When Belkar dies, will we see his afterlife

[Peelee]

I consider his green-glow-trance-mode to be him making an official, word-for-word prophecy, backed by whatever underlying divine or magical power is involved. Regular talking could just be anything, whether comments informed by prophecy or just messing with the characters' heads.

You have yet to supply a convincing argument for why in the hell the Oracle would mess with people supplying fake prophecies when they will literally forget it the instant they leave the valley. Seriously. That is the ultimate exercise in futility, and the only reason this "excuse" keeps popping up is to bolster the argument that Belkar may not die, regardless of how baseless it is. I mean, hell, if you're going to say that the soothsayings of an oracle may be outright lies, what's to stop you from saying that even the ones "on the record" aren't also lies to try to nudge future events in that direction?

[Sylian]

No, Belkar is a sadistic monster and hasn't really stopped.

Hasn't he, though? He seems to actively work to improve the world and save the day. Might that be for egotistical reasons? Sure, but the point still remains: He worked really hard to expose the vampire, when he could've just bolted. He was willing to fool the gnome out of some money, but not take her on a date on false premises, and he felt bad about fooling her afterwards. Is he still Evil? Yes, him getting hurt by Protection from Evil proves as much, but I don't think he's unredeemable. He might end up at Chaotic Neutral at some point. Besides fooling the gnome (which, one could argue, was in the pursuit of the greater good, since they could use the extra resources to help save the world), and besides his treatment of the kobold (which, granted, was pretty Evil, although V took part in it too, and V's not Evil), what Evil deeds has he done in the past 200-300 comics or so?

[hroþila]

Belkar has recently discovered that empathy is a thing, but *some* degree of empathy is hardly unusual among Evil types. It's the norm.

Yes, it does make redemption theoretically possible. No, it doesn't mean he's particularly far along that road.

[Kish]

So if so many people guessed the plot twist about Durkon, and it was so transparent, why is the groupthink so much more adamant that Belkar's fate is the obvious one and not a future twist as well?

Dude, your barrage of derogatory terms aside, the fact is that hundreds of people have posted the "twist" you're so vehemently and aggressively arguing for, the first one five seconds after the Oracle's prophecy strip went up. You're getting more pushback than most of them because you're actively trying to stand in contradictory places--the green glowies matter, and they don't; "lookit the amazing twist, now expect a similar twist for Belkar" applies to one of Durkon's two prophecies--the one no one on the forum expected to be as simple as "he'll die and stay dead"--and not to the one that is, like Belkar stabbing the Oracle, coming true in the most literal way possible as Greg seems poised to go on a killing spree in dwarven lands. And you're backing this up, not with logic, but with text walls and insults.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Well, apologies for getting reactionary and defensive, but it sure seems like there's been this mad rush to pile on me and shout me out of the thread for daring to break from the prevailing orthodox interpretation of the Oracle's words about Belkar.

I'm willing to accept that what the Oracle says, even in normal speech, may well be prophecy. I simply believe that when the Oracle speaks in his green-glow-trance-mode, it's prophecy 100% of the time, whereas when he speaks normally, it could be anything and shouldn't necessarily be relied upon.

I'm not saying the Oracle is faking his prophecies or outright lying. But as a couple of other posters have said, he has liberally used doublespeak and loose interpretation before. And these are his known comments on Belkar's death, at least the ones I could find:

- "shouldn't bother funding his IRA" (#329, normal speech)
- "savor his next birthday cake" (#329, normal speech)
- "not long for this world" (#572, normal speech)
- "draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year" (#572, empowered prophetic speech)

Even allowing for normal speech potentially being straight prophecy, at no point does the Oracle literally say "Belkar will die", and given the plot twists flowing from past prophecies about someone else's death, I just think we all should be open-minded as to what the fulfillment of the above statements will end up being.

[NerdyKris]

So if so many people guessed the plot twist about Durkon, and it was so transparent, why is the groupthink so much more adamant that Belkar's fate is the obvious one and not a future twist as well? Obviously the prophecies around Durkon were a setup for the events currently transpiring in the comic. So why is it such heresy to suggest a similar pattern around the statements made on Belkar?

Because repeating the same plot a second time with Belkar would be a bit lazy. I've already said it in this thread.

• If the vampire/undead isn't Belkar's soul, then Belkar is still dead.
• In that case, the creature would have very little reason to be working with the Order and would turn on them
• We'd now have the same "betrayed by a creature pretending to be their dead companion" plotline that is currently happening.
• If the undead is Belkar's soul, it gets a little fuzzier, but we'd still be in "we just went through this with Durkon" territory.

