Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

[Eisfalken]

I was just reading various notes and thoughts regarding the dreaded use of planar binding at 11th level to basically shoehorn an efreeti into using wishes non-stop on behalf of the PCs.

Then, while re-reading planar binding, I ran into this clause of the spell description: "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to."

I know there are various methods of dealing with wish abuse, but I would like to ask other DMs: would it be totally off the mark to interpret demanding wishes without some form of compensation (to the tune of gp per XP that would normally be required of the wish) to the efreet as being "unreasonable"? Let's consider the fact that without compensation, this is de facto slavery; unless you engage in strings of mind control and memory wiping to keep them from realizing they've been duped, or start killing every efreet you summon before releasing them (which is risky in and of itself), they know they are being kidnapped and enslaved to cast wishes until you let them go.

That alone seems to fit the very definition of "unreasonable" to me, especially for a creature whose description specifically states that they despise any form of servitude, arguably even more when they are magically compelled to appear in the first place.

I'm not necessarily arguing that a PC can't use said mind-screwing or murder to cover up their abuse of the efreet. I'm just saying that doing wishes for free seems totally unreasonable to any efreet (and, arguably, to anything that doesn't benefit fairly well from said PCs' self-interest), and that the only way to even open relatively peaceful negotiations via planar binding will be some form of compensation (which, naturally, would vary from DM to DM and situation to situation), aside from the usual bowing and scraping an efreet might require to placate their ego.

In fact, if this logic holds, then once they sufficiently appease an efreet, I see no reason as a DM to deny that exchange to take place: it gives them ample motivation to go on adventures for even such lowly rewards as gold (since it can easily be converted into something more useful), as well as providing a very quick way to exchange wealth for custom items and things they need.

Just for the record, this is merely semantics for me; I'm not actually that worried. First time someone starts abusing efreet like this, Mechanus starts spawning quarut inevitables (FF) to take care of it, probably just by freeing the efreet before the PCs can kill or mind-screw it, and letting nature take its course. Or by geasing/killing the PCs with that ridiculous list of abilities quaruts have. There is something elegant about the idea of an in-game deterrent to wish abuse, built directly into the cosmology of the game.

[TiaC]

The issue is that once you have access to a single wish without XP cost, you can wish for a ring of infinite wishes. Therefore, the player does not need to chain-bind efreet, they can just bind one and pay it to do what they ask.

In addition, the chain usually works like this. Gate an efreet, which forces it to obey for a minute or two. Wish for a Candle of Invocation, get two more wishes. Use the candle to gate another efreet...

Really, it's probably better to just say "Don't do that in this game, it won't be any fun." or "Ok, you win D&D, let's start a new campaign because you clearly weren't enjoying this one." Applying in-game solutions to out-of-game problems is never a good solution, because it doesn't address the real problem.

[Florian]

Like a lot of purely theoretical tactics, most of the details and caveats are being glossed over to make such tactics work.
That starts with the first clause given in the spell line: "The creature must be known and stated". The second part is, that unlike your regular summons, we talk about specific creatures (practically NPC) here and there is actually no guarantee that they did not already spent their wishcraft on other purposes (at least for that day but compare with Marids 1/year). Lastly, the integrated roleplaying of haggling with the creature. Yes, that can be done with a opposed check but not completely hand-waved.

Now its interesting that Genie can only grant wishes to non-Genies, meaning it would not make any real sense for them to hold them back. Reading the "Binding Outsiders" section, there´s a funny thing here: All outsiders want to advance their causes and can fail their opposed check on purpose when the offer is right. It´s a good tactic to have an Efreet actually make a counter-offer for what he wants in exchange for being bound to service.

[Eisfalken]

Really, it's probably better to just say "Don't do that in this game, it won't be any fun." or "Ok, you win D&D, let's start a new campaign because you clearly weren't enjoying this one." Applying in-game solutions to out-of-game problems is never a good solution, because it doesn't address the real problem.

So basically you're saying to just houserule the crap out of this and forget about dialogue with the players, because what it comes down to is precisely that: that this is a horrible loophole in the game that can't be ignored once anyone gets on the internet and sees it is RAW, requiring me to just arbitrarily rule against it.

