The Politics of Skyrim

[Eldan]

Well, had. They got rid of it.

[The_Jackal]

Which is something you can confidently say, knowing you have more information on this than any of the characters you're talking about. Titus Medes doesn't have the luxury of looking at the Elder Scrolls wiki and saying, "Hold on a sec, the Thalmor were just as badly beat up as we were at the end of the last war, they'll be easy pickings now!". Not to mention that he has to worry about people getting killed if he gets it wrong, which is another problem you don't have.

The contents of UESP are the result of distilling in-game lore, and the origins and philosophy of the Thalmor aren't exactly closely guarded secrets. Whether the war will be easy or hard is irrelevant: the Thalmor are your real enemy, and your appeasement of their demands is only weakening your position against them. Is any of this in doubt? Is the Empire stronger or weaker with Hammerfell and Skyrim on their side? Since the Thalmor ultimate aim is, at the very least, the total subjugation of mankind under their rule, it's very hard to argue that there's any set of treaty conditions which won't simply be a prelude to further aggression. Take Ondolemar's own words, "There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last."

So, bottom line, Titus Mede II is either craven, stupid, or probably both, and he's leading his realm to ruin.

[DomaDoma]

Look, I'm all for openly standing on principle and damn the torpedoes, as a private citizen who'll only hurt myself anyway. But if I were a head of state, that'd be a different matter entirely.

I'm absolutely certain that I would have done worse than Titus did. Would I have done better at building up the military ahead of time? Probably not. Would I pay the Dane-geld the first time around? Hell no. Would I volunteer the suggestion that we abandon the city? Equally strong hell no. And at that point, well, the game is up.

I take this tack because you're all for an independent Skyrim. And an independent Skyrim's position, alienated from Imperial supply and the Dunmer, Khajiit and Argonians for good measure, isn't exactly what you'd call strong. Point fingers at Titus all you like for not trading to the rebel nation, but facts are facts. The point, as you said, is to win this.

And everyone in the canonical storyline is missing that point. So, yeah.

Crow, as far as we know from the game, the Empire's foreign intelligence network was completely obliterated in 171, and their domestic intelligence network has a decent force to it but is strictly middling as such organizations go. I like to think that there are Dominion dissidents volunteering information, but still, a poor substitute for the Blades.

Veti: Yup. No question about it, in my view. The ambiguity people seem to hold about the Saadia question is just so strange to me, but then I'm the GITP Resident Hammerfell Partisan, so...

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Re: Saadia - there are actually FOUR possibilites when you think about it:

1.) Kematu is working for the Thalmor, and Saadia worked against them
2.) Saadia is working for the Thalmor, and Kematu is working against them
3.) BOTH Saadia and Kematu work(ed) for the Thalmor, but Saadia is no longer useful and Kematu was sent to tie up loose ends
4.) NEITHER Saadia or Kematu worked for the Thalmor; he's after her for some other reason and both sides just name-drop the Thalmor to win sympathy from the locals.

For myself, Kematu and company don't seem well-informed enough to be Thalmor agents, except possibly at the absolute bottom-most tier. The Thalmor intelligence network was good enough to let them smash the Blades, whereas Kematu...well, witness the common encounter where Kematu's minions accost random Redguard women in the wilderness. They also stick out too much to be useful, bumbling over local laws and getting themselves arrested. This is not how the Thalmor do things. If the Thalmor actually wanted Saadia, they have perfectly competent assassins (like they send after Malborn) and random Justiciar squads (like they send after the player character). Even if they can't just swoop into Whiterun and arrest her with the claim she's a Talos worshipper, there are more efficient ways to get her out of town.

He's not really in a position secure enough to upset those someones with action so overt. And not just the Thalmor. If he dispatched a mass of guards to march past Solitude, to storm the gates of Northwatch Keep, to rescue a Stormcloak, it would look very much like he was weighing in with Ulfric.

Let's not forget that the Jarl of Solitude (well, okay, her advisers) and local law enforcement would probably object to a large, heavily armed force showing up over their border, even if there was no civil war going on!

[NEO|Phyte]

As flawed as the empire's choices may be, Ulfric hasn't exactly made a better show of things.

