Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[D.One]

Debate about Quicken Rising spell aside, I don't really think these former dwarves being Vampires or Vampire Spawns won't be an issue, if it gets addressed at all.

I believe they won't be a major obstacle, but will present a threat big enough to slow the Order down and buy Greg&Co more time to their plans. Their creature entry won't probably matter.

That said, i believe Greg would Quicken Rise as many as he could, and it would be reasonable to suppose Brother Sandstone became a vampire, not a spawn, because he was blood-drained, not energy-drained.

[D.One]

Why are we treating Greg (Durkon*)'s mental atributes as somehow independent from Durkon's?

[Chei]

Why are we treating Greg (Durkon*)'s mental atributes as somehow independent from Durkon's?

If by that you mean "Why is Greg's WIS not set as 19+, being Durkon's minimum 17 with a vampire's +2 bonus", then I dunno. I think some people prefer to use spells cast on-panel to determine the minimum casting attribute.

[Jasdoif]

If by that you mean "Why is Greg's WIS not set as 19+, being Durkon's minimum 17 with a vampire's +2 bonus", then I dunno. I think some people prefer to use spells cast on-panel to determine the minimum casting attribute.

It's probably more that HPoH is a separate entity from Durkon, which isn't something specified in core 3.5; The few example vampires I recall in later Monster Manuals are of the "still the same person" mindset variety. Most "your mind in another creature" effects have you keep your mental ability scores while using your host's physical ability scores, so it's not indisputably clear that OOTS vampires use adjusted mental ability scores of the host.

I think.

[Chei]

It's probably more that HPoH is a separate entity from Durkon, which isn't something specified in core 3.5; The few example vampires I recall in later Monster Manuals are of the "still the same person" mindset variety. Most "your mind in another creature" effects have you keep your mental ability scores while using your host's physical ability scores, so it's not indisputably clear that OOTS vampires use adjusted mental ability scores of the host.

I think.

I guess I kind of see the point there. Alternately, since the vampire spirit is divinely crafted using the host as a template, it seems to me that they should be able to piggyback on the host's mental faculties. How else would vampire wizards retain class levels? Or clerics, for that matter? It'd be useless for the spirit to not be at least as intelligent/willful as their host.

Given that Durkon* is a spellcaster and the arc villain, I expect we'll see him bumped up to 17+ before the end of the book, but honestly, it's always going to bother me.

[knag]

V is 17th level as of 1102! 34 hour forcecage!

(Although they just got level drained so I guess back to level 16 for the moment...)

[D.One]

V is 17th level as of 1102! 34 hour forcecage!

(Although they just got level drained so I guess back to level 16 for the moment...)

Ninja'ed!

As a matter of fact, V didn't become level 16 because of the level drain, as much as he/she takes a –1 penalty on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, and loses 5 hit points and one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each negative level. Also, V loses one prepared spell of the highest level of spells he/she can cast (for each negative level? That part is not clear to me).

[D.One]

Thus, V lost one or two 9th level spells, and is probably out of them.

[D.One]

Not level 17. Ioun stone grants +1 caster level, remember? Established level 16.

(This post will expire 8 hours, 25 minutes after it is posted.)

That's right. I had forgotten about the Ioun stone.

So, that means V lost 1 or 2 out of his/her 3 8th level spells prepared (including evocation extra slot)

[knag]

Not level 17. Ioun stone grants +1 caster level, remember? Established level 16.

(This post will expire 8 hours, 25 minutes after it is posted.)

Nuts. I forgot about Blackwing's stone. Oh well.

[littlebum2002]

Not level 17. Ioun stone grants +1 caster level, remember? Established level 16.

(This post will expire 8 hours, 25 minutes after it is posted.)

That being said, we can still change the link supporting V being level 16 from the complicated math post that was used before to your simple explanation instead.

[Quartz]

Not level 17. Ioun stone grants +1 caster level, remember? Established level 16.

The stone belongs to Blackwing, not V. Further the stone is not orbiting anyone, which it needs to be to take effect. So on two counts V is definitely 17th level.

[Quartz]

Now, what can the new cleric do to help V recover that negative level? Can Haley do anything?

[knag]

The stone belongs to Blackwing, not V. Further the stone is not orbiting anyone, which it needs to be to take effect. So on two counts V is definitely 17th level.

Negative. Check out #967. The Gnome Artificer crafted the Ioun Stone into a bracelet which Blackwing wears and it grants the bonus to V as long as Blackwing is close enough.

