RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

[Ramza00]

So I hate Cinder even more in the monster of rock sketch of RWBY chibi...Sight Cinder stinks in all of her appearances besides the 1st episode where she does not even have a single speaking line.

I'm okay with what they do with Pyrrha in season 3 it just suffers from poor decision making on how to execute it. In a proper world she'd be alive but heavily wounded to one day come back all badass.

You complain all of the time about Aura and how Aura ruins any form of drama, and now you are complaining about a death even though it establishes the stakes are real.

I am projecting onto you, but I think you are mad they killed one of the few interesting characters, and they have not introduced a new character to make up for it, nor did they increase the game for the existing characters.

[LaZodiac]

So I hate Cinder even more in the monster of rock sketch of RWBY chibi...Sight Cinder stinks in all of her appearances besides the 1st episode where she does not even have a single speaking line.



You complain all of the time about Aura and how Aura ruins any form of drama, and now you are complaining about a death even though it establishes the stakes are real.

I am projecting onto you, but I think you are mad they killed one of the few interesting characters, and they have not introduced a new character to make up for it, nor did they increase the game for the existing characters.

You're deffo projecting. Trust me, I wanted so much for them to establish real stakes. I feel, not thinking about what I "feel the show should be" and instead looking at "what it is", it's better if P leaves and Yang loses her arm. That's honestly enough sense that things Are Serious now. Now, if I was doing the show I'd of introduced the idea that "the things our heroes do matter" a lot earlier, but when I get to this part I'd still have P live, just heavily wounded.

I am annoyed they killed my favorite character, who happens to be one of the more interesting ones, but I'm not letting it cloud my judgement. It doesn't really improve the story to have her die here.

[Lethologica]

Reasons for: Pyrrha's arc was marked for a tragic ending; it would be straight-up difficult to save Pyrrha without contrivances; it made the stakes personal; it's tough to get Jaune to leave with Ruby if Pyrrha is alive and wounded; there wasn't much time for her in volume 4; we already have a 'recovery of badly injured main character' arc with Yang; Cinder trying to become the complete Fall Maiden would get played out eventually; we don't need both Pyrrha and Ruby to be Cinder's nemeses.

Reasons against: Pyrrha's death basically eliminated the Maiden arc from the story for the time being, forcing cRWBY to distract us myth-wise with that tepid Two Brothers nonsense; having a more general 'casualties of Vale' arc instead of just Yang could have been a better use of that story time (but this requires faith that cRWBY can tell that arc in limited minutes); Pyrrha wrestling with her identity would be an interesting arc and also potentially produce exposition naturally as part of her character development, instead of just through Qrow going all World of Remnant on RNJR; more as I think of them.

On balance I'd still kill her, but there's an argument to be made.

[Rater202]

Pyrrha's death was inevitable: The members of Team JNPR were all based on historical or mythological figures who crossdressed, and Pyrra, named after the alias Achilles used when pretending to be a woman to avoid war, is the most similar out of all of RWBY's cast to the figure she's based on/a referance to.

And Achilles was destined to die in battle from the beginning. Just as Pyrra was.

So don't complain about it. Instead, worry about Juane. The figure he's based on has just as tragic a story, being burned alive as a witch, and one of the main villains has high tier fire powers.

[HalfTangible]

Pyrrha's death... eh, I'd leave it in. Pyrrha dies, game over, she gets no rez. My biggest problem with it is that she was killed by one of the most boring characters in the entire show. It wouldn't have been so bad if Cinder was an interesting, complex villain, but she's just not. She gets more interesting when she loses her voice.

Also, the Silver Eyes are easily the bigger problem in that particular scene. Giant angel wings popping out of your eyes is not a cool superpower, it's plot contrivance. I'd rather just cut them entirely (from the show, not Ruby's head... although...) but if you must have some kind of anime superpower, there are better ways. Have them glow bright and enhance her Semblance so she goes from rose ball to The Flash, for example. Maybe she has the power to petrify Grimm, but it hurts her and her eyes immensely to do so. Cinder loses her Maiden powers and maybe even her normal semblance because of the Eyes, and imply it's because she has that Grimm inside her arm (yeah I know this is implied in other material, SHOW IT IN THE ACTUAL SHOW). At least make it like Cyclops; a big giant laser coming out of her eyes or something! There are a number of ways to scar Cinder without resorting to the very dumb eyeball wings and fade to white.

(Side note: if there was only one thing I could change in this episode it would be that Roman Torchwick would not die yet. Possibly entire series, I haven't decided yet.)

[LaZodiac]

I mean, there are timeswhere it's cool and makes sense, but it requires an entire series of set up first. Cough cough.

