Star Wars - What would happen when Dark Force users were captured by the Jedi?

[Traab]

Of course, the jedi don't do "detect evil" in that way. If they did they'd just sweep every politician they met and then have gotten Palpatine on the spot. The force does not "ping". Or rather, getting the force to do that requires a lot of specific training that jedi don't usually go in for.

Palpatine had methods for blocking the jedi from detecting him. It was the equivalent of belkar and his lead sheet. Aaaand now im hearing palpatine scream out "Stop repressing my culture you ethnocentric bastard!" (Im imagining him saying that to yoda)

[hamishspence]

He says something very similar to Mace, in the RoTS novelization:

MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.

PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?

MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!

PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact— the last time I read the Constitution, anyway—we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?

MACE WINDU: We're not here to argue with you.

PALPATINE: No, you're here to imprison me without trial. Without even the pretense of legality. So this is the plan, at last: the Jedi are taking over the Republic.

MACE WINDU: Come with us. Now.

PALPATINE: I shall do no such thing. If you intend to murder me, you can do so right here.

[Jayngfet]

You know that kind of illustrates the enormous gap the prequels had with the surrounding EU.

I mean being accused of a Sith Lord, not a Tund Sorcerer or a Nightsister or what have you, is a big deal. I mean the sith basically almost destroyed the galaxy multiple times, even mentioned in the films. But that wasn't nearly as huge a detail in the films as it was extrapolated to be. Anyone who had even the most basic history background would probably have their eyes bugged out if told there was a sith lord hanging around.

[Hopeless]

Excuse me Chancellor we've had a report that you've been accused of being behind the Separatist Alliance and effectively causing bloodshed and war across the entire republic as part of your affiliation with a suspected Terrorist organisation.

Really Master Windu and you believe these charges?

Frankly if I did we would evacuate this building leaving you alone and demolish it making sure you cannot escape, but since we aren't anything like the Sith you apparently revere we're going to escort you out of the building and into the care of Jedi Guards to insure you're treated properly according to the laws of the Republic.

I really have more important things to do today Master Windu.

I'm sure but for now we're going to hold you incommunicado until we've checked the validity of the charges but in the meantime my friend Nate Ford from Leverage Consulting will be making sure your absence won't be noted...

Nate who (WHACK!) Palpatine topples over as he had no clue Parker was standing behind him.

SO this is the future? Parker mutters as Windu shakes his head.

Yes Parker just be careful this guy is almost as bad as the politicians in our time. Hardison utters to her over the coms as he watches Elliot finish knocking out the last of Palpatine's Imperial Guard discarding the pike almost ruefully.

They looked tougher on the screen he mutters to himself as he shakes his head.

SORRY COULDN'T RESIST!!!

[hamishspence]

You know that kind of illustrates the enormous gap the prequels had with the surrounding EU.

Episode VII "I thought he (Luke Skywalker) was a myth"


Maybe, over the millennia, the existence of Sith Lords has become "mythical" in the eyes of the public, in the same way.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah I may be wrong but I am pretty sure that in the film that they were arresting him for treason. And if not they should have been, since they knew the Sith Lord was behind the Separatists.

After he busted out the Force Lightning and slew Mace's backup, it then became a matter of Jedi vs. Sith. But I might be putting on a more charitable interpretation of the film then it deserves. It would be an unusual case of Stover's novelization detracting from the film instead of improving it.

[Z3ro]

Yeah I may be wrong but I am pretty sure that in the film that they were arresting him for treason. And if not they should have been, since they knew the Sith Lord was behind the Separatists.

After he busted out the Force Lightning and slew Mace's backup, it then became a matter of Jedi vs. Sith. But I might be putting on a more charitable interpretation of the film then it deserves. It would be an unusual case of Stover's novelization detracting from the film instead of improving it.

So, just to be sure, I re-watched that scene, and a couple of things jump out. First, you can see the look in Mace Windu's eyes (being played by Sam Jackson doesn't help here), but he's clearly there to do some murdering. It's not even a question. But more importantly, they arrive and say that, on behalf of the galactic senate, Palpatine is under arrest. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the senate has given no such authorization.

