RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

[LaZodiac]

...I have watched that fight many times, honestly more than I care to count, Pyrrha does not almost win.

If we're being brutally honest I feel the difference in our read on the fight is entirely just because "this is how we see it". Because the show cannot properly show us how the fights are going. Like...what you see as Pyrrha having trouble slitting Cinder's throat, I see as Cinder desprately trying to PREVENT Pyrrha from slicing her idiot voice box out. Because the show has next to no actual details in the fights, and are more focused on bashing the models together in some mockery of good fight shooting, we have to way to tell HOW the fight is going.

I still maintain that if Pyrrha didn't THROW HER ****ING SHIELD while fighting someone that USES PROJECTILES she would of won. Ruby showing up would of given her the advantage she needed to END this. Cinder is rocking THE POWER OF A GOD, according to Ozpin, and she's ON PAR with Pyrrha. With Ruby backing her up, Cinder dies.

[Rawhide]

I think it's time to resurrect the in depth story analysis/rewrite thread. Permission granted to cast thread necromancy and move the current discussion there.


There are, however, a couple of things I'd like to address here.

'grey eyes'. We still don't have a clue what happened with that.

The existence of powers behind silver eyes was revealed in the final episode of last season, we haven't even started the first episode of this season.

I still maintain that if Pyrrha didn't THROW HER ****ING SHIELD while fighting someone that USES PROJECTILES she would of won. Ruby showing up would of given her the advantage she needed to END this. Cinder is rocking THE POWER OF A GOD, according to Ozpin, and she's ON PAR with Pyrrha. With Ruby backing her up, Cinder dies.

Pyrrha's shield is more than just a stationary blocking device, she uses it as a manipulatable projectile weapon (think Xena's chakram, but with more control and more uses). Plus, she perfectly blocked the projectile with her thrown shield. Pyrrha didn't lose because she was unable to block a projectile with her shield, she lost because the blocked projectile shattered, then went around her shield on all sides and reformed on the other. Thrown or not, that makes a shield useless.

[LaZodiac]

Pyrrha's shield is more than just a stationary blocking device, she uses it as a manipulatable projectile weapon (think Xena's chakram, but with more control and more uses). Plus, she perfectly blocked the projectile with her thrown shield. Pyrrha didn't lose because she was unable to block a projectile with her shield, she lost because the blocked projectile shattered, then went around her shield on all sides and reformed on the other. Thrown or not, that makes a shield useless.

I maintain that if she had kept her shield on her person, where it can shield her, the arrow wouldn't of been able to reform well enough to jab her in her ankle. Also she hit the arrow with her edge, like hell that's a perfect block.

[Rawhide]

I maintain that if she had kept her shield on her person, where it can shield her, the arrow wouldn't of been able to reform well enough to jab her in her ankle.

Debatable.

Also she hit the arrow with her edge, like hell that's a perfect block.

Any block which causes (or would have caused, in this particular case) an attack to be completely deflected is a perfect block.

[cha0s4a11]

I maintain that if she had kept her shield on her person, where it can shield her, the arrow wouldn't of been able to reform well enough to jab her in her ankle. Also she hit the arrow with her edge, like hell that's a perfect block.

Once her Aura defense broke, Pyrrha was pretty much at Cinder's mercy. Even assuming she blocked the arrow to the ankle, there was little stopping Cinder from just torching her right then and there. Trying to block fire with a metal (i.e. heat conducting) shield that is less than person-sized is far more viable when one has aura protection against the fire/heat that gets around the shield and the heat that gets conducted through the shield.

Even assuming that Pyrrha managed to delay dying long enough for Ruby to get up there, she would effectively be useless in any further fight (i.e. Cinder vs Ruby/Pyrrha may as well be Cinder vs Ruby) because no Aura means no magnetic powers Semblance (Semblance is a manifestation of Aura, No Aura = No Semblance) and her current available weaponry literally just consists of a metal shield.

I should take this opportunity to point out that Amber had a significantly better chance at recovery/fighting after Aura break than Pyrrha did, precisely because Maiden powers are special and not a manifestation of Aura. If not for Cinder's well timed arrow to the back, it's quite possible that Amber could have Aura broke/killed Emerald.

