League of Legends LXVI: Hosted by Jhin_In_Tonic and Starring Aurelion LOL

[Vogie]

You dont need to upgrade your Challice to an unholy grail though, and the +100% mana regeneration does look really useful if your not completely certain you can get blue.

And kinda dislike the idea that junglers are now even more forced to constantly feed their mid blue. Or for that matter that invade junglers now got an indirect buff, since stealing enemy blue could now be a major move.

I'm almost certain they'll do a pass over the mages to update their innate mana regen amounts... heck, they did that pre Season 5 and all they did was adjust how mana regen was represented.

That being said, Lost chapter looks a whole lot like what most people are looking for in the long-sustain lane. (AP, Flat mana, and a 20% mana on level up for 900G) It's a whole lot better than the tradeoff early mages have now, which is Get up to 1250, then make the choice between NLR, Catalyst, Boots + Regen or Boots +Rings. As long as you have 500 mana before purchase, it'll give more mana regen than Catalyst does.

I'm thinking you'll see more risk-reward mechanics built into the mana system as a whole. Right now we have Malz/Annie/TF/Lissandra/Xerath/Kass, who interact with mana in different ways, baked into their kit. I'm willing to bet each of the MYMU will have some sort of baked-in mana change.

They've already mentioned that Veiger will most likely be getting a new passive, and Spellthief's edge Brand items weren't among those that were changed, nor was mastery tree regen (Meditation or Dangerous Game). I'm also willing to bet there'll be a new type of potion or an update to the biscut that would give mana regen instead of the pitiful flat mana it gives now.

Wonder how the chalice effect works with manaless champions though?

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't... either that or it would just be an upgraded rejuv bead. (100% base health regen)

[Forum Explorer]

You dont need to upgrade your Challice to an unholy grail though, and the +100% mana regeneration does look really useful if your not completely certain you can get blue.

And kinda dislike the idea that junglers are now even more forced to constantly feed their mid blue. Or for that matter that invade junglers now got an indirect buff, since stealing enemy blue could now be a major move.

It's still a lost 1000 gold, because you aren't upgrading that into anything particularly useful. It exists sure, but it's basically a direct nerf to mages in general.

And yes that is annoying. It's even more annoying to be screwed over by really good invades or just greedy junglers who don't/won't realize how dependent mid will be on blue buff.

I'm almost certain they'll do a pass over the mages to update their innate mana regen amounts... heck, they did that pre Season 5 and all they did was adjust how mana regen was represented.

That being said, Lost chapter looks a whole lot like what most people are looking for in the long-sustain lane. (AP, Flat mana, and a 20% mana on level up for 900G) It's a whole lot better than the tradeoff early mages have now, which is Get up to 1250, then make the choice between NLR, Catalyst, Boots + Regen or Boots +Rings. As long as you have 500 mana before purchase, it'll give more mana regen than Catalyst does.

I hope so? Though it feels like this could go either way with them reducing it even more.

Lost Chapter builds into Morrelonomicon, and it's still worse mana regen then before.

[Manticoran]

They've already stated that they're changing blue buff to handle mana regen differently, as a note. And think of this as being like pre-season changes. If they don't work at first, that's to be expected. They'll shift the balance and base numbers and costs until it's approaching balanced, and then tweak something ELSE that'll unbalance the game. I'm actually expecting mages to be generally more powerful after these changes rather than less, particularly all-in mages like Malzahar, and AD casters like Varus, to be VERY strong. Mages who didn't really need mana regen to begin with are going to be much stronger, the only ones that'll be weaker are ones like Ziggs(Who was ALREADY really weak), and this lets them fix them to not either be oppressive waveclear/siege machines who never run out of long range poke and denial, or so weak that their constant poke doesn't matter, or with such high mana costs that even WITH mana fixing items they still can't cast constantly.

[Forum Explorer]

They've already stated that they're changing blue buff to handle mana regen differently, as a note. And think of this as being like pre-season changes. If they don't work at first, that's to be expected. They'll shift the balance and base numbers and costs until it's approaching balanced, and then tweak something ELSE that'll unbalance the game. I'm actually expecting mages to be generally more powerful after these changes rather than less, particularly all-in mages like Malzahar, and AD casters like Varus, to be VERY strong. Mages who didn't really need mana regen to begin with are going to be much stronger, the only ones that'll be weaker are ones like Ziggs(Who was ALREADY really weak), and this lets them fix them to not either be oppressive waveclear/siege machines who never run out of long range poke and denial, or so weak that their constant poke doesn't matter, or with such high mana costs that even WITH mana fixing items they still can't cast constantly.

