Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)

[Jachra]

Ya know, failed encounters shouldn't automatically give 0 exp. I'd say that's worth 100% of everything up to Xykon, and maybe 1% of Xykon-XP.

[Lupy]

I'm glad I'm finally read it. RC is my favorite character and now I know why he doesnt kill Xykon... And let me say I hope that he kills Xykon. Maybe with help from a certain undead... And the MitD has always been great.

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I hope that if Miko is evr rezzed that RC kills her... And that a dispell magic hits the MitD just before Xykon attacks RC...

This book was sad. It made me think less of RC, then I saw this o'l strip again.

[Max_Sinister]

I just read Strip 399 and noticed something: Haley is talking about "evil ubermagic that can do soul-binding". Doesn't that remind you of SoD too?

[FujinAkari]

I just read Strip 399 and noticed something: Haley is talking about "evil ubermagic that can do soul-binding". Doesn't that remind you of SoD too?

Indirectly.

She was talking about Soul Bind, which it isn't surprising that Xykon knows :P

[Ellen]

I have no idea if I can get the spoiler thing to work, but here goes -
and, in case it doesn't work

It didn't work, so I've edited out the spoiler. How do I hide them?

[David Argall]

I have no idea if I can get the spoiler thing to work, but here goes -
and, in case it doesn't work

It didn't work, so I've edited out the spoiler. How do I hide them?

Spoiler is [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] without the spaces.

Like this

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see?

[FujinAkari]

For future reference, anytime I see someone do something and I'm not sure how they did it, you can usually quote their post to see what they typed :)

[Ellen]

Many thanks!

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OK, first things first.

Poor Redcloak!

That said, the Dark One seems a so-so deity.

The plan, such as it is, seems based on his getting the ability to threaten the existence of gods. Not my thing, but I suppose I can see his POV. These gods did more or less betray the Goblins when they created them, and the situation hasn't improved that much over the years.

However, he also seems willing (according to RC) to risk the destruction of all Goblins (not to mention all of creation) on the (reasonable as far as it goes) theory that he would have a hand in the new creation and would be able to make things better this time around for the newly created Goblins.

Oooo-kay. A deity who is willing to risk the temporal and spiritual destruction of all those he's responsible for. I'd call that theologically disturbing.

And I'm assuming he could have had a chance to send RC a message along the lines of "Dump Xykon!" That he hasn't would support that it isn't just RC having a really bad interpretation of how his boss would like things done.

That said, onto plot points!

Since Xykon took precautions in case RC betrays him, that makes it narratively likely RC will betray him.

The real question is how that will play out and whether or not RC would survive the betrayal (and possibly being devoured).

I'd say the #1 thing likely to influence him is if his niece shows up alive. I also think it's likely she'd be on the other side.

Hey, she's lost nearly all her family because of The Plan. She's also likely being raised by humans (or somthing like) and she may also have an interest in wizardry (like her brother).

She might also be about Julia's age (or might be by relative Goblin aging standards). It seems like there's at least a fair chance she could be at Warthogs.

Where three characters are currently headed.

We've also got a precedent of Goblins with much less motivation deciding to become good as an act of rebellion.

But we know Girard's Gate will be the next. I'm betting the Goblins won't be stopped there since there's a prophecy that there will be a lot of death and destruction in the dwarven lands when a certain dwarve returns there (dead or alive).

That said, I'm wondering if Xykon knows what RC's real plan is.

He figured out - and completely checkmated - RC's attempt to control him with the talisman, so it's reasonable that he might have this worked out, too.

And that he doesn't care.

What if Xykon is shooting for godhood?

If all the deaths in the name of the Dark One raised the Dark One up to godhood, what would destroying the world - if he could ensure his soul surviving - do to the one who caused it?

Just a thought.

[Edric O]

Ok, just bought and finished reading the book, and first of all I'd like to agree with all the praise in the first 3 pages of this topic (since that is how far I've gone into it). For a humorous comic book, SoD shows amazing character development and emotional depth.

Now on to the spoilers - or rather speculations about the future:

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We can now say with absolute certainty that Redcloak will betray Xykon in the end. Redcloak's backstory merely suggests it, but the fact that Xykon put that spell on the MitD makes it narratively required for Redcloak to betray Xykon. It's just a perfect setup for a climactic scene (which will no doubt be the scene where the MitD finally reveals himself).