[Callos_DeTerran]

If we're being brutally honest I feel the difference in our read on the fight is entirely just because "this is how we see it". Because the show cannot properly show us how the fights are going. Like...what you see as Pyrrha having trouble slitting Cinder's throat, I see as Cinder desprately trying to PREVENT Pyrrha from slicing her idiot voice box out. Because the show has next to no actual details in the fights, and are more focused on bashing the models together in some mockery of good fight shooting, we have to way to tell HOW the fight is going.

Really? I've never really had a problem reading what was happening in a fight on RWBY. More importantly (well...more like more relevant anyway), in that moment there are details. Pyrrha is straining trying to pull the blade closer and we know she is trying because the blade is trembling, but the blade isn't making any actual progress and it is quite a ways from its mark. Meanwhile, before the Wyrm even decides to help, Cinder is melting through the pilun and smirking back at Pyrrha. She already knows she is in no danger, the Wyrm just gives her a bigger opening.

I still maintain that if Pyrrha didn't THROW HER ****ING SHIELD while fighting someone that USES PROJECTILES she would of won. Ruby showing up would of given her the advantage she needed to END this. Cinder is rocking THE POWER OF A GOD, according to Ozpin, and she's ON PAR with Pyrrha. With Ruby backing her up, Cinder dies.

Pyrrha had already lost that fight. No aura means no Polarity. No Polarity means all her shield is...is...well...a shield and she had no idea that Ruby was on her way. So between choosing between dragging the fight out a little longer until she dies or trying another last ditch effort in the vain attempt of taking out Cinder, she choose to make the attack because she had nothing else left.

Ruby showing up in time to try and save Pyrrha would have just gotten them both killed. It was Pyrrha dying with Ruby being completely unable to do anything about it that awoke the Silver Eyes. And without that trigger and at that point in the fight? Pyrrha was an active liability because she could neither continue fighting or defend herself. IF Ruby had actually been able to put up a fight against Cinder by herself (really, really doubt it) all it would have taken would be a single attack tossed Pyrrha's way for Ruby to deplete her aura or, worse, get injured trying to protect her. Because while Cinder's character has flaws to it, lack of ruthlessness is not one of them. She has shown absolutely no hesitation in using underhanded attacks or tactics to win a fight quickly.

Anywho, really wanna see Volume 4 now, so excited.

Edit: ...dang it, the guy above me beat me to it. Ah well!

[Forum Explorer]

The existence of grey eyes was revealed in the final episode of last season, we haven't even started the first episode of this season

Right, and that's a bad time to reveal them. It makes the Deus Ex Machina more obvious and jarring. A reveal like that needs to have been set up beforehand, which this one wasn't.

[LaZodiac]

I should take this opportunity to point out that Amber had a significantly better chance at recovery/fighting after Aura break than Pyrrha did, precisely because Maiden powers are special and not a manifestation of Aura. If not for Cinder's well timed arrow to the back, it's quite possible that Amber could have Aura broke/killed Emerald.

And yet the Maiden Power is attached to the aura and by transfering the aura over to Pyrrha she would of received the power. Basically, you can't say what you're saying with confidence here.

As for the other stuff you said, while that's true that her aura WAS broken and Cinder COULD incinerate her, she DIDN'T. Cinder was clearly not at full power any more, and with Ruby there it would of gone poorly for her.

Really? I've never really had a problem reading what was happening in a fight on RWBY. More importantly (well...more like more relevant anyway), in that moment there are details. Pyrrha is straining trying to pull the blade closer and we know she is trying because the blade is trembling, but the blade isn't making any actual progress and it is quite a ways from its mark. Meanwhile, before the Wyrm even decides to help, Cinder is melting through the pilun and smirking back at Pyrrha. She already knows she is in no danger, the Wyrm just gives her a bigger opening.

Pyrrha had already lost that fight. No aura means no Polarity. No Polarity means all her shield is...is...well...a shield and she had no idea that Ruby was on her way. So between choosing between dragging the fight out a little longer until she dies or trying another last ditch effort in the vain attempt of taking out Cinder, she choose to make the attack because she had nothing else left.

