Most Ridiculous Rules in RPGS

[Knaight]

No, there is nothing wrong with the Vancian system (mechanically-wise). No, there's nothing wrong with using it in your game. The problem is that the only justification and some sort of "internal consistency" is to be found in a book outside of D&D.

Also, it looks like the justification that appears in the book is not valid for all the settings that D&D currently supports. I haven't got the chance to read Dying Earth yet (and I don't know if I'd read it should I ever have the chance). But if what Thrudd says is right, not all the settings present some sort of long-dead, extremely advanced civilisation where magic comes from. In fact, in some of the most known settings magic comes from the gods.

The D&D books themselves also often offer some sort of justification, and while D&D may pretend to be a generic fantasy game from time to time, there are a lot of ways in which it is nothing of the sort.

[Takewo]

The D&D books themselves also often offer some sort of justification, and while D&D may pretend to be a generic fantasy game from time to time, there are a lot of ways in which it is nothing of the sort.

Oh, that's news to me. Would you point somewhere where they justify it? I can't remember coming across any explanation other than "well, it's magic."

[Knaight]

Oh, that's news to me. Would you point somewhere where they justify it? I can't remember coming across any explanation other than "well, it's magic."

3e had an explanation about how every prepared spell was actually a complex ritual with only the very end left unfinished, where actually casting the spell was finishing up the mostly unfinished ritual, and there were limitations to how many and how powerful unfinished rituals a mage could haul around at once.

[Takewo]

3e had an explanation about how every prepared spell was actually a complex ritual with only the very end left unfinished, where actually casting the spell was finishing up the mostly unfinished ritual, and there were limitations to how many and how powerful unfinished rituals a mage could haul around at once.

Oh, yeah. I remember that. I guess it went on a trip at the far back of my mind and had never really come back,

[goto124]

Oh, yeah. I remember that. I guess it went on a trip at the far back of my mind and had never really come back,

Knaight had to finish the complex ritual for the Summon Memory spell for you...

[Max_Killjoy]

Oh, yeah. I remember that. I guess it went on a trip at the far back of my mind and had never really come back,

Well, it is an utterly forgettable excuse for a bad magic system.

[Amaril]

Dragonlance explains it with the Curse of the Magi. Originally, on Krynn, once a wizard learned a spell, they could cast it as many times as they wanted. The gods feared how powerful the wizards became, so they cursed them all to forget their spells every time they cast them, forcing them to learn them again.

[Takewo]

Dragonlance explains it with the Curse of the Magi. Originally, on Krynn, once a wizard learned a spell, they could cast it as many times as they wanted. The gods feared how powerful the wizards became, so they cursed them all to forget their spells every time they cast them, forcing them to learn them again.

Which has always made me wonder how a wizard can prepare the same spell twice at once.

[Anonymouswizard]

Which has always made me wonder how a wizard can prepare the same spell twice at once.

Well it's like how electrical engineers always memorise Ohm's Law twice, just in case they forget the first time.

What's really weird is that once you've forgotten a spell you don't get to memorise a new one until tomorrow rolls around. So what, does my mind shrink whenever I cast a spell and then grow back while I sleep?

[CharonsHelper]

Which has always made me wonder how a wizard can prepare the same spell twice at once.

Is it magic?

[Takewo]

Well it's like how electrical engineers always memorise Ohm's Law twice, just in case they forget the first time.

What's really weird is that once you've forgotten a spell you don't get to memorise a new one until tomorrow rolls around. So what, does my mind shrink whenever I cast a spell and then grow back while I sleep?

That sounds reasonable

Is it magic?

I've always found "because of magic" a very poor explanation. "Magic works that way because it's magic" is a circular argument. You don't need a complete rational explanation for anything that you put in your game, but I prefer that systems have some sort of coherence and consistency.

D&D 3e's explanation can be as poor as you want, but it's consistent (kinda).

"You lose a prepared spell you cast it, because you had started casting it in the morning and you are just finishing it. That's why you can prepare the same spell twice" makes sense.

"You lose a prepared spell when you cast it, because the gods so willed. You can memorise the same spell twice, though, because magic" makes no sense at all.

