The LA-assignment thread

[Troacctid]

I think giant eagles are good enough for +1 LA. Those ability scores are no joke, and the HD are actually quite good. The fast fly speed, large size, and evasion are all strong as well, and I think with no LA, you're definitely outperforming class levels.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Agreed on the Giant Eagle deserving a +1.

[Efrate]

I think +1 for eagles is relevant, because off the top of my head they out damage a likewise leveled barbarian, have the same amount of feats, a bit less HP, fewer skills, and evasion. Magical beast HD are pretty nice, and having a similar/superior damage output as well as flight I think warrants the LA. Evasion vs. uncanny dodge is almost a wash, put with their senses and natural flight I do not think being flat footed is a big deal. Even if you get one attack with your weapon over a pouncing WF barbarian's 2, your much higher strength, dex, mobility and your buff to your bad save with the wis bonus I think is relevant.

[Inevitability]

LA changed to +1.

[Inevitability]

Eladrin, Bralani

Bralani are the dark offspring of an air elemental and an angel never used in any game a pain to give a LA the weakest of the core Eladrin.

Let's take a look at the chassis. Six outsider RHD, medium size, the [Chaotic] and [Good] subtypes, a good land speed, a great fly speed (though not in humanoid form), some natural armor, pretty good physical stats... Not bad at all.

Bralani get a fair number of SLA's, though their usefulness will vary. They can also turn into a whirlwind, which is pretty much only useful for flying (Whirlwind Blast is bad even for blasting). They also have permanent Tongues, DR that's reasonably hard to overcome, SR, and some odd immunities and resistances.

I'm comfortable with giving those +2 LA, as is expectable of outsiders. All criticism or agreement should of course be shared.

[Hurnn]

La 2 seams perfectly reasonable.

[Thurbane]

I concur - at 6 RHD, LA +2 seems reasonable for the special abilities and stat mods.

[Inevitability]

Ghaele

I'm getting Planetar flashbacks from this. Who at WotC decided to create not one, but multiple under CR'ed cleric-casting celestials?

Anyway: Ghaeles have 10 RHD. Main problem: they also have 14th-level cleric casting. On top of that, the eladrin also get bonuses to all stats (ranging from 25 strength to 12 dexterity), a sizable natural armor bonus, a high land speed, a ton of SLA's, DR, energy resistances/immunities, darkvision, SR, Protective Aura and Tongues.

Furthermore, they also have a gaze that either causes instant death or Fear (though the fact that allies will probably be more vulnerable to it than foes makes it not that great).

Ghaeles, like Bralani, have an alternate form: theirs is a globe of light. It's mostly underwhelming: losing spellcasting for flight, incorporeality and a couple of natural attacks isn't worth it most of the time. Of course, incorporeality can solo monsters even at higher levels, so I wouldn't write it off entirely.

The SLA's I won't individually review, but they're generally useful.

So what LA to give here? +4 seems like a minimum, but even then I'm having trouble seeing people pick cleric over this. Full casters being stronger than other classes, I think a LA of +6 fits best here.

Now to steel myself for the flood of disagreement...

[Flickerdart]

If the Ghaele had 14 HD and cast as a 14th level Cleric, I'd be happy with ECL 16. But 10 HD and ECL 16 is dicey - the Ghaele has lower HP, weaker skills, fewer feats than a cleric. At ECL16 any caster can get physical ability score bonuses if they try, so these goodies aren't as shiny as they would normally be. LA0 clerics can also enjoy prestige class bonuses - you're not really looking at Ghaele 16 vs Cleric 16, but Ghaele 16 vs Cleric 5/cool stuff 11.

Ultimately, I think a case could be made for LA+5.

[Troacctid]

I'd never play a Cleric 14 over a +4 LA Ghaele.

Honestly, I bet you could even go to +7. Those spell-likes are really good, and the incorporeal form is practically unkillable. Personally, I like it at —.

[Daedroth]

I'm getting Planetar flashbacks from this. Who at WotC decided to create not one, but multiple under CR'ed cleric-casting celestials?

Anyway: Ghaeles have 10 RHD. Main problem: they also have 14th-level cleric casting. On top of that, the eladrin also get bonuses to all stats (ranging from 25 strength to 12 dexterity), a sizable natural armor bonus, a high land speed, a ton of SLA's, DR, energy resistances/immunities, darkvision, SR, Protective Aura and Tongues.

Furthermore, they also have a gaze that either causes instant death or Fear (though the fact that allies will probably be more vulnerable to it than foes makes it not that great).

Ghaeles, like Bralani, have an alternate form: theirs is a globe of light. It's mostly underwhelming: losing spellcasting for flight, incorporeality and a couple of natural attacks isn't worth it most of the time. Of course, incorporeality can solo monsters even at higher levels, so I wouldn't write it off entirely.

