Scratching that Star Wars Itch: Edition Search

[Popertop]

I'm mainly a player that has stuck to D&D (primarily 3rd edition) and while many have complained about the sort of opti-fu it takes to wrangle the system and make it do what you want, I've found it actually gives depth to play.

My main experiences with Star Wars roleplaying are the KOTOR games, which while not a perfect translation, satisfied my rules crunchiness enough for a media like that. Of course, I'd want a bit more out of a tabletop version. I should admit I'm a bit of a whore for the Jedi lore and force interaction and lightsaber forms and such, although I'm not averse to playing a bounty hunter, smuggler, etc.

So here it is. I've received the Edge of the Empire FFG book for Christmas, but I'm wondering if it would be better to just try and get the Saga Edition stuff, as I've heard that is the system most similar to 3rd edition (at least for my tastes). What I'm looking for is lots of depth and crossplay between the different build options.


I'm not exactly looking forward to needing to buy all those special dice just to speed up the calculations. And I do prefer the more traditional gamist approach, although I'm not shy when it comes to narrative editions either (love Fate).


Based on this information, what does the board recommend my course of action?

[Jigawatts]

Based on your paradigm, Saga sounds literally perfect for you, that is my recommendation.

[stanprollyright]

Saga. Make sure you pick up the Jedi Academy Training Manual and the KotOR Sourcebook too, for all the extra Jedi goodies.

[Absol197]

Saga is pretty good, but I would actually recommend giving Edge a try. It's one of my favorite systems ever (coming from someone who starting with 3.5 D&D). As for the dice, I think the Fantasy Flight dice app is like $10, and basically gives you all the dice you need, as well as calculating the results for you, which speeds things up a lot, if you don't want to go out and by the actual dice.

[Malifice]

Based on your paradigm, Saga sounds literally perfect for you, that is my recommendation.

Agree completely.

I'd stick with the Saga CRB, Scum and villany (for tech mods), starships of the galaxy, and one sourcebook for the campaign/ timeline (rebellion era/ old republic/ empire/ dark times) you're after.

I statted up Kylo Ren and Rey the other day:

Spoiler: Episode 7 spoilers

Show

Ren is a Jedi 7/ Soldier 1/ Force adept [knights of Ren] 1. S 14, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Con 12, Cha 16.
Feats: Force training (3), strong in the force, power attack, fatal hit, triple crit.
Force powers: Dark rage, force grip, force stun, force thrust, move object, intercept.
Talents: mind probe, deflect, block, power of the dark side, swift power, equilibrium.
Equipment is a crossguard lightsaber with unstabe crystal (JaTM), helmet package (+2 perception).
Skills: Use the force, Knowledge [galactic lore], Persuasion

Rey is a Force sensitive + strong in the force Scout who hit level 3 after the battle at Maz Kanatas castle, taking a level of Jedi and using her 3rd level feat on force training (picking up mind trick and battlestrike) and learning the block talent (to go with jury rig which she picked up at 1st).

After figuring out the Millenium falcon, she also picked up vehicular combat feat at 2nd. Skills: Climb, Mechanics, Pilot, Perception, Endurance, Stealth, Use the force. Stats S 10, D 14, C 13, I 12, W 12, Ch 12. Initially equipped with an ionised quarterstaff she scavenged, then a blaster pistol then Luke Skywalkers lightsaber (LeCG) which gains both the steeped in the dark side AND symbol of the light side special traits.

Both have the Skywalker legacy destiny from Legacy era campaign guide.

She pwns Kylo because he's damn low on HP and FP (getting shot by Chewbacca and copped a lucky hit from Finn with a lightsaber does that) and has expended a few force powers in the lead up. She also uses a destiny point to auto crit him after he trolls her.

[Mutazoia]

I'm going to go against the assembled crowd so far and recommend the D6 version. The 2nd edition Revised and Expanded to be exact.

Personally I find that the game play tends to be a lot faster and easier to match the cinematic pace of the movies, with out any real learning curve. If you use one of the templates available, you can be up and running from scratch in a matter of minutes, but custom character "template" creation is still an option.

There is a lot more source material available for the D6 version than there is for Saga, and far fewer loop holes and grey areas. Most of the books can be found archived at D6holocron.com.

