Class and Level Geekery II

[Aquillion]

Elan either has Major Image, or more likely Persistant Image (as PI doesn't need concentration). This might point to Elan being ECl 14 (B13/DS1) Which might make everyone else 14th?

That might help explain V's spells-per-day conundrum. They all seem to have levelled up, probably by their shenanigans with the Linear Guild.

It might, but why did V buff only 13 soldiers at the breach in the wall if (s)he is level 14?

Elan did have a solo adventure, during which he unquestionably gained a level. Given that nobody else was doing solo stuff at the time, and there hasn't been much between then and the current bit, it' s hardly a stretch to say that he's a level above everyone else at the moment.

Which must have pissed Roy off immensely.

[pathanos]

i know this has probably been asked before but how many times have they all leveled and what episodes?

[baerdith]

The problem with Persistent Image is that it follows a predetermined script, while Elan was cleraly altering it after the casting.

So, while technically Major Image should not have produced intelligible speech, I think, since the speech was only included for humor's sake, it was more likely to have been major image than persistent image. If Elan later casts a 5th level spell without increasing bardic class level, then I'll rethink that decision.

While I'll admit that the speech could be written off as humor, but where does it say that a script cannot be changed? The spell simply says that the Image can follow the script without concentrating on it. What if you concentrate on it again? Can you not change the script?

[silvadel]

Well if roy is resurrected he will not only be one level lower than everyone (and maybe 2 below elan) BUT he could be an additional level down if the oots gain a level from the victory and he doesnt share in it.

[Wrecan]

Unlike other figments (like silent image and major image), persistent image does not have a duration of Concentration, indicating that you cannot Concentrate on it once it has been cast. In that sense, it is like the 6th level Wizard spell programmed image, except persistent image appears immediately and programmed image appears only after a triggering event.

[fractal]

I apologize for not reading the entire thread, but I assume that to some extent the character stats on the first page summarize the consensus. Anyway, it's indicated by strip 453 that Hinjo has 3 attacks; therefore, he's probably level 11-13 somewhere (and not 6-10 as suggested in the post describing his stats).

His attack in strip 409 appears to me to be only a single swing, despite the double arc showing motion. (Otherwise, we might guess he'd leveled since then, but as it is, I don't think it's evidence of anything.)

[baerdith]

Unlike other figments (like silent image and major image), persistent image does not have a duration of Concentration, indicating that you cannot Concentrate on it once it has been cast. In that sense, it is like the 6th level Wizard spell programmed image, except persistent image appears immediately and programmed image appears only after a triggering event.

And unlike the other Image spells PI actually says "Intelligible speech" the others don't.

[Wrecan]

Which you admit could be written off as humor. And that's what I'm doing.

Your version makes us assume that Elan gained a level of bard (in addition to a level of Dashing Swordsman) when we weren't looking and doesn't comport with the spell description. My version fits with Elan's stats as is and doesn't comport with the spell description.

I'm applying Ockham's Razor. Yours requires two assumptions and mine one. Until we get more info, I'm logging the spell as major image.

[Aquillion]

Which you admit could be written off as humor. And that's what I'm doing.

Your version makes us assume that Elan gained a level of bard (in addition to a level of Dashing Swordsman) when we weren't looking and doesn't comport with the spell description. My version fits with Elan's stats as is and doesn't comport with the spell description.

I'm applying Ockham's Razor. Yours requires two assumptions and mine one. Until we get more info, I'm logging the spell as major image.

Is Dashing Swordsman an actual PRC? If not, it might advance spellcasting.

...which would be horribly broken, granted. But it's not like it wasn't already.

[Glorfindel]

The Dashing Swordsman was invented especially for this comic by The Giant. It doesn't appear anywhere else. I don't think that it advanced bard spellcasting. I'm not even sure Julio Scoundrel has bard levels.

[baerdith]

Which you admit could be written off as humor. And that's what I'm doing.

Your version makes us assume that Elan gained a level of bard (in addition to a level of Dashing Swordsman) when we weren't looking and doesn't comport with the spell description. My version fits with Elan's stats as is and doesn't comport with the spell description.

I'm applying Ockham's Razor. Yours requires two assumptions and mine one. Until we get more info, I'm logging the spell as major image.

Well the assumption is that the party is 13th level, so Elan would have been 13th level BEFORE Dashing Swordsman. He GAINED xp and obviously a level to take DS.

So unless you are saying that Elan is a level behind everyone else, and remember he *dinged* at the same time......

