The Politics of Skyrim

[Yuki Akuma]

I believe the flow of time in Oblivion canonically doesn't have to match up with the flow of time in Mundus - considering the timeline in Mundus is Akatosh and the timeline outside of Mundus doesn't necessarily have anything to do with him.

Mora and Azura both have abilities that would require them to be able to ignore the normal flow of time, and I don't see why other Daedric Princes should have to respect it either.

[Cikomyr]

De jure yes; de facto, only in Markarth and Falkreath. Kareeah's convinced me that the Korir option wouldn't work anyway, so let's just stick with Balgruuf. You know how Whiterun is run with regard to matters of heresy, yes? Apply that to the whole province.

And Falkreath is just about entirely Siddgeir's fault (side note: pretty sure his steward is a Thalmor agent actually intent on good press.) Once everything's settled down, there's ample excuse to depose him.

Ok. Then, if the Thalmor shows up with the Emperor authority to enforce the Treaty in ALL of Skyrim?

Because, thats ultimately the issue. The Emperor has given authority to the Thalmor, and Skyrim rebels against that autority.

[DomaDoma]

Like the Emperor wouldn't turn a blind eye given the option. (This scenario does assume Titus Mede II is Emperor. I cannot stress how deeply futile this scenario is when applied to the canonical games.)

Of course the Thalmor Justiciars WILL show up. But they'll meet stonewalling at every official level, and the less-official levels will give them worse than that. Just enough of a mask of compliance that it's not, technically, a violation of the treaty.

Besides, you've already massacred their embassy. That would make for a violation of any treaty ever to exist. But there's a distinct lack of war-rumblings about that - which can only mean that the Dominion forces aren't feeling quite hale and hearty just yet.

[Crow]

I never understood all the pro-Balgruuf talk. He always struck me as weak, or a bit of a ditherer.

Maybe not; but still not this perfect option that some people make him out to be.

[Grim Portent]

Like the Emperor wouldn't turn a blind eye given the option. (This scenario does assume Titus Mede II is Emperor. I cannot stress how deeply futile this scenario is when applied to the canonical games.)

Of course the Thalmor Justiciars WILL show up. But they'll meet stonewalling at every official level, and the less-official levels will give them worse than that. Just enough of a mask of compliance that it's not, technically, a violation of the treaty.

Besides, you've already massacred their embassy. That would make for a violation of any treaty ever to exist. But there's a distinct lack of war-rumblings about that - which can only mean that the Dominion forces aren't feeling quite hale and hearty just yet.

No one involved in the embassy incident is a member of the Empire or Skyrim government, so it's not any more of a treaty violation than bandits robbing a Thalmor patrol is.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I never understood all the pro-Balgruuf talk.

He's got the common sense to stay out of the unwinnable war as long as possible. He's smart and experienced enough to distrust the Thalmor. He cares about his people. When a major disaster (dragons) really does hit, he acts decisively and without regard to appearances; he doesn't stand on ceremony just to do so. He thinks long term. He listens to his advisers, and he has a variety of them with different viewpoints rather than a horde all shouting the same thing. How exactly do you get 'ditherer?'

[Winter_Wolf]

I always got the sense Balgruuf was a badass in his day, and has lived long enough to temper his, er, temper...with a bit of restraint. He's still kind of pissed about how things are going down. Remember his rant about how something something "and we were told to like it!" I suspect he actually hates the Thalmor, but doesn't side with Ulfric because he sees an egomaniac who can't actually do better.

Speaking of whom, I think it was Alvor (who's the smith in Riverwood again?) said that people weren't giving up Talos worship, but Ulfric made such a big stink that it basically gave the Thalmor an excuse to come in and start aggressively rooting out Talos worshippers. I'm a fan of Ulfric's general goal, but damn he's just such a bastard.

[Cikomyr]

Baalgruf happens to be the most tri-dimensional of the Jarls. We get to see.many aspects of him, because he was the one who was given the most care in his design. He is the first Jarl one would usually meet, after all.

I kind of disliked how most of the other Jarls were presented as nothing but placeholders and occasional quest givers. Exception being the lady who had divination skills. She was cool.

I suppose the grumpy Jarl of Winterhold was also funny, albeit... restricted.

I despised the Jarl of Markath. In fact, i despised most of Markath's quests and NPCs. Bunch of broken stupid railroads without point or end. Too bad, because i LOVED the city itself.

[DomaDoma]

Idgrod Ravencrone is the shiz, yes.

I don't know what's left to love about Markarth once you've (justly) ruled out everyone in it and everything they ask you to do. (Okay, the quest for Calcelmo's Falmer research was pretty awesome. But that came from outside, dangit.) The majestic river canyon, maybe? Eh, you can always catch that on the way to Sky Haven.

