Dawn of war 40k who will win (thats right im reopening this again

[CrazyK]

okey first of all yes i would like to point out that the Imperium of man has a star child and yes tau does have advanced technology and immunity to the warp yes the nids have a hive mind of unimaginable proportion and the eldar are screwed if they cant have their death god yes chaos could potentialy destroy itself if it ends all the suffering perhaps why they call it the great game (?) but everyone auto assumes the orks to be mindless and always in-fighting and im sick of it orks easily have the fire power the tech and the numbers to crush all techincally they have already won because the galaxy is everlasting battle which is what the orks want but who says that the orks cant develop into more what if the orks brain eventually evolved back a step torwards the old ones and joined forces this would make the mighty orks into one nation and completley crush all other factions.

now for forms i want abosultley as much brewding and debate as possible i want all that stuff

[Mr Beer]

No-one will win because that puts an end to war and in 40K, there is only war.

Assessment of race-vs.-race to determine who 'should' win is futile. Fluff-wise, like I say, no-one can win because that breaks the meta-fluff and crunch-wise, the most powerful race is the one with the most recent supplement and overpriced figures being hawked by the GW dollar factory.

[Anti-Eagle]

The Tau entered things way too late to have any chance at taking control of things.

The Orks were designed as a weapon against the Necrons and they failed. The closest they could get to victory would be flooding reality with themselves and that would realistically be a Tyranid victory.

The Eldar had their chance and blew it. If they were competent they would give up on trying to reestablish themselves, abandon their pride, and dedicate themselves wholesale to combating chaos.

The Dark Eldar... No.

As things are there are only three sides that could ever actually pull off a victory. Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids due to the absolute natures of their theoretical win conditions. A victory for anyone else just means things keep going as they are and eventually one of the three absolutes tears them down.

The exception to this would be if the Emperor is resurrected or Ynnead takes form. That would respectively give humanity or the Eldar a fighting chance. And in the case of the Imperium this relies upon the Emperor not only being stronger than he was when he was placed on the golden throne but being sane as well.

[JNAProductions]

As a point, the Emperor was made when 10,000 psykers sacrificed themselves in a ritual to make a single gestalt soul.

He now has 10,000 psykers sacrificed to him daily.

The Emperor might be one helluva lot more powerful than last time.

[The Glyphstone]

As a point, the Emperor was made when 10,000 psykers sacrificed themselves in a ritual to make a single gestalt soul.

He now has 10,000 psykers sacrificed to him daily.

The Emperor might be one helluva lot more powerful than last time.

Worth pointing out that the 10,000 shamans who merged into the Emperor were the most powerful psykers of all time up to that point, and the 10,000 psykers who get sacrificed 'now' are the barely-talented gutter rejects who wash out of Sanctionite training and/or get judged too weak to even attempt it. Not entirely comparable as far as pure numbers go.

[JNAProductions]

Worth pointing out that the 10,000 shamans who merged into the Emperor were the most powerful psykers of all time up to that point, and the 10,000 psykers who get sacrificed 'now' are the barely-talented gutter rejects who wash out of Sanctionite training and/or get judged too weak to even attempt it. Not entirely comparable as far as pure numbers go.

Still. If each of the original Psykers are Power Level 100, and each of the rejects of today are PL .01, it'd only take ~27 years to match the original numbers. How long has the Emperor been on the Golden Throne? (No really, I have no idea. I'm REALLY fuzzy on dates in 40k.)

[Eldan]

Pretty exactly 10'000 years.

[JNAProductions]

Right. 10,000*.01*365=36,500.

36,500 times his original strength. Even adjusting it by a factor of a thousand (so the OG Psykers were 100,000 or the pissant psykers are .00001) still leaves him at 36.5 times his original strength.

[Kalmageddon]

Worth pointing out that the 10,000 shamans who merged into the Emperor were the most powerful psykers of all time up to that point, and the 10,000 psykers who get sacrificed 'now' are the barely-talented gutter rejects who wash out of Sanctionite training and/or get judged too weak to even attempt it. Not entirely comparable as far as pure numbers go.