Now the question is, what kind of betrayal will it be? Here are a few options:

1. The Darth Vader Redemption scenario. Redcloak watches Xykon perform one act of evil that finally sends him over the edge (trying to kill his niece? committing genocide on the goblins?). Xykon then gives Redcloak an order, RC replies "MY NAME IS <?>, YOU FILTHY BONEHEAD SCUM!", then quickly picks Xykon up and throws him into an open rift to be undone by the Snarl; MitD attacks and fatally wounds RC, who dies soon thereafter but not before uttering some heroic last words. Or some other variation on this theme. The point is that RC dies trying to stop Xykon.

2. The Roy Greenhilt Persuasion scenario. Some member of the OOTS (presumably Roy) has a chance to talk to RC about his brother and the Plan, and persuades RC to give up or destroy Xykon's phylactery (which is also the Dark One's holy symbol, so in the scenario it is very likely that RC loses his faith in the Dark One).

3. The Selfish Betrayal Scenario. RC betrays Xykon for selfish or evil purposes rather than anger or desire for redemption. Perhaps it looks as though the Plan has succeeded and RC just wants to settle old scores, or perhaps he manages to find a different arcane spellcaster, better than Xykon.

What do you think? How will Redcloak betray Xykon?

[Remirach]

I've had it for a while now. I thought one of the saddest things about Redcloak's story was that

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with the death of his brother, there's no one else alive who even knows Redcloak's real name. So the fact that even "Right-Eye" repudiated him as "Redcloak" and not "brother" with his dying breath stings all the worse because that's the name he'll live and probably die with, and it's the name that marks him as Xykon's willing slave.

The other "saddest thing" was that while Redcloak was right that Right-Eye's plan wouldn't work, and might even have had the right idea to stop him (since Right-Eye was too bent on revenge to listen to reason), he didn't have to let his brother die. Even AFTER that disintegrate ray hit, he could have stabilized Right-Eye to keep him alive but out of the fight, and maybe even cast that Regeneration scroll to keep him clear of Xykon's wrath. Right-Eye would probably have never forgiven him for ruining "their one chance," but at least he'd have still been alive. But once Right-Eye declared himself an enemy of the Dark One and the Plan...

The THIRD "Saddest thing" was the circus breakout. Redcloak and Ridizak were a good team that really had rapport with each other, Right-Eye got to save the day (with cotton candy!), tMitD got a new family that wanted him around, Redcloak wanted to hang up the Plan and maybe even start up a family... and then Xykon shows up. It's the hardest section for me to re-read because it's so easy to see the "What could have beens" for Redcloak's life if it weren't for all the crap that happened along the way plus his own stubborn refusal to quit the Plan when he'd sacrificed so much already.

On things that are slightly less sad:

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I wonder if we'll ever hear of what happened to Yydranna. I don't think we've seen Xykon be friends with anyone else. (And yes technically they were lovers, but co-workers as well, and he actually respected her.)

And finally..

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If I were Right-Eye's daughter, I might hate Redcloak even before I learned he murdered my daddy in cold blood. It was his presence in the village that brought Xykon there led to their forced conscription them all. And actually along those same lines, it was the presence of the Redcloak that brought the Paladins to pre-Redcloak and Right-Eye's village, too. What has the Dark One and his high Priest EVER done for the common goblin but bring death and destruction to their doors?

[King of Nowhere]

About Redcloak betraying Xykon in the future:

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Rich built Redcloak in such a way that he could both turn or not. He is full of reedeming traits, but also of dooming traits. He's quite borderline. Actually, he was motivated by many factors, including his inner weakness. He don't want to take responsability for important decisions, but his life forced him to do.
Also, he don't really knows what good and evil really are.
I think in the end right and wrong will be clear upon him, and he will be called to make that choice he always tryed to evade. But what he will do then, nobody can tell

Also, other things I found very sad

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1) Redcloak could have been good, and he was twarted to evil. I find that really sad, is like when a great villain reach redemption, only reversed. And he became evil - sigh - by paladin's fault
2) Right-eye attempt to built a goblin civilization was doomed to failure by the beginning; sure, it had worked insofar, but sooner or later a group of schmucks would have shown and trucidated everyone for XP, without asking questions.

[Max_Sinister]

About Redcloak:

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I can't imagine a way for him to betray Xykon now - unless something happened (which I can't tell what it is) that makes him give up hope that his (crazy enough) plan could succeed, ever.

About Ydranna:

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I guess she simply died meanwhile of old age. I mean, Xykon was a youngster when he applied at Helldeathdoomfire volcano, and was very old when he became a lich, and since then, even more time has passed - enough for Right-Eye to become old himself, if only relative for goblins.

Either that, or she became some kind of undead too.

[Ellen]

On Redcloak turning on Xykon -

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I'm assuming his niece will show up and that will be a big factor.