The theory would have been perfectly sound before strip #877, and in fact was pretty likely, even to the point that a lot of people were convinced Belkar wasn't going to be saved during that confrontation until Durkon showed up. Going back to the discussion thread for #870 and you'd see a ton of people exclaiming "Oh man, vampire Belkar" and debating what would happen now. But once Durkon was turned into a vampire, it becomes less likely that Belkar would become one as well because it would be repeating the same plot device.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Because repeating the same plot a second time with Belkar would be a bit lazy. I've already said it in this thread.

• If the vampire/undead isn't Belkar's soul, then Belkar is still dead.
• In that case, the creature would have very little reason to be working with the Order and would turn on them
• We'd now have the same "betrayed by a creature pretending to be their dead companion" plotline that is currently happening.
• If the undead is Belkar's soul, it gets a little fuzzier, but we'd still be in "we just went through this with Durkon" territory.

The theory would have been perfectly sound before strip #877, and in fact was pretty likely, even to the point that a lot of people were convinced Belkar wasn't going to be saved during that confrontation until Durkon showed up. Going back to the discussion thread for #870 and you'd see a ton of people exclaiming "Oh man, vampire Belkar" and debating what would happen now. But once Durkon was turned into a vampire, it becomes less likely that Belkar would become one as well because it would be repeating the same plot device.

True, it would be repetitive, and that's a solid reason to doubt it. I'm not adamant that that's the way it's going to go, but it just seems to me that becoming some form of sentient undead is a prime candidate for drawing his last breath, being not long for this world, etc. without literally dying and staying gone -- since it seems the Oracle's statements are going out of their way to leave a path open for some reason yet to be seen.

It wouldn't really be the same dynamic as with Durkon and Lurkon though, since do the halflings even have any equivalent to Hel who would bother manipulating Belkar to similar ends? Also, Rich could potentially mine a fair bit of comedy out of Belkar's original soul and vampire soul actually getting along since they would both be Evil-aligned and thus he actually wouldn't change too much in outlook and personality. Or he could just end up some other kind of undead and satisfy the prophecies anyway.

On the other hand, Belkar straight-up dying, with or without going to the afterlife, would also be a similarly lazy and repetitive plot device since we already saw Roy go through that.

[hroþila]

I think you're forgetting another possibility why the Giant would have the Oracle word his prophecies regarding Belkar like that: to later subvert the expectations about a subversion by just straight killing him dead.

(Also, way too much of this "that would be bad writing, the Giant wouldn't do THAT" malarkey going on in this thread. Presumptuous as it sounds... I must appeal to Hroþila's Law here)

It wouldn't really be the same dynamic as with Durkon and Lurkon though, since do the halflings even have any equivalent to Hel who would bother manipulating Belkar to similar ends?

Hel didn't create Vampire Durkon in her capacity as the dwarven goddes of the dishonoured dead, but in her capacity as the Northern goddess of Death. In other words, if Belkar is a northerner, Hel would also create the vampire spirit for Belkar's body. And she'd probably take an interest on him at this point, since she needs all the soldiers she can get and she already got the "get a sufficiently powerful High Priest" thing covered.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I think you're forgetting another possibility why the Giant would have the Oracle word his prophecies regarding Belkar like that: to later subvert the expectations about a subversion by just straight killing him dead.

(Also, way too much of this "that would be bad writing, the Giant wouldn't do THAT" malarkey going on in this thread. Presumptuous as it sounds... I must appeal to Hroþila's Law here)

Hel didn't create Vampire Durkon in her capacity as the dwarven goddes of the dishonoured dead, but in her capacity as the Northern goddess of Death. In other words, if Belkar is a northerner, Hel would also create the vampire spirit for Belkar's body. And she'd probably take an interest on him at this point, since she needs all the soldiers she can get and she already got the "get a sufficiently powerful High Priest" thing covered.

Also distinctly possible. If I recall, didn't everyone think Malack was a vampire right off the bat, Rich dropped hints to the contrary, and then went for the un-twist by meeting people's expectations? So yes, it really could be anything, since in Rich's storytelling both twists and un-twists have come to pass.

