Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[unbeliever536]

On the other hand, the same #1075 shows Roy using a Bull Rush against Bertha without her making an attack of opportunity on him (note that she doesn't make the attack and miss. She just doesn't attack). Shouldn't this be evidence he has Improved Bull Rush?

The maneuver Bandana executes seems designed to give the frost giant unstable footing, which would deny her the AoO without requiring Roy to have Improved Bullrush.

[Ephemera]

I'm not totally sure that "she's as strong as I am" necessarily implies they have exactly the same strength score. Conversationally, that could also reasonably mean "she's at least as strong as I am" ("_plus_ she has more mass..."). Now if he's said "I'm as strong as she is, but..."

I guess we could assume he'd have said "she's stronger than me" if she were a lot stronger. I guess we're allowing that he knows exactly what her strength score is...more reason to assume that he's basing this on standard frost giant strength, but it seems like it's a reasonable thing for him to have said if he had, say, strength 27 or 28.

That said, I don't object to concluding that he has 29+ because I'm all for making some assumptions that let us figure out stats.

[dsollen]

Belkar's stats say ranger 14/barbarian. We know he is level 15, but not for certain he is level 14 ranger, as it's possible that he raised barbarian a second time. It's unlikely sure, but plausible enough for such strict rules on this forum that I figure we should acknowledge it.

I'd recommend reverting it to ranger 12/barbarian with a total level 15 added after that.

In fact since such a wonderful analysis was done during the last discussion of Belkar's level, to reprove durkon as level 14, I would say we should document it better. We have limited Durkon to one of only a few domains for his second domain (of which heal is by far the most likely in my mind, but we can't prove it). Can we possibly record this on his character page so this effort isn't forgotten?

As to the arguments about Roys strength, I would not raise it above 29! I was the one that originally pointed out the argument about Roy being 'as strong as' the Giant, but as was pointed out on this forum we don't have a good way of explaining how Roy's strength got so high. Given that fact, and the potential ambiguity of Roy's statement and the fact that Roy could have simply misjudged her strength (if he has 28 and she 29 strength isn't it possible he wouldn't notice the 1/29 difference in strength level's between them?). I'm not going to fight a str of 29, but that is enough of a stretch that arguing a 29+ is just too large a suspension of disbelief for me.

[D.One]

The maneuver Bandana executes seems designed to give the frost giant unstable footing, which would deny her the AoO without requiring Roy to have Improved Bullrush.

You're assuming Bandana's move was meant to provoke a (failed) Balance check from Bertha, which caused her to become flat-footed, and thus unable to make AoOs. Makes sense. I agree.

Now that I look at it, there's yet another evidence that Roy shouldn't have Improved Bull Rush. He seems to believe he would be in some kind of disadvantage against her in a Bull Rush situation, since he says that their STR is the same, but she has more mass. More mass, in DnD, translates to Bigger Size. Since she is Large, it would translate in a +4 bonus for her. Considering their STR the same, IF he had Improved Bull Rush, he would know that the +4 she had would be balanced with his +4 gained from the feat, and thus her "mass" shouldn't be such an issue.

[D.One]

As to the arguments about Roys strength, I would not raise it above 29! I was the one that originally pointed out the argument about Roy being 'as strong as' the Giant, but as was pointed out on this forum we don't have a good way of explaining how Roy's strength got so high. Given that fact, and the potential ambiguity of Roy's statement and the fact that Roy could have simply misjudged her strength (if he has 28 and she 29 strength isn't it possible he wouldn't notice the 1/29 difference in strength level's between them?). I'm not going to fight a str of 29, but that is enough of a stretch that arguing a 29+ is just too large a suspension of disbelief for me.

About Roy's STR, I believe one of our premisses here is that the characters are capable to access their own stats, and usually are speaking face value, unless they are clearly lying or wrong.

That said, I believe Roy is one of the most "stats-savy" characters, and would be reasonable for him to be able to calculate her strenght bonus based on her weapon type, size and taking a few hits. Or he could just have assumed she had STR 29. The catch, I think, is that, for combat effects, and STR checks, both STR 28 and STR 29 have the same +9 bonus, making them essentially "the same STR" for most purposes.

With that in mind, it would be not that much of a stretch to imagine that Roy could consider that Bertha was "as strong as he is" if they had the same bonus. Thus, maybe his STR should be 28+, not 29 or 29+.

Thoughts about this?

PS: On an afterthought, I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here...

[GravityEmblem]

If Miron used Mind Probe, doesn't that make her a Telepath? Unless I'm incorrect, the "no house rules" baseline dictates that she must have that speciality.

[Jasdoif]

If Miron used Mind Probe, doesn't that make her a Telepath? Unless I'm incorrect, the "no house rules" baseline dictates that she must have that speciality.

I'm assuming you mean Laurin....And not necessarily, no; Expanded Knowledge explicitly allows gaining powers from other disciplines/classes.

