LGBTAI+ #58 Infinity 2.0: The Darth Arminius Apology Thread

[Jormengand]

You do look hella queer and hella cute.

[Thufir]

*huff*

There's a feather dangling from my ear!

Well I like it anyway.

It looks good, but I must admit I also didn't notice the earring until you mentioned it. I suspect it was more noticeable in person.

[Lissou]

You look great, Helio :) Grats on the surgery news!

So how is everyone? I'm doing reasonably well-stress is not the most fun, but I'm managing.

I'm doing very well. Things hadn't been great lately (my depression got worse, my husband got a bad infection that led to toe amputation and he's having heart problems, I had nightmares and barely slept for a while) but today things calmed down enough for me to see everything great with my life, and I feel very lucky. I have a husband and a boyfriend who are amazing and who get along great. I am out as polyamorous, as are my partners and their partners. My partners' families are supportive and welcoming and like me a lot, and we're all invited to the Christmas party with my boyfriend and his husband's families, and my husband and I are considered family too.

In the middle of everything, it's great to be able to be yourself publicly, with the support of the people who matter. I wouldn't trade my situation for one without the health issues, but also without the supportive families.

And I would like to give everyone here my best wishes to get as much support as I have, and I wish you all good luck and the determination you will need to be openly yourself whenever it's possible and safe for you to do so.

Lots of hugs and love to everyone who wants them.

[Inevitability]

It looks good, but I must admit I also didn't notice the earring until you mentioned it. I suspect it was more noticeable in person.

This. Unless Heliomance parttimes as a living statue, the earrings are going to be moving. On a static photo they're much harder to be seen, especially with the long hair added in.

[lylsyly]

...I wonder if rainbow-patterned top hats are a thing? EDIT: They are!

Great Fedora! Now if I could only come up with the 8 bucks plus shipping

What, the unusual style of buttons?

I think the jacket (buttons and all) is great. I would wear it in a heartbeat. Love the earring too!

You do look ........... hella cute.

Yep.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS ALL!

[JNAProductions]

You look great, Helio :) Grats on the surgery news!



I'm doing very well. Things hadn't been great lately (my depression got worse, my husband got a bad infection that led to toe amputation and he's having heart problems, I had nightmares and barely slept for a while) but today things calmed down enough for me to see everything great with my life, and I feel very lucky. I have a husband and a boyfriend who are amazing and who get along great. I am out as polyamorous, as are my partners and their partners. My partners' families are supportive and welcoming and like me a lot, and we're all invited to the Christmas party with my boyfriend and his husband's families, and my husband and I are considered family too.

In the middle of everything, it's great to be able to be yourself publicly, with the support of the people who matter. I wouldn't trade my situation for one without the health issues, but also without the supportive families.

And I would like to give everyone here my best wishes to get as much support as I have, and I wish you all good luck and the determination you will need to be openly yourself whenever it's possible and safe for you to do so.

Lots of hugs and love to everyone who wants them.

I'm sorry to hear about the badness, but I'm happy for the goodness. *Smiles and hugs*

And happy holidays, merry Christmas, jolly Hanukkah, all that love and warmth and good times for everyone!

[YossarianLives]

Happy Holidays, folks. I don't post a lot here, but you're all fantastic, beautiful and funny. This thread is the most welcoming internet community I've ever seen. Stay classy.

[137beth]

Was having a conversation with a friend about the lack of a term in the queer language book for "Not cis-men". A term that we can use, basically, for trans, queer and women's inclusion that's not defined by what we're not.
It's kind of an annoying lack, anyone have any ideas?

Note: I'm not saying cisguys are terrible or something, but sometimes it'd be nice to have spaces/events that don't involve them?

Women, trans men, genderqueer and intersex people? It's a bit long, but I think it gets the point across. I'm not sure what single word could be used in place of that six word phrase. Then again, "cis men" is already two words.

[JusticeZero]

So this brings me to the question at hand: If gender is not body parts and it is not personality, what exactly is gender and how does one define it?