Do we even know what pantheon Belkar falls under? Or none, if he is an atheist? To whose domain would his soul even go? Also it seems Hel has little regard for actual soldiers, as the only spawn Lurkon created were basically cannon fodder, one to stand in for him protected under the Godsmoot rules and the others to serve as a distraction prior to teleportation (and as a bonus since a couple actually survived). Most of them were spellcasters in their own right prior to turning, and the only ones who have been mentioned as crucial to the plan so far have been Lurkon and the Ex-Exarch.

Anyways, I'm going on tangents when the thread is about Belkar.

[Ruck]

Hasn't he, though? He seems to actively work to improve the world and save the day. Might that be for egotistical reasons? Sure, but the point still remains: He worked really hard to expose the vampire, when he could've just bolted. He was willing to fool the gnome out of some money, but not take her on a date on false premises, and he felt bad about fooling her afterwards. Is he still Evil? Yes, him getting hurt by Protection from Evil proves as much, but I don't think he's unredeemable. He might end up at Chaotic Neutral at some point. Besides fooling the gnome (which, one could argue, was in the pursuit of the greater good, since they could use the extra resources to help save the world), and besides his treatment of the kobold (which, granted, was pretty Evil, although V took part in it too, and V's not Evil), what Evil deeds has he done in the past 200-300 comics or so?

I'm not alone!

On the other hand, Belkar straight-up dying, with or without going to the afterlife, would also be a similarly lazy and repetitive plot device since we already saw Roy go through that.

Death can happen in more than one fashion and for more than one reason. (I mean, everyone dies.) Your "without going to the afterlife" qualifier is just, in my opinion, wrong-- we saw Roy go to the afterlife for a reason; if we don't see Belkar doing it, it's not the same plot device.

Personally, I've long thought the most likely scenario is

Spoiler: Belkar's fate

Show

Belkar dies doing something that protects or saves the rest of the Order-- or maybe just O-Chul, to make up for leaving him behind in Azure City-- and it's only this final sacrifice that finally pushes him from CE to CN. (Belkar's sacrifice could be for Durkon as well, but I think it's more likely we get Durkon back by the end of this book and Belkar doesn't die until the final book.)

I think you're forgetting another possibility why the Giant would have the Oracle word his prophecies regarding Belkar like that: to later subvert the expectations about a subversion by just straight killing him dead.

(Also, way too much of this "that would be bad writing, the Giant wouldn't do THAT" malarkey going on in this thread. Presumptuous as it sounds... I must appeal to Hroþila's Law here)

While the Doylist reasoning isn't the best case to be made, I don't think it's inapplicable at all. On the subject of the Oracle, while "The Giant wouldn't repeat a similar plotline" is a possible argument, I think a better one is that the Giant doesn't try to trick us. Actions people take are both foreshadowed and in-character. There aren't moments where it turns out the story we were being told was a lie and something else entirely was happening. (That's why I don't think the Oracle is lying-- he has no reason to do so and we have no reason to believe we're being lied to about his prophecies or the things he says.)

I find most of the far-fetched theories on the forum have roots in that idea. Generally, I take what's presented in the comic at face value.

[somethingrandom]

It also requires:
1) Someone willing to have them raised
2) a cleric of sufficiently high level who can cast the spell
3) a quantity of diamond dust

If any one of those is missing, no raise dead will happen. When Roy died, they had 1) and 3), but had great trouble locating 2)

When Belkar dies, they may well have 2) and 3) but will the Order even want to raise him?

Sorry about going back so far only started reading this thread today
There is another requirement
4) the deceased's remains (unless true resurrection is being used)

it is possible that Belkar will die in a manner that destroys/renders his remains unrecoverable.

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I really don't care which way it turns out. I figure Belkar's going to be unmade by the Snarl, but if it turns out to be something different, that's fine with me, too. Alive dead undead, whatever.

However, the only thing that makes me suspect there's a slight chance of a subversion is that Roy is so dead certain that Belkar's going to kick off and not be a problem any more. When a protagonist is that confident something is going to happen, especially when it's beneficial to them... well, as Elan would say, "Dun dun DUNNNN!"

[Mayrax]

I bet he'll come back just to annoy Roy.

[wumpus]

... Yes, him getting hurt by Protection from Evil proves as much, but I don't think he's unredeemable. He might end up at Chaotic Neutral at some point. ...

