The Politics of Skyrim

[Mando Knight]

If the Thalmor couldn't win a war with the empire, then why is the treaty so oppressive?

Because even if the Dominion couldn't take the entire Empire, they did sack the Imperial City and forced the Legion to deplete their numbers in retaking it. The Emperor didn't believe he had the strength to demand more favorable terms at that point.

[DomaDoma]

The only thing that makes sense to me is that, in the Great War, BOTH sides were bled white. So, Titus doesn't want to call the Dominion's bluff (this did not work out great for him the first time around), but the Dominion, nonetheless, does need to buy itself some time.

And so the Concordat, to ensure that resistance is discouraged from the getgo. The Justiciars, to plant a buttload of enemy agents in every part of the Empire, with just enough fear surrounding them to make them unquestioned. The civil war, to deal with the little problem where the humans will have produced a whole new fighting-fit generation within thirty years. And would anybody be surprised if they also had a hand in the assassination?

As was said, Skyrim politics been done to death. Still a fun topic. After some thought, I think there's just no scenario where either the Empire or Stormcloak Skyrim will fend off the Dominion. Maybe the Redguards will hold out, maybe once other men are gone the mer will deal with them permanently.

Sadly, I have to think you're right. Of course, if this plotline is explored in any way similar to anything that's been established on the Thalmor so far, the Redguards WILL hold out.

Meaning, naturally, that our set of poetic considerations becomes:

1) Any sane polity wants enemy intelligence. If you don't see that, you should probably not be very big into politics.
2) We are at the westernmost point on the continent.
3) There are, in fact, four cardinal directions.
4) There is no such thing as droit du signeur of the open mike.
5) The accepted thematic form of high poetry is, roughly, "everything used to be so much shinier/wistful sigh." Anyone capable of this form is therefore a fully qualified poet.
6) If a fully qualified poet has gotten a huge land grant from your closest ally, don't snub him.
7) Important qualifier: aspersions on Morrowind are uncalled for.

(It's amazing how many wisecracks you can come up with when totally broken up about fictional worlds.)

[Grim Portent]

Because even if the Dominion couldn't take the entire Empire, they did sack the Imperial City and forced the Legion to deplete their numbers in retaking it. The Emperor didn't believe he had the strength to demand more favorable terms at that point.

He probably did, but they were scattered around the empire and waiting for them to muster for a counterattack would have meant leaving most of Cyrodiil in the hands of the Dominion, and the empire has always placed Cyrodiil above the other provinces' interests anyway, so sacrificing one province and restricting the freedoms of the others in order to prevent a few hundred/thousands Cyrodii citizens from dying and a few vineyards being burnt down was a sacrifice deal the empire was always inclined to take.



The Dominion as a nation is actively bad at extended warfare, relying very heavily on their powerful mages and lower grade battlemages to win fights, each one lost takes years to replace. The Bosmer and Khajiit levies they raise are unlikely to be loyal troops and will need a lot of oversight, though fear probably helps keep them in line. A very large number of Altmer died in the war and their population will be decades or centuries away from recovering, while the men will recover fast and should be more or less back to strength by now.

The Dominion also has a large amount of forces dedicated to suppressing the populace of their provinces and carrying out ethnic, political and religious purges, which can't really be redirected to other areas without risking an outright rebellion in their lands, which could rapidly lose them a future war.

Though the ultimate game changer would be if either side could convince Argonia to step in. The Argonians are the only race that wasn't devastated severely by the Oblivion Crisis, successfully fending it off in the novelization and then ceding from the empire as a result of Thalmor influence. Their population is large, healthy, able to deploy through terrain that is nigh impassible to normal troops and they have a natural knack for illusions, to the extent that in the lore a random farmer was able to cast paralysis spells (pre-Skyrim paralysis was an illusion).

[DomaDoma]

But actually, I had some pretty definite ideas about how to stop the Civil War. (That's what comes of designing your first Dragonborn to hail from Bruma, like a chump. Oh, the railroading. It seared me.)