I'm not going to take a swing at this other to say that it's a real thing, but it's foggy and hard to define - if you are feeling confused, it's because it is confusing! Just keep picking at it until things start to make more sense FOR YOU, and then poke at it some more in other ways until you feel like you are comfortable where you have found yourself. And if things change later because of new information, that's fine too. I spent decades lost in the closet because I couldn't get any good information and couldn't figure things out because the things people were telling me were simple, and what I had to deal with was not.

Update (because double posts are a nono, as I recall)..

My Christmas is AWESOME. I visited with mom, my brother, my dad, and even my conservative churchy aunt and their respective families and everyone was great. My stepdaughter helped me with makeup and nails, my husband got me ear piercings, mom got me clothes, hair extensions, and eyeshadow, and I was feeling so awesome about everything that I spent all today following hubby around crowded stores in femme and getting ma'am'd twice. He has been ridiculously happy and energetic and talkative and rrowr since his T dose went up. Especially rrowr.
I'm a bit concerned that I will have to deal with boyfails at my sub teaching job before this year winds down. Already had a bit of awkwardness in a special education classroom, because one of the kids asked my pronouns and got two different answers from two different people.
I might be creating a job for myself before then though...

I hope that everyone else had a good winter holiday season.

[Serpentine]

"Women and trans people"?

Helio: Well, there's a few different lesbian flags. I have mixed feelings about the first one here, because on the one hand it's pretty badass and also purple, but on the other it doesn't really keep with the pattern of the others. I think it might be the most widely acknowledged one, though, or the shades-of-pink one.

Spoiler: Les Flagges

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edit: Damn, this person has done a million of these things.

[noparlpf]

edit: Damn, this person has done a million of these things.

I've seen somebody on tumblr who does something similar, but I'm not sure if it's the same person. I'm still a bit skeptical whether it's necessary to be quite as specific as some of those niche sub-divisions of other broader orientations manage to get, but if it makes somebody feel better (and they're not telling other people what they are or aren't, which is always a fun thing to run into) then I mostly don't pay attention to it.

[super dark33]

Ive drawn myself a bi flag with a double headed eagle once, i should find it and have it rendered...

[Siosilvar]

Ive drawn myself a bi flag with a double headed eagle once, i should find it and have it rendered...

I was bored, here you go. I pulled the eagle from the flag of Albania.

Spoiler: Image is 700x500

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Vector is available if you want it, just let me know.

[Luz]

Hey guys..

Thanks for the support some pages ago. I'm sorry if I was an ass fishing for comments I was too depressed.

It's hard and it was even harder this holidays but I survived.

I guess I care more about her well being than my sexual gratification.

I will keep trying to maintain this straight facade for now, while doing gay stuff in secret. It's the best I can do.

[Serpentine]

I've seen somebody on tumblr who does something similar, but I'm not sure if it's the same person. I'm still a bit skeptical whether it's necessary to be quite as specific as some of those niche sub-divisions of other broader orientations manage to get, but if it makes somebody feel better (and they're not telling other people what they are or aren't, which is always a fun thing to run into) then I mostly don't pay attention to it.

The "gender that is like or related to the night or darkness" is the one that got me. But I think the artist was mostly just taking anything that was suggested and doing something up for it, rather than so much making a comment on the quality or validity of them. Also I found the addition of "-sensual" to "-sexual", "-romantic" and "-platonic" interesting.

[Lycunadari]

I'd be very, very careful about ever talking about the "validity" of certain orientations or genders. Sure, I might not personally understand how exactly stuff like voidgender or abrosexuality are supposed to feel, but if we (meaning people who generally care about gender/orientation minorities) start throwing people with "wierd" identities under the bus and start policing what identities are valid and acceptable, we really can't be surprised if other people (esp. cishet people) start invalidating our identities. Because if you want to draw a line between valid and invalid identities, where do you draw it? If you throw out magigender and lithsexual people, how long will it take until agender and demisexuality are "too wierd"? And if you throw them out, will genderqueer and pansexuality be next? And then, are binary trans people and gay people the only real non-straight/cis people, and everyone else from frayromantic to bisexual, from maverique to bigender just confused and not really trans/queer? And suddently even binary trans people and gay people just need to make up their mind, being cis and straight (or normal) is the only valid option.
Hyper specific labels don't hurt anyone, and our communities get enough crap from straight/cis people already without intra-community policing. We need to stick together.

