Superhero Management Sim Game

[The Glyphstone]

While it is true that you learn more from failure than success, I'd be leery of what that would do to verisimilitude/game balance. It doesn't feel right if the quickest way to make your heroes grow stronger is to deliberately set them up for disaster, rather than play the minigame of correctly matching skill sets to threats and enemies.

As far as stuff like research/forensics goes, preferentially they could just join the assortment of traits and threats - [Investigator] countering [Mysterious], as a random example. Alternatively, 'research' becomes a separate management element of the game, similar to X-Com, that lets you improve and upgrade your roster/base/etc.

[Lacuna Caster]

While it is true that you learn more from failure than success, I'd be leery of what that would do to verisimilitude/game balance. It doesn't feel right if the quickest way to make your heroes grow stronger is to deliberately set them up for disaster, rather than play the minigame of correctly matching skill sets to threats and enemies.

As far as stuff like research/forensics goes, preferentially they could just join the assortment of traits and threats - [Investigator] countering [Mysterious], as a random example. Alternatively, 'research' becomes a separate management element of the game, similar to X-Com, that lets you improve and upgrade your roster/base/etc.

Yeah, you could model research/forensics (at least for UI purposes) as recurring/long-term 'plots', and perform the same allocation of talent that you'd use for more acute crises.

I'm honestly not too worried about players setting up their PCs to lose- between injury, fatigue & permadeath, resource starvation or even game-over from crimewaves, there's no shortage of potential disincentives for failure. Training/tuition would be the safer option by far.

[LibraryOgre]

That sounds rather interesting... but going by reviews the main game sounds like a rather pay-to-win experience. Is it worth it?

I have been playing for months and haven't paid a cent. The puchaseable currency, Chromium, is pretty available in-game for free, and while not paying means more grinding if you want to complete a bunch of armory items, but you can play through the story without it... at least, as far as I've gotten.

[TeChameleon]

Hrm... I do think that an X-Com-style tactical/management split, or maybe something like what Mark mentioned with Star Wars: Uprising would work better just for having a broader potential audience; as far as I know, pure-stat management sims are a bit of a niche market. Well, that and Superheroes are all about the spectacle; you don't put on brightly-coloured spandex (or dress like a motorcycle gang/leather fetishist gang, I guess... or dress in colours that should be bright but have been run repeatedly through a brown filter until they screamed for mercy...) to not be seen... unless you're Batman, I guess. But he can get away with that, because he's Batman

Speaking of Batman, as fond as I am of the Caped Crusader, a Batfamily super-sim (of whatever variety) seems a bit odd to me- a major part of the appeal of superheroes is the 'super' aspect of things, and no matter how good they may look in capes, superpowers have never been a major aspect of the Batfamily. That works for them, of course, but if you're going for Brand X supers, I don't see much point in not rolling with actual powers- maybe just go with the Astro City model; while you can look at the various Astro City characters and say 'right, these are based on the Fantastic Four' (the Furst Family) or 'hey, it's Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman' (Samaritan, Winged Victory, and the Confessor), they're... not. Aside from some loose thematic ties, they share little in common with their predecessors.

And since you're not beholden to the Justice League model, you really don't need to balance 'alien demi-god, other alien demi-god, actual goddess, infinite speed-speedster, concussed idiot wielding the most powerful weapon in the universe, super-King Arthur riding Cthulhu, and vaguely-ninja-ish normal(... again, -ish) guy that throws bat-shaped things at people'.

[spectralphoenix]

This actually sounds a bit like a web game with an idle component to me. You'd log on, do some missions, set everybody to train/gather intel/recover for a few hours, then log on later to reap the rewards.

[Lacuna Caster]

Your arguments are compelling, TC. But I do love me management sims and am instantly suspicious of appeals to popularity, so I'm torn. Basically, I need you, Kitten Champion, and maybe Glyphstone to fight to the death.**

Alternatively, we could maybe wait until the engine is in a more mature state and then think about adding some TBT or metahumans... if somebody will commit to playtesting.*

The Bruce & Terry idea was more with respect to a Hanako-style raising-sim - you've hit a retirement age (or maybe you're like Barbra Gordon and have been paralyzed/otherwise de-powered) and choose to raise a prospective successor to take your place. The game would about the decisions you make with regards to their lessons and the equipment you choose to provide them with - with various bad-ends you need to avoid and various conclusions to what type the end up hero (if any) they choose to become.