Well, they did mention they are going to change a bunch of the immobile casters as well, so we'll see what those changes will do when combined with these item changes.

And I don't disagree that mages who don't really need mana are going to be stronger. The thing is, that they didn't really need to be stronger at the cost of mana hungry mages. Basically it's the mana hungry mages I'm worried about, who look to be completely nerfed to the point of being useless, unless their champ changes compensate for that.

[Manticoran]

Well, they did mention they are going to change a bunch of the immobile casters as well, so we'll see what those changes will do when combined with these item changes.

And I don't disagree that mages who don't really need mana are going to be stronger. The thing is, that they didn't really need to be stronger at the cost of mana hungry mages. Basically it's the mana hungry mages I'm worried about, who look to be completely nerfed to the point of being useless, unless their champ changes compensate for that.

Which I'm sure they will. Riot tends to not be in the habit of making entire classes of characters useless. Specific characters, possibly for years at a time? Yes. But entire swaths of the roster? Not for more than like a single patch.

[Artanis]

Two things that come to mind:


1) This stuff isn't even on the PBE yet, so they have time to work on it, and then even more time to test it.

2) The possibility of just deleting the rocket belt if it proves too problematic has been mentioned by Riot.


Thus, I'm going to wait until we get closer to the release before I panic.

[Maryring]

It looks like Kennen and Rumble are gonna get CDR out of these changes.

Not sure if I should be happy for more ults, or unhappy that they're probably gonna be rebalanced to the point that picking up the new CDR options goes from optional to obligatory.

[Olinser]

Well, they did mention they are going to change a bunch of the immobile casters as well, so we'll see what those changes will do when combined with these item changes.

And I don't disagree that mages who don't really need mana are going to be stronger. The thing is, that they didn't really need to be stronger at the cost of mana hungry mages. Basically it's the mana hungry mages I'm worried about, who look to be completely nerfed to the point of being useless, unless their champ changes compensate for that.

The problem is basically a triple edged sword that will annihilate balance in AP casters.

I mean for quite a while they've been tweaking mana costs of AP casters to bring them all in line with where they should be. Now they're completely changing the basis for how mana costs should be balanced. In turn

First, AP casters that do not use mana will become more valuable (Rumble, Katarina, Kennan)

Second, casters that have spells with large mana costs are being pidgeonholed into buying Tear or having to constantly go back to base to refill mana. This will further compromise their ability to deal with opponents that can afford to go straight to a damage item.

Third, casters that have significant mana regen/recovery built into their kits are going to become much more valuable because they can simply force their opponent to empty their mana bar counter shoving waves (Karthus, Cass, Veigar, Xerath for instance).

On a side note, while they are reworking Vlad, I notice a shocking lack of mention of Mordekaiser on the spell vamp front.

[Manticoran]

The problem is basically a triple edged sword that will annihilate balance in AP casters.

I mean for quite a while they've been tweaking mana costs of AP casters to bring them all in line with where they should be. Now they're completely changing the basis for how mana costs should be balanced. In turn

First, AP casters that do not use mana will become more valuable (Rumble, Katarina, Kennan)

Second, casters that have spells with large mana costs are being pidgeonholed into buying Tear or having to constantly go back to base to refill mana. This will further compromise their ability to deal with opponents that can afford to go straight to a damage item.

Third, casters that have significant mana regen/recovery built into their kits are going to become much more valuable because they can simply force their opponent to empty their mana bar counter shoving waves (Karthus, Cass, Veigar, Xerath for instance).

On a side note, while they are reworking Vlad, I notice a shocking lack of mention of Mordekaiser on the spell vamp front.

Probably because Mordekaiser hasn't been building much spellvamp for a while, since he's often better off building bruiser-y AP than a WotA or a Gunblade.

EDIT: Oh, and they mentioned that they failed with the Mordekaiser rework, so I think if he became strong enough to be played they'd probably just nerf him so he wasn't.