[Serpentine]

Spoiler: Hidden so only the interested can see if they want

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Yeah, I know. I used "validity" for lack of a better term, and just that the artist doesn't make any comment or opinion on that subject either way. Most of the definitions seem to come straight from a specific person, often someone who coined the term themselves. My own opinions on it don't go any further than the tip of my own nose. One of the harder lessons I've had to learn (and still am) is you don't have to agree with or understand something to respect someone's application of it. If anyone ever tells me they're nyxgender or whatever it was (I'm not being flippant, I just can't remember what it was), I might ask for clarification on what that means to that person, and otherwise respond with a shrug and "okay" and maybe "so what pronouns does that come with?" even if I think [opinion redacted, because it's not relevant past the tip of my own nose]

Heck, I even felt an affinity with some of the hyper-specific terms, and was even kinda bummed out that "gender apathetic" wasn't included (though "gendermeh" is probably close enough).

[WarKitty]

Who wants rainbow kittens?

[noparlpf]

I'd be very, very careful about ever talking about the "validity" of certain orientations or genders. Sure, I might not personally understand how exactly stuff like voidgender or abrosexuality are supposed to feel, but if we (meaning people who generally care about gender/orientation minorities) start throwing people with "wierd" identities under the bus and start policing what identities are valid and acceptable, we really can't be surprised if other people (esp. cishet people) start invalidating our identities. Because if you want to draw a line between valid and invalid identities, where do you draw it? If you throw out magigender and lithsexual people, how long will it take until agender and demisexuality are "too wierd"? And if you throw them out, will genderqueer and pansexuality be next? And then, are binary trans people and gay people the only real non-straight/cis people, and everyone else from frayromantic to bisexual, from maverique to bigender just confused and not really trans/queer? And suddently even binary trans people and gay people just need to make up their mind, being cis and straight (or normal) is the only valid option.
Hyper specific labels don't hurt anyone, and our communities get enough crap from straight/cis people already without intra-community policing. We need to stick together.

Yeah, that's why I question whether the hyper-specific labels are "necessary" and not whether the underlying identities are valid. But necessity is subjective. For me, I feel like there can be a point between coining enough new words to improve communication and coining too many new words and confusing communication. I generally identify as asexual or just avoid the topic because I don't even want to explain asexuality or demisexuality to cishet people, forget anything more complicated.

[Siosilvar]

Who wants rainbow kittens?

More to the point, who doesn't? I'm allergic to cats apparently, but I'll get over the sniffles for them anyway!

[Asmodean_]

I'd be very, very careful about ever talking about the "validity" of certain orientations or genders. Sure, I might not personally understand how exactly stuff like voidgender or abrosexuality are supposed to feel, but if we (meaning people who generally care about gender/orientation minorities) start throwing people with "wierd" identities under the bus and start policing what identities are valid and acceptable, we really can't be surprised if other people (esp. cishet people) start invalidating our identities. Because if you want to draw a line between valid and invalid identities, where do you draw it? If you throw out magigender and lithsexual people, how long will it take until agender and demisexuality are "too wierd"? And if you throw them out, will genderqueer and pansexuality be next? And then, are binary trans people and gay people the only real non-straight/cis people, and everyone else from frayromantic to bisexual, from maverique to bigender just confused and not really trans/queer? And suddently even binary trans people and gay people just need to make up their mind, being cis and straight (or normal) is the only valid option.
Hyper specific labels don't hurt anyone, and our communities get enough crap from straight/cis people already without intra-community policing. We need to stick together.

Spoiler: devil's advocate

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This works the other way too. If you keep automatically accepting the "validity" of those with increasingly obscure identities, eventually it'll pass that anything goes and LGBTAI+ will end up (seen as) some sort of nutjob group. I'm not saying that people with non-cis-etc. identities/sexualities are nutjobs, after all we're all tolerant here, it's just that others aren't as much and given current events, it's clear that those who aren't as much are more likely to judge a group based on those on the edge of its bell curve. Even if we ourselves are free of lines, others aren't, and if they see a line cutting through this group it'll taint the perception of the group as a whole. Hyper-specific labels are at best confusing and at worst alienating and exclusive, not inclusive (I didn't know what some of those terms meant, people not in this group won't know even more).