[HalfTangible]

I mean, there are timeswhere it's cool and makes sense, but it requires an entire series of set up first. Cough cough.

*shrug* Like I said, I'd rather just cut them out of the show. Ruby's innocence and honesty is supposed to be what makes her special (see opening scene) and while I'm not entirely sure how that would help, it's more interesting than anime superpower #348,754. Largely because it's far more fragile.

[The Fury]

They did in the season 2 finale, though I didn't catch that pun the first time. Thank you for making that scene even worse.

Hey, I'm glad to oblige!

I disagree, I'd say V3 is the worst by far.

V4 was certainly the dullest of the seasons, with a lot of 'quiet' things happening. There aren't any giant action scenes, or big dramatic plots happening. No, it's Ruby taking a walk, Yang going through physio, Blake reconnecting with her parents, and Wiess running away from home. So yeah, not really the most epic of plots, and quite frankly, it didn't even set up any plots that are particularly epic as well. But it did do it well. Juane training was actually touching, Wiess's family is sufficiantly ***** up, and Salem's scenes actually built her mystery and character.

Agree to disagree I guess. Jaune's bit with training with Pyrrha's video was good. And Weiss having an awful family life made sense, given that it's been implied since fairly early on that she puts up a façade to hide the fact that she's very unhappy. Salem's scenes though... yeah, they "built mystery" I guess, but all that requires is to not reveal anything substantive. Maybe you got more out of those scenes than I did.

V3 had a lot more stuff, but most of it was bad. A lot of ***pulls, Cinder being smug, and so on and so forth. The only thing that I can think of that was handled well was Pyrra's arc, and I think I'm in the minority for that one.

My only bone to pick with the Pyrrha arc is that it killed her off when I was just starting to get invested in her as a character. Up until Volume 3 I didn't think Pyrrha was all that interesting and there wasn't much I could say about her other than "she's nice." I guess I could also say "her eyes are pretty... so green..." or "her hair hides one of her eyebrows, so I keep thinking that she's cocking an eyebrow and about to say something snarky but she never does. And that's just weird!"

Then there was the stuff with the Fall Maiden and accidentally killing Penny. Cool! Now it feels like Pyrrha's really being tested as a character! She's got to make a tough decision and live with the emotional damage of having killed someone... Oh, never mind she's dead.

Pyrrha's death was inevitable: The members of Team JNPR were all based on historical or mythological figures who crossdressed, and Pyrra, named after the alias Achilles used when pretending to be a woman to avoid war, is the most similar out of all of RWBY's cast to the figure she's based on/a referance to.

And Achilles was destined to die in battle from the beginning. Just as Pyrra was.

So don't complain about it. Instead, worry about Juane. The figure he's based on has just as tragic a story, being burned alive as a witch, and one of the main villains has high tier fire powers.

Don't forget Nora, who was based on Thor who fought the Midgard Serpent at the end of the world, which ended with them destroying each other. I guess that means that some jumbo-sized snake or dragon Grimm is gonna eat her and she'll detonate her grenades to take it down with her?

Really, Ren is the only former Team JNPR member that's safe if you're looking at it like that. I guess he'll go on to be a distinguished Huntsman and eventually return to his home village and take up embroidery.

I mean, there are timeswhere it's cool and makes sense, but it requires an entire series of set up first. Cough cough.

This show did kind of set it up, they just did an awful job. Which is to say they set it up with one line, two volumes ago. In the dialogue with Ruby and Qrow I kind of got that I was supposed to have remembered what Ozpin first said to Ruby, ("You have silver eyes,") I couldn't remember that at all. In Ruby's place I would have guessed "Scythes are deadly?" or "Something about cookies?"

[Ramza00]

Don't forget Nora, who was based on Thor who fought the Midgard Serpent at the end of the world, which ended with them destroying each other. I guess that means that some jumbo-sized snake or dragon Grimm is gonna eat her and she'll detonate her grenades to take it down with her?

Yes, Nora is based off Thor, lets accept this.

But why do they have to use a Norse myth, when there are many other similar myths that have many of the same themes? I think limiting your storytelling to just Norse and Thor stories for Nora would be limiting.

And if you want to have a hero vs "Dragon" / "Snake" / "Hydra" story there are so many of them.

There are so many myths of Chaoskampf (German word for Struggle against Chaos)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_...ny)#Chaoskampf

The Chaoskampfis a common story you will find in many cultures of either a Weather God representing Order, or a Cultural Hero who is friends with Gods (or some of the Gods representing Order) fights a chaos monster and the chaos monster is often in the Shape of Snake, Dragon, Hydra, or Naga.

