Hearthstone 16: Ia Ia! C'thun Fhtagn!

[Temotei]

I've been running into a lot of players who when in a losing position, play a bunch of cards that don't help unless they have multiple of the non-class quests that benefit from those things at the same time, then rope, pass at the last second and concede immediately after passing.

It's the rope, pass, concede thing that really gets to me, though. "Not letting it get to me" isn't working, and hasn't as a strategy.

I like to browse the interwebs while people rope.

[gomipile]

I like to browse the interwebs while people rope.

I do too, but it's the pass, concede part that messes with me most. Passing gets me thinking about what to do to win, since I like to finish them off quickly rather than faffing about like a lot of people do. And in the midst of that thought, usually when I'm reaching to attack with a minion or whatever, I lose control of my character because they ended the game without me expecting it in that moment. It creates an actually painful cognitive disconnect for me, and I haven't been able to "get over it."

[flat_footed]

I play on mobile, so I watch TV at the same time usually. Them roping has never bugged me, since I'm paying attention elsewhere.

[gomipile]

I play on mobile, so I watch TV at the same time usually. Them roping has never bugged me, since I'm paying attention elsewhere.

Like I said, it's the "pass->concede" part of it that causes me pain. The roping before only adds a little to it.

[Destro_Yersul]

Going Imp -> Succubus might be good, actually, since it mitigates the drawback of the 2 mana 4/3.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Going Imp -> Succubus might be good, actually, since it mitigates the drawback of the 2 mana 4/3.

The main problem I've seen pointed out with Imp -> Succubus is that if you don't have Imp, Succubus is not all that good. Darkshire Librarian is better to curve into, because at least she doesn't cost you a card.

[Zevox]

The main problem I've seen pointed out with Imp -> Succubus is that if you don't have Imp, Succubus is not all that good. Darkshire Librarian is better to curve into, because at least she doesn't cost you a card.

That, and a 2 mana 4/3 isn't actually that great, since it still just trades with a lot of 2-drops, 3/2 being a common statline and all. Or 3 damage for 2 spells being a thing, like Wrath, Frostbolt, Quick Shot - or Firey War Axe, in the weapons category.

[heretic]

I think the missing piece to the Imp/discard deck is another Fist of Jaraxxus-like card.

Something equivalent to "Madness" from MTG.

[Joran]

That, and a 2 mana 4/3 isn't actually that great, since it still just trades with a lot of 2-drops, 3/2 being a common statline and all. Or 3 damage for 2 spells being a thing, like Wrath, Frostbolt, Quick Shot - or Firey War Axe, in the weapons category.

Agreed, 4/3 for 2 is not good enough. Wrathguard is still in Standard and does not see much play in Zoo.

[boomwolf]

That's because wrathguard risks shield slam instagib.

Can't see much value in the book either.
The only real value of the cabalist tome to begin with is the fact it virtually increases your deck size.
This does not, you spend one spot for one random spell. No real gain involved.

[Rodin]

That's because wrathguard risks shield slam instagib.

Can't see much value in the book either.
The only real value of the cabalist tome to begin with is the fact it virtually increases your deck size.
This does not, you spend one spot for one random spell. No real gain involved.

Agreed - if you really think about it, you're replacing a spell you choose with a random spell, then adding a 1 mana 1/1 to your deck. I don't think the tradeoff is worth it, even in Reno. It can't even replace cards like Novice Engineer, because it isn't digging you further into your deck.

The only time it gets kinda good is if your opponent wants to play a 3/2 minion and you're playing a grindy mage - that way you can trade into it and ping without blowing a spell on a 2-mana minion.

Book Wyrm looks pretty exciting for Dragon decks, it's basically an in-theme Stampeding Kodo. It might not make it into Dragon Warrior since by turn 6 they're heading into their endgame, but slower Dragon decks will love this card.

[Destro_Yersul]

I think the book is good for reasons of curve and Reno, but I don't think it's OP or anything. The power creep is not real.

Also, it occured to me that Fiery Win Axe is another reason for Succubus to suck, even with the imp. Anyways.

Moroes is interesting! 3 mana 1/1 with Stealth that summons 1/1 stewards at the end of each turn. Pretty much any board clear kills him, so I don't think he's that good, but I like the design. Book Wyrm I think IS good, since Dragon Decks are kind of a thing and the Curator will let you fish for dragons. Drawing a guaranteed activator is another use for him that I hadn't really considered.