Ruby showing up in time to try and save Pyrrha would have just gotten them both killed. It was Pyrrha dying with Ruby being completely unable to do anything about it that awoke the Silver Eyes. And without that trigger and at that point in the fight? Pyrrha was an active liability because she could neither continue fighting or defend herself. IF Ruby had actually been able to put up a fight against Cinder by herself (really, really doubt it) all it would have taken would be a single attack tossed Pyrrha's way for Ruby to deplete her aura or, worse, get injured trying to protect her. Because while Cinder's character has flaws to it, lack of ruthlessness is not one of them. She has shown absolutely no hesitation in using underhanded attacks or tactics to win a fight quickly.

Anywho, really wanna see Volume 4 now, so excited.

Edit: ...dang it, the guy above me beat me to it. Ah well!

Eh, I read the fight differently. Also, if she knew she didn't have access to her magnetic powers yet, then she should of REALLY kept hold of her shield. A last desperation style attack would be to try and make Cinder fall off the building.

I'm sort of excited for Volume 4 because I'm curious where they'll go, and if they WILL manage to improve things.

[Rawhide]

A reveal like that needs to have been set up beforehand, which this one wasn't.

*cough*cough*

[Forum Explorer]

*cough*cough*

I don't think a single line, in the first episode, with zero context on why silver eyes are important, when Oz is acting eccentric, counts as foreshadowing.

[Lethologica]

I don't think a single line, in the first episode, with zero context on why silver eyes are important, when Oz is acting eccentric, counts as foreshadowing.

It was a clear foreshadowing that silver eyes would be a thing. The problem is more precisely that the silver eyes are currently a free-floating plot point with no thematic or emotional significance, which makes it seem cheap. This is fixable, but right now it's awkward, and while I can't see the future of the story, it probably didn't have to be that way--this is where setup could have been useful, as you said earlier.

[Forum Explorer]

It was a clear foreshadowing that silver eyes would be a thing. The problem is more precisely that the silver eyes are currently a free-floating plot point with no thematic or emotional significance, which makes it seem cheap. This is fixable, but right now it's awkward, and while I can't see the future of the story, it probably didn't have to be that way--this is where setup could have been useful, as you said earlier.

I disagree that it's clear foreshadowing (or good foreshadowing) in any way. A single line, while technically foreshadowing, isn't likely to mean anything beyond saying Ruby has weird eye colors. And considering it doesn't get mentioned or become relevant until 3 seasons later, I don't think I can be blamed in completely forgetting that they ever mentioned it.

[Morty]

Finally there's Cinder, who's just so uninteresting as a villain. We have virtually no idea what she want's the maiden powers for, and she comes off as a generic, "just as planned" villain who just has stuff work for her, and gives a smirk afterwords. Basically she's just given too much focus for this to work.

Too much and too little focus at the same time. Many characters in RWBY are walking archetypes without much of a third dimension, but Cinder may be the worst offender. The impression I get is that her creation process started with "she's a villain who smirks a lot and talks about how everything is going as planned"... and stopped there. It didn't occur to anyone that in order for everything to go as planned, she needs to have plans and actually do something about them. Otherwise, she just acts smug when things just so happen to go her way, like you said.

[DoctorFaust]

Too much and too little focus at the same time. Many characters in RWBY are walking archetypes without much of a third dimension, but Cinder may be the worst offender. The impression I get is that her creation process started with "she's a villain who smirks a lot and talks about how everything is going as planned"... and stopped there. It didn't occur to anyone that in order for everything to go as planned, she needs to have plans and actually do something about them. Otherwise, she just acts smug when things just so happen to go her way, like you said.

Clearly, this is actually evidence that RWBY takes place in the WH40k universe and that Cinder is a Tzeenchian psyker. It all makes sense!

[Rawhide]

I don't think a single line, in the first episode, with zero context on why silver eyes are important, when Oz is acting eccentric, counts as foreshadowing.

Point is that it was set up beforehand. Additionally, we've only just finished the first act, until now we've only been in the set up phase.

Regardless, this isn't the place to discuss whether it was done well or not, that should be in the in depth story analysis/rewrite thread, which I have already given approval to be resurrected.

Wait, I didn't do it in red. I hereby approve the in depth story analysis/rewrite thread to be resurrected. Now it's official.

[cha0s4a11]

I should take this opportunity to point out that Amber had a significantly better chance at recovery/fighting after Aura break than Pyrrha did, precisely because Maiden powers are special and not a manifestation of Aura. If not for Cinder's well timed arrow to the back, it's quite possible that Amber could have Aura broke/killed Emerald.

