Erfworld 62 - Page 56

[BarGamer]

I think all of you are forgetting something. What two resources did we learn about last comic? That's right, Mathamancy and Luckamancy. In short, Parson predicted this battle, and now he's gonna tilt it in his favor. Maybe it's with those magical calculations that he decided 3 dwagons was the crucial variable that determined victory. Maybe he has something entirely different in mind. We'll just have to wait.

I've got 50% odds that we're gonna see a Charlie comic on Saturday. :D

[Twilight Jack]

*Laughs* I missed that, and thank you. This leads me to my gamming paronoia though. Admitedly its the back hex, but you have a hex thats the weakest of the 6 populated by 3 of the weakest dwagons. I would be asking why?

I am kind of disapointed with Vinny, because of this, now that you made me think on it. His sences so far have been great when confronted with this type of situation.

There are two possible reasons why. The first reason is just beginning tactics. When trying to protect wounded dwagons and warlords with such a formation, it's best to overload the side actually facing your opponents. It's potentially okay to leave the back hex weaker, if most units won't have enough move to attack it. Even though that back hex is weak, it only has to fight the units that can reach it. Since we know that Ansom *has* to attack that formation *this* turn, it makes no sense to space the dwagons out evenly. That simply invites a frontal assault with as many troops as Ansom can bring to bear. By loading up the nearest hexes with extra dwagons, you take that option off the table. Having to live with one weak hex is just the price you pay, and you keep it as far from the opponent as possible, to ensure it's tougher to attack effectively. That's what Ansom and Vinnie are seeing, and it makes perfect sense if you don't consider the possibility that the warlords you're looking to croak aren't in the formation at all. A single weak hex that is hard to get at is the smartest way to protect the center hex if you don't have enough dwagons to make all the hexes strong.

The other reason is less obvious and only makes sense if you *want* your opponent to make it through to the center. That only makes sense if the warlords you're protecting aren't actually there. Since Ansom and Vinnie don't know that and have no reason to suspect otherwise (remember that they've been fighting Stanley this whole time, who isn't exactly brimming with military genius), they see what Parson wants them to see: a potential weakness in an otherwise strong defense.

One other thing to consider, Flakey, is that you'd not be doing yourself any favors by attacking a stronger hex. You've fallen into the trap by attacking at all. By attacking a well-defended point in the circle, you've just picked a tougher fight and the end result is the same as if you'd attacked the weak one. Your real target is just beyond the field of vision and will heal completely if they are still alive at the end of the turn. You're still going to have all those refreshed and warlorded dwagons handing you your ass as soon as dawn comes.

[shakes019]

I've got 50% odds that we're gonna see a Charlie comic on Saturday. :D

Arrgh! I hope not, but it would make sense.

[Krelon]

quoting just a part of the original post:

...
One other thing to consider, Flakey, is that you'd not be doing yourself any favors by attacking a stronger hex. You've fallen into the trap by attacking at all. By attacking a well-defended point in the circle, you've just picked a tougher fight and the end result is the same as if you'd attacked the weak one. Your real target is just beyond the field of vision and will heal completely if they are still alive at the end of the turn. You're still going to have all those refreshed and warlorded dwagons handing you your ass as soon as dawn comes.

I slightly disagree. If you attack a stronger hex you'll have enough move left to return to the column and keep all units together for maximum protection.

[TiamatRoar]

quoting just a part of the original post:


I slightly disagree. If you attack a stronger hex you'll have enough move left to return to the column and keep all units together for maximum protection.

Ansom doesn't have enough units available to defeat a stronger hex right now while still having adequate units left over to finish off the warlords and wounded dragons. He says so, himself. Well, more specifically, he says "we must conserve our forces to take on the base hex", but the meaning is the same.

[Monan]

If Ansom chooses to send a scout in after croaking the weak hex of dwagons, then he will not take the bait, he'll reinforce the column as much as he can, and on my turn the Dwagon flight would hit targets of opportunity not guarded by the opposing fliers on the way back to Gobwin Knob.