[CharonsHelper]

I've always found "because of magic" a very poor explanation. "Magic works that way because it's magic" is a circular argument. You don't need a complete rational explanation for anything that you put in your game, but I prefer that systems have some sort of coherence and consistency.

Well - it looks like I had another sarcasm fail. >.<

[goto124]

Well - it looks like I had another sarcasm fail. >.<

Blue color is important in these forums!

[digiman619]

I've always found "because of magic" a very poor explanation. "Magic works that way because it's magic" is a circular argument. You don't need a complete rational explanation for anything that you put in your game, but I prefer that systems have some sort of coherence and consistency.

What are you talking about? That's what Marvel did for One More Day, and every one remembers how awesome that turned out.

[Takewo]

Well - it looks like I had another sarcasm fail. >.<

Oh! Sorry about that. I actually wondered whether you were being sarcastic or serious, but my fingers had already started typing, haha.

[Segev]

My preferred fluff for D&D-style spellcasting (particularly 3e) is one that requires a bit of an animist universe. The very spirits of the world - near-mindless as many may be - are bound by ancient contracts and rules. Sorcerers and bards charm these beings, befriending some and simply learning enough about others that they can call upon them and implore or command or intimidate them into doing their will. The verbal, somatic, and material components are just the tried-and-true means of getting the results the sorcerer wants. But, like any request or demand, ask too often in too short a time, and you start to be ignored.

Wizards are, essentially, lawyers. They pour over books of ancient law and pacts, finding things which require of spirits great and small to do things they want done. Whether programmatically putting together sequences of effects into larger ones, or finding agreements which require exactly the effects they desire, wizards collect these in notes and reminders. Their spellbooks rarely are codified "spells," though they're organized in ways that suggest them. This is why it can take so many pages to copy one "spell;" it's almost never as simple as a list of ingredients, because the wizard who researched it collected notes and tricks from myriad sources.

A wizard preparing his spells isn't memorizing anything. He's using his references to remind himself of the ritual actions he must take to set up "his side" of the agreement, so that later that day he can command by ancient pact in the name of the whoever that owes him a favor for his preparations that the spell effect he wants shall be cast. When he's cast it, the bargain is fulfilled and he's owed nothing more for that preparation. This is also how he can prepare more than one at a time; move three rocks nineteen degrees windershins, and you get 3 copies of the spell that requires one rock moving nineteen degrees windershins, or whatever.

The limits to a wizard's spell preparations are those of skill; too many preparations, and he can't get them all done, or worse, he isn't yet experienced enough to prepare more without accidentally abrogating earlier-prepared ones (which is what happens when he overwrites them). Attempting to "overwrite" too soon can also have disastrous consequences, as he is already in violation of some that he needs time to cleanse himself of.

[ClintACK]

3e had an explanation about how every prepared spell was actually a complex ritual with only the very end left unfinished, where actually casting the spell was finishing up the mostly unfinished ritual, and there were limitations to how many and how powerful unfinished rituals a mage could haul around at once.

This was explained, or at least described, better in the second set of Amber books, once upon a time. (The ones where Merlin is the main character.)

But no amount of explanation or description is going to change the fact that it's really frustrating to be the 1st level wizard who has expended all his spell slots and has nothing to do but whine at the party that this looks like a good place to camp for the night.

Shadowrun's Chunky Salsa Rule: If an explosion happens in an area too small for the blast radius, the explosion bounces off the walls and hits any targets again.

Presumably, you could create a fusion reactor by sealing a grenade in a footlocker.

Actually, that's pretty much how a pipe bomb works, isn't it? :)

AD&D's Gold-for-XP rule makes more sense when you remember that back then, D&D characters weren't expected to be heroic monster slayers - they were treasure-hunting tomb robbers who happened to be ABLE to fight.

Yep. And 3e kept the spirit of this alive -- you didn't have to *kill* a *monster* to get XP for it, you had to *defeat* an *encounter*. Sneaking past the guards meant you'd defeated them. Intimidating the bandits so they'd go look for easier marks meant you'd defeated them. And so on.