1) Set Balgruuf up as the center of an anti-dragon coalition. It's clear the dragons are a common enemy. Not only does that provide a third option for anyone sensible enough not to fight a war between what is, quite literally, two sides of a coin - and I don't imagine Balgruuf would be looking too closely for deserters from the preexisting armies, either - but it makes an excellent reason for Ulfric not to attack him.
2) Get the dossier to Ulfric. My Dragonborn would have done it through Rikke (having joined the Legion in the hopes that Tullius would then put in a word for Thorald Gray-Mane... yeah. I despise Tullius.) A Stormcloak could do it directly. Either way, Ulfric would absolutely take it to heart. Which would lead to:
3) Hold a King's Moot, with Elisif and Ulfric explicitly not in the running. Ideally, the High King would then be Balgruuf. But I can easily see Balgruuf declining. Next-best option: Korir. He gets to rebuild Winterhold to its former glory and has not the slightest interest in the other Holds, so anything they might get up to is completely out of his hands.
4) Don't be in a hurry to phase out the anti-dragon coalition.

[Mando Knight]

Korir would be too weak of a choice as High King, I think. He utterly despises the one thing his hold has left to offer, and if all he does is focus on rebuilding his own province, what use is he as High King? If you wanted to install a puppet as High King, you would pick an inexperienced leader who nonetheless is in charge of a hold of great economic or military importance to the province (i.e. Elisif). Yes, Balgruuf is probably the best choice for High King if you eliminate Elisif and Ulfric from the competition, but none of the others are really contenders at all, to the point where I'd probably rather go back to Elisif or Ulfric.

[DomaDoma]

If you want a resolution to the key Civil War issue of whether we're in the Empire or not, either you have a settlement palatable to both sides, which is what Balgruuf would effect, or you de facto let that decision be made at the local level, which a weak High King would ensure. Elisif, knowing the basic purpose of the peace, would gladly play my-hands-are-tied. The main trouble there, with the original run of Jarls, is Markarth and Falkreath. But don't forget: the REAL strength of Skyrim still rests in Whiterun.

(Of course, there's no scenario in which Markarth isn't a problem. That place is ceded, not to the Silver-Bloods or the Thalmor or anyone else in the game, but to George R.R. Martin. Irredeemable.)

EDIT: And hey, since the end of the war has reduced other claims on the place, we can always send the Mages Guild to Castle Dour...

[Mando Knight]

A weak High King wouldn't be acceptable to either side, and a divided Skyrim is literally what the whole civil war is being fought to resolve. Appoint a weak High King on Skyrim without removing Ulfric or the Empire from the equation, and both sides will force the king to abdicate as they resume fighting.

[DomaDoma]

But in this scenario, Ulfric has been removed from the equation. Just keep Skyrim nominally in the Empire, and the Empire won't be forced to intervene either.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't really understand what them taking casualties had to do with my post.

And the other statement goes down a path I do not like. I mean you could single handedly win a war against the Aldmeri Dominion and make the Stormcloaks and Empire both happy. I would rather have this discussion without that idea of it being a video game. Because technically, there is no reason to eat or live in a house, and making money is so easy that the culture would be insanely different.

I just want to pick at this a bit. The player character is genuinely a superhuman (or superelven, or superargonian- you get it) who has the in-setting power to defeat armies practically singlehanded, as well as an innate desire to dominate others due to being a dragon in mortal form. Elder Scrolls protagonists aren't powerful just because it's a videogame and they're the protagonist - they actually canonically have amazing abilities very few other people can hope to match.

Having the Dragonborn on your side really would be a deciding factor in a war, because this is a dude who can master any mortal endeavor as well as call fire from the sky and turn super saiyan.

[Volcan]

I just want to pick at this a bit. The player character is genuinely a superhuman (or superelven, or superargonian- you get it) who has the in-setting power to defeat armies practically singlehanded, as well as an innate desire to dominate others due to being a dragon in mortal form. Elder Scrolls protagonists aren't powerful just because it's a videogame and they're the protagonist - they actually canonically have amazing abilities very few other people can hope to match.

Having the Dragonborn on your side really would be a deciding factor in a war, because this is a dude who can master any mortal endeavor as well as call fire from the sky and turn super saiyan.

I mean, you're right, but even so, you can be killed by someone who isn't a dragon born pretty easily. In terms of a battle they would make a solid impact, but a war, not so much.

