Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[GreatWyrmGold]

In the end, I don't think there's a large contingent here who are thrilled with the "invisible metamagic rod" explanation, just a contingent who find that less unpalatable than the "Zyklon is lvl 27/31" explanations...

Why?
Also, how do metamagic feats put his level that high?

Obviously the "real" answer is that the Giant doesn't stat things out precisely, but we're not trying to decide what's in Rich's head, only what the best rules-based explanation for what happens is.

I would have thought the "best explanation" would be the simplest. Since Xykon's metamagic isn't suggested to be dependent on some invisible item (or even limited to three times a day), it seems simpler to me that they aren't.

Isnt making wands out of bone a thing? And Xykon, being made out of bones, might make use of this?

My intuition is that Xykon taking one of his bones and using it as a wand would be slightly less unpleasant than a living being doing the same thing.

[Chei]

Why?
Also, how do metamagic feats put his level that high?

From my admittedly limited understanding, when Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain on Darth V, he did two things:

1. Cast from a 12th-level spell slot
2. Broke this thread over his knee.

EDIT: To actually answer your question, Xykon would need to take the feat Improved Spell Capacity [Epic] three times in order to cast Maximized Energy Drain under his own power. Since we know he took the feat for Epic Spellcasting, he can't have taken the feat at 21. This leaves him taking it at 23, with the sorcerer bonus feat, 24 naturally, and at 26 with another sorcerer bonus feat.

[Ruck]

The PG-13 version of this comic would obviously mine a great deal of juvenile humor out of Xykon's enchanted rod...

Well, we already had a Rod of Lordly Might joke, not to mention the puns about Hinjo's junk.

[b_jonas]

Isnt making wands out of bone a thing? And Xykon, being made out of bones, might make use of this?

Wands, sure. But a wand doesn't provide continuous bonuses. Staffs can be made of bone, and possibly rods too, but the problem there is size. The rules, however, say "A typical staff is 4 feet to 7 feet long", and "Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal". This means you can hardly make rod from any bone in a human-sized skeleton, and definitely can't make a staff. You could make rods from bones of larger animals, and perhaps a giant humanoid could have one of their bones turned to a rod, but Xykon doesn't seem oversized compared to humans. There's also the problem that Xykon has lots his body once and generated a new one.

[Kastor]

Wands, sure. But a wand doesn't provide continuous bonuses. Staffs can be made of bone, and possibly rods too, but the problem there is size. The rules, however, say "A typical staff is 4 feet to 7 feet long", and "Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal". This means you can hardly make rod from any bone in a human-sized skeleton, and definitely can't make a staff. You could make rods from bones of larger animals, and perhaps a giant humanoid could have one of their bones turned to a rod, but Xykon doesn't seem oversized compared to humans.

Well thank you for humouring the thought. I admit, I enjoyed the idea of Xykon commenting that he's used up most of his spell slots, only to grab his femurs and keep casting a couple spells from those, unlikely and as out of character that would be.

There's also the problem that Xykon has lots his body once and generated a new one.

In 543 Xykon mentions that he can only spend 8 hours a day making magic items. He says it in such a way to imply that he does it very frequently, likely in many cases just because he's bored. making a few wands? should be easy-peasy for him, at least taking his statements at face value.

[Quild]

Wands, sure. But a wand doesn't provide continuous bonuses. Staffs can be made of bone, and possibly rods too, but the problem there is size. The rules, however, say "A typical staff is 4 feet to 7 feet long", and "Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal". This means you can hardly make rod from any bone in a human-sized skeleton, and definitely can't make a staff. You could make rods from bones of larger animals, and perhaps a giant humanoid could have one of their bones turned to a rod, but Xykon doesn't seem oversized compared to humans. There's also the problem that Xykon has lots his body once and generated a new one.

You're missing the idea that rod's effects could be transfered in something else than rods. Like the Ioun Stone was transmogrified in a bracelet.

Funny how Xykon cares for his pelvis in #900/#901 and how he seems more or less used to replace it and how he doesn't care for his legs.

[Kurald Galain]

I would have thought the "best explanation" would be the simplest.

A practical problem with Occam's Razor is that people tend to disagree which explanation is, in fact, the simplest.

[littlebum2002]

A practical problem with Occam's Razor is that people tend to disagree which explanation is, in fact, the simplest.

Seriously. This is like a summary of every online debate, ever.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A practical problem with Occam's Razor is that people tend to disagree which explanation is, in fact, the simplest.

Technically, Occam's Razor says you should use the theory that requires the fewest assumptions (rather than "the simplest"), but in this case the number of assumptions is broadly equivalent ("that's a lot of XP" vs "we haven't seen a rod"), and Occam is not really all that useful when theorising about fictional stories where the author will violate Occam repeatedly for tension, plot, jokes, etc.

