansion comes out I'll resubscribe and hit cap... right now I have like 5 toons at 110). I'd say it's a fun waste of time.

[Grim Portent]

I started a few months before Wrath came out and quit partway through Cataclysm, I'd say it was a fun enough game when I played it, there's plenty of decent content and the core mechanics are broadly fine.

I found the game really took off in the late teens or so for most classes. Druid was my preferred non-hero class once I got past level 20 or so, but a bunch of the utility it had started to get watered down when mounts and such became available.

I think my favorite parts of the game were questing in the 30-50 level range and then in the Wrath zones. Also pre-Cataclysm Classic dungeons, when they were big things you'd sometimes spend an hour on rather than small chunks you'd blow through in 15 minutes, but I do get why they made that change.

[The_Jackal]

Not exactly what I meant, but I suppose it's just kinda annoying how it feels like a lot of your kit doesn't ever come into play until you go into PvP.

I think that phenomenon is mostly due to the design constraints of raiding, namely that raid bosses can't be crowd controlled, and raid rosters need to conform to a specific party composition: 2 tanks, 4-5 healers, the rest DPS. That's one of the reasons I hold up early era 5-man content as the best that WoW had to offer. You had the opportunity to use the crowd control and cool abilities in clearing trash, and the boss fights weren't too much of an exercise in just barrelstuffing the boss and empting your clip.

All I'm saying is that I ultimately found a lot of fun in just queuing for a battleground every so often and just exploring my spec from a different angle. Druids in PvP, as far as I remember, for instance, actually use their shapeshift forms, all of them - because each has different things you might need to switch to and dash. Paladins become entirely more interesting to play in PvP. Rogues were always one of the most engaging PvE classes to me, but in PvP lurking against other players to stop flag carriers dead in their tracks etc. was a new dimension for me. PvE often doesn't scratch any of that.

On the other hand, many classes were nothing more than speed bumps in PVP. Maining a warrior, you were just a free kill to 85% of classes, unless you had a healer to pocket you, and enemies dumb enough to not kill them first. Mages were laughably overpowered versus melee classes, but got routinely curbstomped by priests, druids, warlocks, etc. I did have a fair bit of fun abusing people in battlegrounds as a subtlety rogue, and certainly wrecked plenty of face with my hunter, but I'm not under the misapprehension that those widly imbalanced encounters in my favor actually made the PvP game good.

Never went into hardcore PvP with arenas and rolling Human as the only viable race, but occasional BGs were fun enough, felt more proactive overall. And unlike raids, where you ultimately have a goal that requires full attention and often sitting on voice chat with a group of humorless neckbeards for 6 hours, you can just log into PvP to score a few frags, maybe get a PvP daily out, and it's not as repetitive as running the same Heroic over and over for some crappy reward.

Arenas were awful, and one of the worst decisions in the game, once again, Blizzard trying in a futile effort to make the game 'competitive', when it's not remotely close to balanced (and never, ever would be). I agree with you, PvP is okay when you accept that it's a fun change of pace, but it's not, and never can be, a serious competitive game. As a side note, I'm sorry your raid experiences were so universally poor. All I can say is I've had better luck meeting good, friendly people in WoW. Which is not to say I didn't run into my own share of idiots in some of my guilds (I suspect I would have been one of those humorless neckbeards, though I won't raid anything for 6 hours).

So yeah, I'm not even huge into PvP and most of my fun was found in running friendly 5 mans and very early max level content before I fell into massive raiding fatigue. I still think it's pretty cool and that entirely cutting oneself out of any sort of PvP experience - even just an RBG every so often - is missing out.

Really, this is where the game is best, and it's why when you look at newer MMOs, they're mostly focused on smaller groups. Destiny has 3 and 6 man groups. Now there's still content droughts, but at least we're getting to the point where the industry has cottoned on to the idea that expecting 25-40 players to mob up to do something adds a layer of drudgery and tedium that doesn't belong in any game.

Also as an advocate of playing these kinda games with close buddies and an extension of how fun 5-manning dungeons is, I'd much rather go into a 2v2 arena with a close friend whose spec I can synergize with and feel good about any victories we might fluke out, rather than into a 25 man with useless strangers again.