[Siosilvar]

Second, casters that have spells with large mana costs are being pidgeonholed into buying Tear or having to constantly go back to base to refill mana. This will further compromise their ability to deal with opponents that can afford to go straight to a damage item.

You mean the ones that are pigeonholed into buying Chalice now, and are out of the meta because Chalice sucks? Or they're Lux and they got overbuffed, then overnerfed, then slightly dialed back and are still alright?

And mana regen mages were meta not too long ago so I have a very hard time seeing how that's a new balance issue.

[Olinser]

You mean the ones that are pigeonholed into buying Chalice now, and are out of the meta because Chalice sucks? Or they're Lux and they got overbuffed, then overnerfed, then slightly dialed back and are still alright?

And mana regen mages were meta not too long ago so I have a very hard time seeing how that's a new balance issue.

I don't quite understand what you mean by mana regen mages were meta not long ago. Cass was kind of meta over a year ago but that was because of her sustained damage, not her mana regen. Veigar was meta last season when Riot massively underestimated how good reducing the delay on his meteor was, but again, not because of mana regen. Xerath saw play.... 2 years ago? after Ziggs got nerfed because he played similarly (and I actually play Xerath in mid right now, and his mana regen already lets him heavily out harass most opponents, nerf their mana regen he'll be able to throw them into the turret easily) Karthus hasn't been in meta in... 3 years? More?

Morello is a decent alternative to chalice as a more offensive item for champions that want some level of mana regen but don't want to commit to stacking Tear or ROA. Right now the new Morellos has ZERO mana regen unless you are actually getting kills/assists.

Currently you have 2 distinct mana regen items. Chalice is defensive with more mana regen and less damage. Morellos is offensive with less regen and more damage (plus the occasionally-useful passive).

And yes, Chalice is considered stronger on most champions right now. The answer to that is to level out the mana regen or nerf its other stats, not remove most mana regen from the game.

I mean I just fail to see the justification for this kind of fundamental change to AP itemization without real reason for it.

[Manticoran]

I mean I just fail to see the justification for this kind of fundamental change to AP itemization without real reason for it.

I mean, the reason can literally be "Eh, we thought it could be cool." and that's a real reason. They want to balance mages around large mana pools and poor regen, rather than balancing them around always having enough mana for whatever it is they want to do. So they're making these changes. That's their reason.

You can not like that as a reason, but that's the reason they've stated. They think they create a long-term healthier game state by shifting the items in this fashion, and honestly don't care about short-term balance if they can get to a better long-term game state. Again, as I said previously, think of it as being like the preseason updates where everything goes crazy because suddenly Graves has an AoE auto attack and Lucian's ult deals 4534654 damage at massive range, and Kog'maw can evaporate enemies even more than he currently did. None of that was in a balanced state when they changes came through, but honestly, we now have a better game because they were changes that Riot was willing to make, willing to fail at, and willing to then fix as best they could.

[Vogie]

I mean, the reason can literally be "Eh, we thought it could be cool." and that's a real reason. They want to balance mages around large mana pools and poor regen, rather than balancing them around always having enough mana for whatever it is they want to do. So they're making these changes. That's their reason.

You can not like that as a reason, but that's the reason they've stated. They think they create a long-term healthier game state by shifting the items in this fashion, and honestly don't care about short-term balance if they can get to a better long-term game state. Again, as I said previously, think of it as being like the preseason updates where everything goes crazy because suddenly Graves has an AoE auto attack and Lucian's ult deals 4534654 damage at massive range, and Kog'maw can evaporate enemies even more than he currently did. None of that was in a balanced state when they changes came through, but honestly, we now have a better game because they were changes that Riot was willing to make, willing to fail at, and willing to then fix as best they could.

This is quite true. Riot doesn't want to rest on it's laurels, but rather make a dynamic game with thematic niches. Most games have a legacy component like Magic: The Gathering, where there are "strictly better" cards either in the future OR the past (depending on the card type) and that cannot be changed outside of banning them outright. With League, everything is on the table, and able to be changed for the better.

I don't particularly enjoy the directions that they're taking, but I understand them. For example, I loved building Hextech Revolver as the first item on Malz in Normal games (E provides mana AND health! Lane for days!), but the existence of spell vamp as something that can be bought warped the game around it, so on that level, I understand the removal of it.