Oh, of-the-which-speaking, I finally got to playing LLTQ and I was just squeeing because of all of the skillz. I particularly like the way that emotion-levels feed into training efficiency, which I'm sure would have some useful applications in spandex soap-opera.

Anyway, I basically agree with all the rest of your post.

* (If it helps, I was thinking of eventually throwing in katana, zatanna and etrigan.)

** EDIT: It's late, but it just occurred to me this might be interpreted as a sign of annoyance rather than flippant black humour. It's the latter, honest!

[TeChameleon]

Your arguments are compelling, TC. But I do love me management sims and am instantly suspicious of appeals to popularity, so I'm torn. Basically, I need you, Kitten Champion, and maybe Glyphstone to fight to the death.**

Alternatively, we could maybe wait until the engine is in a more mature state and then think about adding some TBT or metahumans... if somebody will commit to playtesting.*

Oh, of-the-which-speaking, I finally got to playing LLTQ and I was just squeeing because of all of the skillz. I particularly like the way that emotion-levels feed into training efficiency, which I'm sure would have some useful applications in spandex soap-opera.

Anyway, I basically agree with all the rest of your post.

* (If it helps, I was thinking of eventually throwing in katana, zatanna and etrigan.)

** EDIT: It's late, but it just occurred to me this might be interpreted as a sign of annoyance rather than flippant black humour. It's the latter, honest!

... okay, I choose gravity at twenty paces. Next to a cliff. With me being the one facing away from it

Also, if by 'Management Sim' you mean something like LLTQ, then I withdraw my earlier comments; I was thinking something more along the lines of one of those sports management sims where most of the interface is composed of graphs and numbers, and the entirety of the game is making those numbers go up or down >.>

Speaking of LLTQ, a glance at the wikipedia page has it striking me as being oddly similar to that old... Princess Maker, I think it was..? game. Odd to see such a quirky concept resurfacing.

I'm not sure about playtesting- I'm not confident enough in my computer skills to attempt to run the... whatever it was... that you mentioned. If it's easier than it sounds, I might be able to take a stab at it.

Etrigan strikes me as a very, very odd one to throw in there; I know that he's had some ties to Batman in the past thanks to operating out of Gotham, but he's a bruiser that can throw down with some of the top-tier powerhouses in the DCU- even Darkseid steps cautiously around him (at least as much as he does around anyone). Could lead to balance issues is all I'm really saying- ditto Zatanna, for that matter, given that her power is basically 'do anything she can say backwards'.

Don't forget that the Ragman and Sentinel/OG Green Lantern (Alan Scott) also call Gotham home, if you're wanting more powered characters to play around with that have a tie back to the main cast.

... that being said, how are you planning on building the characters? Just make Batman etc. and file off the serial numbers once you've gotten the game engine down, or..?

[The Glyphstone]

I suppose using gadgets/Bat-Family with the serial numbers filed off could work as a baseline playtest for the game engine.

Reading up on LLTQ, I can see some similarities, but at least in my vision, we're managing a team, not one specific character, so there's still a lot of divergence.

[Lacuna Caster]

Also, if by 'Management Sim' you mean something like LLTQ, then I withdraw my earlier comments; I was thinking something more along the lines of one of those sports management sims where most of the interface is composed of graphs and numbers, and the entirety of the game is making those numbers go up or down >.>

Wait! These games exist?!?

*disappears forever*

Speaking of LLTQ, a glance at the wikipedia page has it striking me as being oddly similar to that old... Princess Maker, I think it was..? game. Odd to see such a quirky concept resurfacing.

I'm not sure about playtesting- I'm not confident enough in my computer skills to attempt to run the... whatever it was... that you mentioned. If it's easier than it sounds, I might be able to take a stab at it.

Oh, the game itself is just a .jar file. As long as you have the JRE installed, it should just be double-click and go.

Etrigan is a powerhouse alright, but the tradeoff is that chucking him into the mix risks horrendous collateral damage. He'd be the Hyde to jason blood's Jekyll, more or less- sort of a reflective extension of Batman's anger management. (I'm trying to pick out allies/companions that mirror pieces of his psyche or MO in the same way the villains do.)