Good plan but you are forgetting

Ansom: Our forest units will attack. We'll swing around behind, and punch through the weak hex."

Vinnie: Uhhhh... That'll eat up about all of our move, boss.

Therefore to even get in the position to send in a scout to see what is in the center hex Ansom's forces need to bring in enough folks to "punch through." the units that will be there will not have much move left and I assume that they will not have enough move to make it back and reinforce the column. Thus they will be stranded away from the column and the column will be weaker with out their help of the forest units. Ansom's plan is making the gamble on the assumption that the Dwagons are there and if they are, the effort is worth it. If not they are suckin.

[Krelon]

Ansom doesn't have enough units available to defeat a stronger hex right now while still having adequate units left over to finish off the warlords and wounded dragons. He says so, himself. Well, more specifically, he says "we must conserve our forces to take on the base hex", but the meaning is the same.

wouldn't that make the dwagons too powerful?
if 4 are too much to take on with Ansom, Jillian and all forest capable units then how was Ansom supposed to take Gobwin Knob at all with over 50 dwagons inside? Besides all the dwagons could not prevent the loss of 11 cities previously owned by Stanley.

I would put dwagons somewhere at 50% more strength than a gwiffon, twice the number of hits than a gwiffon plus a nasty breath (bonus) attack. They are not invincible.

[Zhrec]

By seeing previous page. I would gess parson done it for trap. Units move in position, using up all moves. Boom here we go new pack of fresh dragons from the midle of the formation, some sort of black deadly creatures %). And Arson is in trouble. Plus Parson could moved in not only dwagons, but something else. He have a plan, and 40 siege units was just the begining.

[SteveMB]

wouldn't that make the dwagons too powerful?
if 4 are too much to take on with Ansom, Jillian and all forest capable units then how was Ansom supposed to take Gobwin Knob at all with over 50 dwagons inside? Besides all the dwagons could not prevent the loss of 11 cities previously owned by Stanley.

I would put dwagons somewhere at 50% more strength than a gwiffon, twice the number of hits than a gwiffon plus a nasty breath (bonus) attack. They are not invincible.

The key advantage is the flyer-friendly terrain (heavy trees, where flyers can be effectively fought only by other flyers and units that are specifically forest-capable). Being separated from most of his flyers, Ansom can bring only the forest-capable units to bear. He can't just bypass the dwagons, because the ones that raided him last turn will heal and do it again before he can regain air cover. Thus, he's stuck attacking them at a time and place of the enemy's choosing, which is not a good thing.

(Judging from the statement that only a few of the fastest gwiffons and the Archons can get to the battle site this turn, most of the flyers aren't going to be able to return and take up useful defensive positions before Stanley's next turn. They apparently got from the column to rendevous with Webinar's group in one turn, but that was after many of them moved from their normal postions to the front of the column on the preceding turn.)

[Vatharian]

What about this situation:
Ansom doesn't feel like going into the battle by himself.
Yet, he wants uncroaked warlords KIA. So he sends... Jillian with Arkenpliers.
The may be core of his plan. Wouldn't you agree?

[Twilight Jack]

I slightly disagree. If you attack a stronger hex you'll have enough move left to return to the column and keep all units together for maximum protection.

But if the goal is not a hit and run on some dwagons but the utter destruction of a large percentage of Stanley's warlords, then you can't afford the possibility of not breaking through with enough force left over to wipe out two dozen more (admittedly badly wounded) dwagons with those three warlords. Failing to destroy the warlords is not an option, because if the warlords are still alive at the beginning of Stanley's turn, then you're right back in the same situation as last turn. Also, unless you wanted to fight through a six dwagon hex, you're not saving that much move. The four dwagon hexes are adjacent to the three dwagon one. Only the six-stacks are close enough for the saved movement to be significant, and that's a fight with a significantly higher chance of failure.

