Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Quartz]

Updated MITD thread. Added wis 11+ to Lien

Just a nitpick but do we know that Lien gains her spellcasting from her Paladin class levels? There are classes that gain divine spellcasting from Cha. The Prestige Class Divine Crusader comes to mind.

[illyahr]

Paladins gain spells naturally. The only reason they wouldn't is if they have specific ACF's that replace spellcasting. Since we have no evidence she has one of these few very specific ACF's and we definitely have no evidence of a Prestige Class, the only suitable answer we do have evidence for is that she gains her spells from her Paladin levels.

[Peelee]

Just a nitpick but do we know that Lien gains her spellcasting from her Paladin class levels? There are classes that gain divine spellcasting from Cha. The Prestige Class Divine Crusader comes to mind.

We have no reason to believe she's anything other than a single-class paladin.

[dancrilis]

For Lien and O-Chul all Hinjo says in 671 is that they have gained a few levels where he hasn't - but he doesn't state that they are higher level than he is.

For example if Lien and O-Chul have leveled up twice but have chosen feats/skills/attribute points etc that are appropraite in a post-Azure city world where Hinjo is still with his build focused for leadership of a city and fighting with alongside multiple paladins or with an army than they might still be behind him but better capable of undertaking the mission.

Just dubious on if 671 is enough to justify stating that a certainty with regard to their minimum levels.

[b_jonas]

For Lien and O-Chul all Hinjo says in 671 is that they have gained a few levels where he hasn't - but he doesn't state that they are higher level than he is.

But we do have additional information about O-Chul. O-Chul said he started out as a Monk, and further, he doesn't own a mount, which makes it likely that he has very few Paladin levels. Hinjo has a mount, so it's almost certain that he has more levels in Paladin.

[dancrilis]

But we do have additional information about O-Chul. O-Chul said he started out as a Monk, and further, he doesn't own a mount, which makes it likely that he has very few Paladin levels. Hinjo has a mount, so it's almost certain that he has more levels in Paladin.

Levels in fighter actually - but I am not sure what that has to do with my point.

[Ruck]

For Lien and O-Chul all Hinjo says in 671 is that they have gained a few levels where he hasn't - but he doesn't state that they are higher level than he is.

For example if Lien and O-Chul have leveled up twice but have chosen feats/skills/attribute points etc that are appropraite in a post-Azure city world where Hinjo is still with his build focused for leadership of a city and fighting with alongside multiple paladins or with an army than they might still be behind him but better capable of undertaking the mission.

Just dubious on if 671 is enough to justify stating that a certainty with regard to their minimum levels.

While possible, I think the implication that the levels gained make Lien and O-Chul higher than Hinjo is the most straightforward one. After all, Hinjo is also younger than either of them, and as I understand it, that would give them more time to adventure and gain levels.

[Yanisa]

While possible, I think the implication that the levels gained make Lien and O-Chul higher than Hinjo is the most straightforward one. After all, Hinjo is also younger than either of them, and as I understand it, that would give them more time to adventure and gain levels.

But Hinjo was the second most powerful paladin in The Sapphire Guard (#409), after Miko. Which means Lien and O-Chul used to be weaker then him (regardless of age). It's only after the fall of the city that he stops leveling because he leads, while they can adventure.

That does mean that at some point Lien and O-Chul are going to be higher level. I am not sure if that is around #671 but that makes the most sense. And they are surely now around #1031.

[woweedd]

But Hinjo was the second most powerful paladin in The Sapphire Guard (#409), after Miko. Which means Lien and O-Chul used to be weaker then him (regardless of age). It's only after the fall of the city that he stops leveling because he leads, while they can adventure.

That does mean that at some point Lien and O-Chul are going to be higher level. I am not sure if that is around #671 but that makes the most sense. And they are surely now around #1031.

To be fair, the "most powerful "claim" is by Miko who is not exactly an unbiased source.

[b_jonas]

Levels in fighter actually - but I am not sure what that has to do with my point.

Ah right, it was Miko who started out as a Monk. Hmm, maybe dual-classing is more common in the Sapphire Guard than I thought.

[Quild]

There's something weird during the phantasm but that's at most a hint for later.

Xykon* says that he felt a hit and he guesses Roy took his advice and leveled up.
This comes directly from Roy's mind because he's the only one who knows that Xykon told him that. And the green effect already triggered a lot against Xykon while fighting on the dragon.

So why would Roy believe that Xykon felt that hit more than during AC's fight if he's actually lower level than before?
I wouldn't be surprised if he actually was higher level than during AC's fight and that his complain in #990 would be exagerated.

On another hand, at level 15, he should get another attack during a full attack...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So why would Roy believe that Xykon felt that hit more than during AC's fight if he's actually lower level than before?

Because it's a self-agrandizing fantasy, and therefore despite all available evidence, Roy wants to believe that if he fought Xykon, he'd make a bigger impact on Xykon than he did the last time. That despite everything else, he will roll nothing but 20s to hit, or max damage rolls, or the like, and that this time, this time, Xykon will remember who he is, and why he's fighting him.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

So why would Roy believe that Xykon felt that hit more than during AC's fight if he's actually lower level than before?

Perhaps he knows his belt of giant strength would increase his melee damage? He got it on the Western Continent, after the Battle for Azure City, after all.

[b_jonas]

So why would Roy believe that Xykon felt that hit more than during AC's fight if he's actually lower level than before?

The next time, Xykon won't be able to shatter Roy's sword. The problem is that the first time he met Xykon (in #112), Durkon has enchanted the sword by Disruption, which would cause one hit to utterly destroy Xykon. The next time, he might not have that opportunity, because Durkon is busy with other business, and there's no other high-level cleric available.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The next time, Xykon won't be able to shatter Roy's sword. The problem is that the first time he met Xykon (in #112), Durkon has enchanted the sword by Disruption, which would cause one hit to utterly destroy Xykon. The next time, he might not have that opportunity, because Durkon is busy with other business, and there's no other high-level cleric available.