Got it. Moving on.

[Florian]

So basically you're saying to just houserule the crap out of this and forget about dialogue with the players, because what it comes down to is precisely that: that this is a horrible loophole in the game that can't be ignored once anyone gets on the internet and sees it is RAW, requiring me to just arbitrarily rule against it.

Got it. Moving on.

The main issue on this is pure meta-game information put to an In-Game use and explicitly targeting areas not covered by the actual RAW.

A character would need to know all relevant creatures and items to make all of it work. Make s simple test: When a player wishes for a specific item (in this case, the Candle of Invocation), ask the player where his character knows that item from and why he can directly name it for his wish, especially when he´s not on a level where he could reasonably craft it himself (i.e. CL17).

A lot of infinity loop exploits break down the moment you separate meta and In-Game levels.

[Fizban]

I literally just used that clause in an argument with a guy in another thread last week. It's DM's discretion right there in the main spell text. Any demand of service with no payment can be deemed unreasonable, and outsiders live longer than you so they can wait as long as they want.

Follow it up by twisting the clause that automatically returns them to their home plane after fulfilling their end of the bargain and recieving payment: with no deal, they've already fulfilled the bargain and received payment, so as soon as you disturb the circle they vanish. This prevents the bind+mind control tactic and for plots where you need an uncontrolled outsider that's escaped, you simply state that said outsider, having gained the upper hand, is "holding out for a better deal" indefinitely. That's all less "RAW", but the DM doesn't need to hide behind that anyway and Florian has already pointed out even more holes in the so-called plan.

[TiaC]

So basically you're saying to just houserule the crap out of this and forget about dialogue with the players, because what it comes down to is precisely that: that this is a horrible loophole in the game that can't be ignored once anyone gets on the internet and sees it is RAW, requiring me to just arbitrarily rule against it.

Got it. Moving on.

Well, if you insist on playing strictly by RAW, you get Pun-Pun. Now, maybe it's just me, but I don't find that an enjoyable game. So, yes, you should dialogue with the players, because if they find making infinite wishes more interesting than whatever campaign you are telling, one of you is doing something wrong. I'm not saying to houserule anything, I'm saying that coming to things in an adversarial mindset is less effective than talking about why your players are being disruptive.

It's a loophole in the rules in the manner of a cheat code. As everyone has likely experienced, the invincibility cheats are only fun for the first few minutes before they become tedious. So if that is what your players would prefer over your campaign, either they aren't interested in being players or your campaign isn't that interesting.

[ace rooster]

So basically you're saying to just houserule the crap out of this and forget about dialogue with the players, because what it comes down to is precisely that: that this is a horrible loophole in the game that can't be ignored once anyone gets on the internet and sees it is RAW, requiring me to just arbitrarily rule against it.

Got it. Moving on.

It is only a loophole if DMs play lawful evil outsiders with good mental stats, high spellcraft checks, and three wishes per day as unaware of this whole binding thing. This looks wrong to me. Even if it is accurate, I would expect there to be something with an interest in that many wishes, and stealing them would probably irk it. It would not be the sort of thing you would want to irk.

This is a bit like stealing the +5 vorpal sword from the kings armoury at level 3. There are no rules to say that you can't, but it is probably a really bad idea, especially if you manage. I wouldn't say it was arbitrarily ruling against it for the armoury to be securely locked, so it would not be arbitrary that efreeti would be well secured against bindings.

[Necroticplague]

Most version of chain-wishing using efreeti I've seen never involve Planar Binding. They involved using a Candle of Invocation to Gate an efreeti. Using it's Wish falls under the

"A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell. "

clause, so you can force it to spend it's wishes. Your first two are for whatever, the third is for another Candle of invocation. Repeat.

[Bronk]

I suppose, instead of flat out banning wish chains, you could give it in game fluff.

For example, you could turn it into an adventure in itself. They could start the wish chain, but a few wishes in, they would be stopped somehow. If it's using planar binding, make sure the summoned monsters get their will saves. Then, whether it's planar binding efreeti or gating in solars, once the first one goes back to it's home plane, it can sound the alarm and send a team to get them to stop.