[CNagy]

Parson will not attack Ansom head on, the dragons won't swoop in to attack; it would be like risking the entire outcome of the war on a coin toss when you know that the long war is more to your favor.

Jillian, five gwiffons, Charlie's Archons, Ansom... stack of 10 at least. We know Jillian is a beast capable of solo'ing a blue dwagon. Charlie's Archons are powerful (the price he asks is assumed to be high, and for just 3 units). Ansom is a charismatic leader whom we can assume has a very high leadership score and probably is no slouch in the combat department either. Three of the five gwiffons add to the stack bonus. And with the forest capable units taking the weak hex, Ansom's strike force will be fresh.

It doesn't seem like a battle Ansom and crew can win-- this is true. But it also isn't one that Parson will win with negligible casualties (including any warlord he throws into battle; we have no reason to believe he knows about the Disruption effect the Arkenpliers have,) and there is still an army with nearly 60% of its original siege capacity bearing down on Gobwin Knob.

So, on the one hand he has a battle that he would probably win (counter-attack on Ansom) that would involve a very real threat of unit loss and does not necessarily ensure that the war is over (there are a lot of sides making up the Alliance, and so close to Gobwin Knob-- they might press on the attack.) On the other hand, he has a chance to deal crippling damage to the army (wipe out most of the remaining siege) while taking little or no losses, making the walls of Gobwin Knob all but impenetrable, and fooling Ansom once again.

The smart player, who wants to win (and moreover wants the assured victory,) will take the longer road rather than risk the shortcut. A long war favors Gobwin Knob, who produces units each turn. A long war provides Parson more opportunities to work his strategic magic with little risk. Lastly, Parson seems like the player to strive for total domination with minimal loss.

[kirn]

Strategically, movement is the key factor. Fighting 3 dwagons isn't much different than fighting 4 or 5, especially if you're planning to follow that up with 12+ dwagons and 3 warlords. The only reason to go for the 3 dwagons is economy of force, which the good guys are going to be all about.

By making the weak spot on the far side Parson is forcing them to sacrifice movement in exchange for hit points. He's giving Ansom a reason to divide his forces, starting with those capable of actually endangering Paron's units. Once they're in the forest, there is a limited number of units that can support even if they find out its a trap, and having burned all their movement, they'll still be stuck in the forest. If they had just punched through the top of the ring they'd still have movement to run away and make the trap useless.

Parson just created a small battle with the column on one side, the forest capable units on the other and a big line of dwagons that don't have to strafe the column to kill them. Since they are within arms length, they'll still have plenty of movement to attack the column.

I think if Ansom takes the obvious route and protects the seige with the archers it might force the hardcore fighters out of the stack, making the archers a soft target as well. If he doesn't do so, the siege remains vulnerable.

[TiamatRoar]

wouldn't that make the dwagons too powerful?
if 4 are too much to take on with Ansom, Jillian and all forest capable units then how was Ansom supposed to take Gobwin Knob at all with over 50 dwagons inside? Besides all the dwagons could not prevent the loss of 11 cities previously owned by Stanley.

I would put dwagons somewhere at 50% more strength than a gwiffon, twice the number of hits than a gwiffon plus a nasty breath (bonus) attack. They are not invincible.

Tell Ansom that, then. He said it, not me.

[CNagy]

Good plan but you are forgetting

Ansom: Out forest units will attack. We'llswing around behind, and punch through the weak hex."

Vinnie: Uhhhh... That'll eat up about all of our move, boss.

Therefore to even get in the position to send in a scout to see what is in the center hex Ansom's forces need to bring in enough folks to "punch through." the units that will be there will not have much move left and I assume that they will not have enough move to make it back and reinforce the column. Thus they will be stranded away from the column and the column will be weaker with out their help of the forest units. Ansom's plan is making the gamble on the assumption that the Dwagons are there and if they are, the effort is worth it. If not they are suckin.