Put another way: "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras", except that in stories, zebras are actually about as equally likely.

GW

[GreatWyrmGold]

From my admittedly limited understanding, when Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain on Darth V, he did two things:

1. Cast from a 12th-level spell slot
2. Broke this thread over his knee.

EDIT: To actually answer your question, Xykon would need to take the feat Improved Spell Capacity [Epic] three times in order to cast Maximized Energy Drain under his own power. Since we know he took the feat for Epic Spellcasting, he can't have taken the feat at 21. This leaves him taking it at 23, with the sorcerer bonus feat, 24 naturally, and at 26 with another sorcerer bonus feat.

Ah, I see.
I still don't see why Xykon's level being in the mid-20's is such a problem, or a less plausible assumption than "he has at least one metamagic rod which isn't actually rod-shaped, nor appears to be invoked when he maximizes spells".

[Ephemera]

Ah, I see.
I still don't see why Xykon's level being in the mid-20's is such a problem, or a less plausible assumption than "he has at least one metamagic rod which isn't actually rod-shaped, nor appears to be invoked when he maximizes spells".

You're not getting a lot of enthusiasm for discussing this because the old hands all went through it several times (sadly, my google-fu appears to be too weak to turn up the relevant incarnation of this thread in an amount of time I'm willing to devote to the search, but maybe someone else can provide a link). I wasn't even an active poster at the time, and I'm exhausted just thinking about the debate that everyone had over this.

That said, I think that a non-rod explanation might require him to be as high as level 32, depending on how you think he gets immunity to fire (which he claims after he casts meteor strike on himself to get rid of Darth V's grasping hand), plus the question of whether it's even possible to use metamagic whilst grappled. I think the principle objections to this are A) the question of how he'd have leveled up that much given the relative scarcity of epic-level opponents in the stickverse (combined with his level adjustment as a lich and some idea of his level in the Start of Darkness era that maxes out at low epic, I think) and B) his statement to Roy that he's 8 or so levels above him during the fight atop the zombie dragon.

I've probably forgotten some other case against him being level 27, other than the idea that he's not a level-appropriate foe for the order if he is (let alone for the order around level 9 during their first encounter with him), which is probably a weak argument for the same reason that we don't use probabilities.

That's the best I can do (although I'm sure someone will chime in with corrections)--it's probably best to go find the earlier discussion (which is loooong) if you're really interested.

Also, Grey Wolf--zebras! The MITD is clearly a zebra!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

the question of whether it's even possible to use metamagic whilst grappled.

I believe that this is answered by "he is probably a metamagic specialist sorcerer alt class feature", fwiw.

Also, Grey Wolf--zebras! The MITD is clearly a zebra!

You are all rotters and I hate you

()

GW

[arrowed]

If Xykon had made parts of his body into magic items, would they have been destroyed when he was thrown at Dorukan's Gate, and would the OOTS have discovered them, seeing how they found that ring of wizardry on his finger bone? This assumes the X-man had started magic item body part shenanigans before that event, but another point: considering O'Chull made a list of Xykon's spells and feats, and identified Redcloak's holy symbol as Xykon's phylactery, do you think he'd have noticed any other magic items Xykon or Redcloak had? I love these things.

[Quartz]

I still don't see why Xykon's level being in the mid-20's is such a problem,

Briefly, the stats at the top of the thread are minima. If you assume no magic items other than those already known and that the Superb Dispelling he cast is the one from the ELH, you can do Xykon as a 27th level Sorceror with the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature or 29th level if he has no Int bonus. Epic feats required are Epic Spellcasting and Epic Skill Focus. Quoting myself:

Assuming a required +49:

24 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) gives +2 synergy bonus
or 25+ ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) gives +4 synergy bonus at level 22+
Skill Focus gives +3
Epic Skill Focus gives +10.
Page 1 of this thread gives him about Int 15 which gives +2.

Note that Xykon cannot have both Epic Skill Focus and Epic Spellcasting at level 21 but he might not have the +4 synergy bonus at level 22.

So we're looking at bonuses of 17 or 19 to the base skill which means a base skill of 32 or 30 respectively. Taking the lower skill number puts Xykon at level 27+, which seems about right. No magic item required.

I've not quoted the last paragraph as that's covered by the Metamagic Specialist ACF.

[Kurald Galain]

A practical problem with Occam's Razor is that people tend to disagree which explanation is, in fact, the simplest.

Case in point,

Ah, I see.
I still don't see why <redacted> is such a problem, or a less plausible assumption than <redacted>.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Technically, Occam's Razor says you should use the theory that requires the fewest assumptions (rather than "the simplest"), but in this case the number of assumptions is broadly equivalent ("that's a lot of XP" vs "we haven't seen a rod"), and Occam is not really all that useful when theorising about fictional stories where the author will violate Occam repeatedly for tension, plot, jokes, etc.

