V's Gender Debate IV [Official]

[Mr. Bean]

Remember that one time in a hotel where Haley and V were sharing a room? Complete and utter proof V is female.

Or proof that it could go either way, and you shouldn't really care.

[squidbreath]

Not sure if related, but if you search up bdsm blogs around the internet, you'll find ladies who get addressed by that title all the time

[Swordpriest]

Meh, I always viewed him as male and the whole ambiguous gender thing as a joke at the expense of forumites who can't tell whether a character with long hair is male or female. Though I believe you're right, mind you.

[BlackestOfMages]

In #792, Vaarsuvius' familiar calls him "my master." Not "my mistress." Sorry Rich, but it looks like you've been betrayed by your own grammar.

Now Vaarsuvius is only keeper of 999 secrets.

well, what you did there is assume that the english language has gender equality for titles. it dosen't. it is a common mistake though, especially if your used to languages that do diferentiate (most of them)

Master is the correct term, as here are a few of master's meanings. note they're not all male

because V gives orders/commands to Blackwing, V is blacking's master.

also, when someone's Gender is not specified, the Male is always used in grammer.

[Gurgeh]

Eh, I'd argue that pretty much any definition of "master" that would apply in a wizard/familiar relationship is masculine. Most gender-neutral forms of the word are either adjectives or verbs; the only noun forms without a distinct masculine implication are highly specific (such as in chess) and not relevant to V.

Equally, I don't see how that constitutes any evidence of V actually being male. All it would mean is that Blackwing considers V to be male. In fact, even if Blackwing actually knew that V was male, it wouldn't mean anything unless we were told about it; for all we know, Blackwing's just making a guess.

Personally, I've always considered V to be male because his actions and mannerisms have generally been more stereotypically male, but that's really just my preconceptions at work. There's not really any evidence at all for either side of the debate, and since the author himself has explicitly said that there will never be any decisive evidence for either side, the argument seems a little pointless.

My only real beef is with the people who insist on using bizarre, made-up pronouns for V - just pick "he" or "she" or "they" and stick with it, guys.

[zyborg]

I think that there is a very slightly greater chance for V to be female. The thing is, I've noticed a lot of 'hero groups' where there are 3 guys and 2 girls I can't think of any other than the cartoon "Teen Titans" right off of my head, but I've seen a pattern like that.

[Gift Jeraff]

I say V was supposed to be a male based on the fact that DCF commentary says V's gender ambiguity was made canon in response to V's gender discussion, and the gender discussion started after Roy called Vaarsuvius "V-Man."

[Psyren]

I think that there is a very slightly greater chance for V to be female. The thing is, I've noticed a lot of 'hero groups' where there are 3 guys and 2 girls I can't think of any other than the cartoon "Teen Titans" right off of my head, but I've seen a pattern like that.

There are a lot of these, sure:

Power Rangers
Scooby-Doo
Kids Next Door
Airbender
Planeteers

On the other hand, there are plenty of 5-man bands with only one girl too:

Rescue Rangers
Thundercats
Aladdin
Silverhawks
Talespin

So it can still go either way.

[skim172]

In English, if a noun has both a male and female variations, then the male version is acceptable when referring to either gender, while the female version is not. Blame it on the patriarchy.

Just out of curiosity, I know that there have been efforts to translate OOTS into other languages. How is V handled in languages that require gender-specific nouns? I'm thinking that even if V talks about him/herself, it would betray his/her gender. For example, in French, whether he calls himself a "magicien" or she calls herself "magicienne."


Of course, I think we're all assuming something here and that's the idea that elven biology even remotely resembles that of the human body. Perhaps elves don't have gender. Perhaps they reproduce through mitosis, like bacteria. Or, maybe, they are all borne from a Hive Queen, and the young are adopted by elders to be raised into adulthood, like termites. Or, when a elf reaches the limits of their age, they bud off into a swarm of polyps that attach themselves to an organic host and slowly morph their host's physiology until it resembles what we think of as an elven form.

Now you could argue that the fact that there are half-elf, half-human hybrids demonstrates that the biology must be compatible. But I'd also point out that half-dragons, half-lizards, half-orcs, and all sorts of half-whatevers exist as well, which, besides suggesting at that the creators of DND have some fundamental misunderstandings of the reproductive process, show that the humans of this world are amazingly fertile and can mate with anything that has a pulse and produce offspring, regardless of genetic or biological compatibility. When you can successfully mate with a mythical fire-breathing creature borne of magic and legend, then you could probably get down with a plant and have a tree-child nine months later.