Anyway, talking of "standing on ceremony": as far as Elder Scrolls railroading goes, the part where you can't accomplish anything by prematurely heading southeast, rather than towards the dude who totally abandoned you to die two quests ago, was a painful one. But it pales next to the total inability to put vital military intelligence to use after the main quest all but whaps you over the nose with it. At least the former makes sense with most PCs' character motivations.

[Winter_Wolf]

Something I wonder about, why are Balgruuf's kids so messed up? Can it all be pinned on "external influences" or were their mother(s) some kind of unhinged freaks in their own right? It just seems lazy to pin it all on daedric influence, but I'm not seeing anything else at play.

What's up with Proventis? Is he really after the Jarl's best interests? Is he an Imperial spy? Is it just because he's so steeped in courtly graces? Gotta say I find it hard to like him. You know who I really like, is Galmar. He's very convincing, and his conviction is based in a very plausible logic. Even if his first reaction is to send you on a suicide mission. If it wasn't for his grizzled outlook I'd probably have betrayed Ulfric first chance I got. Couldn't be the face of the Rebellion, but he's certainly the heart and spirit of it.

[The_Jackal]

He's got the common sense to stay out of the unwinnable war as long as possible. He's smart and experienced enough to distrust the Thalmor. He cares about his people. When a major disaster (dragons) really does hit, he acts decisively and without regard to appearances; he doesn't stand on ceremony just to do so. He thinks long term. He listens to his advisers, and he has a variety of them with different viewpoints rather than a horde all shouting the same thing. How exactly do you get 'ditherer?'

If he cares about his people, then why isn't he marching on Northwatch Keep to rescue his kidnapped vassal?

[Crow]

If he cares about his people, then why isn't he marching on Northwatch Keep to rescue his kidnapped vassal?

I'm sure Proventus advised him against it. Let's not upset our Thalmor overlords.

:D

[factotum]

If he cares about his people, then why isn't he marching on Northwatch Keep to rescue his kidnapped vassal?

Whatever else Balgruuf is, he is not omniscient. Do you have some evidence that he knew about Thorald Gray-Mane being kidnapped and chose to do nothing about it, or (as I think) that he simply didn't know the guy was missing?

[Spore]

If he cares about his people, then why isn't he marching on Northwatch Keep to rescue his kidnapped vassal?

You cannot free a prisoner as a ruler withour provoking an incident. This is a job best suited for a singular infiltrator such as you.

[DomaDoma]

Whatever else Balgruuf is, he is not omniscient. Do you have some evidence that he knew about Thorald Gray-Mane being kidnapped and chose to do nothing about it, or (as I think) that he simply didn't know the guy was missing?

Thorald is the nephew of one of Balgruuf's thanes. He probably knew. But it seems pretty apparent that Idolaf Battle-Born is the only person in Whiterun who knew he was alive and the Thalmor had him. Because he personally wrote the military governor about the matter, on the off chance he wasn't dead. Kind of makes you wonder why the fandom doesn't go on about the tragic estrangement between Idolaf and Thorald the way they do with Hadvar and Ralof.

(Of course, there's always the chance that Olfrid knew and didn't care. Among characters who don't wield any real power, that guy is probably the most colossal douche in the game.)

[Cikomyr]

Idgrod Ravencrone is the shiz, yes.

I don't know what's left to love about Markarth once you've (justly) ruled out everyone in it and everything they ask you to do. (Okay, the quest for Calcelmo's Falmer research was pretty awesome. But that came from outside, dangit.) The majestic river canyon, maybe? Eh, you can always catch that on the way to Sky Haven.

I loved the design of the city. The way it was carved in stone.

, talking of "standing on ceremony": as far as Elder Scrolls railroading goes, the part where you can't accomplish anything by prematurely heading southeast, rather than towards the dude who totally abandoned you to die two quests ago, was a painful one. But it pales next to the total inability to put vital military intelligence to use after the main quest all but whaps you over the nose with it. At least the former makes sense with most PCs' character motivations.

You may need to remind me of which quests these are..

[DomaDoma]

The first one is a giant spoiler that you probably don't know firsthand, so I was rather hedging my phrasing there. (The impression about totally being left to die seems idiosyncratic to my paranoid first playthrough.) But the second is, of course, running across the file stating that the whole rebellion was instigated by the Thalmor, right next to files you need to read in order to progress the game. And then you don't have the option to show that to anyone. Maddening.

[veti]

I never quite understood how that worked, considering the Sheogorath in that quest in Skyrim refers to Pelagius as an "old friend"--which makes no sense if he was the guy from Oblivion, considering Pelagius died more than 200 years before he was born?

If I'd been having tea with someone every Tuesday for 200 years, I'd consider them a pretty "old friend" too.