Not sure if there's actual ingame lore saying as much or if it was just speculation by people, but supposedly the reason the Thalmor have such a burr up their ass about Talos worship is because Ulfric went and made a big deal about "hey guys please don't worship Talos wink wink" until the Thalmor noticed that the ban wasn't exactly being enforced.

From there, talking to people in the Blue Palace tells us that Torygg was sympathetic to Ulfric, and would most likely have gone along with his plan to leave the Empire, but then Ulfric shows up and kills him instead, sparking the civil war mess.

He is a rather strong contender for being everything wrong with Skyrim, and to top it off, neither him nor his captured companions were willing to spare a second to free your hands after Alduin turned up and everyone ducked into a tower.

[DomaDoma]

It's not the reason they have such a burr up their ass about Talos worship, according to out-of-game lore accepted by pretty much everyone (second entry here), but it is pretty clear that Ulfric's more overt defiance of the Concordat did give Skyrim a good bit of grief.

There are, of course, good cases to be made on both sides for whose fault that is, exactly. That's how the Thalmor got their civil war.

[veti]

Re: Saadia - there are actually FOUR possibilites when you think about it:

1.) Kematu is working for the Thalmor, and Saadia worked against them
2.) Saadia is working for the Thalmor, and Kematu is working against them
3.) BOTH Saadia and Kematu work(ed) for the Thalmor, but Saadia is no longer useful and Kematu was sent to tie up loose ends
4.) NEITHER Saadia or Kematu worked for the Thalmor; he's after her for some other reason and both sides just name-drop the Thalmor to win sympathy from the locals.

Yeah, that's all true.

The first time I ran into this quest, my first instinct was to believe Saadia. After all, she's a stereotypical Damsel in Distress, right? This is Skyrim, how much subtlety and misdirection should we expect exactly?

Turns out, more than I gave it credit for.

I think what makes me most inclined to believe Kematu is that - when his minions are combing the land, harrassing innocent Redguard women all over, they're remarkably civil about it. From Thalmor agents, I'd expect them to knock the suspect out, tie her up and march her off to somewhere - convenient, to ask their questions. But the Alik'r just stand about on the road, talking, in perfectly reasonable voices, without even drawing their swords.

Interestingly, from in-game evidence, we can know that both Saadia and Kematu are lying to us on at least one score each. Saadia says that the people looking for her will give up when Kematu is killed, but that's not true. Kematu says that Saadia will be taken back to Hammerfell for trial, but her burial urn appears in Whiterun catacombs.

[Aux-Ash]

The contents of UESP are the result of distilling in-game lore, and the origins and philosophy of the Thalmor aren't exactly closely guarded secrets. Whether the war will be easy or hard is irrelevant: the Thalmor are your real enemy, and your appeasement of their demands is only weakening your position against them. Is any of this in doubt? Is the Empire stronger or weaker with Hammerfell and Skyrim on their side? Since the Thalmor ultimate aim is, at the very least, the total subjugation of mankind under their rule, it's very hard to argue that there's any set of treaty conditions which won't simply be a prelude to further aggression. Take Ondolemar's own words, "There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last."

So, bottom line, Titus Mede II is either craven, stupid, or probably both, and he's leading his realm to ruin.

Yes, the Thalmor were the real enemy, the concordat is unteneable and another war is coming and yes, we do know that they were spent. But when the White-Gold concordat was signed the empire had just spent it's last strength reclaiming the imperial capital after a full year of aldmeri occupation. Titus Mede II is hardly a fantastic leader for the empire but at the time he really did not have the luxury of choice. He had nothing left with which to bet the future of the empire on.

For all intents and purposes the concordat wasn't a peace treaty, it was a surrender. And remember, the dominion might have been exhausted as well but they still had the strength to keep fighting in Hammerfall for another five years.

The empire hasn't recovered from all that yet. Maybe the dominion hasn't either, but like I and some others said: that's a pretty bold thing to bet on.

[DomaDoma]

And let me highlight that for those of you who haven't listened to me yammer about this topic on the main TES thread:

The initial purpose of the Great War was to conquer Hammerfell.

After coming to a stalemate against the Empire, the Dominion still spent five years in a brutal, scorched-earth, last-ditch effort to conquer Hammerfell.

This is probably the main reason why. (Non-Oblivion players probably want to skip over the entry on the White-Gold Tower; suffice to say it's of a piece with most of the rest.)