We aren't absolutely certain that he couldn't send another of Vinny's bats in after his forest-capables croak the 3 Dwagons. Jillian is being held in reserve (and thus isn't being used on the 3 Dwagon hex) and the Archons probably are as well, since they are mentioned among the units that can make it to the center hex. Due to the way turns work, Ansom could command his forest-capable units to croak the 3 Dwagon hex, send in a doom bat, and then decide based on Vinny's intel whether or not to leave the column and go in himself, with Jillian, gwiffons, and Archons, and anything else with the necessary move joining him. He isn't really cautious enough that I'd expect him to take these measures, but it is a possibility.

[Twilight Jack]

I took the liberty of spoiler tagging your text, so that this won't be absurdly long.

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Parson will not attack Ansom head on, the dragons won't swoop in to attack; it would be like risking the entire outcome of the war on a coin toss when you know that the long war is more to your favor.

Jillian, five gwiffons, Charlie's Archons, Ansom... stack of 10 at least. We know Jillian is a beast capable of solo'ing a blue dwagon. Charlie's Archons are powerful (the price he asks is assumed to be high, and for just 3 units). Ansom is a charismatic leader whom we can assume has a very high leadership score and probably is no slouch in the combat department either. Three of the five gwiffons add to the stack bonus. And with the forest capable units taking the weak hex, Ansom's strike force will be fresh.

But Jillian, her gwiffons, and the Archons aren't going to be a part of this strike. Ansom wants to hold them in reserve. And Parson isn't going to fight to the bitter end here. Ansom is going to expend all his move fighting his way to the center of that dwagon formation, only to find the center hex empty. On Parson's turn, the 'A' dwagons return from just beyond the 'fog' line and hit Ansom's forces using the same selective targeting tactic that worked so well on the seige engines. He hits only what he can destroy, and keeps destroying things, switching out his warlord's mounts as various dwagons are injured, until he's done all the damage he can without risking more dwagons. I'm theorizing that Ansom won't be able to use the Arkenpliers to croak the warlords on Stanley's turn, because selective targeting is only allowed on your own turn. Once all the damage that can be safely done has been done, *all* the dwagons use their phenomenal move rate to bug out of range of most of Ansom's forces.

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It doesn't seem like a battle Ansom and crew can win-- this is true. But it also isn't one that Parson will win with negligible casualties (including any warlord he throws into battle; we have no reason to believe he knows about the Disruption effect the Arkenpliers have,) and there is still an army with nearly 60% of its original siege capacity bearing down on Gobwin Knob.

Yes, it is unlikely that Parson knows about the Arkenpliers' ability against the uncroaked. As I pointed out previously, however, selectively targeting individual units in a stack requires that it be your own turn. I think Parson will get lucky here, as Ansom won't be able to bring the Arkenpliers to bear until the assault is over.

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So, on the one hand he has a battle that he would probably win (counter-attack on Ansom) that would involve a very real threat of unit loss and does not necessarily ensure that the war is over (there are a lot of sides making up the Alliance, and so close to Gobwin Knob-- they might press on the attack.) On the other hand, he has a chance to deal crippling damage to the army (wipe out most of the remaining siege) while taking little or no losses, making the walls of Gobwin Knob all but impenetrable, and fooling Ansom once again.

Yes, but ignoring Ansom to wipe out the remaining siege puts all those dwagons in a vulnerable position next turn, as the false fort ploy won't work twice. If instead you cripple most of the only units capable of retaliating against the dwagons, you've ensured that you can continue to cherry pick siege units on later turns, without fear of an effective counterstrike. This is especially true if you capture or croak a few of Ansom's warlords while you're at it, a serious advantage for the shrewd selective targetter.