My own plan would be Batman & Co. until the engine is down (since that lets me scrounge pretty art on the cheap), rebalance as needed, then file off the serial numbers and/or tinker with extra content or features. (e.g, the justice league or turn-based-tactical-noggin-bashing.)

I suppose using gadgets/Bat-Family with the serial numbers filed off could work as a baseline playtest for the game engine.

Reading up on LLTQ, I can see some similarities, but at least in my vision, we're managing a team, not one specific character, so there's still a lot of divergence.

The aspects I'd most like to borrow from LLTQ are the diversity of skill-sets (or possibly traits/tags) that handle both combat, magic and logistic/social problems, plus the off-hours training system. (e.g, do I send the young Ms. Cain to the fairgrounds and help her relax into civilian life, or do I upgrade the gymnasium and minmax her already scary reflexes?)

You'd probably need a smaller per-person skill-set so that the numbers aren't too hard to juggle, but in principle this can be done for a whole cast of wards & hangers-on.

[Grif]

Wait! These games exist?!?

*disappears forever*

Of course they do. And surprisingly addictive too, once you get over the numbers.

Don't you love them numbers?

Spoiler

Show

This was my initial thought when you mooted the superhero management sim, actually.

[The Glyphstone]

Wow, that's about as polar-opposite as you could get from my original vision. I'd pictured something like the garrison-follower minigame out of the latest Warcraft expansion, but with enough time and effort to actually be interesting.

[Lacuna Caster]

Never played WoW, actually. Explain?

This was my initial thought when you mooted the superhero management sim, actually.

I do love them numbers.

[The Glyphstone]

Never played WoW, actually. Explain?


I do love them numbers.

Essentially, the trait-threat thing I described earlier. You collected or hired followers, who were represented as a character with a level,1-2 Abilities, and 1-3 Traits. Abilities would be things like Powerful Smash or Homing Arrow, that would counter things like Tough or Stealthy. Traits were the same for smaller bonuses, things like Jungle Fighter vs. Jungle terrain, Orc Fighter if the enemy type was Orc, or Elf Lover if the other minion on the mission was an Elf. Success earned you a mission reward and experience points for the minions you sent, failure only earned your followers like 1/5 the reward XP. Higher-level followers gained additional randomly generated Abilities and Traits, and could perform higher-level missions for bigger rewards.

It wasn't particularly fleshed out, interesting, or popular, but the basic concept seemed like it could be developed into an actual game in its own right instead of a half-baked appendage to an MMO.

[Lacuna Caster]

It wasn't particularly fleshed out, interesting, or popular, but the basic concept seemed like it could be developed into an actual game in its own right instead of a half-baked appendage to an MMO.

What would the polar opposition to what Grif is describing? Are we just talking about having fewer stats, or some differences in visual presentation?

At the moment, I'm thinking you could make the game work with 4 basic stats or competencies- intellect, evasion, social and combat. (You could break this down into finer specialties like engineering, medicine, intimidation or disguise, or possibly have certain action-types use an average of different stats.)

The main scene-types would include-
* Investment projects
* Research projects
* Social events
* Forensic analysis
* Study & training
* Tipoffs & headlines
* Surveillance & break-ins
* Combat & pursuit
* Interrogation
* Care & recuperation

For the rock-paper-scissors or tag-matchup system, I've got a couple of tags here, which could probably use some fleshing out...
Gunfire <=> Smoke Bombs, Body Armor
Bruiser <=> Evasion, Body Armour
Sonics <=> Darkness, Stealth
Daylight <=> Disguise, Day Camo

The Question would get a special bonus to forensics, research & disguise, Huntress would specialise in intimidation and the occasional execution, Canary in sonics and mentoring, Alfred in recuperation and social events, et cetera.

So... is that miles apart from what you were imagining?

[The Glyphstone]

Grif was initially imagining the sports-sim with like twenty different numerical stats, presumably making everything math and percentage-based. That's the 'polar opposite' of my original vision, not the ideas he was proposing here. I like the idea of 4 stats or so, that feels about right. Tags/Traits could be situational bonuses; not necessary, but if you get an advantageous tag pairing, it'll be a success chance bonus.