[fractal]

Well the assumption is that the party is 13th level, so Elan would have been 13th level BEFORE Dashing Swordsman. He GAINED xp and obviously a level to take DS.

So unless you are saying that Elan is a level behind everyone else, and remember he *dinged* at the same time......

My assumption is that they dinged in Azure City (having beaten their Linear Guild foes and the giant bird, etc), while Elan dinged on his side quest. Everyone advanced to 13th at the same time.

[pathanos]

The Dashing Swordsman was invented especially for this comic by The Giant. It doesn't appear anywhere else. I don't think that it advanced bard spellcasting. I'm not even sure Julio Scoundrel has bard levels.

you know dashing swordsman does really only sound like swashbuckler and bard class merged and if that was the case wouldnt that effectively make him a level 13? dashing swordsman?

[Sir_Norbert]

And unlike the other Image spells PI actually says "Intelligible speech" the others don't.

Major image doesn't say that it can't include intelligible speech. Minor image allows sound but specifically disallows intelligible speech. I would interpret this to mean that major image allows it.

[Wrecan]

Well the assumption is that the party is 13th level

No, the assumoption is they became 13th level some time between the trial and the Prestige Class. So Elan spent his 13th class level on the PrC and everyone else appears to have increased their base class. (We don't know where Belkar spent his class level, or even if he went up, given that he is suffering an XP penalty.)

I am not assuming Elan is a level ahead of the party.

[Kreistor]

Sir Norbert, baerdith quotes th "figment" section from the SRD above. That does say that unless the spell description says it produces speech, it doesn't.

However, that is in a completely different part of the book from the spells. You have to go seek it out. The Giant has made mistakes before, and it's very easy to get something like this wrong from memory. I had forgotten that little detail, myself.

So it comes down to the question: is the Giant a Rules Lawyer?

Monte Cook, one of the authors of DnD, says that he is not his game group's Rules Lawyer. He remembers so many versions of the rules, he can't keep the ones they chose in his head, so one of his players who has only seen the published rules is their Lawyer.

The Giant is also a creator. He writes for WotC. I would not be in the least bit surprised that he is not a Rules Lawyer, since that might hamper his creative process.

So, that he just read the spell description and not the figment description is hardly surprising. It's more likely that he did that, thus resulting in Major Image making speech, than he read just the figment description, which results in Persistent Image being changed on the fly.

[BurntOfferings]

I don't buy that Belkar has Improved Sunder and Power Attack. Anyone can make a sunder attempt, and I'm guessing that either the hydra missed (it's a five-headed hydra, its attacks are only at +6), or the Giant just didn't bother with it. As for Power Attack, it's useless for the Belkster since he's wielding light weapons.

[Sir_Norbert]

Uh, about Redcloak's deity not being a generic D&D character because the Giant hasn't used generic D&D deities, look up Tiamat. Here's the proof of Tiamat being used.

I know I'm a bit late pointing this out, but I didn't know about it myself until it was linked in another thread just now -- here the Giant explicitly states he doesn't use the generic D&D deities, and why.

[Wrecan]

As for Power Attack, it's useless for the Belkster since he's wielding light weapons.

While true, I don't think Belkar could have attacked this hydra without it.

The hydra would get an AoO with every head. And Belkar kept sundering heads until it fainted. By then, it seemed to have at least 40 heads. So from 5 heads to 40 is 35 rounds (18 if he sundered two a round every round). Even with only a +6 attack bonus, the hydra should have attacked him with AoOs more than a dozen times! (And that doesn't include the normal full attacks it would have managed.)

So I don't think Belkar would have tried this without Improved Sunder.

Let's just say that, between two-weapon dagger fighting, power attack, halfling ranger, and XP penalties for mutli-classing, Belkar is not a very optimized character.

[PsyBlade]

My opinion on the Illusion spell Elan used: The speech wasn't intelligent, thus while it was coherent, it didn't break the rule. While that's stretching the rules a bit, it's good enough for some laid back DMs, and me.

[BurntOfferings]

While true, I don't think Belkar could have attacked this hydra without it.

The hydra would get an AoO with every head. And Belkar kept sundering heads until it fainted. By then, it seemed to have at least 40 heads. So from 5 heads to 40 is 35 rounds (18 if he sundered two a round every round). Even with only a +6 attack bonus, the hydra should have attacked him with AoOs more than a dozen times! (And that doesn't include the normal full attacks it would have managed.)

So I don't think Belkar would have tried this without Improved Sunder.

Let's just say that, between two-weapon dagger fighting, power attack, halfling ranger, and XP penalties for mutli-classing, Belkar is not a very optimized character.