Or, you could say that wish chains aren't possible because the gods prevent it. Or, that someone already used a wish chain in the past, and one of their wishes was to prevent anyone else from doing so in order to protect his power. Or maybe that's where some of the setting's gods came from in the first place, and no longer like uppity adventurers on their turf!

[Florian]

Most version of chain-wishing using efreeti I've seen never involve Planar Binding. They involved using a Candle of Invocation to Gate an efreeti. Using it's Wish falls under the
clause, so you can force it to spend it's wishes. Your first two are for whatever, the third is for another Candle of invocation. Repeat.

And that´s where theory and practice are different. You are not assured that the specific Efreet you Gate in actually has any or the full SLAs of Whishes left. Remember: This is not a summons spell, Gate works with an actual creature (NPC) and does not have to strictly go conform with the stat block.
Don´t assume otherwise, as there is no indication that this stuff is completely player-controlled.

[Cosi]

Another solution (described in the Tomes by Frank and K) is to use 3.0 wish's price restriction and alter the magic item rules, then simply allow people to wish for all the items they want because it no longer breaks the game.

Most version of chain-wishing using efreeti I've seen never involve Planar Binding. They involved using a Candle of Invocation to Gate an efreeti.

There are two versions. The original Chain Binding trick involves using planar binding to bind an Efreet, using one of its wishes for another Efreet, one for whatever you want, then one to pay it.

The Wish's trick (where you wish for a magic item of infinite power) uses gate to shut down the "they won't let you" objection.

The Candle based loop also works, but the original does use planar binding.

And that´s where theory and practice are different. You are not assured that the specific Efreet you Gate in actually has any or the full SLAs of Whishes left. Remember: This is not a summons spell, Gate works with an actual creature (NPC) and does not have to strictly go conform with the stat block.
Don´t assume otherwise, as there is no indication that this stuff is completely player-controlled.

This is a dumb argument. Candle for an Efreet with a wish is just a proxy for other techniques for getting an XP-free wish. For example, simulacrum or ice assassin of an Efreet. Or Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell + wish. Or shapechange + Zodar. Or Archmage's SLA + wish + Supernatural Transformation. Or Planar Shepherd's Outsider Wildshaper + Efreet. Getting caught up on the process of getting the wish rather than the effect of the trick is just being small-minded.

[Segev]

The trouble with the "unreasonable request" argument is that, for an efreet, it's not that big of a deal. They can grant 3 wishes PER DAY. It costs them nothing. Between being bound for 10 minutes while wishes are worked out and being bound for days or more doing some more strenuous task, it would be arguable that the wish-granting is preferable.

[Florian]

@Cosi:

The actual Wish is not a thing, you knowing what to wish for is, though. That´s the separation between player and character knowledge here and also what makes the main difference.

Meta-Knowledge aside, you simply explain to me what and how a character knows about all the "technical details" of all that stuff and we´re talking fair game here. Start with any fluff reasons, and I simply can´t take you seriously on this. "My teacher told me so" or "It is common knowledge"... lol wut?

Simply put, you are not in control here until you reach the levels that you actually can do that stuff yourself. Do not try to make a RAW case when we´re talking about the holes in RAW.

[Beheld]

It is literally unreasonable of you as a DM to declare that an Efferti using one of the 3 SLA Wishes that exist for the purpose of letting PCs wish, that specifically can only be granted to other people is "unreasonable."

People often talk about how easy it is to just offer the Efferti one of his own wishes that he can't otherwise use for himself. You can also just threaten to murder the guy, and then he will quickly decide that between the choice of "Use some SLAs that don't hurt me in any way and that I get back tomorrow" and "literally die" that it's unreasonable to pick the second one.

As for claims that Efferti don't have their wishes because they spent them: Planar Binding lasts at least 11 days, if you wait 1 day, they get their wishes back and are literally incapable of spending them.

TL;DR: If the reason you want to claim something is "unreasonable" is because the game breaks if it doesn't, but it's obviously super mega hyper reasonable for the monster in question, then you aren't actually following the rules, you are changing the rules to prevent the game from breaking.