[TeChameleon]

Etrigan is a powerhouse alright, but the tradeoff is that chucking him into the mix risks horrendous collateral damage. He'd be the Hyde to jason blood's Jekyll, more or less- sort of a reflective extension of Batman's anger management. (I'm trying to pick out allies/companions that mirror pieces of his psyche or MO in the same way the villains do.)

I see what you're going for there, although I'm not sure that Etrigan is an ideal counterpart for that aspect- or rather, that Jason Blood is. There's more of a redemption angle going for him than Bruce is ever likely to experience, since part of the reasoning behind the Batman persona is to keep him from ever crossing that kind of line. That being said, I kind of like it thematically, and I doubt most people are going to nitpick it as deeply as I am- I suspect that the average response is going to be either 'oh yeah, this is that guy that showed up on Batman: TAS' or 'oh yeah, that's right, Jason Blood works out of Gotham' (depending on levels of nerdiness ).

Depending on how you want to run things, my expectation would be that Etrigan would become an option when seriously nasty stuff is going down- basically some equivalent of a hero-unit that is given for the duration of a mission/map/whatever that you can't normally get otherwise, although you might get a percentage-based chance of him popping out if you called Jason Blood in to consult on a maybe-mystical case.

The aspects I'd most like to borrow from LLTQ are the diversity of skill-sets (or possibly traits/tags) that handle both combat, magic and logistic/social problems, plus the off-hours training system. (e.g, do I send the young Ms. Cain to the fairgrounds and help her relax into civilian life, or do I upgrade the gymnasium and minmax her already scary reflexes?)

You'd probably need a smaller per-person skill-set so that the numbers aren't too hard to juggle, but in principle this can be done for a whole cast of wards & hangers-on.

As a semi-random aside, I assume that this kind of choice would mean that there would be inter-NPC relationship values as well? If you dumped Cassandra Cain in the gym and gave her no life outside of it and crimefighting, then Oracle would get rather aggravated with you, for example.

[Lacuna Caster]

Depending on how you want to run things, my expectation would be that Etrigan would become an option when seriously nasty stuff is going down- basically some equivalent of a hero-unit that is given for the duration of a mission/map/whatever that you can't normally get otherwise, although you might get a percentage-based chance of him popping out if you called Jason Blood in to consult on a maybe-mystical case.

That makes sense to me. (It'd be nice to model stress or affect-levels such that Jason getting sufficiently angry/desperate triggers his OVER 9000!!! moment, but I'd have to see about that later.)

As a semi-random aside, I assume that this kind of choice would mean that there would be inter-NPC relationship values as well? If you dumped Cassandra Cain in the gym and gave her no life outside of it and crimefighting, then Oracle would get rather aggravated with you, for example.

I'd definitely like some relationship-simulation between the various bat-crew members, but if you mean bonding with random civvies, then... I hadn't thought of that. I do like the sound of it, though.

Oh, not to nag, but did that .jar file run for either yourself or Glyphstone? (I've had problems with other folks running java games before, so if I need to package things differently it'd be nice to know.)

[The Glyphstone]

That makes sense to me. (It'd be nice to model stress or affect-levels such that Jason getting sufficiently angry/desperate triggers his OVER 9000!!! moment, but I'd have to see about that later.)


I'd definitely like some relationship-simulation between the various bat-crew members, but if you mean bonding with random civvies, then... I hadn't thought of that. I do like the sound of it, though.

Oh, not to nag, but did that .jar file run for either yourself or Glyphstone? (I've had problems with other folks running java games before, so if I need to package things differently it'd be nice to know.)

Downloaded it, played it for a bit. Definitely an excellent start.

As far as code to change, rather than simply stuff NYI - there needs to be some sort of flag on captive/unconscious enemies that makes them no longer block movement in the tactical combat mode. I had Superman and Wonderwoman both taken down by a single mobster with a machine gun because they got swarmed under with baseball-bat wielding thugs, and were surrounded by bodies pinning them in place.

[gooddragon1]

Isn't that his canon background in at least a few continuities? An ex-SAS agent who now works for the Waynes as a butler and manservant?