And yet the Maiden Power is attached to the aura and by transfering the aura over to Pyrrha she would of received the power. Basically, you can't say what you're saying with confidence here.

I have a reasonable basis for my statements about Aura and maiden powers - namely that while there have been several cases of Aura breaks in the series, literally the only instance of someone using powers after their Aura defense has broken is when Amber fought Cinder, Emerald and Mercury. Granted it's not ironclad, but the alternatives require an explanation as to why Pyrrha stopped using her magnetism after her Aura break despite there still being plenty of metal that is useful on the top of the tower.

I think part of the issue that the writing could do a bit better with is the conflation of Aura (Someone's soul that makes up their being) vs Aura (How much power said soul has to deflect harm). The maiden powers get attached to the former, and, from what I can tell, run on a power source that's independent of the latter.

As for the other stuff you said, while that's true that her aura WAS broken and Cinder COULD incinerate her, she DIDN'T. Cinder was clearly not at full power any more, and with Ruby there it would of gone poorly for her.

Without going Silver Eyes Nova, or some other circumstantial bonus of equal or greater questionability, Ruby would have been no match for Cinder. In a straight-up fight, Ruby was losing pretty badly to Neo and Roman until "Interesting use/downside of Umbrellas" and "Case example of why promoting the virtues of nhilistic self-interest whilst surrounded by Grimm is a bad idea" came into play.

Eh, I read the fight differently. Also, if she knew she didn't have access to her magnetic powers yet, then she should of REALLY kept hold of her shield. A last desperation style attack would be to try and make Cinder fall off the building.

How does one make an opponent that has been floating in the air for the majority of the battle, propelled by flames from their powers, fall off a building for any appreciable effect?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Eh, I read the fight differently. Also, if she knew she didn't have access to her magnetic powers yet, then she should of REALLY kept hold of her shield. A last desperation style attack would be to try and make Cinder fall off the building.

Cinder...? ...The...same one that can float/fly and brake in mid-air?

I mean, it basically came down to what Glynda told Jaune all the way back in Jaundice except in reverse, Pyrrha had been playing defensively for most of the fight to no avail so when her aura ran out, went with an offensive tactic to do SOMETHING. Maybe she would have survived longer by holding onto her shield but what would that have accomplished from Pyrrha's perspective? As far as she knew, no one was coming to help her and she had no more tricks in her bag, stalling wouldn't have accomplished anything.

Rawhide, I don't know where the in-depth discussion thread is...or what it was called. XD

[LaZodiac]

Cinder...? ...The...same one that can float/fly and brake in mid-air?

I mean, it basically came down to what Glynda told Jaune all the way back in Jaundice except in reverse, Pyrrha had been playing defensively for most of the fight to no avail so when her aura ran out, went with an offensive tactic to do SOMETHING. Maybe she would have survived longer by holding onto her shield but what would that have accomplished from Pyrrha's perspective? As far as she knew, no one was coming to help her and she had no more tricks in her bag, stalling wouldn't have accomplished anything.

Rawhide, I don't know where the in-depth discussion thread is...or what it was called. XD

I mean in that case it WOULD be a last desperation attack. She can fly, sure, but what if Pyrrha slammed into her and dragged her down, preventing her flight. That'd feel more desperation fueled.

[Quiver]

I apparently have a completely different take on Cinder than...everyone. Huh.

My impression was that...yeah, she plans things. But the back half of volume 3 felt like she was...gambling? Roulette-ing? Is that the verb for it?

It's one if the points I liked about her, actually. The fight with Amber? Yes, she started with a plan; they were taking on someone with godpowers, so Leroy Jenkins-ing wasn't an option. And my impression from the fight was that their win was a marginal one.

Same for the tournament; she had a plan, saw the opportunity provided by metal vs polarity, and then used that to her advantage instead. Everything after Pyrrha's fight with Penny was improv; that Cinder was smart enough to pull that off isn't a black mark against her character.

Now... Three seasons in, I do wish we knew more about her personality and motivations. At the moment, she almost seems to be working off of Joker logic, anarchy and chaos for the sake of anarchy and chaos. And...well, volume 3 killed off the character who could have been her Batman, so if Cinder is only after chaos? That's disappointing.

So...yeah. Hoping volume 4 sheds some light on her, and Rwby in general? I enjoy it, and Rwby Chibi, but it could be better.

