The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

[2.5 cats]

Agreed--include.

[pearl jam]

Include


Also, as a side note, I realized as I read through the thread that I finally understand at least one of references in mod Roland's name that I didn't know when I first came here. lol

[Lord Torath]

We're not voting yet. Jasdoif will call for a vote according to the rules in the first post. Until that official call for a vote, we're just in the discussion phase.

[Jasdoif]

We're not voting yet. Jasdoif will call for a vote according to the rules in the first post. Until that official call for a vote, we're just in the discussion phase.

Yes...although at present the discussion looks like 22 people in favor and 8 against; if this holds it's going in without a vote. I've just been putting off deciding precisely when to hold the next update cycle leaving the discussion open in case anyone comes up not expecting there to be a new post after a few months of effective silence.

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Speaking of...we're on a new page again, so here's the post we're talking about for anyone who missed it:

Spoiler: It's (Still) Kinda Big

Show

If he can't do the job he should quit.

No.

I think the first crack in my faith in Burlew and OOTS came when he conveniently discovered the "lost" Christmas ornament featuring Miko while his hand was healing (and I bet he could have thrown it together with his off-hand). I had no problem with Burlew taking the time to have his hand heal properly, but there was certainly no break from the salesmanship to be tolerated.

Bills keep coming whether or not I can draw new comics. It's hopelessly naive to think that a 3-month gap in my ability to earn income would be something I could just absorb. There will never be a break in the salesmanship because there will never be an end to my bills, because we live in a capitalist society where one must earn money to eat. If you want me to stop selling products, install a socialist regime that has a generous attitude toward the cultural arts so I can have my living expenses covered for me.

What's weird is the die-hard fans coming out to defend the idea of a tortured, starving artist who is giving his work for free for the benefit of humankind from people who expect a masterpiece handed to them for free. OOTS wasn't started with the expectation of being someone's career--it was something Burlew was doing because he had a story to tell and wanted an audience to tell it to.

No, Wrong. Absolutely false. When I created this comic, I had no story, no goal, no nothing. I made this website as an attempt to launch a game design career because I had come in second place in that WOTC contest. I created the comic a few months later because I needed something to give people a reason to come back to the site and see my newest gaming article, so I decided to do a comic strip. I chose to do a gaming comic because I thought it would maximize interest among the people I was looking to draw to my site. I did so specifically toward the goal of having a career away from graphic design; it was always for the purpose of being a job. The story didn't come until later. This idea of a tortured labor of love that you're trying to project onto me is based on literally nothing. Certainly nothing I've ever said publicly. I love my comic, but I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't making money at it. I wouldn't be able to do it, I'd have to spend my time earning money.

If that wasn't the case, then what was the point of all those reader incentives to vote back in the day? He would have been selling it a buck a page if it was about making a career.

This is a ridiculous misunderstanding of how commerce works. No one would have paid for a comic they never heard of. You have to create value by showing the customer that they like it. It's a free sample, a loss leader. The incentive comics back then were done because moving up those ranking sites put the comic's name in front of other people's eyes. It was a marketing tool. And it was done during the period when I still had a day job to cover my expenses.

In fact, what you don't seem to understand is that the entire free comic is a loss leader. Take away the books and the PDFs and the t-shirts, and I have no legitimate business reason to post the free comic anymore. This is a book publishing business that happens to put out free preview pages every so often.

The thing is, Burlew is not the only creator of Internet media that does this--other creative minds I've followed have gone from working for the sake of the art to pushing the collection plate with such things as excessive ads and "premium content."

Yes, which should tell you something: that it's very hard to make a living doing art that you give away free on the internet! You treat making money like it's a sin, like we're supposed to be doing it for the love of art. The love of art does not pay my health insurance.

Here's the bottom line: This is a business. It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business. Some people give me money for the work I do; most don't. I did the math once, only 4% of the people who read the comic have ever purchased a single thing from me. The business stays afloat because 1.) some portion of that 4% will buy close to everything I put out, and 2.) every product has the chance of converting some of the 96% into some of the 4%, either because this is the product they've been waiting for or because their life circumstances have changed and now they have money that they didn't have before. But it is only because of that 4% that this whole thing is viable.