I don't recall Alfred ever giving Bruce any sass...

[LibraryOgre]

So, to expand on Uprising a bit:

Your basic crew member has 4 stats: Tier, Level, Background and Preference. Tier determines their maximum level; different characters start at different tiers, and you can only improve your tier twice. Level determines your raw ability. Background and Preferences are two different factors that help to determine if you're right for a mission.

The Backgrounds are
Diplomatic
Imperial
Criminal
Warfare
Technical

The Preferences are
Offensive
Defensive
Stealth
Espionage

Your basic crew only has these. So, I have a "Staff Cook". He started as a Tier 2, Level 1. He is now a Tier 3, Level 30. He will always be Warfare and Espionage... the idea is he signs on as a military cook and feeds information out based on scuttlebutt. If I want to update him, I have to have certain material requirements (Crystals appropriate to his Preference, Credits to pay for the change, and certain items improve to the point where I have "blueprints" for a weapon of that type of that Tier); that would let him become a Tier 4, level 31, and capable of improving to Level 45. At that point, a Staff Cook is stuck, because you can only improve two tiers.

Now, there are also some special/unique characters. The first crew member you get is Tryken, who starts as a Tier 2, Level 1, Offensive Criminal. But, because he is unique, he has a special skill: When a run is a "Gear Finder" run, he gets an extra bonus. Others get bonuses on "Material Finder" or "Crystal Finder" runs, or when paired with specific Backgrounds or Preferences; I currently have one character who gets a Bonus on "XP finder" runs AND when used in "Battle Missions", while another gets a bonus whenever on Material Finder runs AND gives an extra bonus to any Imperial characters.

My goal is to build my runs to be as successful as possible. Some runs are Dangerous, and if I fail at those runs, I may lose characters (normal people, like the Staff Cook, will simply die; special characters, like Tryken, will be captured, and it will take a separate run to free them). Normal runs don't have much more than an opportunity cost for failure... those dangerous runs not only cost me some form of game currency to undertake (be it credits, chits for the various factions, or whatever), but a dangerous failed run can cost me characters.

The game also has a limit on the number of characters you can have in your crew (expandable by spending Chromium, the purchaseable in-game currency). If you exceed that limit, you can either buy more storage OR retire some characters who have reached their useful limit, getting a bit of cash for them.

[Lacuna Caster]

Downloaded it, played it for a bit. Definitely an excellent start.

As far as code to change, rather than simply stuff NYI - there needs to be some sort of flag on captive/unconscious enemies that makes them no longer block movement in the tactical combat mode. I had Superman and Wonderwoman both taken down by a single mobster with a machine gun because they got swarmed under with baseball-bat wielding thugs, and were surrounded by bodies pinning them in place.

Thanks- I'll take a look, but I should mention that the entire turn-based-tactical mission mechanic has been... uh, disconnected, I suppose would be the best word, so I'll have to patch that for an older branch of the code.

[The Glyphstone]

If it's not in the current build, don't worry about it. Though playing that sample did a lot to sell me on the tactical combat element in general.

[TeChameleon]

I don't recall Alfred ever giving Bruce any sass...

Really? You don't?

Haven't been able to download it yet (not a technical problem, just a real-life-interfering problem), sorry Lacuna :/

Although I do hold that the original idea was a good one- there's a reason that X-Com is widely regarded as a classic, after all (even with the kick-you-in-the-nuts-so-hard-your-testes-shoot-out-your-nose difficulty of the original sequel, Terror from the Deep... good times ) Being able to do that with the JLA would be pretty cool.

[Lacuna Caster]

If it's not in the current build, don't worry about it. Though playing that sample did a lot to sell me on the tactical combat element in general.

Good to know. It's not a difficult fix in any case, so I just patched it on a separate branch.

Haven't been able to download it yet (not a technical problem, just a real-life-interfering problem), sorry Lacuna :/

Whenever you get the chance, TC. I just need to know if it's working.

I *might* have a fresh build at some point over the weekend, and if that doesn't explode or cause cancer, and no-one else objects, I might think about plugging in the turn-based tactical again. Will see.

[Lacuna Caster]

Coding update: Progress has been okay so far, but no public release yet. (Combination of real-life events and fire emblem.) On the plus side, I'm *reasonably* sure it won't explode or cause cancer.