Here is not an exhaustive list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamata_no_Orochi

Thor vs. Jörmungandr (Norse)
Tarhunt vs. Illuyanka (Hittite)
Teshub vs. Ullikummi (Hurrian)
Zeus vs. Typhon (Greek)
Heracles vs. The Lernaean Hydra (Greek)
Indra vs. Vritra (Indian)
Krishna vs. Kāliyā (Indian)
Θraētaona vs. Aži Dahāka (Zorastrian)
Garshasp vs. Zahhak (Iranian)
Dobrynya Nikitich vs. Zmey Gorynych (Slavic)
Saint George vs. The Dragon (Christian)
Saint Michael vs. Herensuge (Christian-Basque)
Făt-Frumos vs. Balaur (Romanian)
Baʿal vs. Yam (Canaanite)
Yu the Great vs. Xiang Liu of Gong Gong (Chinese)
Marduk vs. Tiamat (Babylonian)
Ra vs. Apep (Egyptian)
Atum vs. Nehebkau (Egyptian)
Yahweh vs. Leviathan (Jewish)
Gabriel vs. Rahab (Jewish)
Christ vs. Satan (Christian)

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Now many of those lists are languages we call Proto Indo European descendant languages. We know that there was a culture between 3000 to 2000 BC (and it is actually earlier than 3000 BC but there are debates if it 3500, 4000, or 8000 BC) and this culture contain horses and they spread their language far and wide from parts of Europe, Fertile Crescent, Turkey, Russia, India, and parts of China (Tocharian). And besides spreading the PIE languages, and descendant of PIE languages they also spread many of their stories and to a lesser extent their religion. (Note some of the Iranian and Indian spread is probably not PIE but instead a subbranch or daughter language of PIE)

Now Chaoskampf is not limited to PIE languages though. For example Susasno vs Yamata no Orochi (the eight headed dragon / hydra) is a Japaneses myth between a Storm God (Lord of Order) vs Orochi (Chaos) and Japaneses is very much not a PIE language (and almost all of Chinese is not a PIE language). That said parts of the myth of Susasno and Orochi especially Orochi's name suggest loan words were used, and thus the myth is an imported myth (for people like to tell stories) combined with local culture for stories are changed when they are told and retold.

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So my point was not just to share history stuff and things I find interesting. Why do you force a "FATE" onto Nora that she must fight a serpent grimn and die. Part of stories are they are allowed to change and they are not forced to forever remain the same. The fire is not the same as the spark that birth it.

And blah blah blah... engages my Salem monotone voice talking about Legends and Remnants (Byproducts), while at the same time engaging a second voice of Ozpin to answer those comments talking about Hope and how Hope exists in the forgotten things, things that require a smaller and honest soul.

[Rawhide]

Hmmmmmmmmm

[The Fury]

So my point was not just to share history stuff and things I find interesting. Why do you force a "FATE" onto Nora that she must fight a serpent grimn and die. Part of stories are they are allowed to change and they are not forced to forever remain the same. The fire is not the same as the spark that birth it.

...Man, it seems to me like you took my previous post a lot more seriously than I did. Just to be clear, I'm not forcing a fate onto Nora. If what I described actually ends up being accurate I will be very surprised, what I meant was that if you assume a character's fate will be the same as their mythological/historical counterpart, you can arrive at some pretty weird conclusions. Besides, I'm pretty sure Rooster Teeth is playing fast and loose with those kinds of references.

[Forum Explorer]

Agree to disagree I guess. Jaune's bit with training with Pyrrha's video was good. And Weiss having an awful family life made sense, given that it's been implied since fairly early on that she puts up a façade to hide the fact that she's very unhappy. Salem's scenes though... yeah, they "built mystery" I guess, but all that requires is to not reveal anything substantive. Maybe you got more out of those scenes than I did.

I have to admit, it really helped that Salem followed Cinder. Because Cinder was so utterly awful, Salem's scenes, despite being much of the same sort of thing as Cinder's in S3, seem to be so much better then they likely are, because they are at least handled better.

[The Fury]

I have to admit, it really helped that Salem followed Cinder. Because Cinder was so utterly awful, Salem's scenes, despite being much of the same sort of thing as Cinder's in S3, seem to be so much better then they likely are, because they are at least handled better.

Credit where it's due, Salem's appearance in Volume 4 added some re-watch value to the parts where she's the narrator.

[HalfTangible]

I have to admit, it really helped that Salem followed Cinder. Because Cinder was so utterly awful, Salem's scenes, despite being much of the same sort of thing as Cinder's in S3, seem to be so much better then they likely are, because they are at least handled better.