Now, if you want to make the argument that I am not doing as much as I could to maximize the health of the business, that's a different story. Would it be better for the long term revenue potential if I was updating more? Of course it would. More updates keeps the comic in people's minds, which keeps them more positive toward it, which influences their purchasing decisions. There is a strong business case for me updating more. You're not making that case, but it's there to be made.

But the thing is, I can't update more. Because see, these PDFs that you're railing about? I did the work for them back in 2013. It took me like 2 days to clean them up and convert them. The reason I haven't been updating the comic is because I've been working on the stories I owe the Kickstarter backers—stories I've owed them for 5 years as of tomorrow.

It's not the products that are keeping me from working on the strip, it's the work that other people have already paid for. And whatever vague unspoken commitment I might have to the readers of the free comic, I have a concrete binding commitment to the Kickstarter backers. I already took their money, and it's long gone. I need to prioritize the work I owe them above everything else. So if I was going to change something about how I manage my time, it wouldn't be to work on the free comic. If I could, I would put the free comic on hiatus for 6 months to finish the Kickstarter work. I can't, not without both infuriating my entire readership and tanking my income...which, again, doesn't exist unless I also put out products during that time. Which slows down the rate of the Kickstarter work even more.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that I am essentially in a Catch-22, have been for 5 years, and am muddling through it as best I can, one page at a time. Sorry if that's not good enough, but it's the best I'm capable of. You are free to take it or leave it, but it's probably not changing.

And no. I'm not going to quit. Even if it takes me another 5 years to dig out.

[Jasdoif]

...OK maybe the discussion is over after all Still has the strong 22-8 support, so it's not going to need a vote....

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On the Gaming Basis of the Comic The website was originally intended to support a game design career, and the comic was envisioned as a way to keep people visiting the site to see the "newest gaming article"; the comic's gaming basis was chosen for the intended gaming audience.

#1066

02/21/2017

Tentative, appears will be included without vote.

I'm intending to update the Index on Friday evening; that'll be a convenient time for me to do it and should provide enough opportunities to critique my proposed title and summary.

[Ephemera]

I kinda feel like the description should have a nod towards the notion that the comic is a (loved) job, not art for arts sake. I realize that may be sensitive terrain to some but it's kind of an important part of the post and a thoughtful defense of art as commerce...

[Gwynfrid]

I kinda feel like the description should have a nod towards the notion that the comic is a (loved) job, not art for arts sake. I realize that may be sensitive terrain to some but it's kind of an important part of the post and a thoughtful defense of art as commerce...

I agree. I think the proposed summary could be made shorter on the (secondary, imo) matter of the comic's origin, thus leaving room for something about the comic as a business. For me, the phrase "This is a business. It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business." is the most important in that quote, and it addresses something that many on the forum don't realize or have a hard time understanding.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know how feasible this is, but I wouldn't mind if the description could mention or allude to the 96%/4% comment.

[Jasdoif]

And here I thought the bit about the comic was the important part.

Okay then....

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On the Comic As a Business The website was originally intended to support a game design career, and the gaming comic was envisioned to keep people visiting the site to see the latest gaming articles. The comic was never produced purely for arts' sake, "It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business."

#1066

02/21/2017

Tentative, appears will be included without vote.

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I don't know how feasible this is, but I wouldn't mind if the description could mention or allude to the 96%/4% comment.

And why is that?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And why is that?

This is mostly utilitarian, but I see myself as most often wanting to find that quote to backup or contradict an assertion about how much of the readership are also customers. But, I can also understand how that might drag the quote off of what most people consider its relation to OOTS, and I also don't want to needlessly complicate your job in summarizing, so I think I can take it upon myself to remember on my own.

[Jasdoif]

So noted.

Well then!

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Proposed Item for Index 5.4
On the Comic As a Business The website was originally intended to support a game design career, and the gaming comic was envisioned to keep people visiting the site to see the latest gaming articles. The comic was never produced purely for arts' sake: "It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business."	#1066	02/21/2017	No vote required, will be included.

With nothing eligible to be voted on, there will be no vote; the entry is now in the Index.

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That was easy...admittedly the description looks kinda big, but it's not actually out of line with some of the other entries.

That said, it does make fourteen entries in the Supporting the Strip category...it seems the most natural place for business-type entries (alongside the entries about products and hypothetical products); but with the category's size I'm wondering if a category split is warranted...what's everyone else think?