As far as I remember from Rogue Trader fluff, the sacrificial psykers are quite the opposite of "barely-talented gutter rejects", the requirements and preparations to be able to serve the emperor are quite severe, they live a monastic life in contemplation for the day when they will merge their soul with the Emperor and are actually very devout and pious.
Which makes sense, the Emperor is all that is holy, you wouldn't want to feed all that is holy with filth, wouldn't you?

[ImNotTrevor]

While I have no idea why this in in Roleplaying Games, I'll bite anyway.

The above posts remind me of the theories that the Emperor is already becoming a Chaos God (Order God?) and is producint daemons (angels?).

See:
The Legion of the Damned.
Basically, Emps grabs up some dead marine souls and give 'em a big heaping spoonful of Pure Golden Love and they turn into the flaming demigods of pure destruction we all have uncomfortably sexy dreams about.

The Living Saints
Do the same but with a Sororitas soul and you have a shining demigod of holy vengeance that we all have very normal sexy dreams about.

Emps is basically training himself to go full-on deity and team up with Ynnead to kick Chaos ass. (And then probably betray Ynnead by shoving a shining golden middle finger of pure righteousness straight through Ynnead's knife-eared head.)

Basically, Emps will win in the end-times. Pretty much everything with be royally screwed by this occurance, and it will mark the beginning of the Age of Sigmar: 40k and the end of all things good in the world, but it will be pretty awesome up until then.

[The Glyphstone]

As far as I remember from Rogue Trader fluff, the sacrificial psykers are quite the opposite of "barely-talented gutter rejects", the requirements and preparations to be able to serve the emperor are quite severe, they live a monastic life in contemplation for the day when they will merge their soul with the Emperor and are actually very devout and pious.
Which makes sense, the Emperor is all that is holy, you wouldn't want to feed all that is holy with filth, wouldn't you?

Rogue Trader as in the RPG, or as in the 1st Edition fluff? Cause it's pretty much canon, and been for a while, that the sacrifices are the weakest of the weak in terms of psychic talent. They might still do everything you say in terms of cleansing and piety - but as far as actual psy strength, they are the rejects who are good for nothing except death in His name.

Right. 10,000*.01*365=36,500.

36,500 times his original strength. Even adjusting it by a factor of a thousand (so the OG Psykers were 100,000 or the pissant psykers are .00001) still leaves him at 36.5 times his original strength.

That assumes he's not 'spending' any energy, which he assuredly is. Maintaining a galactic-range psychic navigation beacon is a major psychic feat, plus more 'expenditure' if you consider stuff like Sororitas miracles. Those daily sacrifices of psykers aren't building up his reserves, they are replenishing him from getting weaker in the process of his ten-thousand year vigil.

[90sMusic]

The Tyranid or the Ork would ultimately win.

The armies are more less balanced against each other, or at least to the point where any of them can kill any of them, so strength in combat isn't really much of a factor.

Tyranids and Orks reproduce insanely fast and produce ridiculous numbers quickly. They would wipe out all other creatures in the universe through sheer attrition and then it would come down to a showdown between the two.

Tyranids would probably win in the end.

As powerful as the god emperor is, he has to feed on hundreds (or thousands?) of psykers daily just to sustain himself. After a while, with more and more of the universe being filled with orks and nids and less imperial planets to draw from, the emperor would essentially starve to death.

[Kalmageddon]

Yeah it probably has to be Tyranids.
If the galaxy map with the various hive fleets approaching is to be taken literally, each hive fleet has the equivalent amount of various clusters of stars in terms of forces. That is... Dumb, very, very dumb. But, as we all know, sci fi writers have no sense of scale, so it's perfectly possibile that the equivalent mass of a galaxy in tyranids* is coming to eat the Milky Way.

*based on how they are approaching the galaxy from different angles and each hive fleet has tentacles that extend for several hundred light years.