[boomwolf]

Turn 6 for the wyrm just feels too late for the effect to matter. not many 3-attack minions matter any more against anything turn 6.

Moroes seems like a gimmik play. doubt he will pay off as the tempo loss is rather big, and while the long-term effect is useful, its hardly overwhelming and takes too long to pay off, not to mention rather easy to get rid of with mere 1 HP. most decks have some sort of 1-damage AoE (or bigger) and/or random missile effects.

[Spore]

Moroes niche is incredibly thin. It's only worthwhile in Steward Paladin Aggro Decks. Turn 3 Moroes, Turn 4 Steward + 1 drop. Also Turn 6 Steward into Moroes is nice. Otherwise it is too weak for the overhwelming card power on constructed. It is nice for Arena however.

[Rodin]

The main problem I have with Moroes is that he summons the minion at the end of the turn. That makes it nearly impossible to combo the tokens with stuff, because they just wind up getting mashed. If he summoned at the beginning of the turn, that opens him up for stuff like Violet Teacher + Power of the Wild.

[Joran]

That's because wrathguard risks shield slam instagib.

Can't see much value in the book either.
The only real value of the cabalist tome to begin with is the fact it virtually increases your deck size.
This does not, you spend one spot for one random spell. No real gain involved.

C'Thun Warrior isn't the current FotM, so the odds of facing one isn't very high; all other flavors of Warrior don't run Shield Slams.

As mentioned before, it isn't played much because lots of classes have the ability to do 3 damage cleanly (Lightning Bolt, Rockbiter, Wrath, Frostbolt, Faerie Dragon, Alexstrasza's Champion, Quickshot, Huge Toad/King's Elekk). All of those classes happen to be in the current meta, so the odds of Wrathguard surviving more than one turn is pretty low. Zoo is already running enough 2 drops (2 Dire Wolf Alphas, 2 Dark Peddler's, 2 Knife Jugglers), so it doesn't need another one that isn't guaranteed to get value.

Edit: That's not to say that Wrathguard isn't a decent to good card. It's seen play a few times in Zoo back before WotG, the downside tends not to be too punishing, but the current Zoo has more tokens, so the Wrathguard doesn't fit.

I could see the book being run in a fast Tempo Mage deck.

For Moroes, they need more cards to buff up 1/1s for him to be good. Otherwise, he just seems like a worse version of Imp Master. It's a 3 mana 2/2 and he needs to survive another turn to even sniff vanilla value and the current meta environment is not friendly to 1/1s.

[boomwolf]

And yet, somehow, half my games are against warrior, and every single one was c'thun with double shield slam.

[Kish]

Incidentally, it looks like the Opera is Wing 2 of the adventure. So we'll probably get all of the random bosses in succession, capping out with the Wicked Witch.

Why capping out with the Crone? She's part of the Oz play only, and it looks like the legendary for that wing's going to be the announcer rather than any of the actual bosses.

[The Glyphstone]

Why capping out with the Crone? She's part of the Oz play only, and it looks like the legendary for that wing's going to be the announcer rather than any of the actual bosses.

Yeah, but the other two events are singletons. The three fights are Romeo+Julianne, The Big Bad Wolf, and The Crone (who I suspect will get Dorothee and the others as unique minions). So it is showcasing the 'final boss' of each random fight.

[heretic]

Got my first twelve win arena run!

No decklist because I wasn't thinking, but it was 12-1 Mage with 2 Fireball, 2 Frostbolt, 2 Faceless Summoner, 1 Ethereal Conjurer.

[PsyBomb]

Malchezzar's Imp has one thing that people don't seem to be talking about, much. Its stat line is 1/3, which is not at all common and very useful. A deck relying on it to refuel discards is going to have other issues, but the point is that it can alternate between an opening play that trades well and a late combo piece. Also depends on if it triggers once per card, or once per discard (I.E. Does Doomguard get two draws?)

Solid cards which benefit: Soul Fire, Darkshire Librarian, Doomguard, possibly Succubus. Just watch out for clearing out your deck, and also beware discarding things you'll need later.