[Haluesen]

Well there are a couple other groups under Story, Plot, and Characters that are that long, so the size thing isn't a big deal. I can't think of any real groupings to split that into as well, but if someone has a good suggestion for that then I would support it.

[Gwynfrid]

I would leave it as it is. If in the future the Giant comments more on the matter of the Kickstarter or on business issues, then maybe a dedicated category will become warranted. At the moment, only a couple of quotes might belong to such a group. It's not worth changing the structure, imo.

[Peelee]

I can't think of a better way to organize 'em; I say leave 'em as is.

On an unrelated note, is there a substantive difference between Character Appearances & Forum Speculation (aka, the "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" quote), and Hidden Meanings (aka, the "not everything in the comic has one" quote)? They both address different specific questions, but they both have basically the same answer.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I feel like there is some level of difference between the idea of a hidden meaning, and the idea that character art can only be drawn in so many ways. They both relate to the idea of seeing things that aren't there, but I feel like the cover different areas in that category.

[Peelee]

I feel like there is some level of difference between the idea of a hidden meaning, and the idea that character art can only be drawn in so many ways. They both relate to the idea of seeing things that aren't there, but I feel like the cover different areas in that category.

Imean, they both address the same issue, of "not everything is meaningful," just with two specific examples. It seems like they could be condensed into a single entry, with the one link at the main and the second link as a see also.

[Jasdoif]

On an unrelated note, is there a substantive difference between Character Appearances & Forum Speculation (aka, the "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" quote), and Hidden Meanings (aka, the "not everything in the comic has one" quote)? They both address different specific questions, but they both have basically the same answer.

The former is about hidden meanings in things that have visual features in common, while the latter is about meaning in things that have no apparent meaning. The former is centered drawing connections, the latter is centered on the absence of anything to connect.

They're very different in the source and methodology used to arrive at the same basic answer, which incidentally is why the former is in the Art category (the appearance aspect) and the latter is in the Reading-Too-Much-Into-It category (the assumption that something hidden is there). Conflating the two because they appear the same in the end is...well, a lot like what the former is about with respect to appearances.

[Ornithologist]

I think both are good to keep as is.

[Ruck]

I wasn't sure if this was the right place to ask this, but it seemed more appropriate than a new thread.

I'm looking for a quote or two from Rich about Superman that's appeared in a thread here somewhere, but I don't know which thread. Anyone know what I'm talking about and where I can find it?

[hamishspence]

After a quick glance with the Search feature - you may be thinking of this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...6&postcount=80

[unbeliever536]

So noted.

Well then!

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Proposed Item for Index 5.4
On the Comic As a Business The website was originally intended to support a game design career, and the gaming comic was envisioned to keep people visiting the site to see the latest gaming articles. The comic was never produced purely for arts' sake: "It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business."	#1066	02/21/2017	No vote required, will be included.

With nothing eligible to be voted on, there will be no vote; the entry is now in the Index.

---

That was easy...admittedly the description looks kinda big, but it's not actually out of line with some of the other entries.

That said, it does make fourteen entries in the Supporting the Strip category...it seems the most natural place for business-type entries (alongside the entries about products and hypothetical products); but with the category's size I'm wondering if a category split is warranted...what's everyone else think?

(eight months later...)

While I agree that there's no need to split the category, I think it could do with a rename, as "Supporting the Strip" doesn't really describe many of the quotes in there. I'd suggest something along the lines of "OotS as a Business", though I think my title also could be improved on.

[Jasdoif]

I wasn't sure if this was the right place to ask this, but it seemed more appropriate than a new thread.

I'm looking for a quote or two from Rich about Superman that's appeared in a thread here somewhere, but I don't know which thread. Anyone know what I'm talking about and where I can find it?

After a quick glance with the Search feature - you may be thinking of this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...6&postcount=80

That one seems most likely. Only one other quote comes to mind:

You know, I don't like the idea of some powers being labeled as story-breaking. Ever since I got introduced to the concept, I had in mind a good counter for it.

One of my favorite books has all major characters, including the protagonist,
1) being able to fly as easily as walk;
2) never needing money because they can create anything they need out of thin air, except for food, but it's not hard to get it;
3) having very high positions in their societies;
4) being quite capable Reality Warpers, albeit in different ways;
5) being able to communicate telepatically with emphatical images, not words;
6) having teleport powers.
Oh, and resurrection is avaliable in that universe too, restrictions on its use are mostly ethical/cultural.