[Ailurus]

Yes, the Thalmor were the real enemy, the concordat is unteneable and another war is coming and yes, we do know that they were spent. But when the White-Gold concordat was signed the empire had just spent it's last strength reclaiming the imperial capital after a full year of aldmeri occupation. Titus Mede II is hardly a fantastic leader for the empire but at the time he really did not have the luxury of choice. He had nothing left with which to bet the future of the empire on.

But what the Empire is doing in Skyrim is the exact opposite of a logical way of preparing for a future war. Everyone says that the empire needs to be 'united', but do you really think that Ulfric is stupid enough to let the Thalmor kill everyone else piecemeal if another invasion is launched (especially if Titus had just let them go)? And how does it benefit men to have the Empire bleeding (more than) a third of it's remaining territory, killing lots of veterans who fought the Thalmor, and making the people who are most opposed to the Thalmor think the Empire doesn't care about their thoughts? At the time of Skyrim, the 'Empire' consists of Skyrim (civil war), High Rock (major cities being sacked if not conquered by pirates, and Forsworn troubles), and Cyrodiil (drug wars, and probably still rebuilding the southern parts from the Thalmor invasion). What in that is worth saving that could not be accomplished by a military agreement to fight the Thalmor if they return rather than fighting a civil war?

For all intents and purposes the concordat wasn't a peace treaty, it was a surrender. And remember, the dominion might have been exhausted as well but they still had the strength to keep fighting in Hammerfall for another five years.

The empire hasn't recovered from all that yet. Maybe the dominion hasn't either, but like I and some others said: that's a pretty bold thing to bet on.

And the Redguards beat them on their own. Granted, deserts do likely constitute a solid home-field advantage but the Thalmor had half a decade to throw their full strength against one province and lost. So, it's logical to assume that they were as bad if not worse off than the Empire was. And, given their fascination with pure blood and past practices of infanticide it's all but guaranteed that it will be a long time before lots of Altmer are ready to go again.

That said, I am not advocating that someone try to launch an invasion of them right away. Trying to go after the Summerset Isles directly is likely an exercise in futility (even Tiber Septim needed the Numidium to do it the first time), and only an idiot goes into Valenwood without lots of preparation. However, all evidence in-game suggests that the Thalmor coalition is very weak, and there's plenty of ways to stir the pot and keep them busy while a long-term solution is built up.

• The only reason Elsweyr joined the Dominion was because the Thalmor convinced them that they were responsible for bringing back the moons. If someone finds out what really happened during the Void Nights, or starts convincing Khajiit that the Thalmor lied to them about saving the moons (which is quite probably what happened), then the Thalmor have a huge problem on their hands. You do NOT mess with the moons unless you want lots of angry cat-people coming for you.
• The Dominion taking over Valenwood in the first place was accompanied by a civil war, and from what we see there are many Bosmer who are extremely unhappy the Thalmor as is. If there's already Bosmer agents acting as spies for the Blades, starting up a resistance movement (if one doesn't exist already) should be easy enough.
• The Thalmor were a minority faction pre-Oblivion Crisis, and they just lost two wars (or one really big two-part war, depending on how you look at it). And a lot of the most fanatical Thalmor are being sent out of the Dominion to police the Empire. Any time a fanatical minority faction is ruling a group there's inevitably lots of resentment at home.

With a little creativity and luck, it should be easy to keep the Thalmor on-edge if not break them apart outright more than long enough to come up with a long-term solution. (Such as, maybe, a Dragonborn booting Titus off the throne, working to bring the Empire back together culturally, start standing up to the Thalmor and work to bring Hammerfall back into the fold).

[Kareeah_Indaga]

And the Redguards beat them on their own. Granted, deserts do likely constitute a solid home-field advantage but the Thalmor had half a decade to throw their full strength against one province and lost. So, it's logical to assume that they were as bad if not worse off than the Empire was. And, given their fascination with pure blood and past practices of infanticide it's all but guaranteed that it will be a long time before lots of Altmer are ready to go again.

I've brought this up before, but what if the Thalmor let the Redguards win? There's a portal in some Ayleid ruins that leads from Grahtwood straight to the Alik'r. If they really wanted Hammerfell RIGHT NOW, rather than wait a little while the non-Dominion nations build up resentment for each other, why didn't they use it? All they need to do is wait for the Crown/Forebear rivalry to start up again, and then they've got Skyrim Civil War 2: Hammerfell edition but with armies instead of Justiciar squads waiting in the wings.