[Mando Knight]

The trigger probably works the same as for the Tiny Knight, which does activate on both cards from Doomguard.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Just watch out for clearing out your deck, and also beware discarding things you'll need later.

It's worth noting that it's very like Fel Reaver in this respect: discarding a card from your hand and drawing a card is almost exactly like if that card was stuck at the bottom of your deck in the first place. In other words, it's not as big of a deal as it feels like.

[Joran]

Malchezzar's Imp has one thing that people don't seem to be talking about, much. Its stat line is 1/3, which is not at all common and very useful. A deck relying on it to refuel discards is going to have other issues, but the point is that it can alternate between an opening play that trades well and a late combo piece. Also depends on if it triggers once per card, or once per discard (I.E. Does Doomguard get two draws?)

Solid cards which benefit: Soul Fire, Darkshire Librarian, Doomguard, possibly Succubus. Just watch out for clearing out your deck, and also beware discarding things you'll need later.

1/3 statline is good, but I'm unsure which of the 8 one drops it'd replace: Voidwalker x2, Flame Imp x2, Argent Squire x2, Possessed Villager x2. The voidwalkers help protect the rest of the board, flame imps are good for early aggression, and the Argent/Possessed Villagers are stickier and good for trading.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Folks keep talking about "how can Zoo use the Imp?" but I don't think that discard cards are really well-suited to Zoolock to begin with. Warlock's discard-based cards are all about aggressively high tempo at the cost of card advantage, while Zoolock is about building a strong (but small) board and using small minions to trade up into big minions, which lets small minions aggressively hit face. Otherwise, it's not really a tempo deck.

[Mando Knight]

It's worth noting that it's very like Fel Reaver in this respect: discarding a card from your hand and drawing a card is almost exactly like if that card was stuck at the bottom of your deck in the first place. In other words, it's not as big of a deal as it feels like.

There is a very important difference between discarding a card and having it at the bottom of your deck, even for Warlock decks that won't make a habit of heading into fatigue: the information is revealed to your opponent. If you opponent knows you lost your second Darkshire Councilman (for example), they can start to play around that.

[Chen]

There is a very important difference between discarding a card and having it at the bottom of your deck, even for Warlock decks that won't make a habit of heading into fatigue: the information is revealed to your opponent. If you opponent knows you lost your second Darkshire Councilman (for example), they can start to play around that.

That's the same as Fel reaver though since they know what you burned. The Imp allows YOU to have more information before using it though. You can decide if you want to burn a known card in your hand for an unknown draw. Sometimes it won't be worth it, if you have a really key card in hand.

[Gandariel]

Got my first twelve win arena run!

No decklist because I wasn't thinking, but it was 12-1 Mage with 2 Fireball, 2 Frostbolt, 2 Faceless Summoner, 1 Ethereal Conjurer.

Congrats! !!

There is a very important difference between discarding a card and having it at the bottom of your deck, even for Warlock decks that won't make a habit of heading into fatigue: the information is revealed to your opponent. If you opponent knows you lost your second Darkshire Councilman (for example), they can start to play around that.

Well, depending on what deck you're playing. Zoo for example doesn't really care. Does it really matter to your opponent that you tossed Peddler? Or Possesses Villager ?

I could maybe see a case for Doomguard and PO because they're reach, but other than that you're not giving away that much info.

[boomwolf]

Two new cards!

Protect the king-warrior rare spell-3 mana
For each enemy minion, summon a 1/1 pawn with taunt



Interesting, might tip taunt warrior into viability?





Prince Malchezaar-neutral legendary minion-5 mana
At the start of your turn, shuffle 5 extra legendary minions into your deck
Daemon
5/6


Ok, what?
Probably will become staple of every grinder/mill deck for the sheer ability to pump your deck size, though only rouge can assure it triggers. it is said it will only put legionaries you don't already have in your deck, and only neutral and your class.
Now we know why master of disguise was nerfed though XD
Being a daemon is...interesting?

[Kish]

For anyone who's wondering, Daemon is a typo; it's Demon, not a new type they invented for Malchezaar.

Also, it was a misreport that it triggers at the start of your turn apparently--the text is "at the start of the game," and it means that if you have Malchezaar in your deck, you start off with a 35-card deck, with five legendaries in it you didn't put there. Only neutral, class, non-duplicate legendaries.