As they're telling him he's under arrest (without giving a list of charges, such as treason; they just say he's under arrest), they pull out their lightsabers, very threatening. As an weapon owner knows, you don't point your gun at someone unless you intend to shoot; what message was Palpatine supposed to take from that? Again, without some significant in movie explanation, you can't read that scene as anything but a religious coup.

[Red Fel]

So, just to be sure, I re-watched that scene, and a couple of things jump out. First, you can see the look in Mace Windu's eyes (being played by Sam Jackson doesn't help here), but he's clearly there to do some murdering. It's not even a question. But more importantly, they arrive and say that, on behalf of the galactic senate, Palpatine is under arrest. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the senate has given no such authorization.

As they're telling him he's under arrest (without giving a list of charges, such as treason; they just say he's under arrest), they pull out their lightsabers, very threatening. As an weapon owner knows, you don't point your gun at someone unless you intend to shoot; what message was Palpatine supposed to take from that? Again, without some significant in movie explanation, you can't read that scene as anything but a religious coup.

This really shouldn't be news. We already know two things about the alignment of the typical Jedi.

1. Jedi are not Good. Some are, but there is no requirement "must be Good." Many are Neutral. A few lean dangerously Evil, without quite going over there. (Looking at you, Master Windu.) So confronting Palpatine with killing intent isn't exactly out of character for a non-Good group.

2. Jedi are Lawful, but it's their law. Jedi do not respect the laws or rights of individual planets or systems. Can, but don't have to. The Jedi, as depicted in the prequel trilogy, are an independent peacekeeping force. In other words, when they decide that the Trade Federation is oppressing the Naboo, they can get involved in the war and take whatever side they want. In this case, although they ostensibly pay homage to the Senate, they are their own law and their own law enforcement; see Sith, smite same. So again, it's no surprise that they came in there, without Senate approval, to arrest-slash-murder Palpatine's face.

If memory serves, the Jedi were once a militaristic order, and that they later came to serve the Old Republic. Before that, though, they were their own law and authority. You don't have that kind of history - and teach that kind of history to each generation - without a certain degree of "We were once the law, and we could be again."

Also: How exactly could they arrest Palpatine on behalf of the Senate, when Palpatine - as Chancellor - is the Senate? He's the voice of the Senate. It would seem that some sort of vote is needed - perhaps a vote of No Confidence, like what got him the job in the first place, followed by the installation of a new Chancellor, before the Senate could, as a whole, authorize the arrest?

Fricking Jedi, man. This is why force users go rogue. Jedi are fricking crazy.

[hamishspence]

TThe Jedi, as depicted in the prequel trilogy, are an independent peacekeeping force. In other words, when they decide that the Trade Federation is oppressing the Naboo, they can get involved in the war and take whatever side they want.

That wasn't the impression I got. It was pretty clear that all Qui-Gon could do was protect Amidala (and investigate the involvement of the Sith with the Trade Federation):



MACE WINDU : Protect the Queen, but do not intercede if it comes to war until we have the Senate's approval.

[Red Fel]

That wasn't the impression I got. It was pretty clear that all Qui-Gon could do was protect Amidala (and investigate the involvement of the Sith with the Trade Federation):



MACE WINDU : Protect the Queen, but do not intercede if it comes to war until we have the Senate's approval.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they have to obey the Senate. It means that they choose to obey the Senate, which makes sense when you realize that (1) they've answered to the Senate and its predecessor for a long time, and (2) the Senate is basically the power in the galaxy.

I mean, S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't technically an American organization - it's ostensibly independent - but it answers to the President of the USA out of convenience. I see the Jedi the same way, and take as evidence their independent investigations and operations, particularly the summary arrest-slash-attempted-execution of Palpatine. I can't see anyone in the admittedly corrupt Senate authorizing the Jedi to go after a sitting senator, let alone the Chancellor; it sets a precedent that they might be next. Instead, I see this as independent Jedi action, which tells me that the Jedi obedience to the Senate was voluntary, not mandatory.

[JCarter426]

Are you talking about Revan?

He wasnt brainwashed. He suffered massive brain trauma following a backstabbing assassination attempt, and the Jedi merely tried to save his life.

They did more than save his or her life. They programmed Revan with a new identity, new name, new history. Then they sent the new Revan on a mission that was counter to everything the old Revan would've done. Yes, the old Revan would've done evil things, but in this case Revan isn't the one who's violating anybody's rights. When you give someone artificial memories and then send them off to do your bidding, that's brainwashing.