Having said that - I don't see any hint in Sheogorath's dialogue that he was formerly the Hero of Kvatch, Saviour of Bruma, Champion of Cyrodiil etc.

Ok. Then, if the Thalmor shows up with the Emperor authority to enforce the Treaty in ALL of Skyrim?

Because, thats ultimately the issue. The Emperor has given authority to the Thalmor, and Skyrim rebels against that autority.

So? Kill them. Kill every Thalmor who sets foot in Skyrim.

When the Thalmor demand retribution, hang a few bandits. Plenty of them around. Rinse and repeat as long as necessary, until the Thalmor get tired of depleting their ranks of inquisitors.

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

[DomaDoma]

Having said that - I don't see any hint in Sheogorath's dialogue that he was formerly the Hero of Kvatch, Saviour of Bruma, Champion of Cyrodiil etc.

I do. But I choose to ignore it.

So? Kill them. Kill every Thalmor who sets foot in Skyrim.

When the Thalmor demand retribution, hang a few bandits. Plenty of them around. Rinse and repeat as long as necessary, until the Thalmor get tired of depleting their ranks of inquisitors.

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

Love this.

The reason Titus isn't doing that? Probably much less to do with the Concordat than with a self-defeating sense that the Empire can't afford to lose any more provinces and Strong Central Authority is the way to prevent that. (Titus II should have been a general. All indications say his peacetime politics suck.)

[Eldan]

Should be considered, yeah. Hire a force of irregulars to patrol the borders and kill all Thalmor that try to come in officially. if the Dragonborn doesn't want to be Emperor, he can lead them.

[Cikomyr]

That might work.

Until the Thalmor insists to be escorted by Imperial contingents. Or the Thalmor literally bring their own army.

[factotum]

Having said that - I don't see any hint in Sheogorath's dialogue that he was formerly the Hero of Kvatch, Saviour of Bruma, Champion of Cyrodiil etc.

I think the main evidence for that doesn't come from his dialog. The Sheogorath you meet in Skyrim appears to be blind, for instance, which I think is something that happens to the Hero of Kvatch during the Shivering Isles plotline.

[The_Jackal]

Whatever else Balgruuf is, he is not omniscient. Do you have some evidence that he knew about Thorald Gray-Mane being kidnapped and chose to do nothing about it, or (as I think) that he simply didn't know the guy was missing?

No evidence, but I find it extremely unlikely that Idolaf was able to get better information than Balgruuf would have, and Fralia most certainly would have asked the Jarl to investigate as to Thorald's fate. So either a) he didn't bother to look, b) he looked and found what what Idolaf knew and did nothing or c) he investigated, but Tullius kept from the Jarl of Whiterun information he gave to one of his vassals. What do you think is more likely? My money is on a, because it fits in with his character of being unwilling to be placed in a position where he would need to act.

You cannot free a prisoner as a ruler withour provoking an incident. This is a job best suited for a singular infiltrator such as you.

Yes, let's not offend the kidnappers and torturers of the Thalmor, someone might get upset!

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

THIS. 1000 times this. The solution to the Skyrim crisis is to marry Elisif off to a loyal Imperial subject, have him bend the knee to Ulfric, and let them have the autonomy to choose their level of enforcement on the ban on Talos worship (which would be, conveniently, zero). But instead, Titus Mede II is a gutless softsword, and would rather be the instrument of Thalmor tyranny than stand up to them.

Spoiler

Show

It's no wonder his own councilors conspired to have him killed

[Crow]

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

Boom. This. :)

Should be considered, yeah. Hire a force of irregulars to patrol the borders and kill all Thalmor that try to come in officially. if the Dragonborn doesn't want to be Emperor, he can lead them.

If there's anything I know; It's that the dragonborn LOVES killing Thalmor.

[DomaDoma]

No evidence, but I find it extremely unlikely that Idolaf was able to get better information than Balgruuf would have, and Fralia most certainly would have asked the Jarl to investigate as to Thorald's fate. So either a) he didn't bother to look, b) he looked and found what what Idolaf knew and did nothing or c) he investigated, but Tullius kept from the Jarl of Whiterun information he gave to one of his vassals. What do you think is more likely? My money is on a, because it fits in with his character of being unwilling to be placed in a position where he would need to act.

All I know is, the Gray-Manes' big lead seems to be the Battle-Borns and the Jarl doesn't enter into it. File it under "this is Elder Scrolls and the PC has a monopoly on arduous quests."

Yes, let's not offend the kidnappers and torturers of the Thalmor, someone might get upset!

He's not really in a position secure enough to upset those someones with action so overt. And not just the Thalmor. If he dispatched a mass of guards to march past Solitude, to storm the gates of Northwatch Keep, to rescue a Stormcloak, it would look very much like he was weighing in with Ulfric.