First, AP casters that do not use mana will become more valuable (Rumble, Katarina, Kennan).

I've always been critical of Riot's use of Resourceless champions. I don't mean Kennan/Rengar/Rumble, because they do have a resource, albeit a flawed or strange one, that is built in as a limiter. But I definitely think Katarina and Vlad should have SOMETHING that limits them outside of "Oh, well, they can't have Hard CC" in design. Yasuo has a Flow mechanic that interacts only with his W and his passive, Shyvana has a blood mechanic that interacts solely with her Ultimate... while not ideal, these are fine - they do what they need to do. I would love to see a blood meter on Vlad so the enemy laner can see if he's able to pool. A flow, energy, ferocity or even Ammo mechanic on Katarina (ha! she's out of knives, can't use Q or R until...), just... something.

Second, casters that have spells with large mana costs are being pidgeonholed into buying Tear or having to constantly go back to base to refill mana. This will further compromise their ability to deal with opponents that can afford to go straight to a damage item

That's not entirely true. The new catalyst encourages trading and poking, and the Lost Chapter rewards staying in lane a long period of time, and the Upgraded Morellonomicon now has the "Kills and Assists restore 20% of your maximum Mana." as of 4/11.

I'm okay with they're experimentation because they have also shown they're okay with creating interesting mechanics that are unlike we've ever seen prior to that. Bard Charms, Skarner towers, Zilean channeling experience to teammates, Zac's blobs, Poppy's Shield, Sol's comets... these all came out of the blue, and I'm sure there's more up their sleeves I can see them making new things.

• Zyra's unpopped W providing mana-giving plants when not transformed or stepped on.
• Vel'Koz get mana back when he completes his passive hits 3 stacks
• Ziggs getting mana from either landing a Short Fuse or not using the short fuse after a period of time.
• Ahri's passive or Foxfire have a mana regen component.
• Leblanc getting mana back from popping her Q debuff.
• Someone Else getting Cass's old passive (reduction of mana costs over time based on # of spells cast)

And that's just off the top of my head. Rito has TEAMs of people figuring this stuff out, and also adjusting things on the fly due to testing (like the PBE response change to Morellonomnomnomicon)

[Talesin]

I would love to see a blood meter on Vlad so the enemy laner can see if he's able to pool. A flow, energy, ferocity or even Ammo mechanic on Katarina (ha! she's out of knives, can't use Q or R until...), just... something.

Oddly I quite like resourceless champions because they are something different and they are a counter to certain ways of playing. If those large mana cost champions have to buy tear or back all the time then why not run a Katarin or a Vlad and take advantage of that by pushing for days and roaming to pick up kills?

It can be frustrating to play against but that is the point. Removing Kat's dependence on CDR by baking that into her passive is a problem for me because it removes CDR as a valuable stat and that allows her to focus on pure AP builds, when half the fun of a resourceless champion is that you get to use her abilities more frequently.

However it does limit the skill ceiling slightly and i'm sure a 'blood meter' or whatever you want to call it, that increased the effectiveness of Vlad's kit, or maybe allowed him to pool at a certain resource count, would add counterplay and complexity to the champion. However it just then becomes a resource like rage or energy just with a different title and I don't think that's necessarily better..

[Forum Explorer]

Morello is a decent alternative to chalice as a more offensive item for champions that want some level of mana regen but don't want to commit to stacking Tear or ROA. Right now the new Morellos has ZERO mana regen unless you are actually getting kills/assists.

Currently you have 2 distinct mana regen items. Chalice is defensive with more mana regen and less damage. Morellos is offensive with less regen and more damage (plus the occasionally-useful passive).

And yes, Chalice is considered stronger on most champions right now. The answer to that is to level out the mana regen or nerf its other stats, not remove most mana regen from the game.

I mean I just fail to see the justification for this kind of fundamental change to AP itemization without real reason for it.

The new Morellos also has mana granted when you level up.

Also are you sure about the Chalice? The only times I see it taken over Morellos is you are getting poked hard (and need the extra MR) or you are so mana hungry you need the extra mana regen. Otherwise I see people taking Morellos for more damage and the ability to inflict grevious wounds.