I'm also assuming she's rebeled against everything Redcloak stands for, so she's probably at least good although I don't know if she'd gor for chaotic (because Uncle's lawful) or another alignment.

I think interaction with O-Chul is going to impact him, I just don't know how.

In a weird way, the two are actually rather alike. This is also the first time since perhaps the previous RC priest died that we've seen RC talking to someone as a real equal. O-Chul can follow RC's logic and RC can get drawn up short by O-Chul's. Even with his brother, he never had that. Although his brother grew and was arguably the wiser of the two by the end, RC kept treating him as his younger brother.

But, unless the psionic brain searches drag out a memory of O-Chul standing up to defend Goblins from unjust persecution, I just don't see RC ever forgetting O=Chul's a paladin.

The big thing Redcloak needs -

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Xykon is acting like a classic devil figure for RC. He tells him it's too late, that RC can't change because the guilt of admitting the truth - and trying to make amends - is too much. He offers following him as an alternative because he relieves RC of that guilt by not bringing it up and by giving him someone else to blame his actions on.

So, Redcloak needs a person who shows him an alternative, someone who can make him see repentence (for lack of a better word [D&D theology kind of complicates things]) as an opportunity to put down the big guilt burden, to feel good about himself and the choices he's making.

I don't know if it's even imaginable that O-Chul could be that person. I could make a really long list of problems with the idea (Number 1: O-Chul - Paladin. Number 2: Redcloak - Goblin and high priest of the Dark One).

The only reason I'm even considering it is that, right now, O-Chul is the closest person to being able to start that process.

I guess things aren't looking too good for Redcloak.

[David Argall]

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I'm assuming his niece will show up and that will be a big factor.

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Well she is a loose end and there was no reason to leave that loose end...

Still, we are running low on reasonable chances to [re]introduce her. We can always just imagine details to put her anywhere, but these are mostly a stretch. I suppose the party could encounter her in Cliffport. And if we were to use her as an excuse for Redcloak to change sides, we can force her into the final scenes. But it is work.
However, my bet is that she will just remain a loose end.

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I'm also assuming she's rebeled against everything Redcloak stands for, so she's probably at least good although I don't know if she'd gor for chaotic (because Uncle's lawful) or another alignment.

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Given she has had rather little contact with her uncle, she probably is not going to be rebelling against him. However, the chance of a good alignment is not too bad, once we get past the basic percentages. She was raised in reasonably peaceful contact with human and may have been living with them since getting away from Xykon.

[Supreme Evil]

On Redcloak-

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I get that I am supposed to sympathize with him, but this book made me hate him a lot. I mean, he killed HIS OWN FRIGGIN BROTHER! And that was to try and save XYKON! Of all people (or liches, whatever...) Die!

On Xykon-

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I always thought of him as rather funny before. Now I see he is a heartless bastard. On the other hand, I'd rather have him take over than Redcloak.

I' prefer him because he's just an easily bored mobster with immense power. If he took over, he'd get bored in a week, tops, and go do something else. If Redcloak took over, goblins would oppress all other races forever, even the members that had nothing to do with the deaths of his family.

[Ossian]

There is something in the last comic that looks like a SoD reference. Redcloak says he cutt the slippery little bugger off Xykon, referring to his heart, I take it.

Now, that confuses me a bit. Isn't redcloak somewhat too young to have done that? Hmm...well, anyway, not that I want to read any spoilers. I was wondering if it was a reference or not. Any ideas?

o.

[Tempest Fennac]

RC converted Xykon into a Lich (I can;t go into details as they would require Spoiler tags).

[Remirach]

There is something in the last comic that looks like a SoD reference. Redcloak says he cutt the slippery little bugger off Xykon, referring to his heart, I take it.

Now, that confuses me a bit. Isn't redcloak somewhat too young to have done that? Hmm...well, anyway, not that I want to read any spoilers. I was wondering if it was a reference or not. Any ideas?

o.

It's not an SoD spoiler to reveal Redcloak's age as revealed in the comic itself, so consider that 35 years has been two-thirds of his life, making him right around 50 years old. Young? Not particularly.

[factotum]

It's also not a spoiler to say that Xykon hasn't been a lich for more than a few decades, because it was shown in the online comic that Roy's father met him while he was still alive.

[Ossian]

Hello folks . I just clicked on the SOD buy button but all I could do, as tech-challenged as I am, was adding 1 copy to the basket. Anyone so kind as to explain me in bullet points what do I have to do? Create an account? Login? Click on a buton I haven't seen?

Thnx

O.