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The smart player, who wants to win (and moreover wants the assured victory,) will take the longer road rather than risk the shortcut. A long war favors Gobwin Knob, who produces units each turn. A long war provides Parson more opportunities to work his strategic magic with little risk. Lastly, Parson seems like the player to strive for total domination with minimal loss

Gobwin Knob isn't the only city in Erfworld, and most of those are controlled by Ansom's Coalition. They produce new units as well, and nearby cities can likely get those units to the front lines within one or two turns after they pop (well, except the slow units . . . like siege, for instance). A long war actually favors Ansom, since they have more cities producing more units. The only advantage that Gobwin Knob has in unit production is that the units are in position to help defend the moment they pop into existence. If Parson wants to win this war, his best bet is to deprive his opponents of those advantages which can most affect his own advantages (heavy fortifications and the most powerful flying units we've seen). Killing 40% of the siege units is a good start, but in order to safely eliminate the rest of the siege units, he now needs to cripple the command structure and as many powerful fliers as waltz into this trap.

[CNagy]

But Jillian, her gwiffons, and the Archons aren't going to be a part of this strike. Ansom wants to hold them in reserve. I'm theorizing that Ansom won't be able to use the Arkenpliers to croak the warlords on Stanley's turn, because selective targeting is only allowed on your own turn.

Assuming Jillian is being held in reserve, as in "not going to attack at all" instead of "attacking the center hex after the 3 Dwagons are taken care of," then the force Ansom is sending is going to be a considerable size that can make it into the center of the formation. With his leadership, that makes any strike force of sufficient size a powerful one.

But you are wrong in your beliefs on targeting. Jillian ended turn in the trees, but this shows her giving orders to the Orlies during Stanley's turn. We can thus surmise that a Commander unit can direct his stack in battle regardless of whose turn it is.

Yes, but ignoring Ansom to wipe out the remaining siege puts all those dwagons in a vulnerable position next turn, as the false fort ploy won't work twice.

The Dwagons have enough move to attack the column and get back to Gobwin Knob, where they are not vulnerable. That was the original plan, after all: to strike one turn, rest, and then surgical strike on the way home on the next turn. At no point are the Dwagons left hanging.

Gobwin Knob isn't the only city in Erfworld, and most of those are controlled by Ansom's Coalition. They produce new units as well, and nearby cities can likely get those units to the front lines within one or two turns after they pop (well, except the slow units . . . like siege, for instance). A long war actually favors Ansom, since they have more cities producing more units.

None of the cities are close enough; and what they can produce that will get there quickly enough is practically useless. Ansom has a huge amount of ground troops; he needs siege weapons to make them useful. Siege units would take five turns or more to get to Gobwin Knob, and a trickle of forces is easier to handle than a wave. Stanley has air superiority, so Ansom isn't winning by that route. The tunnels are a possibility, but if they were a great choice they wouldn't have been a feint in the original plan.

The long war only favors Ansom if he essentially halts the attack, rebuilds a new mass of siege units, and then resumes the attack while taking better care of the siege this time around. But that could take dozens of turns, and Ansom seemed pretty keen on finishing it in a few turns. Patience does not seem to be his strong point, and patience is the only thing that would turn a long engagement in his favor.

[Iraneseth]

I don't think Parson's going to attack Ansom after Ansom takes the bait. I think the dwagons should scatter, instead.

My reasoning: when Ansom attacks the "Dwagon Fort," he's going to be taking most (all?) of the units that are awesome at killing dwagons away from the rest of the army.

Sure, Parson has Ansom surrounded now. But why would he attack Ansom after Ansom takes the bait? If Parson tries to attack the anti-dwagon units, Parson's going to lose most of his most precious units. Gobwin Knob will still be surrounded and sieged and it'll fall to Ansom.

By keeping the middle hex empty, Parson's made all of Ansom's anti-dwagon units effectively waste their turn. That means he can tell his other dwagons to scatter -- wreak havoc on the other stacks that all of a sudden have found themselves without their dwagon defense, because all of the units that can attack dwagons are stuck out in the middle of nowhere.