[Siosilvar]

Chalice is considered stronger on most champions right now.

wut

Chalice is trash, bruh, it's bought 1/3 as often as Morello's and all of the champions that use it over Morello's have a terrible win rate except for Vel'koz (who benefits more from more spells than AP) and Galio (who gets AP from MR). And that's before you bring Twin Shadows into the mix.

[Olinser]

The new Morellos also has mana granted when you level up.

Also are you sure about the Chalice? The only times I see it taken over Morellos is you are getting poked hard (and need the extra MR) or you are so mana hungry you need the extra mana regen. Otherwise I see people taking Morellos for more damage and the ability to inflict grevious wounds.

No. Lost Chapter has mana regen when it levels up. Morellos loses that passive - it explicitly says this. Obviously they could change it, but that's where they are now.

[Manticoran]

No. Lost Chapter has mana regen when it levels up. Morellos loses that passive - it explicitly says this. Obviously they could change it, but that's where they are now.

Accurate. So make your Chapter into a Morello when you start team fighting and getting kills and assists more often than you're leveling. Doesn't seem like very hard of a decision point, honestly, and is a somewhat interesting one.

[Olinser]

wut

Chalice is trash, bruh, it's bought 1/3 as often as Morello's and all of the champions that use it over Morello's have a terrible win rate except for Vel'koz (who benefits more from more spells than AP) and Galio (who gets AP from MR). And that's before you bring Twin Shadows into the mix.

If you want to talk about win rate, there are 2 Chalice users with above a 50% win rate (Velk, Galio) and 2 Morello users (Karma, Ahri). So I could just as easily say Morello users have terrible win rate except for Karma and Ahri (and Karma only barely cracks 50).

By Twin Shadows I assume you mean Frost Queen's Claim, and literally the only champion that currently builds it on mid is Lulu.

1/3 is simply not accurate. Morello is a bit more common, but not by nearly that much.

Right now BOTH of them need a buff to be able to compete with ROA and manaless champions. And Riot's answer is to... nerf ROA mana, remove mana regen and change to flat mana? I mean obviously the end intent is balance, but I'm not quite understanding the thought process that takes them on that path.

[Siosilvar]

1/3 is simply not accurate. Morello is a bit more common, but not by nearly that much.

One. Third.

And yeah, the solution to "balancing mana vs. regen is difficult and we haven't been satisfied with our solutions over the past few years" is to change the problem.

[Ivellius]

I've always been critical of Riot's use of Resourceless champions. I don't mean Kennan/Rengar/Rumble, because they do have a resource, albeit a flawed or strange one, that is built in as a limiter. But I definitely think Katarina and Vlad should have SOMETHING that limits them outside of "Oh, well, they can't have Hard CC" in design.

You know that Vlad has health costs on his W and E, right? (I'm not saying that his resource has particularly worked, but he does have one.)

[Vogie]

If you want to talk about win rate, there are 2 Chalice users with above a 50% win rate (Velk, Galio) and 2 Morello users (Karma, Ahri). So I could just as easily say Morello users have terrible win rate except for Karma and Ahri (and Karma only barely cracks 50).

By Twin Shadows I assume you mean Frost Queen's Claim, and literally the only champion that currently builds it on mid is Lulu.

1/3 is simply not accurate. Morello is a bit more common, but not by nearly that much.

Right now BOTH of them need a buff to be able to compete with ROA and manaless champions. And Riot's answer is to... nerf ROA mana, remove mana regen and change to flat mana? I mean obviously the end intent is balance, but I'm not quite understanding the thought process that takes them on that path.

It may only be built on Lulu NOW, but that wasn't always the case - not too long ago FQC was a staple on mid laners as it gave everything wanted (CDR, AP, Regen, extra CC) and then added Tower damage & gold on top. They've nerfed it since then, but it's still good... may be better if some of the proposed changes get locked in.

There's also the as-of-yet-untouched Meditation mastery... Increasing the amount of flat mana that casters build also increases the viability that this is chosen on someone other than supports. As we've seen with Malz E and Annie Q, Riot thinks that choosing regen over damage is a "meaningful choice"

By the same token, the New RoA is probably focused more on AP & Health, but AFAIK retains the new Catalyst passive, converting damage taken into flat mana. I'm willing to bet this change is more focused on making the Rod less of a "Buy first on everyone" but more focused on the Immobile Mages that are going to be taking some to the chin.