You're probably right, Belkar is much too wise and level-headed to ever attack a hydra without Improved Sunder.

And it looked to me like the hydra was making AoOs (the mouths are closed in frame 5, but two are open in frame 7). Also, Belkar could sunder six heads per round with a full attack action, so he could get to 40 heads in just six rounds. You'd have to add a few rounds to give new heads a chance to grow to avoid killing the thing, but you should be able to reach 40 heads in 10 rounds, easy.

*GASP* Wait, I just realized, of course Belkar has Improved Sunder!

Spoiler

Show

He needs it to become a blackguard

My opinion on the Illusion spell Elan used: The speech wasn't intelligent, thus while it was coherent, it didn't break the rule. While that's stretching the rules a bit, it's good enough for some laid back DMs, and me.

Figments can't duplicate intelligible (i.e. understandable) speech. You're confusing "intelligible" with "intelligent". I'm pretty sure this is just one of those "humor beats rules" things.

[Wrecan]

You're probably right, Belkar is much too wise and level-headed to ever attack a hydra without Improved Sunder.

Oh, he's foolish enough for it. I just don't think he'd survive it.

Also, Belkar could sunder six heads per round with a full attack action

In the first round, he did just one. In the second round he did it again. in the third round he announces he's going to try for two. So it would be a while before he went six per round.

so he could get to 40 heads in just six rounds. You'd have to add a few rounds to give new heads a chance to grow to avoid killing the thing, but you should be able to reach 40 heads in 10 rounds, easy.

Ten rounds of an average dozen AoOs, plus ten rounds of full attacks with up to 40 heads = a very dead Belkar.

[Kreistor]

The hydra would get an AoO with every head. And Belkar kept sundering heads until it fainted.

Each head is not a separate entity. For one sunder attempt, the hydra as a whole gets one AoO from one natural attack.

And though Hydra's have Combat Reflexes, they only have a Dex of 12, which gives them a single extra AoO per round. Now, as a DM, I've run them and given them one AoO per head, and most DM's would, but that's not the letter of the rule. It should get 2 AoO's per round.

Belkar, though, is facing a very daunting task Sunderng the Hydra. With light weapons, he takes a -4 on the attempt. The hydra gains +4 per size class he is larger than Belkar for +12. That's a difference of 16. I'd love to say the hydra uses 5-headed stats, but that'd make it CR4 which is woefully weak to challenge the OotS with (given we think they started the strip at L10). Five heads may be all the Giant could illustrate reasonably.

The logic of Belkar having Power Attack, though, is not strong. Belkar uses daggers, which cannot be used with PA due to them being light weapons. The only reason to continue to use daggers is if Belkar has Weapon Focus(dagger): if he lacks WF(dagger) then he has no reason to stick so tightly to a particular weapon type. If he has PA and WF(dagger), then he should be making a decision: use daggers and lose PA or use larger weapons and lose WF(). Given Belkar's penchant for destruction, I'd think he'd go for the bigger damage rather than higher attack number.

Anyway, it only goes to summon smoke. The hydra is not shown getting a AoO, so we must think Belkar has Imp Sunder.

[the mysterian]

i think miko might have a low of cha, or something giving her abilities, you know, because she is a big bitch

[baerdith]

Major image doesn't say that it can't include intelligible speech. Minor image allows sound but specifically disallows intelligible speech. I would interpret this to mean that major image allows it.

Wizards says that the Image spells only include intelligible speech IF they specifically say so.

[Kreistor]

i think miko might have a low of cha, or something giving her abilities, you know, because she is a big bitch

Miko has shown talent at avoiding damage from AE spells. Paladins get a bonus to Saves equal to their Charisma: her talent at avoidance suggests that she has some bonus from that anyway (her Monk levels alone shouldn't be that good).

[the mysterian]

but it makes no logical sense, she has the math for it, but she is a total bitch.

[TroyXavier]

Look how many evil and monstrous characters have high charismas. It's not just about attitude to make charisma. (You can be a swell guy and still have a Charisma of 6-8 easily)

[Kreistor]

Intimidation is a Charisma based skill. You think Miko isn't good at that?

[Aquillion]

Yeah, we've never seen her trying to be charming (or convincing.) Charisma doesn't automatically mean you're a diplomatic person; it means you're good at convincing people when you attempt it. Belkar could have 18 charisma and we'd never know.

I think the general consensus is that Miko has high stats just because her build wouldn't have worked without them. Paladin / Monk needs just about high everything to be effective.