[Comrade]

magigender
lithsexual
frayromantic
maverique

Alright, I've never heard of these, so I decided to look them up.

Magigender sadly doesn't mean 'I identify as a magical being' but rather 'I identify as mostly _____'. Couldn't that be just as easily summed up by genderqueer (somebody who identifies as more than one gender to some extent)?

Lithsexual and frayromantic apparently refer to somebody who experiences sexual or romantic attraction (respectively) but that attraction abates if reciprocated or as they get to know a person better. That doesn't sound like an orientation. That just sounds like a personal thing in the former case, and in the latter... Well, frankly, lots of people experience romantic attraction to a person that goes right out the window as they get to know them better. That's just infatuation.

The definition I found for 'maverique' was 'characterized by autonomy and inner conviction regarding a sense of self that is entirely independent of male/masculinity, female/femininity or anything which derives from the two while still being neither without gender nor of a neutral gender'. Except, well, that sounds exactly like a neutral gender. If you identify as a specific gender that's independent of maleness or femaleness (and don't identify as one of the third genders that exist amongst numerous peoples outside the standard Western binary) then that's neutral gender. 'Maverique' just sounds like a word for one who is neutral gender but wants a mildly more exciting word for it.

[Siosilvar]

The devil doesn't need more lawyers. More to the point, this is pretty much the exact type of discussion that's liable to end in hurt feelings, forum infractions, and another banned topic in the first post. It's exceedingly difficult to talk about labels separately from the identity that they label, so it's probably best if we stop here.

How about those rainbow kittens we were offered, eh?

[WarKitty]

How about those rainbow kittens we were offered, eh?

Rainbow kittens will have to wait a few hours, sadly. I remembered that most images are blocked at work so I can't supply them quite yet.

[Sobol]

In the meantime, have some rainbow coyotes:

Spoiler:

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[lio45]

Alright, I've never heard of these, so I decided to look them up.

Magigender sadly doesn't mean 'I identify as a magical being' but rather 'I identify as mostly _____'.

It doesn't mean "I consider my own junk to be 'magical'"? I'm so disappointed.

[WarKitty]

Rainbow Kitten!

[JusticeZero]

Lithsexual and frayromantic apparently refer to somebody who experiences sexual or romantic attraction (respectively) but that attraction abates if reciprocated or as they get to know a person better.
That doesn't sound like an orientation. That just sounds like a personal thing in the former case, and in the latter... Well, frankly, lots of people experience romantic attraction to a person that goes right out the window as they get to know them better. That's just infatuation.

That statement is pretty aphobic, really... It's pretty much the same as dismissing asexuals and demisexuals as "having standards", which causes cringing.
I try to track the fraysexual community a bit, because I once mentioned it, got an "OMG that's me!" reaction, and immediately had the emotional reaction of Tennant-doctor saying "I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry.", and recognized that not knowing what they were was worse. They don't have the biggest asexual tell.
One fraysexual description of themselves and their orientation was most strongly noted because they were NOT fray[i]romantic[i/]... Meaning that they would meet someone and be the usual infatuated lovebird, then as things got serious, they would want to make a serious commitment and be more in love than ever... as they flipped over to sex-repulsed with their SO. Aces really have done a lot more research and categorizing of orientation components than most.

Which reminds me that my usual retort to "too many labels" is to point out that entomologists have MILLIONS of labels for "bug" and nobody cares.

[Comrade]

That statement is pretty aphobic, really... It's pretty much the same as dismissing asexuals and demisexuals as "having standards", which causes cringing.

I don't really see how that's analogous (and I think it's a stretch to connect that statement to prejudice against asexual people). Somebody earlier requested this discussion stop, so if you want it can be moved to the other thread (which I think is more amenable to such discussion) or PM.

[golentan]

Which reminds me that my usual retort to "too many labels" is to point out that entomologists have MILLIONS of labels for "bug" and nobody cares.

I dunno. "Bug" as a category has a lot more physical, social, and behavioral variability than "human" in my experience.