Also, AD&D1's training rules: by the rules, to go up a level, the DM graded you on how well you acted your alignment and class, and that determined how many weeks it would take to level up, IF you could find a trainer of the same class and pay 1500GP per level per week. And it took longer if the GM didn't like your RPing. (You could level up on your own if the GM gave you a good grade, but it took longer and cost just as much per week.) I get the impression this is one of many AD&D rules that was quietly ignored at most tables.

This is how I started out playing. Honestly, this makes quite a bit more sense than the way leveling up is usually played.

After a campaign arc was finished -- a big bad slain, a bounty claimed, a tomb raided -- we'd head back to our home city and take some downtime between adventures. The wizard would scour the library or magic guild for spells he could purchase access to and laboriously transcribe into his spell book. The fighter would go visit his mentor and train. We'd visit the local temple so that more serious damage (like level drains or severed limbs) could be healed by the powerful priests there. The cleric might spend some time brewing healing potions. There was a whole rhythm to the game of dangerous adventuring building to a boss battle, then an influx of wealth (whether it was the boss's hoard or the reward from the quest-giver) and then downtime to recover and become more powerful for the next time.

So my vote for Most Ridiculous Rule in 5e: The way leveling up works. RAW, a 4th-level Barbarian can be in mid combat, kill a hobgoblin, and then the very next round be a 5th-level Barbarian with an extra 10' of movement and an extra attack per round. And the wizard wakes up the next morning suddenly knowing how to cast fireball, which he'd never been able to figure out before. Or, heck, the Barbarian could decide to multiclass -- so one round he's beheading a hobgoblin, and six seconds later he has a brand new spell book in his pack and is casting shocking grasp on the rather surprised goblin that was sneaking up behind him.

Anyway... I do know that the fluff on this is that the Barbarian had been studying magic for weeks and it finally just clicked in his head -- in between swings of the axe -- but it's a pretty ridiculous rule. Especially when there's a whole chapter of the DMG on what characters can do during their downtime.

[Thrudd]

Maybe spell slots are literally a thing. Spell casters learn to create psychic partitions in their mind that are dedicating to housing the patterns that call up extra-dimensional reality bending energies. These energies literally can't be understood or held onto by normal mental processes, they are not of this reality. You store them and release them, and once they are released from the special mind partition it quickly fades out of your awareness like a dream fades, like memory of a past life or what you were doing before you were born.

You don't "know" a spell so much as you have a recording of the spell and the training/discipline to make your mind into an instrument that can run the program that is the spell. No human being has the hard drive capacity to actually store or understand a spell, you can only run it off of a removeable hard drive (spell book) or stream it from the cloud (deity/divine magic). You can't stay connected to the internet or leave the hard drive connected perpetually, however, because the energy required is beyond the ability of your body and mind to handle.

[Max_Killjoy]

So my vote for Most Ridiculous Rule in 5e: The way leveling up works. RAW, a 4th-level Barbarian can be in mid combat, kill a hobgoblin, and then the very next round be a 5th-level Barbarian with an extra 10' of movement and an extra attack per round. And the wizard wakes up the next morning suddenly knowing how to cast fireball, which he'd never been able to figure out before. Or, heck, the Barbarian could decide to multiclass -- so one round he's beheading a hobgoblin, and six seconds later he has a brand new spell book in his pack and is casting shocking grasp on the rather surprised goblin that was sneaking up behind him.

Anyway... I do know that the fluff on this is that the Barbarian had been studying magic for weeks and it finally just clicked in his head -- in between swings of the axe -- but it's a pretty ridiculous rule. Especially when there's a whole chapter of the DMG on what characters can do during their downtime.

That is, in general, part of the silliness of character progression based on discreet and sudden levels.

[ClintACK]

That is, in general, part of the silliness of character progression based on discreet and sudden levels.

Absolutely.

But discrete jumps in ability *feel* a lot more organic when you've got adventures interspersed with downtime, and you are gaining new capabilities in the downtime.

But I agree, something more like the system in Elder Scrolls where you get better at a skill by practicing it feels more natural. Except even then you are gaining hit points by sitting in your room casting spells over and over and over. *sigh*

Of course the real problem is that there's no way to craft a fixed set of known rules that can't be gamed.

[CharonsHelper]

Absolutely.