Granted, there is a moral dilemma here. Do you tell this person everything about their past, or do you let them remember on their own or start a new life?

What you don't do, though, is try to make them into a new person.

Thr Exile's were self inflicted at Malachor V

I don't think that's the incident in question here. Ten years after that, after the Exile had (sort of) recovered his or her connection to the Force, the Jedi actually try to sever it.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they have to obey the Senate. It means that they choose to obey the Senate, which makes sense when you realize that (1) they've answered to the Senate and its predecessor for a long time, and (2) the Senate is basically the power in the galaxy.

You beat me to that. Now I don't have to defend the prequels' unclear politics.

For all we know they're the official state religion and they can go all Jedi Inquisition on whomever. But even if they actually could, I don't think they usually have any reason to.

Judging by both the films and the EU, the Jedi seem to believe that the only way to learn the Force properly is to be a Jedi. The Jedi aren't in the habit of policing or indoctrinating all the fringe Force traditions, even if they use the dark side, because they're not really a threat to the Jedi. They're not as competent as Jedi because they're not Jedi. It's a bit arrogant, but it's usually true. The vast majority of the galaxy cannot use the Force, and many don't even believe in it. Force users outside of the Jedi order typically don't understand their powers, viewing the Force superstitiously. The Jedi have training based on thousands of years of research and that giant library that only showed up for one scene. They're the experts here.

So if they come across someone who's at risk of falling to the dark side, or too old to be trained properly or whatever, it's enough to leave them alone. Unless someone comes along to actually teach them how to be evil, they're harmless. You can't learn the Force without someone telling you how you must unlearn what you have learned and so on. So unless they're already a danger to themselves or others, usually the solution is to not teach them anything more than they already know.

The Sith are the only exception, and largely because they used to be Jedi and therefore are a danger. And how Jedi deal with Sith is... usually left unstated out of convenience for the plot! Because obviously the Jedi are the good guys and we don't want to ask those questions.

[Cikomyr]

They did more than save his or her life. They programmed Revan with a new identity, new name, new history. Then they sent the new Revan on a mission that was counter to everything the old Revan would've done. Yes, the old Revan would've done evil things, but in this case Revan isn't the one who's violating anybody's rights. When you give someone artificial memories and then send them off to do your bidding, that's brainwashing.

Granted, there is a moral dilemma here. Do you tell this person everything about their past, or do you let them remember on their own or start a new life?

What you don't do, though, is try to make them into a new person.

Except its not the way it happened. The attack left Revan brain-crippled, the Jedi did everything they could to save his life, and allowed a new personality to grow out of what was remaining. They did not "brainwash" anyone; otherwise they could just have programmed him in being The Perfect Jedi (tm), and we would never have the option of joining the Dark Side.

The Jedi captured Revan's body while his mind was almost effectively gone, and worked hard to put the pieces back together.

They feared the Dark Lord might return, because they allowed that very possibility to happen.

I don't think that's the incident in question here. Ten years after that, after the Exile had (sort of) recovered his or her connection to the Force, the Jedi actually try to sever it.

But it wasnt a simple case of "he's a Sith, we have to sever his connection". It was a case of " he is a living Wound of the Force, and drains the life power of everyone around him".

Basically akin to cutting off someone's vocal chords because their voice cause cancer to people around them.

[hamishspence]

Except its not the way it happened. The attack left Revan brain-crippled, the Jedi did everything they could to save his life, and allowed a new personality to grow out of what was remaining. They did not "brainwash" anyone; otherwise they could just have programmed him in being The Perfect Jedi (tm), and we would never have the option of joining the Dark Side.

The Jedi captured Revan's body while his mind was almost effectively gone, and worked hard to put the pieces back together.