[Chei]

Now, what can the new cleric do to help V recover that negative level? Can Haley do anything?

If Minrah can cast 4th-level spells, and has Restoration prepared, she can remove the negative level. Nothing will bring back the spell V lost, though. One of their level 8's.

[Jasdoif]

If Minrah can cast 4th-level spells, and has Restoration prepared, she can remove the negative level.

On the more hypothetical end, if Vaarsuvius has limited wish prepared, it could be used to duplicate the effect of restoration (conveniently 4th-level is the upper limit for "duplicate a non-wizard spell of a prohibited school").

[zimmerwald1915]

Now, what can the new cleric do to help V recover that negative level? Can Haley do anything?

Restoration can be put into a wand.

But I suspect Vaarsuvius will have to endure this leg of the adventure with a negative level.

[Chei]

On the more hypothetical end, if Vaarsuvius has limited wish prepared, it could be used to duplicate the effect of restoration (conveniently 4th-level is the upper limit for "duplicate a non-wizard spell of a prohibited school").

Hm. I don't think that tactic is viable until one person has quite a lot of negative levels stacked on them, given that it's a single-target that removes all the negative levels on one person. Yet, if V tries to save it, they may end up losing that slot before it even becomes worth using!

Maybe the best tactic is for Roy to tank all the hits and then cure himself with his sword. I wonder if the vampires will want to spread the negative levels out, or try dogpiling just one or two people.

[Quild]

The stone belongs to Blackwing, not V. Further the stone is not orbiting anyone, which it needs to be to take effect. So on two counts V is definitely 17th level.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html

Edit: Oops, late to the game.


So except if a negative level retroactively reduces the duration of a spell already cast, V would still be level 16.

[Chronos]

Um, what happened to the post by Kish that everyone is quoting? How does one make a post that expires after posting?

And yeah, simple straightforward evidence for level is better than complicated math.

[Quild]

Um, what happened to the post by Kish that everyone is quoting? How does one make a post that expires after posting?

Manually deleting it? :D

[zimmerwald1915]

Um, what happened to the post by Kish that everyone is quoting? How does one make a post that expires after posting?

And yeah, simple straightforward evidence for level is better than complicated math.

The current link is hardly to "complicated math." It's just counting. And even if the reference in V's statblock is changed to strip 1102, the reference in the table of level-up history should remain to strip 935, as the earliest demonstration of her having leveled to 16.

[littlebum2002]

The current link is hardly to "complicated math." It's just counting.

This is correct, but still, "34/2-1" is simpler.

And even if the reference in V's statblock is changed to strip 1102, the reference in the table of level-up history should remain to strip 935, as the earliest demonstration of her having leveled to 16.

Good point

[Peelee]

This is correct, but still, "34/2-1" is simpler.

(34/2)-1. I know it's not necessary, but like parentheses in my math.

[Quartz]

Negative. Check out #967. The Gnome Artificer crafted the Ioun Stone into a bracelet which Blackwing wears and it grants the bonus to V as long as Blackwing is close enough.

I stand corrected.

[Yendor]

If Minrah can cast 4th-level spells, and has Restoration prepared, she can remove the negative level.

Highly unlikely, given that she's an acolyte and "not the best caster".

On V, there should be some note of the +1 to caster level.

[Quartz]

On the more hypothetical end, if Vaarsuvius has limited wish prepared, it could be used to duplicate the effect of restoration (conveniently 4th-level is the upper limit for "duplicate a non-wizard spell of a prohibited school").

I like this.

[Chei]

Highly unlikely, given that she's an acolyte and "not the best caster".

On V, there should be some note of the +1 to caster level.

Yeah, I know it's unlikely, hence the qualification. I'd say it's more likely than V casting a Limited Wish spell for the restoration, or at least equally unlikely. Haley having a Restoration wand, as suggested above, actually seems like the most likely result, even though 4th-level wands are prohibitively expensive.

[Coat]

If that's a full vampire, it drains two levels with a slam attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)

If it's a spawn, it only drains one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/v...m#vampireSpawn)

V casts the Force Cage before the vampire gets the slam attack in, so the caster level of the Force Cage is unmodified by the level drain effect.

[D.One]

If that's a full vampire, it drains two levels with a slam attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)

If it's a spawn, it only drains one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/v...m#vampireSpawn)

V casts the Force Cage before the vampire gets the slam attack in, so the caster level of the Force Cage is unmodified by the level drain effect.

Given he was taken down with one strike, and given that he probably was a low level guard, I'd go with spawn. That said, this is just my opinion.