@Cosi:

The actual Wish is not a thing, you knowing what to wish for is, though. That´s the separation between player and character knowledge here and also what makes the main difference.

Meta-Knowledge aside, you simply explain to me what and how a character knows about all the "technical details" of all that stuff and we´re talking fair game here. Start with any fluff reasons, and I simply can´t take you seriously on this. "My teacher told me so" or "It is common knowledge"... lol wut?

Simply put, you are not in control here until you reach the levels that you actually can do that stuff yourself. Do not try to make a RAW case when we´re talking about the holes in RAW.

I make a DC 24 spellcraft check, that means that when I see someone casting a spell, I instantly know everything about that spell. And that's just figuring out what spell he is casting from his hand movements and words, how much lower must the check be to just know what a spell does but not be able to guess exactly what someone is casting from hand gestures.

Or are you claiming that PCs aren't allowed to know that magic items exist? How did they buy all the items they already bought if they aren't allowed to know they exist? How is a level 11 Wizard supposed to not know what a Staff is? Or a stat boosting item?

[Florian]

@Beheld:

Schatzi, the thing here is the potential Infinity Loop that has already been mentioned more than once.

[Cosi]

Meta-Knowledge aside, you simply explain to me what and how a character knows about all the "technical details" of all that stuff and we´re talking fair game here. Start with any fluff reasons, and I simply can´t take you seriously on this. "My teacher told me so" or "It is common knowledge"... lol wut?

He has bonuses well over twenty in both Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana), an INT score probably double what people in the real world do, and studies magic for a living. Also, the wish in question is for a Ring of Infinite Wishes. I don't really understand why you'd be unable to wish for that if you didn't know how wish worked. I can want the most powerful possible computer without knowing how that computer would work.

[Beheld]

@Beheld:

Schatzi, the thing here is the potential Infinity Loop that has already been mentioned more than once.

The infinite loop is that you wish for an item that casts Wish... you are done now.

[Segev]

The infinite loop is that you wish for an item that casts Wish... you are done now.

Technically, you need the item to be able to cast wish at least one more time than you had to cast wish to get the item.

[Necroticplague]

@Cosi:

The actual Wish is not a thing, you knowing what to wish for is, though. That´s the separation between player and character knowledge here and also what makes the main difference.

Meta-Knowledge aside, you simply explain to me what and how a character knows about all the "technical details" of all that stuff and we´re talking fair game here. Start with any fluff reasons, and I simply can´t take you seriously on this. "My teacher told me so" or "It is common knowledge"... lol wut?

Simply put, you are not in control here until you reach the levels that you actually can do that stuff yourself. Do not try to make a RAW case when we´re talking about the holes in RAW.

Well, some of the XP-free wish methods seem like the kind of things simple experimentation could show to work. If you know about Ice Assassin, and Efreeti seperately, it's not unreasonable to wonder "Hmmm.....does the copy of an efreeti retain it's magic ability." Then you can test it out pretty simply if you can cast the former, and can get a material component from the latter (planar binding, a reasonable agreement can probably be worked out pretty easily, given how little you want from it).

[Psyren]

I was just reading various notes and thoughts regarding the dreaded use of planar binding at 11th level to basically shoehorn an efreeti into using wishes non-stop on behalf of the PCs.

Then, while re-reading planar binding, I ran into this clause of the spell description: "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to."

I know there are various methods of dealing with wish abuse, but I would like to ask other DMs: would it be totally off the mark to interpret demanding wishes without some form of compensation (to the tune of gp per XP that would normally be required of the wish) to the efreet as being "unreasonable"? Let's consider the fact that without compensation, this is de facto slavery; unless you engage in strings of mind control and memory wiping to keep them from realizing they've been duped, or start killing every efreet you summon before releasing them (which is risky in and of itself), they know they are being kidnapped and enslaved to cast wishes until you let them go.

That alone seems to fit the very definition of "unreasonable" to me, especially for a creature whose description specifically states that they despise any form of servitude, arguably even more when they are magically compelled to appear in the first place.

This is indeed how Efreeti work at my tables, but you're never really going to get consensus on this issue because it's up to each individual GM to define what "unreasonable" means. For what it's worth though I agree with your assessment.