Actually that was never going to work. Durkons level was far too low for his spell to affect Xykon and likely will still be too low even at the final encounter. They didn't realize how powerful the lich was back then.

[Quild]

Perhaps he knows his belt of giant strength would increase his melee damage? He got it on the Western Continent, after the Battle for Azure City, after all.

While I was inclined to think the same thing than Grey Wolf wrote, I agree that this may contribute.

[Bad Hair Day]

In the strip where the Mind Flayer evaluates each member of the party, it is obvious that Roy is a much better meal than Varsuvius. I always thought that Roy started out with an Int of 18 and V with 17. As they progressed in levels, V has undoubtedly gotten well past Int 20, and Roy put his increases into strength.

This would be funny to have a party where the fighter has a higher Int than the wizard. It would also be consistent with Roy getting his Int from his dad. And Roy has always displayed a pretty high innate intelligence in the comic (although I admit this is all plot driven). Plus, it does take some pretty high intelligence in the real world to get an MBA, and I assume the same would be true of a graduate degree in their world. So Roy's Masters in Battle Administration also supports my pet theory.

[Peelee]

In the strip where the Mind Flayer evaluates each member of the party, it is obvious that Roy is a much better meal than Varsuvius. I always thought that Roy started out with an Int of 18 and V with 17. As they progressed in levels, V has undoubtedly gotten well past Int 20, and Roy put his increases into strength.

This would be funny to have a party where the fighter has a higher Int than the wizard. It would also be consistent with Roy getting his Int from his dad. And Roy has always displayed a pretty high innate intelligence in the comic (although I admit this is all plot driven). Plus, it does take some pretty high intelligence in the real world to get an MBA, and I assume the same would be true of a graduate degree in their world. So Roy's Masters in Battle Administration also supports my pet theory.

V has higher Int. Roy has lower (but still high) Int, as well as good Wis and Cha.

[Bad Hair Day]

V has higher Int. Roy has lower (but still high) Int, as well as good Wis and Cha.

I was raised on 1st edition. I have a hard time adjusting to think of Wis and Cha as things a Mind Flayer would be interested in.

[dancrilis]

Can we assume that Belkar has 'Skill: Search 1+' he seems to be assisting Haley here (and she references him as 'we've').

[Peelee]

Can we assume that Belkar has 'Skill: Search 1+' he seems to be assisting Haley here (and she references him as 'we've').

The "we" is likely referencing the Order as a whole, not her and Belkar. On the assisting part, i have no opinion.

[Peelee]

I was raised on 1st edition. I have a hard time adjusting to think of Wis and Cha as things a Mind Flayer would be interested in.

Eh, it struck me as less of a rules joke and more of Roy being a "more filling meal" than V's "everything you need but severely lacking flavor."

Edit: ....aaaaaaand my analogy works better for Durkon. Boo.

[Jasdoif]

Can we assume that Belkar has 'Skill: Search 1+' he seems to be assisting Haley here (and she references him as 'we've').

Aid Another doesn't require being trained in the skill, and Search has no trained only uses. (The limit on detecting traps is a function of the rogue's trapfinding class feature, not of being trained in the skill.)

[Reboot]

To be fair, the "most powerful "claim" is by Miko who is not exactly an unbiased source.

Considering some of the sources which have been taken at face value for this thread, Miko's word in this context is a bastion of truth, knowledge and the paladin way.

Ah right, it was Miko who started out as a Monk. Hmm, maybe dual-classing is more common in the Sapphire Guard than I thought.

At the same time, once the first Paladin level is taken, they must focus on Paladin levels or never be able to add more, ja? (Both Miko and O'Chul started as something else and multiclassed into Paladin). It's unlikely that either Lien or O'Chul will have taken levels in anything else post-Azure City as a result, as someone else sugggested.

[LuisDantas]

That does mean that at some point Lien and O-Chul are going to be higher level. I am not sure if that is around #671 but that makes the most sense. And they are surely now around #1031.

Assuming that they have been earning more XP than Hinjo in the meantime, that is. Our evidence goes against it, as it turns out. They have travelled and evaded an encounter, while Hinjo has been leading a dungeon party.

[Gitman00]

Are we going strictly by game mechanics and explicit in-comic statements when determining alignment? Because if not, I'd say the latest comic is evidence that Eugene is no longer LG. I can't see someone with that alignment being okay with the deaths of everyone on the planet just so he can get into the afterlife. He still has reservations about the Dwarves being enslaved to Hel, so I wouldn't say he's all the way to evil, but LN seems about right.

EDIT: Never mind, I see my question is answered in the FAQ. We'll probably have to wait until the blood oath is fulfilled to see if the Deva lets him into the LG afterlife.

[Ephemera]

Are we going strictly by game mechanics and explicit in-comic statements when determining alignment?

If you want to be extra nitpicky, I'm not even sure whether his actions post-mortem actually get weighed, or whether he'll only be judged on how he acted before he died. If it weren't, as you noted, a moot point we could probably get into a good argument on the subject...

[Flickerdart]

we could probably get into a good argument on the subject...

Oh, Eugene can't be Good, but the argument can be? This anti-human bias is preposterous.

[Peelee]

Oh, Eugene can't be Good, but the argument can be? This anti-human bias is preposterous.

Well, the argument has died and come back a few times by now, right? I'd imagine a quick plane shift next time it dies can confirm.

[Quartz]

I think we've yet to see proof, but it's possible that going through enough of those dungeons has enabled Redcloak to go up a level or even two.