As Soon Kim said "redemption is a rare and special thing ... and not for everyone". Maybe Belkar could work off 9knazis of evil. But not under a year. And if he isn't there yet, he only has a week or so left. The other side of the coin is the motivation. V knows 'e made a mistake, and is working toward redemption. Belkar is simply working for number one (see the "conversion" strip), this isn't a remotely effective means at redemption. No matter how hard Mr. Scruffy is working on it, Belkar isn't really working on redemption (yet).

Belkar's true self image is "sexy shoeless god of war". He has a much more realistic chance of achieving that in the Abyss, and that's where I expect him to go. Note that Xykon has chosen an eventual fate similar to being destroyed much like the Snarl, and presumably choose it specifically to avoid the Abyss. Rich may decide that the Snarl is an "merciful death" for a semi-redeemed Belkar.

[Kish]

Xykon

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

chose to become a lich by preference to remaining in Lirian's prison, magicless, until he died of old age. All he knew about liches was what Redcloak told him, which didn't include anything about it depriving him of an afterlife whether that is actually true or not. He wasn't fussed about dying soon of old age before then; his anything-to-avoid-the-Big-Fire-Below line to Vaarsuvius was battle trash talk and nothing more.

[NerdyKris]

Agreed. His trash talk was saying that he did it to stay powerful, not specifically to avoid the Abyss. He was saying that power meant so much to him that he became a lich rather than admit defeat. It wasn't done out of fear of the afterlife, but out of refusal to not be powerful.

[Mandor]

Agreed. His trash talk was saying that he did it to stay powerful, not specifically to avoid the Abyss. He was saying that power meant so much to him that he became a lich rather than admit defeat. It wasn't done out of fear of the afterlife, but out of refusal to not be powerful.

Not sure about that. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html
Second to last panel.

Xykon: "Be Vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."
(bolding is mine)

[Chives]

Of course we will! Watching the Snarl eat through the afterlife would be a great establishing shot- both to showcase the snarl's power, and to show how horrifying it really is! Putting Belkar there would heighten the tension further and make it more impactful for us!

[Kish]

Not sure about that. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html
Second to last panel.

Xykon: "Be Vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."
(bolding is mine)

Yes, he was implying that not becoming immortal showed weakness. My point is that anyone who's read Start of Darkness knows

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

that the associated implication (that Xykon sought out being a lich because he was too tough and clever to let himself die) is a lie, that if Redcloak hadn't shoved "I can turn you into a lich--no, not a leech, a type of undead creature, no, not a zombie, you'd still have your mind and all your magic"--under his nose Xykon would probably be dead of old age now.

[Captain Raveman]

It might be neat to see an evil afterlife in the comic. Belkar's most likely going to the Abyss, though perhaps by the time he dies it'll be to Pandemonium instead.

[RossN]

I don't understand why people seem to think Belkar will end up kicking all sorts of butt in the Chaotic Evil afterlife, if he ends up there. Sure he is a mook killing machine and I am sure there are plenty of mooks down there but his track record against villains of similar level is not exactly stellar. I think it far more likely he'd be squashed into paste by someone nastier, stronger ir smarter (or all three.)

Now as it happens I think he won't end up in such an afterlife. It seems far more likely he'll die redeemed or at least quasi-redeemed (unfortunately - I personally don't think a few good deeds are enough to make up for some of the truly horrific deeds he's done.)

[Peelee]

Especially since one of the big themes of this comic is "evil really isn't cool, guys."

[Ruck]

I've been envisioning a scenario like this:

Spoiler: speculation

Show

Belkar dies saving Durkon, O-Chul, the whole Order, or in some similar fashion that makes it clear he's sacrificing his life for the team's / to save the world.

He gets to the Chaotic Evil afterlife, and meets whatever the CE equivalent of a Deva is for processing:

Deva: The Belkster! Death's Little Helper! So great to finally see you. We're big fans of your work, you know.
Belkar: Really?
D: Oh sure, sure. Few people have your penchant for unprovoked, whimsical killing. You'll fit in just fine here.
B: Well, I can't wait to get started, heh-heh.
D: I've just gotta review your file. I expect this to be a formality... Oh. Huh.
B: What is it?
D: It says here you died... sacrificing your life for your adventuring party... led by a Lawful Good fighter on a quest to stop the world from being conquered by a Chaotic Evil villain.
B: *blank stare*
*beat*
B: I'll just go over to the Chaotic Neutral afterlife, then...
D: I think that would be best.

[Peelee]

I've been envisioning a scenario like this:

Spoiler: speculation

Show

Belkar dies saving Durkon, O-Chul, the whole Order, or in some similar fashion that makes it clear he's sacrificing his life for the team's / to save the world.