One suggestion I'll make is that you might want to consider leveraging Pathfinder Wish - it removes wishing for magic items from the "safe list," allowing you an easy way to hamstring wish loops that involve items like the Candle in-universe. The player can still wish for such an item, but they are now subject to partial/undesirable fulfillment (likely the latter in an Efreet's case.)

[eggynack]

@Cosi:

The actual Wish is not a thing, you knowing what to wish for is, though. That´s the separation between player and character knowledge here and also what makes the main difference.

Meta-Knowledge aside, you simply explain to me what and how a character knows about all the "technical details" of all that stuff and we´re talking fair game here. Start with any fluff reasons, and I simply can´t take you seriously on this. "My teacher told me so" or "It is common knowledge"... lol wut?

Simply put, you are not in control here until you reach the levels that you actually can do that stuff yourself. Do not try to make a RAW case when we´re talking about the holes in RAW.

But it basically is common knowledge. If I were put in control of a wish, the first thing I'd seek is a way to get some more wishes, and if magic items are the primary way to do magic things, then that's what I'd wish for. Hell, I'd even wish for it in that fashion in this world. "Gimme a second lamp, strange genie." That is what I'd do even without any knowledge of this game. And, unless I'm missing something critical, I do not have the ability to wish for stuff, and so by your reasoning should not know that that's what I should wish for. And that's me, a dumb Earthling. We're dealing with a person with intelligence far beyond anything we're capable of, with specific extra knowledge where magic stuff is concerned, and with the ability to cast spells. This is the opposite of meta-knowledge, in that I'd expect the character to come up with this plan way faster than I would.

Anyways, to return to the main thing, I agree with Beheld. What demand could possibly be any more reasonable than this one? You're not costing the efreet anything in the long term, or even in the short term, and you're not putting them at risk. What's unreasonable about it? Just that it's a demand? That seems a thoroughly ridiculous interpretation to me.

[Florian]

Well, some of the XP-free wish methods seem like the kind of things simple experimentation could show to work. If you know about Ice Assassin, and Efreeti seperately, it's not unreasonable to wonder "Hmmm.....does the copy of an efreeti retain it's magic ability." Then you can test it out pretty simply if you can cast the former, and can get a material component from the latter (planar binding, a reasonable agreement can probably be worked out pretty easily, given how little you want from it).

I´ve got no problem with that as that are all later game issues that turn up in the "endgame" phase and can be handled there and then.

But read up the OP post again, that especially mentions doing this kind of tricks at 11th level when Planar Binding starts to be an issue.

Calling and Binding an Efreet for those wishes? No biggie.
Knowing what exact item to wish for to start the infinity loop? Now that is something you do have to explain for me, though, as I do not know where your character gained that knowledge from.

Please notice that this has simply to do with player/character knowledge separation and nothing else.

@eggynack:

Answer me a very simply question first: How is your character aware that a very specific high level item exists at all?

Note that I do not disagree with you on general principle, you can wish for whatever you like, but please do answer the above given question on this one. I´m really curious about the answer.

Edit: Autocorrect, I hate you.

[Cosi]

How is your character aware that a very specific high level item exists at all?

1. It doesn't matter, because you're getting more castings of planar binding directly from wishes.

2. It doesn't matter, because you're wishing for a Ring of Infinite Wishes.

3. It doesn't matter, because you're wishing for "an item that will let me continue to bind Efreet and receive wishes without any ill effects".

4. You have Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft modifiers high enough to know Candles exist.

5. You wish to emulate a Divination which would provide the information necessary to know what to wish for to continue the loop.

[Beheld]

Calling and Binding an Efreet for those wishes? No biggie.
Knowing what exact item to wish for to start the infinity loop? Now that is something you do have to explain for me, though, as I do not know where your character gained that knowledge from.

Staves exist. Wizards know that Staves exist, and know what Staves do. A level 11 Wizard auto succeeds to know what Wish does, and he knows what staves are, and he knows what stat boosting items are.