In fact, Laurin's also listed with clairvoyant sense (a seer-discipline power) and control body (a kineticist-discipline power); so some degree of cross-disciplinarian access is happening regardless. (Or I suppose, if the list of best guesses for powers is totally off-base....)

[alwaysbebatman]

So, I've been looking through this thread, but not finding what I'm curious about. Has there been much speculation about Tarquin's class? Are we leaving it blank just because it can't be proven definitively? Or is there reason to believe he's not pure fighter?

[Quartz]

Tarquin's class(es), level, magic items, and so on were gone into extensively in previous editions of this thread, with many good arguments on many sides.

[Kurald Galain]

Tarquin's class(es), level, magic items, and so on were gone into extensively in previous editions of this thread, with many good arguments on many sides.

There's been lots of debate, but not so much about his class, really. Depending on whom you ask, he's probably a fighter, or probably a monk, or probably a warblade. But nobody's posted enough evidence to be more certain about this. I'd be happy to hear why alwaysbebatman thinks he's a pure fighter.

[Peelee]

So, I've been looking through this thread, but not finding what I'm curious about. Has there been much speculation about Tarquin's class?

It's been mentioned once or twice.

[unbeliever536]

So, I've been looking through this thread, but not finding what I'm curious about. Has there been much speculation about Tarquin's class? Are we leaving it blank just because it can't be proven definitively? Or is there reason to believe he's not pure fighter?

Reasons to believe he's not pure fighter mostlly center around his actions here and here, specifically (1) the AoO-on-miss he gets on Roy, tossing Belkar and Durkon around, and the stun on Durkon. I remember the existence of a solid argument for Warblade based on those, but not which visuals corresponded with which marital maneuvers. Note that, based on Belkar's statement, Tarquin's protected from the fireball by some sort of immunity or something that looks like it, not by Evasion or a similar ability. His arrow catching habit was ... controversial.

[alwaysbebatman]

I was thinking of pure Fighter just because martial prowess is his focus and most fighter subclasses have some obvious trapping or another that Tarquin does not seem to have.

But if there's a subclass I wasn't aware of that isn't as obvious as a ranger or barbarian, that makes sense, too. Is it just me being old, or is Warblade a little on the obscure side?

I was more just wondering if there was some evidence of multiclassing that I had missed to explain why he is not listed as "Fighter."

Because I think that proving that you can do a lot with a simple fighter build sounds a lot like the way Tarquin thinks. And makes for an intriguing parallel between him and Roy, and an interesting contrast between his outlook and Nale's.

[Kurald Galain]

I was more just wondering if there was some evidence of multiclassing that I had missed to explain why he is not listed as "Fighter."

Well, he never outright says he's a fighter (unlike Roy and Thog, who have stated as much), and there's several other classes that focus on martial prowess. Ultimately it's hard to prove that anyone is a fighter, since everything the fighter can do, can be duplicated with feats.

is Warblade a little on the obscure side?

It's from an official WOTC sourcebook, therefore it's valid for discussion in this thread. Of course, Tarquin never outright says he's a warblade, either

[alwaysbebatman]

Allow me to clarify that I do not mean to say that anything I am arguing meets the standard of proof to be added to Tarquin's entry. I'm more using this as a jumping off point for conversation. I appreciate you letting me know what theories have been proposed in the past.

The Monk one seems particularly unlikely to me. Tarquin is the last person who would go to a hidden monastery to learn their martial secrets and then never brag about it!

"Have I mentioned how I learned to do that in the secret mountain enclave of the K'in D'o'h brotherhood? And then murdered all of the brothers to ensure nobody else would? Oh, I have!"

[Peelee]

Allow me to clarify that I do not mean to say that anything I am arguing meets the standard of proof to be added to Tarquin's entry. I'm more using this as a jumping off point for conversation. I appreciate you letting me know what theories have been proposed in the past.

The Monk one seems particularly unlikely to me. Tarquin is the last person who would go to a hidden monastery to learn their martial secrets and then never brag about it!

"Have I mentioned how I learned to do that in the secret mountain enclave of the K'in D'o'h brotherhood? And then murdered all of the brothers to ensure nobody else would? Oh, I have!"

He knows how to defend himself against many obscure combat techniques. Bragging about them would mean that an obscure technique he hadn't bragged about could defeat him. Best to not orate about that until needed. And after his other fights, there was really no dramatic purpose in bragging about the specific techniques, since he had previously said "many obscure," which is a convenient catch-all for whatever he can and cannot do.

Tarquin's embrace of the dramatic to empower himself is conveniently intertwined with the Giant's desire to not have to nail stuff down anymore so he can play with them without worrying about which specific rules he has to follow.

[alwaysbebatman]

He knows how to defend himself against many obscure combat techniques. Bragging about them would mean that an obscure technique he hadn't bragged about could defeat him. Best to not orate about that until needed. And after his other fights, there was really no dramatic purpose in bragging about the specific techniques, since he had previously said "many obscure," which is a convenient catch-all for whatever he can and cannot do.