Put another way: "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras", except that in stories, zebras are actually about as equally likely.

GW

-raises hand- What if you are in Africa?

[zimmerwald1915]

-raises hand- What if you are in Africa?

Keep thinking horses. Especially in north Africa.

[Emanick]

Keep thinking horses. Especially in north Africa.

Wow, that was a fascinating article. Thanks for the link!

[Peelee]

I still think cows are more likely in a lot of places. More than two animals have hooves, ya know.

[littlebum2002]

Put another way: "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras", except that in stories, zebras are actually about as equally likely.

GW

-raises hand- What if you are in Africa?

-also raises hand- What if you are Dr. House?

[Quartz]

Epic feats required are Epic Spellcasting and Epic Skill Focus.

By the by, it was suggest that Xykon had a ring that boosted Spellcraft or Arcana or both. As he already has two rings, that would require an epic feat unless the ring was slotless.

[Ephemera]

-also raises hand- What if you are Dr. House?

Which is kind of the point about why we don't use averages, since in works of fiction (like House or OOTS), unlikely events occur at plot-relevant frequencies...

I still think cows are more likely in a lot of places. More than two animals have hooves, ya know.

Well...the most likely kind of cattle to encounter are domestic ones, and domesticated cows rarely make any noises that you'd describe as "hoofbeats." On the other hand, if a herd of cows is moving fast enough to make hoofbeats, it's probably a stampede, and you shouldn't think anything, just get out of the way.

[Emanick]

Well...the most likely kind of cattle to encounter are domestic ones, and domesticated cows rarely make any noises that you'd describe as "hoofbeats." On the other hand, if a herd of cows is moving fast enough to make hoofbeats, it's probably a stampede, and you shouldn't think anything, just get out of the way.

Yeah, this. Do wild cows even exist these days, anywhere? Are there such things are non-domesticated ones?

[Peelee]

Well...the most likely kind of cattle to encounter are domestic ones, and domesticated cows rarely make any noises that you'd describe as "hoofbeats." On the other hand, if a herd of cows is moving fast enough to make hoofbeats, it's probably a stampede, and you shouldn't think anything, just get out of the way.

Only speaking for myself, but I'm equally likely to find non-domesticated horses as well as non-domesticated cows. Also, I've heard a lot of cows run and jump, without stampedes. I've lived near a lot of cows. And horses. No zebras, admittedly.


Actually, if i hear hoofbeats, I'm thinking deer. Man, screw deer.

[Ephemera]

Yeah, this. Do wild cows even exist these days, anywhere? Are there such things are non-domesticated ones?

Technically, I think that cows are descended from the (now extinct) aurochs. There are a variety of wild cattle that still exist in the wild (i.e. water buffalo, cape buffalo, gaur) although most of them are endangered, apparently. There appear to be feral cattle roaming Alaska (and no doubt some other parts of the world), which I guess are kind of wild cows now.*

The more you know...



*This paragraph brought to you by 2 minutes of internet research, so while my sources are 1 step above Wikipedia, rely on any of this at your own risk.

[Kastor]

Actually, if i hear hoofbeats, I'm thinking deer. Man, screw deer.

I disagree, I love deer! They're really cute, if a tad prolific.

Now, drrrrrrr on the other hand... they're troublesome.

[Peelee]

I disagree, I love deer! They're really cute, if a tad prolific.

Move to Alabama. You'll change your mind quick

[Jasdoif]

By the by, it was suggest that Xykon had a ring that boosted Spellcraft or Arcana or both. As he already has two rings, that would require an epic feat unless the ring was slotless.

Hmm. I wonder if "invisible hand of glory" is more/less/equally likely than "invisible metamagic rod".

Actually, if i hear hoofbeats, I'm thinking deer. Man, screw deer.

Do deer even produce noticeable hoofbeats? None of the ones I've seen walking around the house or through the neighbor's yard I've ever heard. Not even the few that've wandered in front of my car over the years produced noises I could discern.

[Crusher]

I still think cows are more likely in a lot of places. More than two animals have hooves, ya know.

So, clearly centaurs. Which are also a fine candidate for... oh, nevermind.

As someone who lives in an area with a lot of deer, those things are surprisingly quiet for their size. We also have a lot of squirrels and the deer are generally quieter than the squirrels. Which is kind of weird if you think about it. I think the squirrel game-plan is all about volume, rather than stealth like you'd expect.

[Peelee]

So, clearly centaurs. Which are also a fine candidate for... oh, nevermind.

Too late, I'm all aboard that train.