[CrazyK]

i love this banter and yes a very good point that the world would become extremley pointless if orks did flood reality with themselves the nids may be an extreme force that could devour everything but they seem a little uncoordinated but i would like to explore chaos on the count if the four chaos gods war with each other they could sustain themselves permanently and simply corrupt all other races and have endless war as far as a "(peaceful)" interesting term really race goes ie tau elder imperium are concerned they all except tau for some reason have their aces up their sleeves most revolving around there super gods if the emperor is reborn i dont think even his great power depending on just how large the hive is could even beat the endless advancements of the nids and the elder god of death if he is beaten then he will have to wait till more elder die to reincarnate in all truth if the emperor would die there would be mass chaos and then a new golden age which might be entirely spent on bringing mankind back from whatever destruction has happened bringing him all the way back to square one

[CrazyK]

Rogue Trader as in the RPG, or as in the 1st Edition fluff? Cause it's pretty much canon, and been for a while, that the sacrifices are the weakest of the weak in terms of psychic talent. They might still do everything you say in terms of cleansing and piety - but as far as actual psy strength, they are the rejects who are good for nothing except death in His name.



That assumes he's not 'spending' any energy, which he assuredly is. Maintaining a galactic-range psychic navigation beacon is a major psychic feat, plus more 'expenditure' if you consider stuff like Sororitas miracles. Those daily sacrifices of psykers aren't building up his reserves, they are replenishing him from getting weaker in the process of his ten-thousand year vigil.

what if the imperium of man got tau long range communication technology resulting in him not requiring to hold a bridge for pyskers?

[Brother Oni]

what if the imperium of man got tau long range communication technology resulting in him not requiring to hold a bridge for pyskers?

The Astronomicon is for navigation in the Warp for Imperial ships. Having Tau long range communications wouldn't fix that problem.

Tau FTL travel and communications are significantly slower than all the other races, which puts a cap on the upper size of their empire. The Imperium is too big to use Tau methods and would fall apart.

[khadgar567]

if you ask me nids basically turn every thing in to square one except khorne thanks to ork life support system in shape of tuska the daemon-kila. Since that da*n ork got himself and his boys in to khorne's domain aka orky valhala khorne now has constant steady access to psycic power for next iteration of universe

[Eldan]

Right. 10,000*.01*365=36,500.

36,500 times his original strength. Even adjusting it by a factor of a thousand (so the OG Psykers were 100,000 or the pissant psykers are .00001) still leaves him at 36.5 times his original strength.

IF he can actually absorb it. I mean, you can heap any number of food on a corpse and he wont' eat it. We're not sure those souls are actually going anywhere.

[Hunter Noventa]

That assumes he's not 'spending' any energy, which he assuredly is. Maintaining a galactic-range psychic navigation beacon is a major psychic feat, plus more 'expenditure' if you consider stuff like Sororitas miracles. Those daily sacrifices of psykers aren't building up his reserves, they are replenishing him from getting weaker in the process of his ten-thousand year vigil.

I don't think the Emperor actually powers the astronomicon, that's a separate set of psyker sacrifices that burns them out in a few years, so they're constantly shoveling more psykers into the ten thousand strong choir that powers the Astronomicon.

I'm pretty sure it's separate from the Emperor because the Astronomicon was a thing when he was on the Great Crusade, and if he was powering it he was either doing so from all across the galaxy, or it was moving with him.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

But I do agree that only Chaos, Tyranids or Necrons can ever achieve a win state as things stand.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think the Emperor actually powers the astronomicon, that's a separate set of psyker sacrifices that burns them out in a few years, so they're constantly shoveling more psykers into the ten thousand strong choir that powers the Astronomicon.

I'm pretty sure it's separate from the Emperor because the Astronomicon was a thing when he was on the Great Crusade, and if he was powering it he was either doing so from all across the galaxy, or it was moving with him.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

But I do agree that only Chaos, Tyranids or Necrons can ever achieve a win state as things stand.

He was, in fact, powering the Astronomicon during the Crusade. It was based on Terra, and he fueled it remotely. Nowadays, he's not powering directly, but he is the only person capable of handling and aiming the energy.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astronomican

"up to a hundred psykers die every day powering the Astronomicon."

[Hunter Noventa]

He was, in fact, powering the Astronomicon during the Crusade. It was based on Terra, and he fueled it remotely. Nowadays, he's not powering directly, but he is the only person capable of handling and aiming the energy.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astronomican

"up to a hundred psykers die every day powering the Astronomicon."

Ah, I'm not as up to date on 40k as I used to be.