[Balmas]

When it comes to the Skyrim Civil War, I usually land square in the "Screw your factions" faction. The true enemy of either faction, I think, is not Empire or Stormcloaks, but the Thalmor. What I want is a mod where, instead of weakening either side with pointless infighting, the Dovahkiin can take the fight to the Aldmeri.

If I were forced to choose, I guess the question is, would I rather fight for the Thalmor, or against them? That's what it comes down to. Empire is for the Thalmor, Stormcloaks are against.

Plus, the fact that the empire decides to give you a viking crew cut for no reason in the first five minutes is a rather convincing reason not to join them.

[Grim Portent]

Previous dragonborn are attributed as destroying entire armies with the power of the Voice and changing the geography and climate of entire provinces.

Not to mention the Last Dragonborn defeats a literal god in Alduin.

I would say pwoerful dragonborn are at least as powerful as the living gods of the Tribunal were, and one of them suspended a meteor in the sky while it was in the process of crashing into his city and fixed it there until he died to end the threat posed by Dagoth Ur.

[druid91]

I mean, you're right, but even so, you can be killed by someone who isn't a dragon born pretty easily. In terms of a battle they would make a solid impact, but a war, not so much.

You are vastly underestimating the power of CHIM.

There is a reason why they hint at you being a Reincarnation of Talos if you join the Imperial Legion and win the war for them.

[Volcan]

Previous dragonborn are attributed as destroying entire armies with the power of the Voice and changing the geography and climate of entire provinces.

Not to mention the Last Dragonborn defeats a literal god in Alduin.

I would say pwoerful dragonborn are at least as powerful as the living gods of the Tribunal were, and one of them suspended a meteor in the sky while it was in the process of crashing into his city and fixed it there until he died to end the threat posed by Dagoth Ur.

If this is true, which I guess it is, then the game is utterly ridiculous. The amount of times I've died to some bandit highwaymen, or a random drougr deathlord, does not make it seem like I am that powerful.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

@DomaDoma: I'm inclined to agree with Mando Knight that a weak High King would be a bad idea, if for no other reason than we WILL be fighting the Third Aldmeri Dominion sooner or later, and Skyrim will need a leader they can rally behind, not one the Jarls all ignore and decide to do their own thing rather than follow. The Dominion EXCELS at sowing discord and a weak ruler wouldn't be able to deal with that.

I do agree Balgruuf would be an excellent choice, if he could be convinced to take the job. If not, what about that Free-Winter fellow? The one who takes over Windhelm if you take the Imperial side to the end of the war?

[Grim Portent]

If this is true, which I guess it is, then the game is utterly ridiculous. The amount of times I've died to some bandit highwaymen, or a random drougr deathlord, does not make it seem like I am that powerful.

In canon the protagonists, from Morrowwind onwards (also retroactively into the older games) are attributed as possessing the power to reset their existence to an earlier point in time, freeze time and alter reality. They canonically are impossible to kill because they can just reset to an earlier point in time. Basically the save and load functions are canon in the settings, but only possessed by about 5 people throughout history so far. The ability to stop time mid-fight and eat fifty cheese wheels to heal is also canon. Vivec, one of the living gods in Morrowwind, wrote a book about it which you can read in the game.



In a less lighthearted aspect of the game though, the Last Dragonborn is implied to be the reincarnation of Tiber Septim (the god Talos), the chosen champion of the god Akatosh, bears the blessings of multiple divines, all the daedric lords, slew one of the worlds most powerful vampires, leads the most powerful assassins guild and for which he serves as the prophet of the original god of chaos, has come into direct contact with the eye of a god (the Morrowwind protagonist came into contact with one's heart), has free access to the realm of Hermaeus Mora, who knows almost all knowledge that does, will or can exist. They can control the weather, the minds of the weak willed, dragons, time and the forces of nature.



For reference of how powerful the characters are supposed to be in the lore by the way, the character from Oblivion is canonically the daedric lord Sheogorath now. They killed the old one and took his place. Killed a literal god, and became his successor. All after being the prophet of the god of chaos, champion of all but one of the daedric lords, champion of the entire pantheon of the nine divines, the reincarnation (it's implied) of Pelinal Whitestrake a champion who served the first empress, who broke a curse cast by a god, slew the most powerful evil wizard to ever live, as well as a myriad of lesser feats.