Also, the Dominion doesn't need the small numbers of Altmer to rebound--if they're using the same practices as the First Aldmeri Dominion, the Bosmer are the ones who make up most of their footsoldiers, and they breed more readily. Notice the complete lack of Bosmer in those Justiciar patrols we slaughter? We aren't even chipping away at the Dominion's main force.

[The_Jackal]

I've brought this up before, but what if the Thalmor let the Redguards win? There's a portal in some Ayleid ruins that leads from Grahtwood straight to the Alik'r. If they really wanted Hammerfell RIGHT NOW, rather than wait a little while the non-Dominion nations build up resentment for each other, why didn't they use it? All they need to do is wait for the Crown/Forebear rivalry to start up again, and then they've got Skyrim Civil War 2: Hammerfell edition but with armies instead of Justiciar squads waiting in the wings.

Also, the Dominion doesn't need the small numbers of Altmer to rebound--if they're using the same practices as the First Aldmeri Dominion, the Bosmer are the ones who make up most of their footsoldiers, and they breed more readily. Notice the complete lack of Bosmer in those Justiciar patrols we slaughter? We aren't even chipping away at the Dominion's main force.

Two problems with that notion. One, flies in the face of the Thalmor's core philosophy, "Mer > Men". Two, your source stipulates that they breed fast for Elves. And the notion that the Dominion can better afford to lose their elite troops than their cannon fodder is also... suspect. But this is all moot. The point isn't whether a war against the Dominion can be won, the point is whether it should be waged. The answer to that question is, for the Empire, unequivocally yes. They have NOTHING to lose that delaying won't lose them with more certainty.

[DomaDoma]

However, all evidence in-game suggests that the Thalmor coalition is very weak, and there's plenty of ways to stir the pot and keep them busy while a long-term solution is built up.

• The only reason Elsweyr joined the Dominion was because the Thalmor convinced them that they were responsible for bringing back the moons. If someone finds out what really happened during the Void Nights, or starts convincing Khajiit that the Thalmor lied to them about saving the moons (which is quite probably what happened), then the Thalmor have a huge problem on their hands. You do NOT mess with the moons unless you want lots of angry cat-people coming for you.
• The Dominion taking over Valenwood in the first place was accompanied by a civil war, and from what we see there are many Bosmer who are extremely unhappy the Thalmor as is. If there's already Bosmer agents acting as spies for the Blades, starting up a resistance movement (if one doesn't exist already) should be easy enough.
• The Thalmor were a minority faction pre-Oblivion Crisis, and they just lost two wars (or one really big two-part war, depending on how you look at it). And a lot of the most fanatical Thalmor are being sent out of the Dominion to police the Empire. Any time a fanatical minority faction is ruling a group there's inevitably lots of resentment at home.

With a little creativity and luck, it should be easy to keep the Thalmor on-edge if not break them apart outright more than long enough to come up with a long-term solution. (Such as, maybe, a Dragonborn booting Titus off the throne, working to bring the Empire back together culturally, start standing up to the Thalmor and work to bring Hammerfall back into the fold).

And let's not forget the rift within the Thalmor themselves: The political Thalmor want to rule the world and subjugate the lesser races under a golden boot. The theological Thalmor want there to be no physical world, and no lesser races to be at odds against in the first place. If the former get wind that the latter are making serious progress toward their goal, I don't think they would like that one bit.

Really, if we're assuming Skyrim happened, divide-and-conquer tactics are the only remaining way to give humanity any kind of chance; the political strength of their own nation-states certainly isn't going to cut it. Fortunately, the Thalmor have had a monopoly on divide-and-conquer for so long that they might well be assuming no one else can even play that game.

[Aux-Ash]

Ailurus:

Yes, what the empire is doing is the complete opposite from gearing up for the next big war. But the Empire hasn't so much chosen this present as much as lost control over the direction in which it is heading. It isn't rearming... it's putting out fires. I agree that the Thalmor and the dominion aren't in any position to launch a war now. But neither is the empire in a position to provoke one. You listed all the problems the empire has, and it can barely handle those threats. What chance could they possibly have against the Thalmor in the state they're currently in?