What wound up working for me in the end was moving to a RP server, and joining a guild through a friend. It's all about finding a group who understands that the sense of camaraderie is what's important, not the loot, or which boss you've got on farm, or who's leading the DPS meters. It can still be frustrating (in a guild like that, you can get a fair number of inexperienced gamers, but on the whole, I enjoyed it).

But yeah, the small group scene is where it's at. My advice to anyone who just reached the level cap in WoW is to enjoy the 5 man content, and postpone the endgame raid stuff.

I think my favorite parts of the game were questing in the 30-50 level range and then in the Wrath zones. Also pre-Cataclysm Classic dungeons, when they were big things you'd sometimes spend an hour on rather than small chunks you'd blow through in 15 minutes, but I do get why they made that change.

Personally, truncating the dungeons to a predictable 15 minute sprint was one of the changes I wish they'd have reconsidered. There are some great vanilla dungeons that are just fantastic, like Blackrock Depths or Stratholme, and taking that experience away really undercuts the sense of immersion and investment with the game. Now every dungeon just feels like a theme park ride. Wait in line to get on, follow the tracks to the end, get in the next line. When you had to put together a team to go to a dungeon and claw through it, you were invested in making friends you could rely on to go with you. Rather than just put everyone in a random matchmaking funnel, they should have improved tools to allow players to make their own groups (which they eventually did, they just never purged the queue system from the game).

[The_Jackal]

In other news, I just looked at B4A promo material, and I'm kinda hyped. It's possible I may spring for a copy and get myself a Void Elf Hunter going.

[Icewraith]

I think that phenomenon is mostly due to the design constraints of raiding, namely that raid bosses can't be crowd controlled, and raid rosters need to conform to a specific party composition: 2 tanks, 4-5 healers, the rest DPS. That's one of the reasons I hold up early era 5-man content as the best that WoW had to offer. You had the opportunity to use the crowd control and cool abilities in clearing trash, and the boss fights weren't too much of an exercise in just barrelstuffing the boss and empting your clip.


What wound up working for me in the end was moving to a RP server, and joining a guild through a friend. It's all about finding a group who understands that the sense of camaraderie is what's important, not the loot, or which boss you've got on farm, or who's leading the DPS meters. It can still be frustrating (in a guild like that, you can get a fair number of inexperienced gamers, but on the whole, I enjoyed it).

But yeah, the small group scene is where it's at. My advice to anyone who just reached the level cap in WoW is to enjoy the 5 man content, and postpone the endgame raid stuff.

Personally, truncating the dungeons to a predictable 15 minute sprint was one of the changes I wish they'd have reconsidered. There are some great vanilla dungeons that are just fantastic, like Blackrock Depths or Stratholme, and taking that experience away really undercuts the sense of immersion and investment with the game. Now every dungeon just feels like a theme park ride. Wait in line to get on, follow the tracks to the end, get in the next line. When you had to put together a team to go to a dungeon and claw through it, you were invested in making friends you could rely on to go with you. Rather than just put everyone in a random matchmaking funnel, they should have improved tools to allow players to make their own groups (which they eventually did, they just never purged the queue system from the game).

By "endgame" do you mean Mythic raids, or any raiding at all? "Casual" (not Mythic, not LFR) raids are actually in a great place right now. If you're going to participate in "endgame" 5-mans (Mythic +) and get the weekly reward for clearing a +15, you'll need to have gear equal to or better than that obtainable from the current Raid's normal difficulty. There are a number of ways to get a character or alt geared up quickly.

I'm really surprised at your take on 5-mans (unless you're referring to just levelling content?), because the current system (Mythic +) offers almost exactly what you say you're missing. No matter how much gear you have, you will hit a point where you need a competent team of people to claw through the dungeon if you're going to have a chance of making the 25-45 minute timer or even completing the dungeon. There is no queue for Mythic+ 5 mans.

[Psyren]

I was very happy when they implemented Mythic+, but the insane AP grind to get ready for them is where I lost interest. It's been improved since, but it was too little too late to get me reinvested as other games came out to compete for my attention.