[Forum Explorer]

I apparently have a completely different take on Cinder than...everyone. Huh.

My impression was that...yeah, she plans things. But the back half of volume 3 felt like she was...gambling? Roulette-ing? Is that the verb for it?

It's one if the points I liked about her, actually. The fight with Amber? Yes, she started with a plan; they were taking on someone with godpowers, so Leroy Jenkins-ing wasn't an option. And my impression from the fight was that their win was a marginal one.

Same for the tournament; she had a plan, saw the opportunity provided by metal vs polarity, and then used that to her advantage instead. Everything after Pyrrha's fight with Penny was improv; that Cinder was smart enough to pull that off isn't a black mark against her character.

Now... Three seasons in, I do wish we knew more about her personality and motivations. At the moment, she almost seems to be working off of Joker logic, anarchy and chaos for the sake of anarchy and chaos. And...well, volume 3 killed off the character who could have been her Batman, so if Cinder is only after chaos? That's disappointing.

So...yeah. Hoping volume 4 sheds some light on her, and Rwby in general? I enjoy it, and Rwby Chibi, but it could be better.

Improvising is the word you're looking for. But if that was the case, we'd see things go wrong in a meaningful way for her, instead of it always going her way. Like none of her 'failures' actually have a meaningful impact on her plans. And we get enough screentime of her to see that her plans pretty much aren't effected.

Also her whole lack of personality despite the large amount of screentime she has gotten is pretty brutal. Like, I don't care about her at all. If she doesn't show up in later seasons I don't think the story would be harmed at all.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I apparently have a completely different take on Cinder than...everyone. Huh.

My impression was that...yeah, she plans things. But the back half of volume 3 felt like she was...gambling? Roulette-ing? Is that the verb for it?

It's one if the points I liked about her, actually. The fight with Amber? Yes, she started with a plan; they were taking on someone with godpowers, so Leroy Jenkins-ing wasn't an option. And my impression from the fight was that their win was a marginal one.

Same for the tournament; she had a plan, saw the opportunity provided by metal vs polarity, and then used that to her advantage instead. Everything after Pyrrha's fight with Penny was improv; that Cinder was smart enough to pull that off isn't a black mark against her character.

Now... Three seasons in, I do wish we knew more about her personality and motivations. At the moment, she almost seems to be working off of Joker logic, anarchy and chaos for the sake of anarchy and chaos. And...well, volume 3 killed off the character who could have been her Batman, so if Cinder is only after chaos? That's disappointing.

So...yeah. Hoping volume 4 sheds some light on her, and Rwby in general? I enjoy it, and Rwby Chibi, but it could be better.

Her motivation is vague...but only in the sense we don't know why she wants it. Cinder wants to be powerful so that people fear her, but we don't know why she wants to be feared beyond a vague impression that she wasn't exactly in control of her life before.

I got a similar impression of her honestly in that towards the end of volume she began to improv, but...not that much. Like they had the plan with the tournament beforehand and yeah it got messed up because Torchwick went early, but it was otherwise going smooth. Then they got the access point in Ironwood's scroll and changed the plan to use Penny in it and to account for Torchwick being captured. Before then...we still know part of it...that being a big White Fang attack which probably would have brought the Grimm anyway to sow panic and fear...both to awaken the Wyrm and to create a chance to take the rest of the Fall Maiden's powers..plus, y'know, smoke out where they were hiding her.

Sadly, that's about it. I like the plan in Volume 3 because it was very coherent and effective but we don't know the original trigger for the Grimm attack. I do regret that in Volume 3 we learned a bit about Mercury and Emerald but not nearly as much about Cinder. Hopefully she gets more development soon.

[Quiver]

Improvising is the word you're looking for. But if that was the case, we'd see things go wrong in a meaningful way for her, instead of it always going her way. Like none of her 'failures' actually have a meaningful impact on her plans. And we get enough screentime of her to see that her plans pretty much aren't effected.

Also her whole lack of personality despite the large amount of screentime she has gotten is pretty brutal. Like, I don't care about her at all. If she doesn't show up in later seasons I don't think the story would be harmed at all.

Considering how I used improv in literally the next paragraph, I have no idea how I forgot 'improvising' as a word. Mea culpa.