@Mark Hall: I appreciate all the detail on Uprising. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a mobile device with a proper screen & data plan at the moment (out of the country), so it might be a while before I can give it a whirl. :/

[TeChameleon]

So, managed to drag my sorry carcass to my computer and get things running- looks pretty good thus far, and runs impressively smoothly, although the League feels rather squishy. Also felt a bit lost as to exactly what was going on at first, but things are, by and large, intuitive enough not to leave me completely floundering, which is kind of nice.

Definitely looks like something that's going to trigger my 'WANT' buttons when it's finished

[Lacuna Caster]

Thanks TC. I appreciate all the feedback.

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay, so what do I have at the moment?
* Randomly-generated crimes in various city districts, with leads and scenes and persons of interest. (Well, just kidnappings atm... I need to add more.)
* Basic crafting/equipping of items & outfits.
* Assignment to different forms of training, with some first-pass XP and relationship bonuses.

I uh... kinda went nuts about the skill-set. I might trim it down a bit later, or rephrase it in terms of perks/traits (e.g. marksman/skilled marksman/expert marksman), but at the moment I've got about 20 trainable skills, which should allow for matching up personnel against particular missions or sub-tasks. (Plus a bunch of items which modify those.)

Intellectual & Social: Engineering, Informatics, Pharmacy, Anatomy, Law & Finance, The Occult, Disguise, Languages, Suasion, Question.
Combat & Ops: Stealth, Surveillance, Vehicles, Intimidate, Marksman, Close Combat, Gymnastics, Stamina.




On the subject of Turn-Based-Tactical mechanics- I'm about 80% confident that I'll want to include these in some form or other, but I'm a little worried that doing so will actually make incorporating flying bricks more difficult. As I was saying to TC earlier, one of the problems I ran into when developing the earlier build was that, even when Batman has very high dodge/parry, it's difficult to make things physically challenging for, say, Wonder Woman without the eventual certainty of Bats or Robin taking a bullet to the nuts.

(He also suggested giving Batman better stealth & cover mechanics, and I would indeed love to work on those. However that's essentially another way of boosting those dodge-percentages vs. headshots. If it's 100%, Batman is invincible. If it's 99% or less, Batman is eventually dead.)

So as I see it, there's a couple of viable options:

* Handle the differences between Bats/Arrow & WW/Cap Atom on a fairly abstract, strategic level, so they're easier to gloss over. (e.g, Cap Atom has the 'flight' and 'invulnerable' traits, send him to deal with the alien juggernaut, Bats has the 'sneaky' and 'detective' traits, send him to extract intel from a military base.)

* Make sure that Bats/Arrow have at least, say, 25% of the hit points that WW/Cap Atom do, which basically requires iron-man level body armour and/or stealth tech. (And/or use Luck mechanics, but that's another kettle of fish.)

I'll probably squeeze out a public build over the weekend, and then I'll see what folks think.

[spectralphoenix]

Maybe you could take some of the luck out of things by giving Batman something like the deflect Arrows feat, where he automatically dodges the first attack each round? He would actually be better than Superman at taking out one enemy at a time, since he couldn't get hit while Supes would get ground down after taking chip damage each time.

Superman, meanwhile, could have some kind of "Willpower" mechanic where he can become truly invincible (or close to) for a few rounds, but only a few times per mission. Possibly combine it with a taunt effect or some kind of AoE damage so he can either take out a roomful of thugs or cover for the other members while they all take down a roomful of thugs. So his area of expertise would be arranging big fights where those few rounds of extra superness can be used to best effect.

I think ideally, the result would be that Superman is great at leading big heroic charges against swarms of badguys, but can get tired out if the fight drags on and he has to hunt down every last baddie. Batman prefers to take down enemies one by one with stealth and efficiency, but turns into a red smear on the wall if he tries to charge into a hail of assault rifle bullets.

[Lacuna Caster]

*Nods head* ...Maybe. I'd feel a little more comfortable waiting until tech-research into armour and gizmos levels the playing field a bit before introducing the hyperbeings, but in principle what you're describing could work. (There's actually something similar in X-Com, between the 'lightning reflexes' perk and 'combat stims' item.)