[Dvandemon]

I'm going to just quote this rather than get into a drag-out debate.

Or a cyclical reiteration of V's ambiguous gender

[Zevox]

There are a lot of these, sure:

Power Rangers
Scooby-Doo
Kids Next Door
Airbender
Planeteers

Er, A:tlA would only qualify very briefly, after Zuko joined with the heroes but before Suki did. Season 1 and the start of season 2 the main heroes were two male one female, after Toph joined it was 2-2, and it wasn't until the second half of season 3 that Zuko would join and the group thus hit 3-2, which would only last a few episodes until Sokka and Zuko rescued Suki, bringing the group to 3-3 for the finale.

In any event, the whole thing doesn't fit with the Order anyway, since they're a group of six, not five.

Zevox

[Nightmarenny]

In English, if a noun has both a male and female variations, then the male version is acceptable when referring to either gender, while the female version is not. Blame it on the patriarchy.

Just out of curiosity, I know that there have been efforts to translate OOTS into other languages. How is V handled in languages that require gender-specific nouns? I'm thinking that even if V talks about him/herself, it would betray his/her gender. For example, in French, whether he calls himself a "magicien" or she calls herself "magicienne."


Of course, I think we're all assuming something here and that's the idea that elven biology even remotely resembles that of the human body. Perhaps elves don't have gender. Perhaps they reproduce through mitosis, like bacteria. Or, maybe, they are all borne from a Hive Queen, and the young are adopted by elders to be raised into adulthood, like termites. Or, when a elf reaches the limits of their age, they bud off into a swarm of polyps that attach themselves to an organic host and slowly morph their host's physiology until it resembles what we think of as an elven form.

Now you could argue that the fact that there are half-elf, half-human hybrids demonstrates that the biology must be compatible. But I'd also point out that half-dragons, half-lizards, half-orcs, and all sorts of half-whatevers exist as well, which, besides suggesting at that the creators of DND have some fundamental misunderstandings of the reproductive process, show that the humans of this world are amazingly fertile and can mate with anything that has a pulse and produce offspring, regardless of genetic or biological compatibility. When you can successfully mate with a mythical fire-breathing creature borne of magic and legend, then you could probably get down with a plant and have a tree-child nine months later.

We have seen several Elves with an easily defined Gender and Sex. Also we have seen an Elven women preparing to have sex with a human male and a half-elf or two. That implied they are similar to humans biologically. No, the only elves which are gender unspecific is V's family. Really I feel like we can cross anything thats not "male" or "female" off this list. Not to disrespect anyone between genders. Anything else is just unlikely.

Also while I agree with you about the word "master", as well as the reason words that are masculine are all-including. I am puzzled as to why the men of the previous male dominated societies did many things, and one is why masculine word didn't only allow use for men and then include and more neutral word for everyone.

[rewinn]

I am puzzled as to why the men of the previous male dominated societies did many things, and one is why masculine word didn't only allow use for men and then include and more neutral word for everyone.

Linguistic gender can have a messy history and in many languages, there are a lot of words that are female ( have you read Mark Twain's "The Awful German Language"? It has a great example of confused gendering...).

English has a much simpler gender structure than most European languages. It may be that the male gender is the dominant form for generic nouns because (maybe) men basically ran things. If you were counting all the people in a county for purposes of taxation or raising an army, they may well have counted only the men.

[Gurgeh]

Because the assumption was that only a man could be a "master", or something to that effect.

And yeah, D&D breeding bizarreness aside, OotS elves are pretty clearly equivalent to humans in their sexual dimorphism; they have males and females and all the same bits as their human counterparts (pointy ears notwithstanding). At the absolute minimum we have Lirian as a pretty obvious example of an unambiguously gendered elf.

[tassaron]

I have literally never heard someone refer to the owner of an animal as a "mistress". The female owner of a dog is the dog's master.

[BlackestOfMages]

Also while I agree with you about the word "master", as well as the reason words that are masculine are all-including. I am puzzled as to why the men of the previous male dominated societies did many things, and one is why masculine word didn't only allow use for men and then include and more neutral word for everyone.