Anyhow... I think, in the case of Cinder, I'm a little more forgiving (too much so, I'll admit). I find the idea of evil!Cinderella compelling enough that I do want to see her get more screentime and personality...

But it is hard go argue against her lack of it so far. Sure she's had flashes of characterisation -her general smugness, her persistence, "Don't think, just obey"- but there isn't anything particularly unique about the character yet.

Partly, I think I've been willing to let the show coast by on superficial fairy tale logic...and fairy tale villains, while generally symbolic of something, don't have especially complex psychological profiles.

As for what Cinder has represented until now...? That's where I start to fall back to the (uninteresting) prospect of "anarchy and chaos". Social Revolution? I think that Remnant is...

The White Fang is an interesting concept to me. I'm always fascinated by that idea of "Your terrorists are our freedom fighters," which they very directly play into. I think that Cinder is maybe marching to a similar drum as Adam; the world needs fixing, so we're going to beat it until it changes shape.

So, season 3, I think, is built around that idea. We see the old order trying to hold on...but after Amber is attacked, that really isn't an option anymore. Season 3... I think the back half of it feels like an escalating apocalypse narrative. Of course Pyrrha dies, because she was the chosen champion of the old world, a society which, thanks to Cinder, doesn't exist anymore. Peace has ended.

So... I don't know? Sorry; I think this is incoherent rambling. But I do think that...going forward, we'll get more o an idea of what Cinder wants. Because we have to know what kind of world she wants, so we can contrast it with the world that Ruby wants...and because we're past the point where we can drop back on "fairytale logic" as an excuse. We're Post-apocalypse, and in that landscape, character motivations becomes even more important.

I don't think that excuses her earlier showings, but I am willing to be a little Ore lenient with her, I guess? Bingewatching the series might have helped gloss over the problems too...

[LaZodiac]

Here is the sum total of what we know about Cinder's personality. After whatever that Grimm sock puppet thing she hugged Amber with absorbed itself into her body, she said that she feels empty inside, and that she likes it.

So, assuming she means like...emotionally, she's probably a nihilist. This is way to much thought to put into this waste of a character though.

[Quiver]

Here is the sum total of what we know about Cinder's personality. After whatever that Grimm sock puppet thing she hugged Amber with absorbed itself into her body, she said that she feels empty inside, and that she likes it.

So, assuming she means like...emotionally, she's probably a nihilist. This is way to much thought to put into this waste of a character though.

Sorry. I admit, I have a...very definite tendency of playing apologist and overanalysing stuff sometimes.

[LaZodiac]

Sorry. I admit, I have a...very definite tendency of playing apologist and overanalysing stuff sometimes.

I like overanalyzing stuff but we have to do it properly, we can't just throw garbage on the wall and call it a game theory, as appropriate as it would be to do so.

My problem is if they really want us to believe Cinder was flying by the seat of her pants...show us? When Ozpin stands against her, and he shows he's actually really powerful and badass...make her lose her swagger. Ozpin does his flashstepping nonsense and Cinder goes "..............****! I thought you were just an old man!"

That makes her subsequent defeat of him more impressive since she was surprised by him, and still pulled it out. Likewise with Pyrrha, to me it's clear that Cinder is having a hard time of it, even with god powers...why NOT make it like that. She's at the zenith of her confidence and and try as she might, she CAN'T just incinerate her. Pyrrha's JUST THAT GOOD. Maybe have Cinder start to doubt the person who's led her all this way, that these Maiden powers aren't actually special and it's all been lies and myths, and the reason why Salem wants them is for a completely different reason. Give our villain SOMETHING that makes her even one IOTA more interesting than a generic cackling "just as planned" villain.

As someone who is trying to get into writing herself, and wants to make a eventual comic/manga type thing, this is something I've put a lot of thought into. I've got a villain myself who could very well come off as the ultimate smug "just as planned" type villain...but I've made very sure to show that he's NOT, he just IS good at improvising, and I'll be sure to SHOW that. It makes them more interesting, and it even has shades of reflection with the hero, since as heroes are typically reactive, as opposed to a villain's proactiveness, they need to fly by the seat of their pants more often than not. Showing the slight mirroring can be fun.

[Reddish Mage]

The chilbi personalities of these Cinder only further reinforce our impression: she's is generic villain without the overpower angle. She show the strength of an OP type that can just stomp the heroes, play them like a cat and mouse, and so on...but if she has another side, a human-side, we aren't shown it.