[Rakaydos]

I'll double down on giving Edge a try. Dont try using the conversion chart in an actual game, that way lies madness- either the Star Wars Dice App, or an online roller like Orokos (http://orokos.com/roll/?action=roll) that has the edge dice is better.

When optimizing, though, remember that machine guns are OP, not jedi. Stupid Jury Rig/Autofire combo...

[Mutazoia]

I'll double down on giving Edge a try. Dont try using the conversion chart in an actual game, that way lies madness- either the Star Wars Dice App, or an online roller like Orokos (http://orokos.com/roll/?action=roll) that has the edge dice is better.

When optimizing, though, remember that machine guns are OP, not jedi. Stupid Jury Rig/Autofire combo...

If you REALLY want to try FFG's version, there is a dice roller app you can get on your phone as well.

[LibraryOgre]

If you really like d20, then Saga will do quite well for you. I shamelessly plug my classless and levelless variations on here, because I feel they give more flexibility.

That said, I'm a big fan of d6 2e R&E. It plays fast, is easy to handle on the fly, and has a somewhat flatter power curve IME.

[Itsjustsoup.com]

Have you considered d6? [Cringes and Ducks Thrown Objects]

[Mutazoia]

Have you considered d6? [Cringes and Ducks Thrown Objects]

Already recommended it.

[russdm]

Would suggest either WEG Star Wars or FFG's star wars, possibly Force and Destiny. I wouldn't really suggest Saga, as you can use Force-Users to break things (WotC ported over the Tier System from 3.5 in part here, so expect that.) and Saga has all of the flaws of d20 games.

Saga is more of a D&D version of Star Wars, and I love the KotoR games too, but I would hesitate to employ Saga for them.

The Saga Tier is:

1- CT(Condition Track)-Killer, Jedi, Force-Sensitive Feat w/ feats for replacing Skills with Use-the-Force skill plus employing Focus in Use-the-Force skill

2- Noble, Scoundrel

3- Scout, Soldier

It's a small Tier, mind.

[Aletheides]

+1 to the d20 Revised edition, here.

In my experience, the Saga edition overbalances the non-Jedi classes; I played a 'classic Jedi Guardian/Master' character in a long campaign, and was disappointed at how little chance he had to shine. Partially my, and the GM's fault, maybe, but unless you're playing a 'Force wizard' or a dark Jedi, stick to Soldiers/Nobles/Crimelords.

d20 Revised is like Rifts, IMO: Can be incredibly versatile and fun, as long as you have a good GM who knows how to say 'No' to their players when necessary.

And yes, KOTOR rules. Running a game myself in that era, about 10 years after KOTOR 2. Tons of adventure potential!

[lightningcat]

d20 Revised is the only version that I've had the chance to play or run. Although I do have the entire Saga run as well. I ignored the tactical aspect of d20 and we had lots of fun, until I failed to say "no" to heavily modifying the ship. Next thing I know it can take down star destroyers with ease... So just watch out for Starship of the Galaxy. This is probably true for every edition.

[Philistine]

SWd20/RCR has the distinction of being even more poorly designed than 3e D&D: the Force is closely based on the garbled mess that was Psionics in 3.0 (and in d20 Modern), and combat is straight-up ruled by Power Attack - to the point that blaster wielders need not bother even showing up. It is almost certainly the worst version of the d20 rules WotC ever published.

SWSE, OTOH, is probably the cleanest, most elegant, and best-balanced version of d20 ever released. While it still has a few flaws, most of these are minor - and easilt fixed if you decide they aren't minor enough to let stand. The one really glaring flaw is the disparate scaling between defenses, normal attacks, and Skill-based attacks - most notably Force powers -and unfortunately this is also a tough one to correct. (It's worth noting that this is one of the points which invalidates the proposed shoehorning of SWSE classes into D&D3-esque Tiers.)

[Malifice]

In my experience, the Saga edition overbalances the non-Jedi classes; I played a 'classic Jedi Guardian/Master' character in a long campaign, and was disappointed at how little chance he had to shine. Partially my, and the GM's fault, maybe, but unless you're playing a 'Force wizard' or a dark Jedi, stick to Soldiers/Nobles/Crimelords.