Aside from Ansom, it seems as though much of the firepower in Ansom's attacking unit would be the forest-friendly units. Gobwin Knob didn't exactly look forested. In my experience, forest units don't perform well out in the open, and they'll likely be irrelevant to the siege proper. So why bother?

I mean, it would be exactly the wrong time to attack Ansom. If you want to kill warlords, you probably shouldn't attack them when they're in the middle of the biggest stack they had available. Who knows? Maybe Ansom will leave his command center open for attack, and Parson can capture Vinnie and/or the other warlords and/or the nifty table.

[SteveMB]

But you are wrong in your beliefs on targeting. Jillian ended turn in the trees, but this shows her giving orders to the Orlies during Stanley's turn. We can thus surmise that a Commander unit can direct his stack in battle regardless of whose turn it is.

Good catch -- that (and Jillian's own targeting of the blue dwagon) would seem to confirm that a warlord can do selective targeting when responding to attack during the other side's turn.

The long war only favors Ansom if he essentially halts the attack, rebuilds a new mass of siege units, and then resumes the attack while taking better care of the siege this time around. But that could take dozens of turns, and Ansom seemed pretty keen on finishing it in a few turns. Patience does not seem to be his strong point, and patience is the only thing that would turn a long engagement in his favor.

Ansom also refers to the strain of maintaining such a large alliance. It might not be possible to hold it together for long enough to rebuild heavy units (even setting aside the possibility of a "boop this, I quit" response from some coalition members when the expected straightforward push to victory runs into major problems).

[TheTurnipKing]

(Judging from the statement that only a few of the fastest gwiffons and the Archons can get to the battle site this turn, most of the flyers aren't going to be able to return and take up useful defensive positions before Stanley's next turn. They apparently got from the column to rendevous with Webinar's group in one turn, but that was after many of them moved from their normal postions to the front of the column on the preceding turn.)

That's if the units you want to protect with the fliers stay static - Presumably* you _could_ move the destination for the fliers closer by moving the column closer to the air support, presumably if you move them towards the air support as well, they'll be able to meet somewhere in the middle, making the most of BOTH units move, and thus denying the Dwagons another free swipe at the siege units.

*Assuming that the heavy siege units aren't forced to stick to the roads - I can't help but notice that most of Ansom's units are on the road, so at the very least that probably confers a movement bonus.

[Twilight Jack]

Spoiler

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Assuming Jillian is being held in reserve, as in "not going to attack at all" instead of "attacking the center hex after the 3 Dwagons are taken care of," then the force Ansom is sending is going to be a considerable size that can make it into the center of the formation. With his leadership, that makes any strike force of sufficient size a powerful one.

But you are wrong in your beliefs on targeting. Jillian ended turn in the trees, but this shows her giving orders to the Orlies during Stanley's turn. We can thus surmise that a Commander unit can direct his stack in battle regardless of whose turn it is.


The Dwagons have enough move to attack the column and get back to Gobwin Knob, where they are not vulnerable. That was the original plan, after all: to strike one turn, rest, and then surgical strike on the way home on the next turn. At no point are the Dwagons left hanging.



None of the cities are close enough; and what they can produce that will get there quickly enough is practically useless. Ansom has a huge amount of ground troops; he needs siege weapons to make them useful. Siege units would take five turns or more to get to Gobwin Knob, and a trickle of forces is easier to handle than a wave. Stanley has air superiority, so Ansom isn't winning by that route. The tunnels are a possibility, but if they were a great choice they wouldn't have been a feint in the original plan.

The long war only favors Ansom if he essentially halts the attack, rebuilds a new mass of siege units, and then resumes the attack while taking better care of the siege this time around. But that could take dozens of turns, and Ansom seemed pretty keen on finishing it in a few turns. Patience does not seem to be his strong point, and patience is the only thing that would turn a long engagement in his favor.