[Eldan]

If this is true, which I guess it is, then the game is utterly ridiculous. The amount of times I've died to some bandit highwaymen, or a random drougr deathlord, does not make it seem like I am that powerful.

The Hero of the Elder Scrolls has the power of, in hte moment of their death, turning back time to a point where they weren't dead.

Yes, quicksave is canon.

[Yuki Akuma]

_volcan_, I think starting with Skyrim and not even exploring all of the game world yet has caused you to seriously underestimate how goddamn weird the setting actually is. On the surface it looks like generic European fantasy, but it's... not.

[DomaDoma]

@DomaDoma: I'm inclined to agree with Mando Knight that a weak High King would be a bad idea, if for no other reason than we WILL be fighting the Third Aldmeri Dominion sooner or later, and Skyrim will need a leader they can rally behind, not one the Jarls all ignore and decide to do their own thing rather than follow. The Dominion EXCELS at sowing discord and a weak ruler wouldn't be able to deal with that.

I do agree Balgruuf would be an excellent choice, if he could be convinced to take the job. If not, what about that Free-Winter fellow? The one who takes over Windhelm if you take the Imperial side to the end of the war?

Brunwulf Free-Winter. Not a bad option at all, no. It miiight be going a bit far to expect Ulfric to cede Windhelm to him before the Moot, as it's not strictly necessary and Galmar would have a cow, but in the unlikely event, that'd be wonderful.

Yeah. Point taken on the discord-sowing.

[Volcan]

The Hero of the Elder Scrolls has the power of, in hte moment of their death, turning back time to a point where they weren't dead.

Yes, quicksave is canon.

You guys are right, but it never says anything about that being a power of the dragon born, so I assumed it was just there because it is a game and it is not dark souls.

[Yuki Akuma]

You guys are right, but it never says anything about that being a power of the dragon born, so I assumed it was just there because it is a game and it is not dark souls.

Nah, that's not a power of being Dragonborn.

That's a power of CHIM.

[Grim Portent]

It's not exactly a power of the dragonborn, only one other dragonborn is meant to have had it, and that was Tiber Septim. It's a protagonist power that is only rarely referenced since Morrowwind.

In canon the idea is that the protagonists have achieved a state of spiritual transcendence that has otherwise only been achieved by Vivec and Tiber Septim. It is incredibly weird to understand because it is A) written about as strangely as possible to emulate religious and philosophical texts and B) starts with some spiritual assumptions that contradict most human religions.

As I've understood it CHIM is the state of transcending mortal limitations, like time, space, physical form, physics so on and so forth. It's why you do not need to eat or sleep, can fast travel, save and do all sorts of other stuff that's kind of insane. It's only supposed to be attainable by mortals and not gods because gods don't understand that they are limited in the first place and can therefore never overcome their limits.

[The_Jackal]

Okay, here we go. The Stormcloaks are right, the Empire is wrong, and for one simple reason: Might equals right. The Empire isn't a democracy, it doesn't derive it's legitimacy from consent of the governed. Its power is what legitimizes its rule. The subjects of the Empire abide their governance because their power prevents them from being tyrannized by less palatable invaders, like the Thalmor. You might have noticed that under the current Empire leadership, Thalmor openly walk Skyrim kidnapping, torturing and killing Nords for their religious beliefs. It's like the line from Game of Thrones: "A King defends his people, or he is no King at all."

[Mando Knight]

As more tongue-in-cheek, winking-at-the-fourth-wall theories, I've come to think of the Elder Scrolls as being "the code of the game itself."

[factotum]

For reference of how powerful the characters are supposed to be in the lore by the way, the character from Oblivion is canonically the daedric lord Sheogorath now. They killed the old one and took his place.

I never quite understood how that worked, considering the Sheogorath in that quest in Skyrim refers to Pelagius as an "old friend"--which makes no sense if he was the guy from Oblivion, considering Pelagius died more than 200 years before he was born?