The Wookieepedia description is a bit different:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bastila_Shan

Revan was left clinging to life. Shan, remembering that a Jedi seeks to preserve all life, was able to keep him alive and preserve his mind using the Force. This act resulted in a powerful Force bond between them.[5]

Shan then brought Revan to the Jedi Council. The Council then decided that they would use the Force to temporarily wipe his memory, even though this was considered an immoral use of the Force.[5] Revan was then reprogrammed with a new identity, one that was loyal to the Republic. They hoped that, with time, his submerged memories would cast some light on the many mysteries surrounding him. They were especially interested in finding the Star Forge and stopping the legions of Sith invaders that were attacking Republic affiliated planets.[3][7]

[JCarter426]

Except its not the way it happened. The attack left Revan brain-crippled, the Jedi did everything they could to save his life, and allowed a new personality to grow out of what was remaining. They did not "brainwash" anyone; otherwise they could just have programmed him in being The Perfect Jedi (tm), and we would never have the option of joining the Dark Side.

It's not brainwashing because it didn't work?

People who have been brainwashed still have free will.

The Jedi captured Revan's body while his mind was almost effectively gone, and worked hard to put the pieces back together.

They make no effort to restore Revan's memories, and they give Revan fake memories to convince Revan he or she was an entirely different person, one that serves the Jedi Council. Then when the real memories start to come back, they lie about the source of the memories in an attempt to preserve the whole charade.

I'm not saying they were under any obligation to heal Revan at all, but they didn't leave it at that. They chose to change Revan's and then lie about Revan's identity. They tried to change who someone was, against that person's will.

But it wasnt a simple case of "he's a Sith, we have to sever his connection". It was a case of " he is a living Wound of the Force, and drains the life power of everyone around him".

Basically akin to cutting off someone's vocal chords because their voice cause cancer to people around them.

Yeah, it's like that, except there wasn't actually any cancer. They were just afraid of cancer. In this scenario, the Exile has the potential to kill people through the Force, but chooses not to. This is someone who has resisted falling to the dark side, despite how powerful they could become in doing so. And they decide to strip the Exile of the Force because they're afraid of some vague potential threat the Exile could maybe pose to them at some point. If you can justify punishing someone for that, you can justify robbing anyone of the Force... which is actually what they're afraid of, they're afraid because the Exile could strip them of the Force, so they're flaming hypocrites.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The KOTOR era Jedi are pretty much awful. In KOTOR I yeah ok, war is war and the fate of the galaxy is at stake. Moral sacrifice is better than a galaxy overrun by Dark Side patsies (especially psychopaths like Malak). In KOTOR II though, they're just scared, petty jerks concerned only with self-preservation. By the time you get to the big reveal on Dantooine, the Sith have already won, because eveything left of the Jedi save for the Exile and her crew have been consumed by fear.

[hamishspence]

The KOTOR era Jedi are pretty much awful. In KOTOR I yeah ok, war is war and the fate of the galaxy is at stake. Moral sacrifice is better than a galaxy overrun by Dark Side patsies (especially psychopaths like Malak).

After Naga Sadow's war against the Republic fails - the Republic pretty much commits genocide against his Empire - with minimal outcry from the Jedi if any.

Pre-Sith, the Pius Dea era had anti-alien crusades, with the Jedi pretty much leaving them to it for centuries, before finally deciding to step in about 1000 years after they started:


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pius_Dea



And their approach to testing Padawans for Knighthood was pretty hideous as well, back then:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Burning

[Nerd-o-rama]

Definitely a good indication that, especially when we're talking Legends, Era and historical context matter. I'd also like to point out that the Jedi ran into a lot of long-term trouble by trying to be non-interventionist in Republic politics and military actions. That's part of why in the Great Galactic Wars and the Clone Wars they are a lot more willing to integrate themselves with the Republic military in an official capacity.

[Red Fel]

Definitely a good indication that, especially when we're talking Legends, Era and historical context matter. I'd also like to point out that the Jedi ran into a lot of long-term trouble by trying to be non-interventionist in Republic politics and military actions. That's part of why in the Great Galactic Wars and the Clone Wars they are a lot more willing to integrate themselves with the Republic military in an official capacity.

And I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that, by integrating with the Republic military and becoming military heroes, they would gain society's praises and political power. You know, exactly like Palpatine was doing.

I'm sure the thought never crossed their minds.

[Jayngfet]

And I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that, by integrating with the Republic military and becoming military heroes, they would gain society's praises and political power. You know, exactly like Palpatine was doing.

I'm sure the thought never crossed their minds.

The jedi are non-interventionist far more than the opposite. That was the entire point of the jedi civil war and like eight other conflicts.

[Nerd-o-rama]

And I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that, by integrating with the Republic military and becoming military heroes, they would gain society's praises and political power. You know, exactly like Palpatine was doing.