Regarding giving orders to Orlies, we now know that commanders can give orders off-turn. It doesn't follow that those orders can be carried out in a selective targeting fashion. Parson's klog seems rather specific that the selective targeting ability of stacks with warlords only works on one's own turn. That's where I'm getting that idea, since Parson's klog is the only place that tells you the rules of the game flatly, rather than through inferrence. EDIT: My bad, the only thing Parson's klog is clear on is that fliers can selectively engage non-fliers on their own turn if there is a commander present. I reread Jillian vs. the dwagons and it appears you're correct on that front. I suppose time will tell.

Attacking more siege units at this point strikes me poorly because it seems to abandon all 27 (24 by the time Parson's turn hits) 'B' dwagons without a warlord and in a pile of Ansom's strike forces. Units engaged in combat cannot withdraw from that combat without a warlord in their stack until all enemy units in contact are croaked (again, Parson's klog). That's one of the things I meant by vulnerable. The other thing is that moving back to the column takes more move than hitting Ansom, which leave less for retreat.

Personally, I think Ansom's choice to hold Jillian in reserve could be so that her forces can sweep in fresh once the three dwagon hex is croaked. Once that hex is discovered to be empty, the only thing to do with her is have her scout nearby for the wounded dwagons. At that point, realizing they've walked into a trap, they're not going to assume that Jillian will find those dwagons unprotected, and she doesn't have the forces to overcome too much additional resistance on her own.

Now of course, we don't know what kind of force Ansom is going to be attacking with, so a large part of our debate over which tactic is better is based upon an unknowable variable. How many flying units can be mustered and put into position in a single turn? Parson knows this, but we don't, so there's a limit to how much we can predict the specifics of his plan.

Even so, I think that Ansom's decision to attack now is largely based in the notion he'll be fighting only seriously wounded dwagons after he punches through those three healthy ones. Ansom, stranded from his column with his own units wounded on Parson's turn strikes me as the better target of opportunity, assuming that the force with which Ansom strikes is not so overwhelming as to assure heavy casualties should Parson attempt it. After all, it was the original plan when everyone on Stanley's side assumed that Ansom would fly in to recover Jillian himself. Now they've got a second opportunity to do what they really wanted to do in the first place. I just can't see Parson passing that up to croak more siege units, when the capture or croaking of a majority of Ansom's strike force ensures the ability to croak siege at leisure on successive turns.

[TheTurnipKing]

I just can't see Parson passing that up to croak more siege units, when the capture or croaking of a majority of Ansom's strike force ensures the ability to croak siege at leisure on successive turns.

Not to mention that capturing the opposing leader might very well be a victory condition in it's own right.

[Quarg]

Hmm, after reading all of the posts I think we can safely assume that Parson has something up his sleeve.

Three important parameters come into play:
1) Does Parson know about the ability of the Arkenpliers?

2) Does the 'stats' listing, as seen on Bogroll mean remaining hits or total hits. It is obviously not the standard 12/12 but just reported as 12.

3) Was Parson trying to lure the air units and not the ground units, or was he expecting a full on attack?

The second item is key, because if one only sees the total healty hit points rather than the units' "remaining" hitpoints, one can hide wounded units within healthy unit stacks without too much danger of the enemy catching on.

This would allow you to switch healthy dwagons for wounded dwagons without the enemy knowing about it. (A complete replacement would be risky though) The doughnut or fort could then be filled with 10-15 healthy dwagons (replacing about two to three from the five full strength B dwagon stacks) You then send the remaining wounded A dwagons to hide elsewhere as your strategic reserve for the next turn.

This plan would also allow you to semi-safely tuck away two or three undead warlords with the reserve to avoid the Arkenpliers as detailed in item 1.