He gets to the Chaotic Evil afterlife, and meets whatever the CE equivalent of a Deva is for processing:

Deva: The Belkster! Death's Little Helper! So great to finally see you. We're big fans of your work, you know.
Belkar: Really?
D: Oh sure, sure. Few people have your penchant for unprovoked, whimsical killing. You'll fit in just fine here.
B: Well, I can't wait to get started, heh-heh.
D: I've just gotta review your file. I expect this to be a formality... Oh. Huh.
B: What is it?
D: It says here you died... sacrificing your life for your adventuring party... led by a Lawful Good fighter on a quest to stop the world from being conquered by a Chaotic Evil villain.
B: *blank stare*
*beat*
B: I'll just go over to the Chaotic Neutral afterlife, then...
D: I think that would be best.

Yeah, pretty sure a Chaotic Evil afterlife won't have a gate at the door to check credentials, or a clerical position making sure they are sorted right. Probably just fall into the Abyss, or wherever they go.

[Ruck]

Yeah, pretty sure a Chaotic Evil afterlife won't have a gate at the door to check credentials, or a clerical position making sure they are sorted right. Probably just fall into the Abyss, or wherever they go.

At least one of the directors of the IFCC has an inbox. (Possibly the Lawful one, but I'm not sure which is which.)

Also, I'm pretty sure a Chaotic Evil afterlife will have whatever Rich wants it to have.

[dancrilis]

You have yet to supply a convincing argument for why in the hell the Oracle would mess with people supplying fake prophecies when they will literally forget it the instant they leave the valley. Seriously. That is the ultimate exercise in futility...

Not weighing on on the argument, but the above is spoken as if you have never screwed with anyone for your own personal temporary amusement despite knowing that it won't affect anything.

Personally when I screw with people for my own personal temporary amusement I prefer to do it when I know it won't affect anything.

[georgie_leech]

Not weighing on on the argument, but the above is spoken as if you have never screwed with anyone for your own personal temporary amusement despite knowing that it won't affect anything.

Personally when I screw with people for my own personal temporary amusement I prefer to do it when I know it won't affect anything.

This is the guy who founded the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling specifically so Belkar would suffer long term despite not remembering why. I don't think "not affecting things" is one his primary concerns.

[ChillerInstinct]

Not weighing on on the argument, but the above is spoken as if you have never screwed with anyone for your own personal temporary amusement despite knowing that it won't affect anything.

Personally when I screw with people for my own personal temporary amusement I prefer to do it when I know it won't affect anything.

Thing is, it'll affect one VERY important thing. One important thing that's directly, if not ONLY, important to the Oracle:

His reputation.

If it EVER came out that he wasn't on the level, the results would be DEVASTATING. When people are paying out the nose to know the future, they NEED to know that what they're getting is true (even if it's only literally true). Even one case of falsehoods would bring his entire livelihood crashing down around him. And you've got to remember, it's not the person who is predicted to die who got the prediction: it was a Lawful Good person who, more than likely, has got decades more living left in him and would probably LOVE to get back at him by exposing him as a con artist if given the ammunition to do so.

The Oracle can get away with being strictly literal, doing self-fulfilling prophecies, and all other sorts of trickery, but it's safe to assume that lying is right out.

[Seto]

At least one of the directors of the IFCC has an inbox. (Possibly the Lawful one, but I'm not sure which is which.)

The yellow one (who has an inbox) is Director Lee, he's the Demon. The purple one is Nero, he's the Daemon. The orange one is the Devil Cedrik.

[dancrilis]

Thing is, it'll affect one VERY important thing. One important thing that's directly, if not ONLY, important to the Oracle:

His reputation.

If it EVER came out that he wasn't on the level, the results would be DEVASTATING. When people are paying out the nose to know the future, they NEED to know that what they're getting is true (even if it's only literally true). Even one case of falsehoods would bring his entire livelihood crashing down around him. And you've got to remember, it's not the person who is predicted to die who got the prediction: it was a Lawful Good person who, more than likely, has got decades more living left in him and would probably LOVE to get back at him by exposing him as a con artist if given the ammunition to do so.

The Oracle can get away with being strictly literal, doing self-fulfilling prophecies, and all other sorts of trickery, but it's safe to assume that lying is right out.

To use xkcd.

Alt Text: You can do this one in every 30 times and still have 97% positive feedback.