[Spore]

I never quite understood how that worked, considering the Sheogorath in that quest in Skyrim refers to Pelagius as an "old friend"--which makes no sense if he was the guy from Oblivion, considering Pelagius died more than 200 years before he was born?

Since WHEN has the Daedric Prince of Madness started to make sense? Maybe it is just a joke on his behalf, maybe Shivering Isles is not canon, maybe the Hero of Kvatch has absorbed Sheogorath's past memories.

I tend to go with the expansion being non-canon because it makes the most sense to newer players. Also the Princes would have sprung into action if Jyggalag reappeared and stopped them from having their way with the mortals. Maybe he would have even started to make plans about strengthening Talos because having proper borders between planes is important to a "demigod of order" or whatever Daedric Princes actually are considered.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

My understanding of mantling is that when you mantle a god or similar power, normally you merge with them, and they get access to your power and vice-versa. But when an aspect breaks away it doesn't take all the collected power with them (witness Clavicus Vile in the Lord of Souls book...and for that matter normally, with Barbas), they become two entities again and each gets a portion. Jyggalag presumably left something 'behind' when he became himself again.

And if nothing else, Haskill can fill Sheo in on what he's supposed to know about himself.

[Aeson]

I never quite understood how that worked, considering the Sheogorath in that quest in Skyrim refers to Pelagius as an "old friend"--which makes no sense if he was the guy from Oblivion, considering Pelagius died more than 200 years before he was born?

If you played Oblivion as an older elf, it isn't impossible that your player character was alive prior to the death of the Emperor Pelagius. It might not be all that likely, but not impossible. Probably still doesn't make much sense for Pelagius to have been an old friend, though. For that matter, with it apparently not being unheard of (though also not that common) for elves to live to ~1000 years (and with extreme examples like Divayth Fyr living for 4000 or more), it's also not impossible that an older elf player character in Oblivion could have been old enough to have met Tiber Septim, or maybe even have lived through a reasonable portion of the Second Era in addition to more or less all of the Third Era.

Granted, in either case you kind of have to do mental gymnastics to justify why the player character, despite being hundreds of years old, is merely level 1 at the start of the game and is no better off than any other level 1 character.

Since WHEN has the Daedric Prince of Madness started to make sense? Maybe it is just a joke on his behalf, maybe Shivering Isles is not canon, maybe the Hero of Kvatch has absorbed Sheogorath's past memories.

You could also argue that Pelagius became a resident of Sheogorath's realm after his death, though I don't recall him being present in Shivering Isles. It sometimes appears as though the various Daedric Princes have some claim on the souls of certain mortals, and that the mortals whose souls are so claimed may end up in the realm of a Daedric Prince after the mortals' deaths. With ~2 centuries between the end of Oblivion and the start of Skyrim, that leaves plenty of time for the Champion of Cyrodiil turned Sheogorath to become 'old friends' with Pelagius, if Pelagius is there. There's also the possibility that the flow of time is different, or at least less linear, in the realms of Oblivion than on Mundus.

But yes, I generally agree with the sentiment that actions of Sheogorath, the probably not entirely sane Prince of Madness, need not make sense. Whether he's lying, playing a prank, truly believes or actually does know Pelagius likely doesn't really matter so far as he is concerned.

[Cikomyr]

But in this scenario, Ulfric has been removed from the equation. Just keep Skyrim nominally in the Empire, and the Empire won't be forced to intervene either.

But it doesnt solve the War's Casus Belli. Is the worship of Talos still allowed or not? Are the Thalmor inquisitord allowed to roam the land?

[DomaDoma]

But it doesnt solve the War's Casus Belli. Is the worship of Talos still allowed or not? Are the Thalmor inquisitord allowed to roam the land?

De jure yes; de facto, only in Markarth and Falkreath. Kareeah's convinced me that the Korir option wouldn't work anyway, so let's just stick with Balgruuf. You know how Whiterun is run with regard to matters of heresy, yes? Apply that to the whole province.

And Falkreath is just about entirely Siddgeir's fault (side note: pretty sure his steward is a Thalmor agent actually intent on good press.) Once everything's settled down, there's ample excuse to depose him.