[FujinAkari]

Hello folks . I just clicked on the SOD buy button but all I could do, as tech-challenged as I am, was adding 1 copy to the basket. Anyone so kind as to explain me in bullet points what do I have to do? Create an account? Login? Click on a buton I haven't seen?

Thnx

O.

Click the Checkout Button at the upper right of the screen. Then, if you don't have an account, click the "Create New Account" section of the next screen.

[Edric O]

There is something in the last comic that looks like a SoD reference.

Trust me, there are several SoD references in the last comic, including Redcloak's "among other things." ;)

Speaking of which, has anyone else got the impression that many lines in the online comic have deeper meanings than you previously thought after reading SoD?

[Tempest Fennac]

Not until the latest one. The "This one's for you, mom", and RC's other comments about Paladins killing Goblins were self explanitary without SoD. The black gem in the comic where Xykon found that headband is pretty meaningless without SoD, but I can't think of any other references.

[Remirach]

451's "I'm turning into XYKON!" line has slightly more connotations after SoD.

[Helanna]

Wow. Just, WOW.

I never knew that such a humorous comic, could be so sad. Both OtOoPC and SoD arrived on the same day. I read the first one, I laughed, it was great. I got depressed a while after, so I figure, hey, I'll read SoD! That'll cheer me up! Then I am treated to

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RC's village being slaughtered, the remainder fighting a hopeless battle, Xykon being turned into a lich, RC losing his chance of happiness in his brother's village, RC having to kill and reanimate his brother, and then to top it all off, Xykon's closing speech there.

Well, that certainly cheered me up. It doesn't help that Redcloak is my favorite character, and he has such a sad story.

That book was seriously amazing though.

[Crazy Slasher]

Last page? I cried.

Seriously. For five minutes.

[Tempest Fennac]

To be fair, SoD was never going to be a happy book considering what we knew about RC's past from the main comic (I really liked Xykon's speeches at the end if I'm honest).

[King of Nowhere]

After reading it first, I needed to read all No cure for the paladin blues to get sadness away.

[Catskin]

First, I want to add my praise to the other voices of praise: very funny, engaging, exciting, moving comic!

Second, I want to confess that not only have I not read every page of this thread, I also have a feeling I just missed something fairly obvious in the comic (SoD and on-line). What ever the reason, I'm a little confused.

I'm not sure my confusion needs to be spoilered, but:

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I'm still a little confused by the difference between a rift and a gate. The Dark One commanded his servants to sieze the rift that the goblin fell into with the chicken, right? Haven't they seized two rifts now? I'm unclear why they need a gate around their rift, or--more likely--did I misunderstand.

While I'm here, could someone clarify what RC is hoping? Am I right that he thinks that by combining his divine power with Xykon's arcane power, they might be able to control the release and capture of the Snarl? So it would be like: release Snarl in Thor's chamber for a little while then imprison him again?

[Cestrian]

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I'm still a little confused by the difference between a rift and a gate. The Dark One commanded his servants to sieze the rift that the goblin fell into with the chicken, right? Haven't they seized two rifts now? I'm unclear why they need a gate around their rift, or--more likely--did I misunderstand.

While I'm here, could someone clarify what RC is hoping? Am I right that he thinks that by combining his divine power with Xykon's arcane power, they might be able to control the release and capture of the Snarl? So it would be like: release Snarl in Thor's chamber for a little while then imprison him again?

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I think the timeline goes like this. The goblin with the chicken discovers the rift. The dark one sends the goblins to seize it but they are stopped by the order of the scribble running around trying to protect the rifts. Dorukan and Lirian then build a bunch of gates to control the rift and prevent them expanding and so releasing the snarl. Meanwhile Soon, having been warned about the goblin's plans from their first encounter, sends his crusades after the redcloaks to stop them from attacking any of the gates.

Recloak does manage to grab a rift, of course, after he recruits Xykon but each time he gets one the gate is destroyed before he can complete the rituals and he doesn't know enough in order to rebuild them. He needs the gate becasue the gate can be controlled by magic but the rift can't. He can shift the gate's postion thus, hopefully, shifting the rifts posiiton and so allowing the snarl to pop up in different planes. Without the gate to control the rift, you can't do this. With it you've got an unstoppable assassin you can release into the throne rooms of anyone who doesn't cooperate with you.

Of course, there's no guarentee that that will work. First the Snarl might not be able to recognise that the rift is open once you shift the gate, certainly it doesn't seem to realise when the gates are destroyed. Secondly, as you point out, I'm not sure you'd be able to re trap the snarl once you released it. Though possibly it won't be entirely released into the heavens just enough of it to kill the gods. Still as a bargaining tool it's not bad.