Hey, never underestimate the ego of the English (I am English, so I'm allowed to say this). Mistress is a word used only in regards to the house, as that's all they considered women capable of doing back when the language was formed. The word Master means superior and is gender-ambiguous because, and this is important, there was no way for a women to obtain any position where the title would be valid - thus, they never saw a reason to have a differing word

[H Birchgrove]

I have literally never heard someone refer to the owner of an animal as a "mistress". The female owner of a dog is the dog's master.

K-9 called the Doctor's female companion (whoever he had for the moment) and Sarah Jane Smith "Mistress". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-9_%28Doctor_Who%29

That's the only example I can come up with.

[Gurgeh]

I have literally never heard someone refer to the owner of an animal as a "mistress". The female owner of a dog is the dog's master.

I've never heard someone refer to a dog's owner as a "master" in conversation, either. Usually they just get called the dog's owner.

[faustin]

In the cell-shadding cartoon "Storm Hawks", the main villain is called "Master Cyclonis", an eighteen girl (although quite competent). So I see "master" as neutral gender.

[Souhiro]

Well, I think that V is genderless, mainly because the draw of a woman should look like this:

Spoiler

Show

[Holy_Knight]

I think there's a good chance Kyrie knows, otherwise s/he gets new levels of respect for marrying someone who's gender s/he didn't know. Haley probably knows too, they room together and seem to have gotten to know each other pretty well.

But even if Kyrie didn't know before they were married, surely that changed after the fact. After Kyrie and Blackwing, Haley is the most likely other person to know (of characters that we've seen, anyway) to know the truth.

On that topic, then: I may have said this before (years ago) but the most probable scenario is that V was originally intended to be male, then changed to "androgynous" once Rich saw that many people thought otherwise and it became a source of debate.

[R. Shackleford]

We'll never know, but I'm going with female. V is just a frumpy elf with no sense of fashion or femininity, due to being distracted by arcane matters.

I don't think using "master" says anything one way or the other, because "mistress" has a distinct connotation that generally keeps it from being on par with "master," even in fantasy.

[Chernobyl]

Master can be gender neutral, while mistress cannot.

Sort of like actor/actress.

Master is gender-neutral when used to mean a person with exceptional skill (e.g. a master of the piano), a person who has complete control of a situation, a graduate holding a master's degree, a person presiding over a function, organization, or institution, or the superior person or side in a contest.

In the sense used here, i.e. the head of a household, the employer of servants, or the owner of slaves or animals (e.g. familiars), master is masculine (vs. mistress).

Sorry Rich, but I think we've got you this time.

[IronWilliam]

I'm not sure Rich has even ever decided a gender for V. That means he would not be able to reveal the secret accidentally if he didn't even know. I think it's mostly a perception thing.

[Talya]

It turned out my first guess (I changed my perception a few times during the date) had been correct.

You sound like you'd be a fun date.

[Chernobyl]

Master can be gender neutral, while mistress cannot.

Sort of like actor/actress.

That's not entirely correct. Master is gender neutral when used in the sense of being an expert ("master of my trade"). When used to mean owner, as of slaves, animals, or familiars, master is masculine. If you have a female owner, you have to use mistress. Look it up.

There will be no clues. V's gender will never be officially revealed or hinted at in any way.

I'm not suggesting Rich gave a clue. I'm saying that he made a mistake and inadvertently revealed V's gender.

[CaptainIreland]

Since Rich just destroyed the only evidence of V's gender either way, I got curious about the thought process of everyone.

Doesn't matter whether you think V is a guy or a girl, but if you do think of him as one or the other, why? What made you pick a side for him?

No need to debate which gender he is or whether someone's reasons for seeing him as a guy or girl are wrong. It's totally just me wondering when someone picked a sex for him, why they chose male or female.

For me, I think he's a guy because most adventurers I read about are guys, his longing for power, the first instance I saw of a character referring to him was "V-man," and frankly, I'm not at all sexually interested in V.

[FujinAkari]

Male because -us is the male conjugation, -a is the female.

[squeekenator]

I think V's gender exists in a Schrodinger's Cat-esque state of quantum uncertainty, making him both a man and a woman at once, and this state of affairs will only change when Rich reveals her gender. This will never happen, because unless his gender is somehow 'evil space cow' it's going to be a big disappointment no matter which gender she ends up being.

[The Rose Dragon]

Since Rich just destroyed the only evidence of V's gender either way...

How did he manage to do that?