The SLA's I won't individually review, but they're generally useful.

So what LA to give here? +4 seems like a minimum, but even then I'm having trouble seeing people pick cleric over this. Full casters being stronger than other classes, I think a LA of +6 fits best here.

Now to steel myself for the flood of disagreement...

Oh, i can feel the power, as i expected LA+4 is the minium and even then is overpowered for LA+4.
Ghaele is considered a workable savage species monster class until high level for a reason, the are truly powerfull

If the Ghaele had 14 HD and cast as a 14th level Cleric, I'd be happy with ECL 16. But 10 HD and ECL 16 is dicey - the Ghaele has lower HP, weaker skills, fewer feats than a cleric. At ECL16 any caster can get physical ability score bonuses if they try, so these goodies aren't as shiny as they would normally be. LA0 clerics can also enjoy prestige class bonuses - you're not really looking at Ghaele 16 vs Cleric 16, but Ghaele 16 vs Cleric 5/cool stuff 11.

Ultimately, I think a case could be made for LA+5.

I agrre with Flicker that lost HD hurt a lot and i think a LA+5 could be nice, but i don't think +6 is bad either. +7 would be too much, clearly.
I think that his LA falls somewhere between +5 and +6.

[Troacctid]

I think lost HD don't hurt as much as you might think, due to the energy resistance, spell resistance, and DR 10/- (let's be honest, DR/evil and cold iron is essentially DR/-), not to mention the nigh-invulnerability you get in incorporeal form. You also get a Con bonus and d8 hit dice, which probably gives you more HP than a human wizard of the same level.

Going below +6 seems crazy to me.

[Daedroth]

I think lost HD don't hurt as much as you might think, due to the energy resistance, spell resistance, and DR 10/- (let's be honest, DR/evil and cold iron is essentially DR/-), not to mention the nigh-invulnerability you get in incorporeal form. You also get a Con bonus and d8 hit dice, which probably gives you more HP than a human wizard of the same level.

Going below +6 seems crazy to me.

Its not human wizard that i compare to, is human cleric who fills a similar niche.

[Troacctid]

You probably have more HP than a cloistered cleric too.

[Flickerdart]

You probably have more HP than a cloistered cleric too.

Cloistered cleric has other advantages, though. And then immediately prestiges into something with better HD.

[Troacctid]

Cloistered cleric has other advantages, though. And then immediately prestiges into something with better HD.

Do they, though? One of the big benefits of a cloistered cleric is that you get 6 + Int skill points, which you would lose by prestiging.

[ImperatorV]

I thought the biggest advantage of Cloistered Cleric was the extra domain. I haven't once heard of people taking it for the extra skill points.

[Flickerdart]

Do they, though? One of the big benefits of a cloistered cleric is that you get 6 + Int skill points, which you would lose by prestiging.

Why do you care about skills when you have ~*~magic~*~?

[Zaydos]

Advantage of Cloistered Cleric is 6 + Int skills to pour into Knowledge, and the argument that RAW you can swap Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion and keep all Knowledge skills and there's no way of knowing for certain that the RAI was that they had Knowledge skills and Knowledge Domain with the intent those went together.

I think lost HD don't hurt as much as you might think, due to the energy resistance, spell resistance, and DR 10/- (let's be honest, DR/evil and cold iron is essentially DR/-), not to mention the nigh-invulnerability you get in incorporeal form. You also get a Con bonus and d8 hit dice, which probably gives you more HP than a human wizard of the same level.

Going below +6 seems crazy to me.

DR 10/evil and cold iron is risky if you fight baatezu actually equipped for fighting their DR X/Cold Iron arch nemeses. It's actually not substantially harder to overcome by level 15 than DR 10/Cold Iron.

That said I agree with you in general.

+6 is minimum, +7 probably would work, +10 (what 3.0 gave them) was too high.

[Amidus Drexel]

As has been said above, I'd be okay with ECL 16 if it wasn't for the 10HD. At that level, you've got a lot of HD-dependent things like blasphemy or dismissal to worry about, and having a HD count 6 below the rest of the party will get you paralyzed or killed very quickly, no save. SR 28 is impressive for ECL 10 - not so much for ECL 16 (though it is, admittedly, better than the "average": 27).

Admittedly, +5 isn't a whole lot better than +6 here (an enemy caster will have blasphemy at ECL 15, which still spells no-save paralysis if it beats your SR), but it makes the HD gap a bit less pronounced. I don't think you can really go below +5, but that's probably where I'd put it.

(also, you'd be missing out on multiple feats, BAB, skill points, etc, but those aren't really as important)

+7 is definitely unreasonable, though.

[Thurbane]

I'll throw my hat in the ring for +7, or +6...