The Thalmor are bluffing, and the empire probably suspects they are. But they cannot risk being wrong.

I agree though, that the Dominion is more brittle than it seems at first glance. They're not invincible or unstoppable, and most likely they know it too. Hence why they play such a high stakes and aggressive game. They keep pushing the empire because they cannot risk the empire pushing them. If they allow the empire to recover, it's highly unlikely they'll come out the victor.

[veti]

Yes, what the empire is doing is the complete opposite from gearing up for the next big war. But the Empire hasn't so much chosen this present as much as lost control over the direction in which it is heading. It isn't rearming... it's putting out fires.

By the time-honoured technique of spraying them with paraffin, perhaps? There wouldn't be a fire in Skyrim, but for the Empire muscling in on its internal politics.

I agree that the Thalmor and the dominion aren't in any position to launch a war now. But neither is the empire in a position to provoke one. You listed all the problems the empire has, and it can barely handle those threats. What chance could they possibly have against the Thalmor in the state they're currently in?

When your own country is fractious and squabbling, that's the perfect time to provoke a war with a common enemy. If there's anything that could unite the three remaining provinces of the Empire, and probably get Hammerfell back on side (not back into the Empire, but into at least a state of co-operation with it), it's war with the Dominion.

The Thalmor are bluffing, and the empire probably suspects they are. But they cannot risk being wrong.

Quite the opposite, I think. They must risk being wrong. Their choices aren't between war and peace, they're between "possible defeat now" and "certain defeat later". They're standing on a sinking ship, and refusing to get into the lifeboat on the grounds that they can't be sure it doesn't have a hole in it. Well, maybe it does and maybe it doesn't, but you know for damnsure that this tub has one, so what have you got to lose?

[DomaDoma]

Quite the opposite, I think. They must risk being wrong. Their choices aren't between war and peace, they're between "possible defeat now" and "certain defeat later". They're standing on a sinking ship, and refusing to get into the lifeboat on the grounds that they can't be sure it doesn't have a hole in it. Well, maybe it does and maybe it doesn't, but you know for damnsure that this tub has one, so what have you got to lose?

A few years' worth of not having to think about such dreadful things, likely. Seems to be how it works in the real world.

No, you're absolutely right. I am very sorry for any wavering I have made on this point.

[Admiral Squish]

Skyrim is the biggest game my computer can handle these days, so I've been getting pretty involved in it.

I feel like the Empire gets painted in a very negative light right off the bat. People are naturally inclined to root for the underdog, and you really have to look to find the good side of the empire and the bad side of the stormcloaks. You have this long monologue from the stormcloak guy painting him as human, and then empire tries to have you executed for just crossing the border. Plus, Helgen Keep has a torture chamber. Come on, that's a little anvilicious. Personally, I always end up going with the stormcloaks in the first part, mostly because imperial light armor has a good value/weight ratio and stormcloak armor is basically worthless, but also because you can loot heavy armor from the imperials. I will admit, one's impression of the stormcloaks is soured upon arriving in Windhelm and seeing the blatant discrimination against dark elves, and Ulfric could stand to be a lot more charismatic than gruff. Still, I think almost everyone ends up running with the stormcloaks on their first playthrough.
I wish there was a little more race-based material in the game, particularly involving the conflict. Like, maybe a high elf would have to do an extra quest to prove they're not thalmor if they want to join the stormcloaks/blades, or maybe they could actually join the thalmor? Maybe stormcloaks could make disparaging remarks about non-nords, or at least mer/beast races? Maybe there could actually be some orc material beyond a convenient ebony mine, a couple followers, and a daedric artifact quest (seriously, orcs are awesome and all I want to do is take over a stronghold, is that too much to ask)?

I do think that the Empire has also chosen exactly the wrong way to unite its provinces for the coming fight. They say that they need to be unified to stand up against the Dominion, but is fighting a civil war, standing by while the thalmor inquisitors run amok, and occupying Skyrim really the best way to encourage the people there to join your cause, to fight and die for you?

[Aux-Ash]

By the time-honoured technique of spraying them with paraffin, perhaps? There wouldn't be a fire in Skyrim, but for the Empire muscling in on its internal politics.