Right now, like Manticoran said, the "average mage" looks like they'll be starting with Last Chapter for laning, then build their chosen damage item and Upgrade to Morello's once the teamfights start. It'll be the mage version of BF Sword followed by Zeal that we're seeing on many marksmen (or Vampiric into Hurricane for Kalista)

The ability-spamming mages will have to figure out Tear > Chapter or Chapter > Tear for viability.
Utility mages MAY go with the new Athene's... (definitely if they can use the heal on themselves, but if not... it's kinda meh)

[Olinser]

I mean, I guess my main issue with the change is that they are putting it out in mid-season. This is an awfully fundamental change to be putting out mid-season.

I'd much rather they waited until next season.

[Manticoran]

I mean, I guess my main issue with the change is that they are putting it out in mid-season. This is an awfully fundamental change to be putting out mid-season.

I'd much rather they waited until next season.

Mid season is basically pre-season though. There's no big things going on, they have a few weeks where no one minds if the pro plays are happening one patch back...

[Olinser]

One. Third.

And yeah, the solution to "balancing mana vs. regen is difficult and we haven't been satisfied with our solutions over the past few years" is to change the problem.

Not. Useful. Chart.

That's TOTAL BOUGHT, not number of champions building the item. All your link means is that right now is that more popular champions buy Morello, not that 3x as many champions prefer it.

Ezrael is a great example right now. Ezrael is in a huge number of games (around 30% of games). Ezrael builds Frozen Gauntlet. It is not an accurate statement to say that Frozen Gauntlet is built by 30% of ADCs. Because it isn't. It's built by 10% of ADCs (2 out of 19 - Urgot builds it too) It is in 30% of games only because Ezrael is in 30% of games. And if Ezrael were to be meganerfed, Frozen Gauntlet would completely disappear as an ADC item, despite the number of champions actually preferring the item remaining completely unchanged.

Right now the most popular mids that build 1 of the 2 items are indeed building Morellos. But if they were to suddenly buff Orianna and her play rate skyrocketed, Athene's would appear in significantly more games. Not because it became a better item, but simply because a champion that prefers it becomes more popular.

Right now, yes, MORE champions build Morello. But nowhere close to 3x as many.

[Siosilvar]

-snip-

tl;dr: you're interpreting what I'm writing differently than I wrote it. I could probably stand to clarify a bit more but honestly I'm not really invested in this discussion so much as correcting false information. And right now that mostly boils down to the idea you seem to have that Riot doesn't have any reasons behind what they're doing, the current state of things is merely secondary.

[Recaiden]

Right now, yes, MORE champions build Morello. But nowhere close to 3x as many.

Not a useful distinction. 'Instance of champion' is more important than 'all games per champion as one data point' because it represents what is actually getting played and built. Who cares what % of Yorick players do what if I never see a Yorick?

Morellos gets built 3x as often and that's that.

[Olinser]

tl;dr: you're interpreting what I'm writing differently than I wrote it. I could probably stand to clarify a bit more but honestly I'm not really invested in this discussion so much as correcting false information. And right now that mostly boils down to the idea you seem to have that Riot doesn't have any reasons behind what they're doing, the current state of things is merely secondary.

Poor attempt at a straw man.

Obviously they have a reason. The question is whether it is a GOOD reason. And so far I haven't actually heard anybody try to argue that they think the changes are a good idea.

And of course the equally as big question is why they are choosing to spring a change this big in the middle of a season, rather than between seasons.

[Olinser]

Not a useful distinction. 'Instance of champion' is more important than 'all games per champion as one data point' because it represents what is actually getting played and built. Who cares what % of Yorick players do what if I never see a Yorick?

Morellos gets built 3x as often and that's that.

It is a very big distinction.

It's a distinction between 'Morello's is 3x as popular as Athene's' and 'Champions that build Morellos have an aggregate play rate 3x that of champions that build Athene's'. Which is a big difference, especially given the context of which is a more useful item.

One is a straight comparison between items and completely fails to acknowledge that there are many factors other than the item influencing that proportion.

Just blindly comparing the instances of items present in a game completely fails to capture why they are in a game.

[Siosilvar]

I mean I just fail to see the justification for this kind of fundamental change to AP itemization without real reason for it.

?

I'm so done with mincing words here, though, this is just tiring me out.