But discrete jumps in ability *feel* a lot more organic when you've got adventures interspersed with downtime, and you are gaining new capabilities in the downtime.

But I agree, something more like the system in Elder Scrolls where you get better at a skill by practicing it feels more natural. Except even then you are gaining hit points by sitting in your room casting spells over and over and over. *sigh*

Of course the real problem is that there's no way to craft a fixed set of known rules that can't be gamed.

In addition, that would be a LOT of extra paperwork.

[shadow_archmagi]

It gives people an IC reason to act selflessly or do things that only make sense for a real human being but not the kind that appears in a game. I think it's pretty good in principle, I just worry about it in practice.

I really like it conceptually, but in practice my players tended to either invest really heavily and then be unhappy because they were constantly poor, or completely fail to invest and then die and be miserable about starting at level 1.

I like the concept of players spending half their loot on booze and orphans, but tying it to as important and distant a concept as their eventual death may not have been the best choice.

Absolutely.
But discrete jumps in ability *feel* a lot more organic when you've got adventures interspersed with downtime, and you are gaining new capabilities in the downtime.

But I agree, something more like the system in Elder Scrolls where you get better at a skill by practicing it feels more natural. Except even then you are gaining hit points by sitting in your room casting spells over and over and over. *sigh*

Of course the real problem is that there's no way to craft a fixed set of known rules that can't be gamed.

My problem with the Elder Scrolls system is twofold:

1. Discrete jumps are more satisfying. "haha! I just levelled so I can throw fireballs, wield the Mega Hammer, and those rats that taunted me earlier will be easy now!" is way better than "Hohoho, after a good workout today, I'm 5% stronger! As long as I don't skip leg day, by this time next year, I'll be able to carry an extra 50 pounds!"

2. Sometimes I want skills, but don't want to practice them. Either you grind it and do something mind-numbing like standing in a fire while casting heal constantly, or you spend six hours wandering the countryside looking for injured people to help. Just let me learn spend some points to learn Speak with Dead so I can solve the mystery of Jogger's Peak already. I want to do that sidequest, not a weird one where my only goal is practice.

[Talakeal]

My preferred fluff for D&D-style spellcasting (particularly 3e) is one that requires a bit of an animist universe. The very spirits of the world - near-mindless as many may be - are bound by ancient contracts and rules. Sorcerers and bards charm these beings, befriending some and simply learning enough about others that they can call upon them and implore or command or intimidate them into doing their will. The verbal, somatic, and material components are just the tried-and-true means of getting the results the sorcerer wants. But, like any request or demand, ask too often in too short a time, and you start to be ignored.

Wizards are, essentially, lawyers. They pour over books of ancient law and pacts, finding things which require of spirits great and small to do things they want done. Whether programmatically putting together sequences of effects into larger ones, or finding agreements which require exactly the effects they desire, wizards collect these in notes and reminders. Their spellbooks rarely are codified "spells," though they're organized in ways that suggest them. This is why it can take so many pages to copy one "spell;" it's almost never as simple as a list of ingredients, because the wizard who researched it collected notes and tricks from myriad sources.

A wizard preparing his spells isn't memorizing anything. He's using his references to remind himself of the ritual actions he must take to set up "his side" of the agreement, so that later that day he can command by ancient pact in the name of the whoever that owes him a favor for his preparations that the spell effect he wants shall be cast. When he's cast it, the bargain is fulfilled and he's owed nothing more for that preparation. This is also how he can prepare more than one at a time; move three rocks nineteen degrees windershins, and you get 3 copies of the spell that requires one rock moving nineteen degrees windershins, or whatever.

The limits to a wizard's spell preparations are those of skill; too many preparations, and he can't get them all done, or worse, he isn't yet experienced enough to prepare more without accidentally abrogating earlier-prepared ones (which is what happens when he overwrites them). Attempting to "overwrite" too soon can also have disastrous consequences, as he is already in violation of some that he needs time to cleanse himself of.

I really like that. I may borrow this next time I run D&D.

[thirdkingdom]

I really like it conceptually, but in practice my players tended to either invest really heavily and then be unhappy because they were constantly poor, or completely fail to invest and then die and be miserable about starting at level 1.