Not sure I agree with this. Using the CRB alone:

Human 'saber monkey' Jedi: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10. Feats: Force training and Skill focus UtF. Skills: UtF +10, Initiative +7 and Perception +7. Talent: Deflect. Force powers: Mind trick, battlestrike, Force slam

Attack is lightsaber +4 dealing 2d8+6 damage [plus battlestrike] - better average damage than a blaster rifle - far better with battlestrike active. Or force slam/ mind trick at +10. Deflects incoming attacks at +10; has 30 HP. Thats a versatile and potent character right out the tin.

Take rapid strike as your feat at 2nd level - now you strike at +3 to hit dealing 3d8+6. Take force training again [force grip, move object, vital transfer] and Block at 3rd level.

From there maybe a two level dip in Solider for force pilot [might as well branch into other areas and emulate Luke/ Anakin], light armor and vehicle combat. Get yourself a starfighter and an astromech droid. Then back to Jedi for two more levels for weapon focus [saber], the redirect shot talent and the starship tactics feat [rounding out the Jedi pilot vibe].

5 levels in Jedi knight follows. WS [lightsaber], Juyo and Vaapad. Take triple crit at 9th and double attack at 12th level. Then off to Jedi master for 5 levels for multiattack lightsaber twice, and improved weapon focus [lightsaber]. At 15th level take force training for your third and final time and at 18th level take whatever feat you want. Jump back to Jedi knight or Jedi for your last three levels (depending on if you want more techniques or more feats)

Bump str by 2 as you level, and wisdom and cha by 4. As your wisdom goes up, dont forget to load up on more battlestrike powers.

There are far more convoluted ways to build a saber monkey [particularly via the lightsaber form powers in the Jedi splatbook, and the imperial knight armor guru talent that saves you a talent]. Everything above was CRB exclusive [barring the starship tactics feat which was really just in for fluff], and none of it required a particularly high level of system mastery - even at 1st level as a Jedi you want to be good at using the force [i.e. skill focus] and have a few powers to get you through [mind trick and battlestrike are pretty iconic, and force slam is just in for the mook clearance]; and having a high strength for a melee character isnt controversial even to a player new to the D20 system.

[russdm]

Not sure I agree with this. Using the CRB alone:

Human 'saber monkey' Jedi: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10. Feats: Force training and Skill focus UtF. Skills: UtF +10, Initiative +7 and Perception +7. Talent: Deflect. Force powers: Mind trick, battlestrike, Force slam

It's actually better to go with higher Dex to help your reflex defense, since you can apply Weapon Finesse to Lightsabers (They count). The damage can be modified via lightsaber modifications like crystals, while you can pick the feats to increase the number of attacks you can do, by wielding two lightsabers or a double bladed lightsaber. A Strength score of 14 will work fine, it's only dropping down one point.

Blasters do more damage than Lightsaber on average, since they have 3 dice to the lightsaber's 2. If you get hit and are unable to deflect (possibly used all Deflects or fail), you will take more damage. Dex is pretty important here, since you cannot wear any armor, and so will have a low reflex score.

Blasters with 3d6 will do 3-18 damage plus half-level, while blasters with 3d8 will be doing 3-24 damage. Some blasters even have 3d10 for damage. A lightsaber would doing 2-16 with stuff added in like Str and battlestrike.

Or at least, I think having a higher Dex than Str will be of more benefit.

[Jigawatts]

Yeah, d20 RCR is a horribly balanced mess. Its far at the bottom of the list of SW RPGs I'd recommend, Saga, d6, and Fantasy Flight are all vastly superior renditions of the game.

[Dizlag]

If you want to get more out of your tabletop roleplaying experience, then I would suggest you give the Edge of the Empire Star Wars RPG by Fantasy Flight Games a try. You've got the book already and I don't think you're gonna be disappointed. As others suggested, you can spend $5 for the dice rolling app (which gives you all the special dice for FFGs Star Wars gaming lines including Armada, X-Wing, and Imperial Assault).

I have been roleplaying since the early 80s both as a DM/GM and a player using various roleplaying systems thoughout the years. Every edition of D&D, SWRPG by FFG (obviously), Pathfinder, Savage Worlds, Hackmaster, Dungeon World, Iron Kingdoms, Warhammer Fantasy 3rd Edition, GURPS, Feng Shui, Vampire the Masquarade, OG, Kobolds Ate My Baby, and others. I would pick the SWRPG System by FFG over all of the rest because I'm having SO much fun with it! My players seem to be more engaged because the narrative dice system seems to bring out a collaboration around the table I haven't experienced before.