I'm sure the thought never crossed their minds.

Probably not, no. What do we ever see Jedi do with their political influence aside from enjoy a posh temple and get society behind their otherwise-mildly-worrying recruiting policies? (I think society would be behind their burn-the-Sith policies anyway given the sheer number of very public people calling themselves Sith who decide to try to conquer the galaxy). All the Jedi are trying to do is both propagate and practice their philosophy, and they do both by aiding the Republic in ways that suit them, mostly policing other Force Users and bringing some supernatural muscle and reputation as insightful individuals to the disputes they pick a side on.

[Z3ro]

otherwise-mildly-worrying recruiting policies

That has to be the mildest euphemism for using child-soldiers I think I've ever seen.

[Cikomyr]

A big question, i believe, is: do you believe an untrained Force Sensitive can become a danger to himself and those around him without formal training?

Or perhaps is the danger coming mainly from DFU organisation that might recruit such potential?

[Blackhawk748]

A big question, i believe, is: do you believe an untrained Force Sensitive can become a danger to himself and those around him without formal training?

Or perhaps is the danger coming mainly from DFU organisation that might recruit such potential?

Oh they totally can. To use a Legends example, Desann had virtually no training (he spent a bit of time at Lukes Jedi Praxeum, but it wasnt long) but wound up becoming a very powerful Darkside user. Multiple Dathomiri witches can attest to self training as well.

However, it is definitely not common for this to happen.

[Jayngfet]

That has to be the mildest euphemism for using child-soldiers I think I've ever seen.

Jedi aren't soldiers.

Remember the clone wars didn't start at an arbitrary date. The trade federation had ten years of jedi waffling to build resoucres, and that was after it was revealed they were working with Sith Lords and trying to attack planets in ways that were already grounds for war.

If the jedi were soldiers they'd have gone after the federation immediatley and probably avoided the whole headache. But they didn't, because jedi don't resort to violence unless forced.

3/4ths of the prequel trilogy timeline is just the jedi faffing around and looking for excuses not to fight. We just focus on the last few years when they basically run out of excuses and get thrown in with zero preperation.

Oh they totally can. To use a Legends example, Desann had virtually no training (he spent a bit of time at Lukes Jedi Praxeum, but it wasnt long) but wound up becoming a very powerful Darkside user. Multiple Dathomiri witches can attest to self training as well.

However, it is definitely not common for this to happen.

People underestimate how much of being a jedi isn't learning to slice people with a lightsaber. Half the reason Vader could afford to train like fifty million secret apprentices is if you focus on only the fighting bits you can slim the training down to like, under a year. Lumiya and Flint were able to go pound for pound with skywalker with only bare bones force training because Vader did that whole quick and easy dark side thing and conveniently forgot to teach them about things like good judgement or self control.

The exact same thing can be said for the Dathomiri Witches. They had a small amount of bare bones force training that propagated and got corrupted, but was still fundamentally just jedi basics in origin. Though it's kind of ambiguous at this point how much of that is the one jedi descendant, how much is Dathomir apparently being a super important force planet long before that, and how much is just those specific people being prodigies, since force prodigies are shown learning at rates many times what the average is(Luke's Praxaeum had like three people who were already trained elsewhere, but they were routinely outclassed by dudes who happened to be stronger in the force but have no training).

[Nerd-o-rama]

That has to be the mildest euphemism for using child-soldiers I think I've ever seen.

Jedi are not soldiers.

Jedi are not soldiers.

Jedi are not soldiers.

For the Force's sake, Jedi are not soldiers.

Jedi are contemplative monks whose mastery of themselves and the universe around them makes them exceptionally good warriors if they are pressed into such a situation, because Star Wars is a fictional universe like the ones where a Shaolin Monk can punch his way through the entire Red Army, and therefore when they get pressed into becoming soldiers, most of the ones we see are quite effective. They're still, in general, **** soldiers because they are not trained to fight as part of a military unit and never have been. Being able to take on a platoon of lame-ass combat droids with telekinesis and overspecced laser sword is a far cry from being a soldier, as anyone who's ever been in the military will be happy to tell you. At best, the Republic brings them in as field commanders or silver bullets outside the regular command structure, or they just kind of show up on their own to have lightsaber duels with whatever Sith is inevitably behind the latest conflict (it's not a conspiracy theory if it's accurate).