Salem imo works because unlike Cinder her immediate goal (get Cinder to master her powers) is clear enough, even if her ultimate goal isn't.

Tension isn't seeing an explosion, it's knowing that there's a bomb under the table and it's going to blow up in 5 minutes.

[LaZodiac]

Credit where it's due, Salem's appearance in Volume 4 added some re-watch value to the parts where she's the narrator.

Not gonna lie still have problem telling Salem and Cinder's voices apart. The only notable difference I can tell is that most of what Salem says matters. Probably just a weird thing in my head.

[HMS Invincible]

Not gonna lie still have problem telling Salem and Cinder's voices apart. The only notable difference I can tell is that most of what Salem says matters. Probably just a weird thing in my head.

Salem is the AI from Halo and Microsoft, and cinder is the nobody. Hope that helps.

[Reddish Mage]

This is Salem:

Spoiler: Jen Taylor

Show

This is Cinder:

Spoiler: Jessica Nigri

Show

Not very much alike really.

[LaZodiac]

The physical appearance of the actresses and other characters they play doesn't really help. My issue is that Salem and Cinder sound alike. Which is to say not only do they just sound sorta similar, they also have the same kind of acting instructions as well, so they do sound basically the same. They sound alike and "talk the same way" it's just that the lines for Salem make more sense in general.

[Forum Explorer]

The physical appearance of the actresses and other characters they play doesn't really help. My issue is that Salem and Cinder sound alike. Which is to say not only do they just sound sorta similar, they also have the same kind of acting instructions as well, so they do sound basically the same. They sound alike and "talk the same way" it's just that the lines for Salem make more sense in general.

I don't know, I found Cinder's voice to be constantly full of smug, while Salem's had a more regal sort of authority to it. Which now makes me think Cinder was trying to sound like Salem, because they do speak in the same style.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I don't know, I found Cinder's voice to be constantly full of smug, while Salem's had a more regal sort of authority to it. Which now makes me think Cinder was trying to sound like Salem, because they do speak in the same style.

Pretty sure that's intentional. All of Salem's group seems to hold her in extremely high regards, makes sense that the youngest would try to emulate her boss and not quite get it. Especially since Salem seems to have all the qualities that Cinder wants.

[The Fury]

Maybe that's deliberate, like Cinder is trying to talk like Salem. So... would that mean that Cinder is a Salem fangirl? (Heh, Callos beat me to it!)

As for Salem's goals... hopefully Volume 5 has some more solid answers. Implicitly, Salem wants control of the Maidens of the Seasons. She has Fall in Cinder already, she's after Spring, (which is a weird progression by the way. In my mind, either Summer or Winter would've made more sense.) Presumably she has a candidate in mind to be the next Spring Maiden, so far no one in her crew makes sense. Maybe Emerald?

Also, in Vol. 3 Ozpin mentioned that taking on the Fall Maiden's Aura might do weird things like change Pyrrha's personality, possibly make her more like Amber. It's possible I'm misremembering, but I think he mentioned that she might take on Amber's memories as well. If that's true, would Cinder remember being Amber as well? I don't actually dislike Cinder as a character, but I'll admit that she's not very interesting. Though if it turns out that she does remember things from Amber's life, that might add some interest to her.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Also, in Vol. 3 Ozpin mentioned that taking on the Fall Maiden's Aura might do weird things like change Pyrrha's personality, possibly make her more like Amber. It's possible I'm misremembering, but I think he mentioned that she might take on Amber's memories as well. If that's true, would Cinder remember being Amber as well? I don't actually dislike Cinder as a character, but I'll admit that she's not very interesting. Though if it turns out that she does remember things from Amber's life, that might add some interest to her.

The Fall Maiden's Aura was potentially going to do weird things to Pyrrha's personality and being because of the un-tested and un-orthodox method they were going to use to transfer Fall's powers. As far as we know, Cinder's 'maiden stealing' Grimm works like the normal transfer of a maiden's power and that ALL Cinder got was Amber's power, where as Pyrrha would have Amber's Aura forcibly mixed with her own and likely would have produced a situation like Oscar/Ozpin.

[Forum Explorer]

Pretty sure that's intentional. All of Salem's group seems to hold her in extremely high regards, makes sense that the youngest would try to emulate her boss and not quite get it. Especially since Salem seems to have all the qualities that Cinder wants.

Yup, and it makes Cinder more interesting as well.

Maybe that's deliberate, like Cinder is trying to talk like Salem. So... would that mean that Cinder is a Salem fangirl? (Heh, Callos beat me to it!)