I'd actually argue that yes, it would. The skyrim civil war isn't a result of the White-Gold concordat alone. It's roots is actually in the Forsworn uprising. This did far more to hurt the reputation of the empire in the eyes of the Nords than the treaty ever did. Why? Because the empire couldn't stop a breton rabble from taking the capitol of Skyrim. It showed all nords how increadibly weak the empire was that point.

This is also what gave Ulfric the reputation he needed to begin the rebellion in the first place. And... ironically... led to the Markarth incident... when the Thalmor pressured the empire to enforce the ban on the worship of Talos (which they hadn't enforced prior to that).

There's no doubt that the response to the Markarth incident did nothing to endear the nords to the regime of Titus Mede II. And I'd argue it's the single greatest factor in what led to the civil war as this is what made an enemy of Ulfric and a lot of nords. But... this was a response to Ulfric challenging the empire. He issued the challenge and they responded. Imprisoning him and enforced the treaty.

Finally... I suspect that Ulfric was always going to do this. He isn't a innocent little flower that just happened to have his favourite god banned. He's a cunning warlord who always was going to stir up trouble. He defied the White-Gold Concordat at the first chance he got, despite it wasn't enforced in Skyrim (yet). He killed Torygg, a young man who basically didn't stand a chance... for no reason at all except to show Skyrim that the high king couldn't even defend himself. Using him as a symbol of the empire, despite Torygg being chosen by the Skyrim jarls (personal theory: Ulfric wanted to be high king and was envious)

I'm not tring to say the empire and Titus Mede II are innocent victims in all of this. They aren't. But there was always going to be trouble in Skyrim. That's why the Thalmor let Ulfric "escape" in the first place.

so what have you got to lose?

Just the empire, which has stood for thousands of years, and the lives of thousands of subjects. I'm sure history would remember the regime as "at least they tried" and not at all like the people that destroyed the empire. No biggie, right?

I do think that the Empire has also chosen exactly the wrong way to unite its provinces for the coming fight. They say that they need to be unified to stand up against the Dominion, but is fighting a civil war, standing by while the thalmor inquisitors run amok, and occupying Skyrim really the best way to encourage the people there to join your cause, to fight and die for you?

You do realise that the alternative is letting Skyrim go (and I'm sure no Breton would see that an get any ideas. ), right? Which is still going to happen with considerable amounts of spilled blood among the nords. The current state of affairs locked themselves into place years ago.

[Mando Knight]

Because the empire couldn't stop a breton rabble from taking the capitol of Skyrim. It showed all nords how increadibly weak the empire was that point.

Istlod, Jarl of Solitude (and Torygg's father) was High King at the time Ulfric retook Markarth (the city that fell to the Reachmen) for Igmund's father. Whether he was High King before then is sketchy, depending on how long Torygg ruled before Ulfric killed him: Istlod ruled for 25 years until his death, Markarth was retaken in 4E 176, and the game begins in 4E 201.

[Admiral Squish]

I'm just saying, maybe attempt some diplomacy first. Or assassination, should that fail. Or, should that fail, entertain some more radical alternatives, like letting it go, but making sure you part on half-decent terms so you can ally with them against the Thalmor later. If the empire decides to let it go, can the dominion really say they can't? Fighting a civil war is exactly what the dominion wants, because it will deplete both forces, and further, drive a wedge between them so they won't be on good terms when the war with the dominion kicks off again. What good does holding Skyrim do if, when the dust clears, you can't get anything useful out of it?

[DomaDoma]

Just the empire, which has stood for thousands of years, and the lives of thousands of subjects. I'm sure history would remember the regime as "at least they tried" and not at all like the people that destroyed the empire. No biggie, right?

Better than being remembered as the ruler/council that just let the Empire die without making a fight of it. Which, as Veti said, is the certain ending the Empire is sliding toward through its inaction. (If there were an ideal time to take that gamble and break the Concordat, it would have been after the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai. Pretty clear at that point that the Thalmor aren't in any condition to retaliate in force.)

Of course, given what we know about the Dominion, the idea of being "remembered by history" is making serious assumptions, even leaving the theological side out of it.

[Crow]

He killed Torygg, a young man who basically didn't stand a chance... for no reason at all except to show Skyrim that the high king couldn't even defend himself.