Personally, Parson's plan with the Donut of Doom (if it is filled or not) completely depends on the second item, but where the hiding A dwagon group is would depend on item 3. If you assumed that Ansom would attack with Jillian and the Archons (against the weak spot) and then leave if they found the center empty, the A dwagons would be in a postion to strike at them on the next turn, while they have been weakened by fighting the three sacrifice dwagons. The obvious benifits, destroy the long range, strong enemy flying units and get on Stanley's good side for rubbing Charlie's Achron's out.

If you assumed a full on assult, leaving some filling with a second group of A dwagons to clean up those units that retreat after realizing that they are dealing with healthy B dwagons in the center would make sense.

I think Jillian and the Achrons are the intended target of Parson's plan.

[TheTurnipKing]

Donut of Doom - now available in Wounded Dwagon, Uncroaked Warlord and quantum probability flavoured fillings!

[galdon]

i see a lot of theories about the center hex being empty, but that just makes no sence to me.

ok, so ansem's forces come out, punch into the thing, they find it empty. what do they do? turn the heck around, get out of the circle, and the only good it would have done would be that the A dragons would not get killed off.

what i would have done, is hold a reasonable size of dragons back out of combat, and made the fort around them, possibly leaving one of the three warlords with them after the main attacks to give them a leadership bonus.

so, ansem punches through right, walks on into the center hex, and gets bombarded by many powerful and full health dragons instead of the weak and dying dragons they'd hoped for.

[Twilight Jack]

i see a lot of theories about the center hex being empty, but that just makes no sence to me.

ok, so ansem's forces come out, punch into the thing, they find it empty. what do they do? turn the heck around, get out of the circle, and the only good it would have done would be that the A dragons would not get killed off.

what i would have done, is hold a reasonable size of dragons back out of combat, and made the fort around them, possibly leaving one of the three warlords with them after the main attacks to give them a leadership bonus.

so, ansem punches through right, walks on into the center hex, and gets bombarded by many powerful and full health dragons instead of the weak and dying dragons they'd hoped for.

What they do when they find it empty is turn around, get one or two hexes worth of move before their turn is over, and find themselves wounded and seperated from their column when Parson's turn comes again. Since all of Parson's dwagons heal completely at the beginning of his turn, he now has Ansom right where he wants him. The only question remaining is how much of a wildcard the Arkenpliers will prove to be.

[galdon]

if three dwagons can wound them enough to matter, then a bunch of dwagons in the center would do even more damage. if they had to retreat from the battle they'd have even less move since they used some in combat, assuming combat takes up move.

>.> that and the way parson looked in that last panel, he definatelly has a trap that he's ready to watch unfold, so ansem's group will get blasted during thier turn.

[Quaalsten]

i think it is good to remember that Stanley has only onereal war objective: the capture of the Arkenpliers. Heres how I would approach it if I was his Chief Warlord:

Ansom will likely enter the centre hex, ready to use the ArkenPliers to kill the uncroaked warlords -- remember how intense he was about them being uncroaked?

On the next turn, Stanley will arrive with his bonded Arkentool, for some commander-on-commander action. He will selectively target Ansom's stack (max five) with his more powerful unwounded stack of dwagons, and try to capture Ansom. When the mission is accomplished, he will withdraw. The dwagons and uncroaked warlords will then finish their mission -- destroy the last of the siege equipment, and withdraw to Gobwin Knob.

Pax,

john HOB

[Twilight Jack]

if three dwagons can wound them enough to matter, then a bunch of dwagons in the center would do even more damage. if they had to retreat from the battle they'd have even less move since they used some in combat, assuming combat takes up move.

>.> that and the way parson looked in that last panel, he definatelly has a trap that he's ready to watch unfold, so ansem's group will get blasted during thier turn.

Well, those three dwagons have full hits (probably >12, since dwagons are tougher than Bogroll), so they're going to take longer to go down, and hence toss out more damage, then any one of the two dozen presumed to be in the middle, all of whom are down to just a few hits apiece.

[Quaalsten]

And oh, yeah: this is a truly awesome strip!