[Troacctid]

As has been said above, I'd be okay with ECL 16 if it wasn't for the 10HD. At that level, you've got a lot of HD-dependent things like blasphemy or dismissal to worry about, and having a HD count 6 below the rest of the party will get you paralyzed or killed very quickly, no save. SR 28 is impressive for ECL 10 - not so much for ECL 16 (though it is, admittedly, better than the "average": 27).

Admittedly, +5 isn't a whole lot better than +6 here (an enemy caster will have blasphemy at ECL 15, which still spells no-save paralysis if it beats your SR), but it makes the HD gap a bit less pronounced. I don't think you can really go below +5, but that's probably where I'd put it.

(also, you'd be missing out on multiple feats, BAB, skill points, etc, but those aren't really as important)

+7 is definitely unreasonable, though.

That pretty much only matters against balors and pit fiends. Like, exactly balors and pit fiends and nothing else in the Monster Manual, unless I'm misremembering, right? I mean, how many monsters actually have blasphemy? It seems like a very niche concern. And the fact that you have spell resistance means it's not really no-save, because you do get a roll to block it. You have the same chance of resisting a balor's blasphemy that a character with +13 to Fortitude has to resist its implosion, for example.

[Amidus Drexel]

That pretty much only matters against balors and pit fiends. Like, exactly balors and pit fiends and nothing else in the Monster Manual, unless I'm misremembering, right? I mean, how many monsters actually have blasphemy? It seems like a very niche concern. And the fact that you have spell resistance means it's not really no-save, because you do get a roll to block it. You have the same chance of resisting a balor's blasphemy that a character with +13 to Fortitude has to resist its implosion, for example.

That isn't the only HD-dependent spell out there (though after a quick look through the core spells, there are less than I remembered) - and there are more monsters than just the ones in the core books. I also had NPC casters with cleric levels (or something equivalent) in mind, but I suppose that doesn't widen the field all that much.

That said, I'll revise my position to say that +6 is fair. I still think +7 is too much.

[No brains]

Also remember that if you have few HD and are an outsider, you can get trapped at any time by Planar Binding. The bad guys can kidnap you at any time and your allies can prank you super-annoyingly.

[TotallyNotEvil]

At +5, I'd pick them over Cleric 15 any time. At 16, unless I had a specific build I really wanted to try out, I'd also pick it over Cleric 16 without any real hesitation.

A LA of +7 would mean they would get 9th level spells by 20, yes? I don't thinly it's a bad trade at all.

But then again, the Playground is deathly afraid of any LA whatsoever. +6 is indeed the lowest I would go, with a strong argument for +7 IMO.

The slew of SLAs and Special abilities more than make up for the lack of prestige classes.

[Troacctid]

I think +6 makes them actively good. +7 is conservative but fair.

There are a lot of benefits in this package. I don't think we've even mentioned how great it is to get greater invisibility at will, dispel magic at will, charm monster at will, greater teleport at will—all of those are a big deal! And hold monster, major image, see invisibility, lesser globe of invulnerability, and double-strength magic circle against evil are no joke either. Not to mention that gaze attack, which is a free action save-or-lose every round against everyone within 60 feet. Oh, and how about those top-notch ability scores? +6 all mental stats, +14 Strength, +4 Con, and +2 Dex for good measure? That's real.

Consider how you would duplicate this with class levels. I guess the nearest you could get would be an Eldritch Disciple, maybe? At +6, the ghaele is better than that, and I don't even think it's close.

Also worth noting is that the ghaele monster class in Savage Species has +10 LA, and not only is it still playable, it's actually legitimately powerful, even when stacked up against a normal cleric.

[Metahuman1]

That pretty much only matters against balors and pit fiends. Like, exactly balors and pit fiends and nothing else in the Monster Manual, unless I'm misremembering, right? I mean, how many monsters actually have blasphemy? It seems like a very niche concern. And the fact that you have spell resistance means it's not really no-save, because you do get a roll to block it. You have the same chance of resisting a balor's blasphemy that a character with +13 to Fortitude has to resist its implosion, for example.

And Titans. And I think some Dragons. And enemy's with spell caster class levels, monster or otherwise.




I'm gonna go against current here. I think LA 4 is workable. That's such an incredibly stiff LA number the only things i've ever heard of being worth it form the PC side of the table are Pixies.

[Inevitability]

I'm gonna go against current here. I think LA 4 is workable. That's such an incredibly stiff LA number the only things i've ever heard of being worth it form the PC side of the table are Pixies.

Yeah, but Pixies don't get what amounts to fourteen free levels in one of the game's most powerful classes.

[Troacctid]

LA +4 is essentially LA +0 when a creature has casting 4 levels above its HD. LA +8 would be the true equivalent of the pixie's LA +4.

[Mystic Muse]

I personally am in favor of +6. Anything lower feels like too little for what you get, anything more feels too far.

Granted, I haven't actually seen one of these in play, this is just my gut feeling.