Ulfric challenged Torygg to single combat, which was an accepted part of the nords' old traditions, to which Torygg accepted. Where things went sideways was when Ulfric used the voice to defeat Torygg. There is a good chance that had Ulfric not 'cheated', most of the Jarls would have gone along with the outcome.

[Sharoth]

Ulfric is a jerk who has power. I agree with some of what he has said, but he was willing to work with the Thalmor, so he looses all respect from my character.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Two problems with that notion. One, flies in the face of the Thalmor's core philosophy, "Mer > Men".

How so? By leaving Hammerfell be, look how much resentment was built up in the Empire! 'Well, Hammerfell did it, we totally could have won too if that Emperor (who pulled off a tricky tactical maneuver with the Imperial City that no one thought would work) hadn't given up. Never mind we never would have backed him if he wanted to continue the war right then and there, this is totally his fault!' Don't forget, patience is another thing the Dominion is very, very good with. They've been building this up since at least the Oblivion Crisis, a few more decades is nothing.

Two, your source stipulates that they breed fast for Elves. And the notion that the Dominion can better afford to lose their elite troops than their cannon fodder is also... suspect.

Who says those Justiciars are elite troops? I guarantee you if they were truly valued by the Dominion they wouldn't be slogging around a freezing tundra hunting Talos worshippers. They'd be in a cushy embassy, like Elenwen, pulling strings from there. Or back in Summerset, plotting doom. Remember the 'foot-sloggers' griping during Diplomatic Immunity? The Dominion doesn't actually care if a bunch of those guys die. If they're skilled/useful/ or otherwise competent enough to be worth keeping, they won't get killed and if they aren't, who cares? Obviously their bloodlines were sub-optimal, and now they won't persist to dilute the purity and power of the rest of the Altmer race. This is why the Dominion is dangerous.

I feel like the Empire gets painted in a very negative light right off the bat. People are naturally inclined to root for the underdog, and you really have to look to find the good side of the empire and the bad side of the stormcloaks. You have this long monologue from the stormcloak guy painting him as human, and then empire tries to have you executed for just crossing the border. Plus, Helgen Keep has a torture chamber. Come on, that's a little anvilicious.

I think, from a gameplay perspective, the game devs did that because otherwise people who played the previous games would automatically side with the Empire. After all, we've sided with them in the last two, why wouldn't we? This gives a reason why.

[Crow]

Ulfric is a jerk who has power. I agree with some of what he has said, but he was willing to work with the Thalmor, so he looses all respect from my character.

He wasn't working with the Thalmor; he was being manipulated/used by the Thalmor. Ulfric wasn't knowingly advancing the Thalmor's goals.

[Aeson]

Ulfric challenged Torygg to single combat, which was an accepted part of the nords' old traditions, to which Torygg accepted. Where things went sideways was when Ulfric used the voice to defeat Torygg. There is a good chance that had Ulfric not 'cheated', most of the Jarls would have gone along with the outcome.

One thing to remember: just because it's an accepted part of the old traditions doesn't make it honorable, even by the standards of the old tradtions. It's not at all uncommon to have "unwritten" rules about what constitutes honorable behavior, and one of those is quite often that it is dishonorable to issue a challenge that the challenged party has no reasonable chance of winning or viable way to refuse while maintaining their own honor. Ulfric challenging Torygg certainly sounds like a case where Torygg cannot refuse (due to loss of face) and also cannot reasonably be expected to win even without Ulfric using the Voice (due to greatly differing levels of skill and experience). Moreover, a sudden, unexpected challenge such as Ulfric's would only have swung the balance further in Ulfric's favor; Ulfric would have come prepared for a fight whereas Torygg, who would probably have been the loser even had he had forewarning of the challenge, would likely not have been ready for a fight, particularly not against a respected and trusted fellow nobleman who was welcomed into the hall with open arms.

Also, speaking as someone who's never played Skyrim, it would seem to me as though if Ulfric's goal were truly an independent Skyrim, convincing Torygg to declare for independence would be a far better starting point for the rebellion than killing Torygg off and declaring himself High King. Torygg presumably had the support of at least a plurality of the influential people of Skyrim at the time of the moot that selected him as High King, and as he is the legally-appointed High King under modern conventions, having his support makes it easier for people on the fence about the independence question to come down on the side of independence (because they'd be supporting their legally-appointed ruler, rather than opposing him or even being in rebellion against him). Moreover, that moot is presumably not that far in the past as Torygg is still fairly young, and so those who supported him for the High Kingship may find withdrawing their support suddenly on the question of independence problematic.