We get a scene were Cinder maybe gets her soul eaten out of her, the comment is "I think I like it."

I think the VA and the design nails the female villainess, I like that about her, but I'll fully admit she's two-dimensional and a stock character stuff into a tight outfit. She just happens to have a physical design, moveset, and square-on hammy authenticity that is a cut above the last villainess to pop up in a JRPG.

[Ramza00]

Cinder is going to remain a one dimensional villain until we understand her backstory or her motivations. Until then we just get a flat INTJ (or possible INFJ) villian, who is a cardboard cut out and might as well be from a scooby doo episode talking about her evil plan / evil keikaku.

Side note, it would be awesome if Cinder turns out to be a messed up and twisted INFJ and that is why she is causing the world to burn (nothing is scarier than an INFJ villain willing to do genocide), I say this for INTJ villains are one of the most common personality type you see in literature / tv, always with a perfect plan, always so methodical.

[Dasgovernator]

In unrelated news:

Spoiler: RWBY Chibi 23

Show

Did they just save all the good shorts for the end of the run? Even the Junior detectives one wasn't that cringe-worthy, and Ren the hard-ass dance instructor made me actually laugh out loud. These bits are really at at their finest when poking fun of some of the inconsistencies in their own universe.

[LaZodiac]

The chilbi personalities of these Cinder only further reinforce our impression: she's is generic villain without the overpower angle. She show the strength of an OP type that can just stomp the heroes, play them like a cat and mouse, and so on...but if she has another side, a human-side, we aren't shown it.

We get a scene were Cinder maybe gets her soul eaten out of her, the comment is "I think I like it."

I think the VA and the design nails the female villainess, I like that about her, but I'll fully admit she's two-dimensional and a stock character stuff into a tight outfit. She just happens to have a physical design, moveset, and square-on hammy authenticity that is a cut above the last villainess to pop up in a JRPG.

While slinky dresses are nice and all, I think Cinder's outfits are all basically terrible? Slippery red dress with yellow highlights, slippery tiny dress that looks sort of Mortal Kombat esque with gold highlights, random cat suit that didn't really need to be used, and then whatever the ****ing nonsense that hipster bandage suit was.

I'd also argue that her being barely a cut above a female villain from a JRPG, but it's literally taken me over like 10 minutes to think of any female villain in an RPG that isn't ****ing utter trash, or part of a game that is such a garbage fire that I don't think it'd count anyway. Especially not any recent ones.

If you want to get super technical Lightning from the FF13 games is technically a villain.

Cinder is going to remain a one dimensional villain until we understand her backstory or her motivations. Until then we just get a flat INTJ (or possible INFJ) villian, who is a cardboard cut out and might as well be from a scooby doo episode talking about her evil plan / evil keikaku.

Side note, it would be awesome if Cinder turns out to be a messed up and twisted INFJ and that is why she is causing the world to burn (nothing is scarier than an INFJ villain willing to do genocide), I say this for INTJ villains are one of the most common personality type you see in literature / tv, always with a perfect plan, always so methodical.

I'm going to assume you're talking about myres briggs personality types, which I know nothing and do not care to learn anything about at the moment, so...could you elaborate?

[Ramza00]

I'm going to assume you're talking about myres briggs personality types, which I know nothing and do not care to learn anything about at the moment, so...could you elaborate?

INFJ personality are the idealistic counselor type of personality who normally try to make the world a better place. Also can be called other things such as Mentor, Advocate, and a couple other things. Often in heroic type literature they are the Paladin or the Seeker of Wisdom / Knowledge, or the wise Mentor (think qui gon jinn)

But they can also be villains as well, and quite scary villains when they occur. Think Ras Al Ghul of Batman, Melisandre of ASOIAF / Game of Thrones, Senator Palpatine of the Prequel Star Wars (we do not see enough of him in ROTJ to type him), Zaheer from Legend of Korra. Often when you see them as villains you seem them willing to do great evil that they know is evil, but they do not care for it suits a bigger purpose (genocide, overturning governments / structures) or when they manipulate people by understanding peoples feelings and using those feelings to convince someone to do X for they want to do X.

----

INTJ is more of the stereotypical mastermind, if a plan requires lots of details and layers and planning ahead often you are dealing with the INTJ personality.