I mean, Jedi don't wander the galaxy abducting infants and toddlers into an army of Force Users that imposes its will on the galaxy. What they do is they go and say to parents "your child has a gift, and we're the people who know how to teach people to control that gift. We hold an honored place in the galaxy and provide for all of our members' needs for the rest of their lives. They will be taught how to use their power for the good of others and themselves, and how not to be warped by its psychic effects. They may potentially see danger and combat starting in their adolescence, but only for the sake of the greater galaxy, and they will be capable of protecting themselves (but not, again, of serving in an army because the Jedi are not a ****ing military organization in any way)."

[Z3ro]

Jedi aren't soldiers.

Jedi are not soldiers.

They have ranks!

At best, the Republic brings them in as field commanders or silver bullets outside the regular command structure, or they just kind of show up on their own to have lightsaber duels with whatever Sith is inevitably behind the latest conflict (it's not a conspiracy theory if it's accurate).

Not true; watch the Clone Wars cartoon. The Jedi are a regular part of both the command structure and field missions. There's nothing else they can be called except soldiers.

I mean, Jedi don't wander the galaxy abducting infants and toddlers into an army of Force Users that imposes its will on the galaxy. What they do is they go and say to parents "your child has a gift, and we're the people who know how to teach people to control that gift. We hold an honored place in the galaxy and provide for all of our members' needs for the rest of their lives. They will be taught how to use their power for the good of others and themselves, and how not to be warped by its psychic effects. They may potentially see danger and combat starting in their adolescence, but only for the sake of the greater galaxy, and they will be capable of protecting themselves (but not, again, of serving in an army because the Jedi are not a ****ing military organization in any way)."

We don't actually know, canonically, how the Jedi recruit their children. But we do know they put weapons in their hands at a very early age and teach them very lethal skills.

[Jayngfet]

They have ranks!

They clearly don't act as normal generals and the actual role of officer and the duties therein is usually left to non-clone non-jedi personnel(or specially selected clone officers). Which is how people like Tarkin were able to fight in the clone wars. When pressed they can fight and fly in missions but the actual role of jedi general has no duties that aren't normally overseen by other personnel anyway. Which translated to the empire as Vader doesn't bother with the actual details of command and has an admiral and other's handle that for him.

We don't actually know, canonically, how the Jedi recruit their children. But we do know they put weapons in their hands at a very early age and teach them very lethal skills.

They're shown how to use a lightsaber to defend themselves, not kill people. Lightsabers that aren't even able to be set to lethal power until they're in their teens and can build one themselves.

Even then the point of the lightsaber is not to be a weapon. It's not just a plasma sword. It's a mystic item with a crystal tied by the force to the jedi's own spirit. That's why there's so much ritual and circumstance around the thing. Even in NuCanon they're something unique and special, since it's confirmed Luke can't just grab a non-skywalker lightsaber and be just as good with it.

[Emperordaniel]

They have ranks!

So do non-military orders.

Not true; watch the Clone Wars cartoon. The Jedi are a regular part of both the command structure and field missions. There's nothing else they can be called except soldiers.

Spoiler: Season 5 finale

Show

The Jedi Council had to have Ahsoka Tano expelled from the Jedi Order before she could be tried in a military court for the deaths of the non-Jedi personnel in the Temple bombing, which is a point against the "Jedi are military" argument. Some sort of semi-independent paramilitary special forces, maybe.

We don't actually know, canonically, how the Jedi recruit their children. But we do know they put weapons in their hands at a very early age and teach them very lethal skills.

IIRC, the "Children of the Force" Clone Wars arc implied that it's a voluntary choice on behalf of the parent(s), and that the children aren't recruited until they can at least walk and talk properly - plus as has been pointed out, the lightsabers given to the Jedi younglings aren't usable weapons so much as they are glowing nerf swords.

[JCarter426]

Pre-Sith, the Pius Dea era had anti-alien crusades, with the Jedi pretty much leaving them to it for centuries, before finally deciding to step in about 1000 years after they started

There were also some Jedi who stayed with the Republic and its anti-alien crusaders. I've wanted to see a story set in this era for a while for this reason. There are no Sith, instead there are four or five factions with misguided Jedi on all sides.