Of course, given the immense improbability that Hammerfell is hunting down its own first citizens for speaking out against the Thalmor, I think only Irileth's eagle eye has kept Balgruuf from assassination already.

[Aux-Ash]

So? Kill them. Kill every Thalmor who sets foot in Skyrim.

When the Thalmor demand retribution, hang a few bandits. Plenty of them around. Rinse and repeat as long as necessary, until the Thalmor get tired of depleting their ranks of inquisitors.

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

This is playing with extremely high stakes though. Any state, no matter which one it is, will insist upon the security of it's citizens/agents. If the empire cannot or will not protect the Thalmor in Skyrim then the Dominion will insist to be allowed to protect their own. If the empire allows it, then the Thalmor will invade SKyrim in force and try to occupy the cities that oppose them. If they don't then they've just handed the Dominion a cause of war.

Basically... the empire have to enforce the Thalmor's will on Skyrim or bet on the fact that the Dominion, which not too long ago beat the empire, won't be able to go to war over it.

Refusing is the geopolitical equalient of going All in with only a low pair on hand.

[The_Jackal]

This is playing with extremely high stakes though. Any state, no matter which one it is, will insist upon the security of it's citizens/agents. If the empire cannot or will not protect the Thalmor in Skyrim then the Dominion will insist to be allowed to protect their own. If the empire allows it, then the Thalmor will invade SKyrim in force and try to occupy the cities that oppose them. If they don't then they've just handed the Dominion a cause of war.

Basically... the empire have to enforce the Thalmor's will on Skyrim or bet on the fact that the Dominion, which not too long ago beat the empire, won't be able to go to war over it.

Refusing is the geopolitical equalient of going All in with only a low pair on hand.

The problem is that the Thalmor running their little inquisition across the Empire already IS casus belli, and anyone pretending it isn't is indulging in weapons-grade self-delusion. That's the problem with the White-Gold Concordat; it effectively makes the Empire a proxy-state of the Thalmor. If that's the limit of Titus Mede II's leadership, then Hammerfell, Skyrim and the rest of the constituents of the Empire are better off without him.

Also, the Thalmor didn't beat the Empire, they fought each other to exhaustion, which was how the Concordat was reached. If the Thalmor really are strong enough to sweep away the Imperial Army, then why bother to negotiate at all? Just bulldoze Cyrodil and start the wholesale slaughter of the helpless lands of the Empire. You want to stop the worship of Talos? Great, kill all humans, and there will no longer be any Talos worship. Problem solved.

But they didn't, so I think it's safe to say that the outcome of renewed war between the Thalmor and the Empire would not be a foregone conclusion. And if fighting a war with the Thalmor is a bad idea, then I fail to see how continuing to stand by policies which are tearing your empire apart is a good one.

He's not really in a position secure enough to upset those someones with action so overt. And not just the Thalmor. If he dispatched a mass of guards to march past Solitude, to storm the gates of Northwatch Keep, to rescue a Stormcloak, it would look very much like he was weighing in with Ulfric.

Of course, given the immense improbability that Hammerfell is hunting down its own first citizens for speaking out against the Thalmor, I think only Irileth's eagle eye has kept Balgruuf from assassination already.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[factotum]

But they didn't, so I think it's safe to say that the outcome of renewed war between the Thalmor and the Empire would not be a foregone conclusion. And if fighting a war with the Thalmor is a bad idea, then I fail to see how continuing to stand by policies which are tearing your empire apart is a good one.

Which is something you can confidently say, knowing you have more information on this than any of the characters you're talking about. Titus Medes doesn't have the luxury of looking at the Elder Scrolls wiki and saying, "Hold on a sec, the Thalmor were just as badly beat up as we were at the end of the last war, they'll be easy pickings now!". Not to mention that he has to worry about people getting killed if he gets it wrong, which is another problem you don't have.

[veti]

Of course, given the immense improbability that Hammerfell is hunting down its own first citizens for speaking out against the Thalmor, I think only Irileth's eagle eye has kept Balgruuf from assassination already.

If you're referring to the Alik'r ("Curved. Swords.") warriors, I'm pretty sure they're not hunting down anyone for speaking out against the Thalmor. They're hunting a war criminal for selling out a city to the Thalmor.

[Crow]

Which is something you can confidently say, knowing you have more information on this than any of the characters you're talking about. Titus Medes doesn't have the luxury of looking at the Elder Scrolls wiki and saying, "Hold on a sec, the Thalmor were just as badly beat up as we were at the end of the last war, they'll be easy pickings now!". Not to mention that he has to worry about people getting killed if he gets it wrong, which is another problem you don't have.

I'd have to imagine the Empire has a pretty robust intelligence network.