It's a trilogy (not just one book!), and it's very, very interesting. NEITHER of these powers is story-breaking. No, not even reality warping and resurrection. Seriously. There is story to tell even with them.

There is a huge difference between EVERY main character having such powers, and ONLY ONE main character in a group of supposed equals having such powers. There is no power—no power in the world—that is story-breaking all by itself, especially if the author has the freedom to detail the costs and drawbacks of that power (a luxury I don't have with OOTS).

Superman by himself is not a problem. Superman as part of the Justice League is not a problem. Superman as a member of an ensemble FBI team IS a problem, because sometimes Agent Fred is supposed to be the one to catch the serial killer. You end up resorting to a LOT of kryptonite.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Looks as though there may be some quote-worthy (and my sig-worthy) material from Twitter.

Some highlights:

They're vampires. This is what vampires are: a negative energy consciousness created in the shape of your own worst impulses, stuffed into your dead body to animate it.

Correct, though obviously it came "pre-loaded" with certain knowledge, like language and whatever Hel told it to do as she was shoving it in there.

Yes, as a lizard-snake-thing, Malack was made by Nergal. But both he and Durkon's vampire are equally free-willed. He follows Hel's orders because he's a *cleric*, not because he's a vampire. Choosing to obey is still a choice.

[Keltest]

Sure, I'm down with including them, but don't we already have quotes on the free will of vampires?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sure, I'm down with including them, but don't we already have quotes on the free will of vampires?

Yes, the last is a briefer repeat of an existing, more detailed, forum post. The second one is probably worth including - the morsel about Hel having pre-loaded Greg with whatever information she felt he would need (which would include the Plan to destroy the world, plus whatever carrots she offered to purchase his loyalty) is definitely something I can see myself having to refer back to.

The first quote is generic enough that I think it is also a repeat of some other quote, so we probably can skip it.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Yes, the last is a briefer repeat of an existing, more detailed, forum post. The second one is probably worth including - the morsel about Hel having pre-loaded Greg with whatever information she felt he would need (which would include the Plan to destroy the world, plus whatever carrots she offered to purchase his loyalty) is definitely something I can see myself having to refer back to.

The first quote is generic enough that I think it is also a repeat of some other quote, so we probably can skip it.

Grey Wolf

Wheeeee!
Agreed.

[Emanick]

Yes, the last is a briefer repeat of an existing, more detailed, forum post. The second one is probably worth including - the morsel about Hel having pre-loaded Greg with whatever information she felt he would need (which would include the Plan to destroy the world, plus whatever carrots she offered to purchase his loyalty) is definitely something I can see myself having to refer back to.

The first quote is generic enough that I think it is also a repeat of some other quote, so we probably can skip it.

Grey Wolf

I'm for including the first quote too. Like the person who asked the question, I was unclear on whether the HPoH was correct/telling the truth in what he was saying. And I've read all The Giant's quotes on vampires a few times, so I don't think this was old information simply being rephrased.

[Gift Jeraff]

There seems to be a fair amount of readers that think the vampire spirits are pre-existing souls and/or Durkon's vampire spirit was lying about the "you on your worst day" aspect. I think the first in conjunction with the second helps quash that.

The third is probably more important for the Class & Level Geekery thread as it's the closest we've gotten to an official name on Malack's base creature.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think the first quote is important as a direct clarification on the worst day concept. It may be stated in the comic, but there’s no actual Word of God that the High Priest of Hel is 100% accurate except for it. I threw in the third quote since I think it phrases the free-will quote a little more neatly, and wanted to see what opinions the thread had on it, but I agree it’s not as good a quote for inclusion. I definitely think that 1 & 2 are worth including, however.

ETA: Also, would we want to make a transcript of the full series of comments and relative responses? I seem to recall that last time there were several things posted on Twitter we did a full transcription and then added specifically useful information as individual entries.

[Jasdoif]

Also, would we want to make a transcript of the full series of comments and relative responses?

I think these particular tweets contain enough context to stand on their own; as opposed to the question-and-answer routine a few years ago, where the Giant's tweets were just the answers.