Anyways, give it a try. You really don't have anything to loose and so much potential to gain another gaming experience.

Take care and good luck!

Dizlag

[Malifice]

It's actually better to go with higher Dex to help your reflex defense, since you can apply Weapon Finesse to Lightsabers (They count). The damage can be modified via lightsaber modifications like crystals, while you can pick the feats to increase the number of attacks you can do, by wielding two lightsabers or a double bladed lightsaber. A Strength score of 14 will work fine, it's only dropping down one point.

Blasters do more damage than Lightsaber on average, since they have 3 dice to the lightsaber's 2. If you get hit and are unable to deflect (possibly used all Deflects or fail), you will take more damage. Dex is pretty important here, since you cannot wear any armor, and so will have a low reflex score.

Blasters with 3d6 will do 3-18 damage plus half-level, while blasters with 3d8 will be doing 3-24 damage. Some blasters even have 3d10 for damage. A lightsaber would doing 2-16 with stuff added in like Str and battlestrike.

Or at least, I think having a higher Dex than Str will be of more benefit.

Requires weapon finesse (feat) and the Ataru talent (for damage) the latter of which doesnt come online till 8th level at the earliest.

Your damage sucks at early levels if you dump Strength. It also shuts down rapid strike as an option, delays access to skill focus UtF etc.

With a Dex of 14 (Reflex defence 10 +1 level + 1 class + 2 dex) you get a Ref defence of 14 at 1st level. Not needing weapon finesse leaves you with both skill focus UtF from 1st and force training. With a +10 to UtF checks to deflect, youre pretty golden defence wise from 1st level. Block comes online at 3rd level.

If youre going for the armored Jedi/Sith route, Str is definately your best bet. Corellian armor grants +2 to strength, max dex kicks in, and armor weighs a bit.

Being in melee a lot gives you another +5 to your defence unless your opponent has precise shot also. So most targets are needing a 19 to hit (plus cover) with you deflecting at +10.

Dex is OK, but it costs a feat and a talent, doesnt come online till late, and the gains arent that great for the cost. For the same cost (talent and feat) you could dip soldier, take medium armor as your feat, and armored defence as your talent which is available earlier and serves you much better at low levels (till around 9th level when your level is higher than your armor). At that point you can take one more talent for improved armored defence, and youre running around (stygian triplasmatic medium dark armor) in [heroic level + class + dex +4 armor], with an additional+4 to fort defence (and +2 to block/deflect) or medium Jedi battle armor for +3 to reflex and +5 to fort.

You worry a bit less about being flatfooted too.

[russdm]

Your damage sucks at early levels if you dump Strength. It also shuts down rapid strike as an option, delays access to skill focus UtF etc.

I wasn't going to dump Strength, just swap the Str and Dex scores only. Or try to make them both 15s.

It is worth noting there is a Force talent that gives you damage reduction 10 for a minute.

You can and probably should take Weapon Finesse for a class bonus feat at level 2. So you don't have to take it at start, plus with a Str of 14, Dex of 16 or both 15, it is not necessary immediately.

[Malifice]

I wasn't going to dump Strength, just swap the Str and Dex scores only. Or try to make them both 15s.

It is worth noting there is a Force talent that gives you damage reduction 10 for a minute.

You can and probably should take Weapon Finesse for a class bonus feat at level 2. So you don't have to take it at start, plus with a Str of 14, Dex of 16 or both 15, it is not necessary immediately.

There are arguments for and against, but for a Jedi with access to deflect, block and negate energy (and other defensive force powers) who spends his time in melee (+5 reflex defence unelss the attacker has precise shot) dex isnt really needed. It also costs a feat (and a talent in Ataru) that could be spend elsewhere, and takes longer to get off the ground.

As you point out, instead of weapon finesse and Ataru you could take improved defences as your feat and damage reduction 10 as your talent.

Its really only worth it if youre going the melee duelist path. But even that is fiddly and takes a while to get off the ground.

I used to be very pro Dex (and its even more tempting on a MAD class like a Jedi) but after going strength I havent looked back.