I like the concept of players spending half their loot on booze and orphans, but tying it to as important and distant a concept as their eventual death may not have been the best choice.

I'm running ACKS right now and we're not using the XP reserve at all, largely because each player has a large enough stable of henchmen that if their primary PC were to die they'd just promote a hench up to full PC status. I do use the following houserules, though:

1. 500 gp and a week of drinking, debauchery and downtime will earn a character a reroll of hit points, although they have to take the new result.

2. Wealth worn openly doesn't count towards encumbrance. This is to encourage the players to bling their characters out with found treasure and jewelry rather than sell it.

3. Instead of gold going towards an XP reserve I apply bonuses to certain reaction rolls (and hiring attempts) for wealth spent flagrantly. So, spending a thousand gold on hiring a playwright to compose a musical about the adventurers' exploits and engaging a dozen actors to travel around the countryside performing said play would net them a positive modifier on reaction rolls for a good couple of months or so.

[Segev]

That is, in general, part of the silliness of character progression based on discreet and sudden levels.

Eh, no sillier than any other system where you can gain new powers and abilities you never had before. "I spend X character points to buy the Shocking Grasp power; I've totally been studying that for the last few months, and it just clicked!"

Even the systems which allow you to try something you don't yet have the ability to do and require investment of resources towards buying them still have that "magic" point where you go from "I can't cast fireball," to "I just cast fireball for the first time!"

I really like that. I may borrow this next time I run D&D.

Please do! I treat divine casters as being members of the spirit "courts," so to speak; they don't make pacts, but instead their place of value to their gods or the social structure of their spiritual society is such that they have the right to ask for or command authority. "You, our god has assigned you to help me today. When I call, raise somebody from the dead." Druids don't have gods, but their place in the Nature "club" serves a similar purpose.

[Jay R]

I always assumed that it takes several minutes to completely cast a spell, but you can do most of it and then wait with your finger on the "trigger", to make it go off quickly. The morning preparation was doing 98% of the casting.

In the last game I ran, I gave people the option of saving some unfilled slots, but they would need to get out the books and spend time with them to cast a spell with those slots. This allowed them to have a single slot open for any utility non-combat spell in the evening (mending, identify, sending, any form of scrying, etc.)

[Airk]

Even the systems which allow you to try something you don't yet have the ability to do and require investment of resources towards buying them still have that "magic" point where you go from "I can't cast fireball," to "I just cast fireball for the first time!"

I can't perceive how this is a problem. This is WHAT HAPPENS in real life. If I'm trying to do a combo in Street Fighter, I go into training mode and I screw it up over and over again until I hit that "magic" point where I actually do it right. There's only a problem if the game then allows me to do it 100% of the time from then on, but since these sorts of systems are usually associated with skill systems, there's no "Okay, I can fireball now" but rather "Okay, I can fireball if I roll well enough."

[Malimar]

In the last game I ran, I gave people the option of saving some unfilled slots, but they would need to get out the books and spend time with them to cast a spell with those slots. This allowed them to have a single slot open for any utility non-combat spell in the evening (mending, identify, sending, any form of scrying, etc.)

In 3.5, this is the official rule for wizards (but not divine casters, who have to prepare spells at a specific time each day). Leave a slot unfilled, spend 15 minutes later during the day to fill it:

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

[Telok]

But no amount of explanation or description is going to change the fact that it's really frustrating to be the 1st level wizard who has expended all his spell slots and has nothing to do but whine at the party that this looks like a good place to camp for the night.

Well if the character is an idiot savant who can only cast spells and never do anything else.

Most wizards can do other stuff like round up horses, drag wounded allies out and administer potions, throw explosives or nets, rally the hirelings, make sure nothing is sneaking up behind the party, hold a shield to cover the cleric casting a heal, etc. etc.

Some wizards can even swing a staff and hit people.

[Knaight]

But no amount of explanation or description is going to change the fact that it's really frustrating to be the 1st level wizard who has expended all his spell slots and has nothing to do but whine at the party that this looks like a good place to camp for the night.

No argument there (although there's generally at least something they can do, particularly as they tend to have good out of combat skills for most D&D editions). I'm just saying that there are setting-side justifications.