Tarquin's embrace of the dramatic to empower himself is conveniently intertwined with the Giant's desire to not have to nail stuff down anymore so he can play with them without worrying about which specific rules he has to follow.

That is a very relevant quote, and I think a good case can be made based on that that Tarquin took a level in more than one fighter subclass along the way. I very much concede that one of those might be Monk.

It sounds a great deal like a Batman/Bruce Lee-esque Fighting Style Synthesis Tour of the World, which would be very cool.

[Peelee]

That is a very relevant quote, and I think a good case can be made based on that that Tarquin took a level in more than one fighter subclass along the way. I very much concede that one of those might be Monk.

It sounds a great deal like a Batman/Bruce Lee-esque Fighting Style Synthesis Tour of the World, which would be very cool.

That really does, now that you mention it. Make me kind of hope that the unknown third prequel book will be around that (though I have my reasons to doubt that it will center around the Vector Legion).

[Syncrogti]

I apologize if this has been discussed, but do we have stats on the cockroaches? I don't mean their 6 stats, I mean how in game do they survive when other more powerful creatures die? Infinite HP? Or regen when below 0hp? instead of death, only unconsciousness? I can see them getting hit with fireballs etc and coming back to consciousness quickly, and just wondered how in game that is possible.

[JumboWheat01]

They're fiendish cockroaches. They don't really die, they just fade back into the fiendish realms, and come back after their bodies reform. Giving how small they are, this takes next to no time.

Plus, they're cockroaches, who survive just about everything.

[alwaysbebatman]

Lead-lined refrigerator:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html

But seriously, do we have any reason to think that they can't be killed? Jirix squishes one as soon as Team Evil leaves.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

Maybe they die all the time, but are as quickly replaced?

ETA: Or what JumboWheat01 said: since they're fiendish, reducing them to 0 hp only dispels them for a while.

[Elkad]

I do believe Mr Scruffy needs an inventory update to reflect his new potion.

[danielxcutter]

I do believe Mr Scruffy needs an inventory update to reflect his new potion.

I think that should be added to Belkar's entry, actually - I don't see Mr. Scruffy with a Bag of Holding himself.

[Peelee]

I think that should be added to Belkar's entry, actually - I don't see Mr. Scruffy with a Bag of Holding himself.

Isn't a Bag of Holding Himself just a really big cat cave?

[unbeliever536]

Isn't a Bag of Holding Himself just a really big cat cave?

Bloodfeast begs to differ.

[GravityEmblem]

Ok, I have to ask...

HOW DID ROY GET 29 STRENGTH?!

Even with 20 base and a +6 (the maximum) Belt of Giant Strength, that's not nearly as much as a Frost Giant! The only way I know that that could happen is that the Giant used a house rule that you can increase your ability scores above 20 before epic level. However, did we not assume that no house rules were used when we created this thread?

[hamishspence]

With a max starting Str of 18 (standard max for humans) and at most 3 points put into it by level 12 (1 pt per 4 levels, starting at level 4) and a +6 belt, that's only 27.

Maybe he read a Manual of Gainful Exercise, like he did in the non-canon Dragon Magazine strips (including a few bonus strips) in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales?

[Peelee]

Either you're bringing 5ed assumptions here, or you're confusing house rules from games you've played in with the absence of house rules.

10 gold on 5e assumptions.

[Ephemera]

I do believe Mr Scruffy needs an inventory update to reflect his new potion.

I thought about suggesting something like that, myself, as well as whatever we think Roy took. However, since in all likelihood we're going to see them quaff most of what they took within a few strips, it seems more prudent just to hold off, especially since it's pretty unlikely we'll be able to prove that they didn't quaff everything they just received during the next combat...

[Doug Lampert]

Ok, I have to ask...

HOW DID ROY GET 29 STRENGTH?!

Even with 20 base and a +6 (the maximum) Belt of Giant Strength, that's not nearly as much as a Frost Giant! The only way I know that that could happen is that the Giant used a house rule that you can increase your ability scores above 20 before epic level. However, did we not assume that no house rules were used when we created this thread?

3.5 rules, no such limit to a 20 base.

10 gold on 5e assumptions.

Yep. That said, 29 is still way on the high side. Start 18, +3 for levels, +6 enhancement would give 27, not 29.

But AFAIK the "evidence" for Roy being 29 strength is that that is the strength of a generic Frost Giant, and Roy says "She's as strong as I am" when explaining why he can't just throw her over the side.

There's no reason to think he's memorized the MM and the exact strength of frost giants, or that he's done a detailed strength comparison. The key point is, he's not enough stronger than she is to simply overpower her, and that holds even if he's a few points weaker.

Additionally, as she's one of her tribe's strongest warriors, we have every reason to think that she may be leveled (with ability increases) or built with the elite array rather than standard array, and thus that the Furkini menace may well have been more than 29 strength herself.