A big question, i believe, is: do you believe an untrained Force Sensitive can become a danger to himself and those around him without formal training?

The Jedi certainly don't believe so, usually. Also, there's an issue of scale. One dark sider terrorizing a village is only a threat to that village. Jedi are usually busy stopping people from terrorizing star systems. Force users outside the Jedi Order come from places where there aren't star systems to terrorize. Force traditions like the Nightsisters, Sorcerers of Tund, and so on only spring up because they're isolated from the Republic, outside civilization. Anyone born with Force potential within civilization is inevitably discovered and trained by the Jedi. Everything outside of civilization is typically too primitive or unorganized to be a threat to civilization. It's not a perfect situation, but it's easy to understand why it turned out that way.

To use a Legends example, Desann had virtually no training (he spent a bit of time at Lukes Jedi Praxeum, but it wasnt long) but wound up becoming a very powerful Darkside user.

He did receive some Jedi training, though. More than Luke did before meeting Yoda, certainly. If I recall correctly, he was there past the lightsaber construction class. He also knew about Massassi temples, so it's possible he had contact with the ancient Sith or found a holocron or something, the usual story. And I know this wasn't mentioned in the original story, but he was also trained by the Star Wars Cthulhu.

In that way Dessan is a pretty typical case. Every rogue Jedi will have an assortment of substitute teachers. And it's easier for the Jedi to blame forbidden knowledge, a ghost, Cthulhu, etc.

[Brother Oni]

Not true; watch the Clone Wars cartoon. The Jedi are a regular part of both the command structure and field missions. There's nothing else they can be called except soldiers.

Tier 1 special forces (SAS, Delta, etc) are both part of the command structure and field missions on military deployments. They certainly don't get involved in the normal commanding of regular army units (unless they're the officer on the ground) and mostly go about doing their own thing, much like the Jedi. While this sounds like an endorsement of them being soldiers, such special forces are generally independent units on deployments and not heavily integrated into the normal military.

As mentioned earlier, Jedi help out with the normal command structure as they're very good advisors - it's hard to argue with someone who has limited precognition and/or can feel if an assault is about to go completely pearshaped.


Looking at the question in a different way, how effective is the Jedi Order as a military organisation?

From a military structure point of view, the internal Jedi hierarchy is completely unsuited for a modern military with only 3 ranks (Padawan, Knight and Master) and no granularity inside them (what's the difference in rank between a youngling Padawan and Obi-Wan during The Phantom Menance, despite their obvious differences in abilities).
The only way a Master knows about the capabilities of another Master's Padawan is if they know the Padawan personally, which only really works in a comparatively small peace-time organisation. Once the Order starts taking casualties in conflicts, this information will become obsolete rapidly.

Unless they actively choose to specialise (Archive keeper, academy teacher, etc) or are chosen/elected for a leadership role (Academy council or the Jedi Council itself), they're all pretty much generalists, with no real attempt to ensure that all roles are filled leaving massive gaps in their capabilities (how are Jedi logistics and maintenance of their vehicles handled? Intelligence officers? Recruitment is random at best.).
As an example, during Attack of the Clones, Obi-Wan goes off to investigate the conspiracy by himself - in military terms, you don't want the guy who knows the most about an intelligence operation to be exposed to any sort of danger, you keep him tucked away nice and safe until he's ready to be wheeled out to do his thing.

With their spotty recruitment and long training times, once they start taking casualties they'd rapidly fall apart, which would inevitably happen if they were thrown in with the rest of the clone troopers. They don't have mass screening of populations for suitable candidates, it's more random chance of parents bringing their children to academies or
a Knight/Master stumbling on a Force sensitive child. (Edit: Depending on period, as pointed out by HamishSpence.)

As far as I know, the actual training of Padawans has not been fully disclosed, but what actual leadership and tactical training do they receive? It's hard to imagine a Padawan receiving formal training at an academy on room breaching or covert insertions, let alone the harder job of leading men to do such tasks. Once they leave the academy under a Master, they very much seem to learn on the job which isn't great for ensuring quality of training and integration with larger units.

As Emperordaniel said, they could be best seen as an informal paramilitary organisation, a force multiplier making regular troops better. They don't have to be soldiers to do that.