As for Salem's goals... hopefully Volume 5 has some more solid answers. Implicitly, Salem wants control of the Maidens of the Seasons. She has Fall in Cinder already, she's after Spring, (which is a weird progression by the way. In my mind, either Summer or Winter would've made more sense.) Presumably she has a candidate in mind to be the next Spring Maiden, so far no one in her crew makes sense. Maybe Emerald?

I actually don't want more solid answers, unless Volume 5 has the protagonists more directly confront Salem's plans. I think part of Cinder's problem is that we got too many scenes with her that didn't actually have any substance to them beyond her going 'just as planned /smug'

Well...I suppose that doesn't have anything to do with her plans I guess. I just don't want them to mess it up again.

[HalfTangible]

I don't know, I found Cinder's voice to be constantly full of smug, while Salem's had a more regal sort of authority to it. Which now makes me think Cinder was trying to sound like Salem, because they do speak in the same style.

Agreed. The line between authoritative and smug is a thin one, but it's what separates Salem from Cinder. Salem feels like a legitimate evil overlord. Cinder sounds and feels like a child imitating what she thinks a proper bad guy sounds like.

To a lesser extent, I think it also has something to do with how each was introduced. Cinder's first full scene made her look about on par with Roman (in no small part because Roman kept jabbing back at her), while in Salem's you can immediately tell the entire room is scared of/in awe of her.

[The Fury]

I actually don't want more solid answers, unless Volume 5 has the protagonists more directly confront Salem's plans.

Seeing as how it's implied that Qrow, Ozpin and possibly others have been working directly against Salem for some time, as well as Salem sending her underlings after Ruby, it's fair to say that the protagonists will be confronting Salem's plans pretty soon.

I think part of Cinder's problem is that we got too many scenes with her that didn't actually have any substance to them beyond her going 'just as planned /smug'

Well...I suppose that doesn't have anything to do with her plans I guess. I just don't want them to mess it up again.

I'd really love to see a "just as planned" bad guy actually be revealed as not having a plan.

[Reddish Mage]

Seeing as how it's implied that Qrow, Ozpin and possibly others have been working directly against Salem for some time, as well as Salem sending her underlings after Ruby, it's fair to say that the protagonists will be confronting Salem's plans pretty soon.

I'd really love to see a "just as planned" bad guy actually be revealed as not having a plan.

The question is not whether RWBY confront's Salem plans, that what they've been doing from the first episode of the first volume (whether they knew it or not), but there is a question of whether RWBY & friends will spend Vol. 5 finding/defending the spring maiden (+ other spring maiden related plans), or will be in position to take offensive and confront strike at Salem or her organization's core.

From what we've seen, the series has a pretty set path to move from Vale to Mistral to Vacuo/Atlas (and from fall maiden to spring to summer/winter). It would seem odd if cRWBY show up at Salem's nowhere castle at this point, there is still two maidens left spring and plenty of places still left unexplored.

Also, a great show needs great villains, these would be diminished if they get threatened so early in the game. Its more likely, RWBY+ will take loses the spring maiden will be captured/killed, and then have to scramble to the next continent.

Agreed. The line between authoritative and smug is a thin one, but it's what separates Salem from Cinder. Salem feels like a legitimate evil overlord. Cinder sounds and feels like a child imitating what she thinks a proper bad guy sounds like.

There's more to it than this. Cinder's over-the-top evil is fine for many a cartoon (and Roman's own scene-chewing talk didn't diminish him at all), but Salem's voice has depth. The first we hear of Salem is not everyone treating her at the head of the room, the first we hear of her is as the narrator giving us an origin story of Remnant!

As someone who trades off with Ozpin as the storyteller, Salem carries an aura of wisdom, even omniscience, about her. Her plans come from thinking about Remnant from a point of view of one seeped in its history and culture. She is more than just someone treated as regal, she has already demonstrated the bearing and knowledge of someone worthy of being in-charge.

[LaZodiac]

I'd really love to see a "just as planned" bad guy actually be revealed as not having a plan.

Unrelated but I should finish my book and get it published.

[The Fury]

Unrelated but I should finish my book and get it published.

...Oh my gosh! Does it have that in it? Sign me up! I so want to read that!

[LaZodiac]

...Oh my gosh! Does it have that in it? Sign me up! I so want to read that!

Not immediately in it but suffice to say, someone has plans and it's me I'm the person with plans.

At any rate, **** the Amber memory things will probably lead to a heel face turn for Cinder. God, please no.

[Rater202]

I was so angry when I started volume four and found out that Ruby's magic eye lasers didn't kill Cinder.

Though I have to admit that the scene at the very least gave me more fodder for my Ruby=Girlku thought process.