Instead, Ulfric chooses to override the moot's decision by force (and, arguably, treachery; Torygg was not expecting to be challenged to a fight to the death when Ulfric came to his hall, and so welcomed Ulfric as a friend, whereas Ulfric, who to my understanding was already the likely victor of any duel between the two, came prepared for a fight and with the intention of killing his legally-appointed liege) without first attempting diplomacy to win Torygg over to his side - and the primary decision that he overrode may well have been a decision in favor of Torygg over Ulfric as the next High King of Skyrim, depending on what the criteria for candidacy for the High Kingship are. Accepted to be within the bounds of honorable behavior set by ancient tradition or not, Ulfric acted in defiance of Skyrim's modern conventions and legal customs. Then, having removed the legally-appointed High King of Skyrim and given himself a claim to the High Kingship in accordance with ancient custom, at least by his account, Ulfric starts a rebellion cloaked in the rhetoric of Nordic nationalism and independence, which conveniently enough is likely to place him on the throne of Skyrim should it succeed, as well as remove from power many of those who most opposed his kingship and replace them people who owe Ulfric their positions. This looks like a thinly-veiled power grab, at least to me; whether or not Ulfric truly believes in Nordic nationalism and the independence of Skyrim is largely irrelevant, as he is going about pursuing it in the way most beneficial to him rather than in the way most likely to succeed.

[Crow]

I think everybody is giving Torygg too little credit (and Ulfric too much). He may be young, but fighting is a young man's game. He was certainly seen as formidable, strong, and respectable enoung to be chosen by the jarls to be their High King. It is implied that Ulfric used the voice because he wouldn't have defeated Torygg otherwise. If Ulfric would have won anyways, why use the voice, a tactic that could be seen as dishonorable, and create the extra trouble?

The other way you can go with this is that Torygg was weak; and the jarls selected him specifically because he would be easy to manipulate. Perhaps being weak and easy to manipulate is why the empire supported him. This could be likely; but if it is the case, actually makes Ulfric's case stronger.

[DomaDoma]

Kareeah, while the Thalmor ARE undeniably decades-patient, I don't think they'd whiff a victory if they could, instead, simply win. Reducing half a continent to molten glass or magical wastes or whatever the southern half of Hammerfell now looks like, and THEN fleeing, would be supreme dedication to whiffing.

Besides - I'm making assumptions about ESO here and feel free to correct me - this portal on which your theory hinges was probably not what you'd call common knowledge as of the Second Era; we're hinging on the Redguards having completely forgotten about it; and the Bosmer, simply because they live in a freaking jungle, could very well have forgotten about it almost as quickly as the Men did. In our hypothetical Elder Scrolls VI, the Thalmor will of course have discovered this portal, but the reason they didn't use it in the war against Hammerfell could be that they just didn't know about it at the time.

[Winter_Wolf]

The thing about Ulfric Stormcloak is that he's an egomaniac. Repeatedly we're told that Torygg would have (probably to almost certainly) supported Ulfric's call to secede from the Empire. Also I suspect Ulfric despised the thought of a fair fight with Torygg. If it were fair, he might've actually lost. But y'know, Art of War 101: win first then fight. Too bad he didn't plan far enough ahead to circumvent the whole civil war. Torygg's misfortune was being young in an arena (politics) where old age and treachery are virtues for longevity and success.

[Crow]

The thing about Ulfric Stormcloak is that he's an egomaniac. Repeatedly we're told that Torygg would have (probably to almost certainly) supported Ulfric's call to secede from the Empire. Also I suspect Ulfric despised the thought of a fair fight with Torygg. If it were fair, he might've actually lost. But y'know, Art of War 101: win first then fight. Too bad he didn't plan far enough ahead to circumvent the whole civil war. Torygg's misfortune was being young in an arena (politics) where old age and treachery are virtues for longevity and success.

I'd agree with this. However to paint Torygg as some sort of helpless dove as some want to do is a bit disingenuous.

I think Ulfric is hijacking the cause as a vehicle for personal aggrandizement and to push some of his own twisted beliefs. I don't however think that this means the original cause was completely wrong to begin with.