So he wishes for a Staff of Wish and a Stat boosting item. This is an infinite loop. It gives him infinite Wishes.(Technically, it gives him a finite amount of wishes depending on the size of the XP invested in each wish in the first staff of wishes, but since the invested XP can be "a googleplex per wish" that finite number is so large you will wish for 40 more staves of wish, and then use each of those staves to wish for 40 more staves, and at the end of it, you will still have the ability to turn any one of those 160 wishes into more wishes than you will ever need.)

[eggynack]

@eggynack:

Answer me a very simply question first: How is your character aware that a very specific high level item exists at all?

Note that I do not disagree with you on general principle, you can wish for whatever you like, but please do answer the above given question on this one. I´m really curious about the answer.

Well, there's the basic, "It's an incredibly powerful magic item that, when found, would have massive impact on reality," answer. We talk about items of that sort in our reality, and we don't even have one. Would such an item be talked about more or less in a world where the stories are based on reality? Moreover, the wizard is, again, a wizard, and so knows a ton about this stuff, more about it than anyone in our world realistically knows about anything. If knowledge of this item exists, and said knowledge reasonably would exist even if it would be obscure, then said knowledge is likely available to the wizard. Probably with a knowledge roll of some kind, but one that the wizard would be likely to pass. Even without such fundamental knowledge, divinations would likely be able to guide the wizard's understanding of these things. I mean, you have access to a ton of spells just through the wishes you're using in this process, so you have access to knowledge you wouldn't even have ordinarily.

The second answer is that the wizard doesn't need to know about the specific high level item, or its existence. He need only know the general nature of the thing he wants. I mean, if you think about it, a wish for, "A magic item that grants three wishes," or even, "A magic item that grants three uses of whatever spell you're using right now," would still fit into the contours of a safe wish, even were you touching on custom item rules. And you're not touching on custom item rules, of course, so you'd likely wind up with a ring, but you don't necessarily have to. The existence of the ring is nice, but I don't think it's even strictly necessary. Hell, the wish loop doesn't even rely on said item's existence. Something cheaper like a candle of invocation would work as well.

[Necroticplague]

I´ve got no problem with that as that are all later game issues that turn up in the "endgame" phase and can be handled there and then.

But read up the OP post again, that especially mentions doing this kind of tricks at 11th level when Planar Binding starts to be an issue.

Calling and Binding an Efreet for those wishes? No biggie.
Knowing what exact item to wish for to start the infinity loop? Now that is something you do have to explain for me, though, as I do not know where your character gained that knowledge from.

Please notice that this has simply to do with player/character knowledge separation and nothing else.

At level 11, you'd know candles of invocation exist the same way you'd know about any other magic item. The sword of your fighter lackey most likely costs more. It's pretty reasonably possible for you to outright present the effreeti with a candle and say you want an identical one made.

[ShurikVch]

Someone who suggested to use efreeti as a cheap Wish source was either overly optimistic munchkin, or very insidious DM

Efreeti are Evil.
Evil!
Is it this hard to get?
Do such conceptions as Literal Genie or Jackass Genie means nothing to you?

There are a reasons behind the old saying "Be careful what you wish for..."
Even the "Never Say the "W" Word" is not an overreaction - Wish was rated (at 0th place) in Top 10 worst spells in D&D

Even the wishing for items which grant withes is not so much of a problem:
- Ring of Three Wishes? Staff of Wishes? Luck Blade? Sorry, one charge only. Every single time!
- Ring of Infinite Wishes? Don't exist, wish failed...

[Florian]

At level 11, you'd know candles of invocation exist the same way you'd know about any other magic item. The sword of your fighter lackey most likely costs more. It's pretty reasonably possible for you to outright present the effreeti with a candle and say you want an identical one made.

I´m one of those guys that have their PF Fighter outfitted with magical crafting feats and end the game with dual-wielding fully charged luck blades and having 3 to 4 Candles of Invocation as a backup, so don´t think of me as "Anti-Magic" here.

I just want to know, kind of hard facts, where you take that knowledge from and what check you would base it upon because me, I wouldn´t know that. So far, I have not found any hard proof in RAW on how to ultimately know any magic items w/o having met and identified it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, I gotta ask: Where is this "Ring of Infinite Wishes" people keep mentioning? I've never seen a ring with more than three wishes on it.