Which edition had the most powerful wizard?

[that_one_kobold]

Exactly how it sounds, which wizard is the best and why? (Yes i count ad&d)

Edit: Magic user or any other variation of the wizard class works. (not including sorcerer, just int. based spell casters )

[redwizard007]

Exactly how it sounds, which wizard is the best and why? (Yes i count ad&d)

First time I've ever actually heard the sound from opening a can of worms.

[Quertus]

Whichever one(s) I've played my signature mage, Quertus, in, of course.

Well, thanks to bounded accuracy, the 5e mage can be killed by orcs, so he's out. 2e had, imo, the best tricks, but, only acting at 1/10th the speed of later edition mages (citation needed) tends to hurt.

So, 3e?

Edit: that's limiting the answer to wizards within editions of D&D. But as D&D mages can likely make simulacra of mages from other systems, I'd say they probably still win.

[LibraryOgre]

3.x, without a doubt. Normalizing for round length, they have the most spells per day, numerous options to easily expand their daily spellcasting (wands, scrolls, potions). Easy to make custom magic items. No maximum number of spells per level, spells themselves easy to learn, quick recovery (8hours sleep + 1 study to refill from empty; for AD&D it would be days of work), and a saving throw system that favors spellcasters.

[Lord Raziere]

Exactly how it sounds, which wizard is the best and why? (Yes i count ad&d)

Anders: (immediately) DnD 3.5
Varric: (almost simultaneously) 3.5
Fenris: 3.5
Merrill: 3.5
Aveline: 3.5
Carver: 3.5
Isabela: 3.5
Sebastian: Even I know that.
Hawke: No question.

[CharonsHelper]

Anders: (immediately) DnD 3.5
Varric: (almost simultaneously) 3.5
Fenris: 3.5
Merrill: 3.5
Aveline: 3.5
Carver: 3.5
Isabela: 3.5
Sebastian: Even I know that.
Hawke: No question.

That's stupid. 3.0 was even worse! (They did nerf a few of the worst offending spells when moving to 3.5.)

[LibraryOgre]

That's stupid. 3.0 was even worse! (They did nerf a few of the worst offending spells when moving to 3.5.)

Any examples?

[Eldan]

Any examples?

Haste used to give bonus actions.

[Tinkerer]

Should I assume that you are referring to end game mages? Hmm... this might not be as simple as one believes. 3.0/3.5 springs to the top of the mind however there were some rather interesting points in so far as 2nd edition end game that I need to look up. It is after all far easier for a 2nd edition end game mage to become a god, although there is the question of if that added oomph is enough to compensate. And then if you aren't talking end game mages I wonder about a level 1 competition...

Edit: Would you count becoming a god as a form of multi-classing?

[ko_sct]

Hum.... it's hard to say.

On one hand they nerfed a few powerfull spells in 3.5.

But on the other hand some of their 'nerf' ended up making those spell more powerfull. Like grease used to be a simple reflex saves and wish actually had more limitations in 3.0 compared to 3.5.

In the end, i think i'd say 3.5 wizards are the most powerfull, simply because there's a lot more material in 3.5 than in 3.0

[gkathellar]

Haste used to give bonus actions.

Yeah, but 3.0 had a shorter run, and thus fewer spells (and feats, and items, and PrCs, and shapechange forms). 3.5 wizards would eventually acquire their own bonus action spells (Celerity), and far more (Persistent Spell, Craft Contingent Spell, Dark Chaos Shuffle, etc.).

But yeah, 3.0 is a close second.

[Lord Torath]

I don't know... A 30/30 mage/psionicist in 2E could have 9d6+58d4+22 hp + constitution bonuses (442 hp max), a base AC of -6 (26 in 3E), is immune to any weapons less than +5, has a flat 80% magic resistance, a base move of 600 yards per minute (sprint up to 5 times that) and has a 200' radius aura of Protection from Evil, Dispel Darkness, Ray of Enfeeblement on evil creatures, and the effects of a Globe of Invulnerability. Plus can cast 10th level psionic enchantments.

[Tinkerer]

I don't know... A 30/30 mage/psionicist in 2E could have 9d6+58d4+22 hp + constitution bonuses (442 hp max), a base AC of -6 (26 in 3E), is immune to any weapons less than +5, has a flat 80% magic resistance, a base move of 600 yards per minute (sprint up to 5 times that) and has a 200' radius aura of Protection from Evil, Dispel Darkness, Ray of Enfeeblement on evil creatures, and the effects of a Globe of Invulnerability. Plus can cast 10th level psionic enchantments.

That does however break the "Int based spellcaster" requirement however. Although the 2nd edition super high Int making one immune to illusions should be counted among their powers. But 2nd ed Wish is far inferior. Also for people who were talking about round duration I thought that some books in 2nd listed a 6 second round and some listed a 1 minute round. I could be mistaken.

[Potatomade]

If including non-core, then 2.5 (2E with Players Options). Specifically any wizard using Spells & Magic's Spell Points. No spell slots, so you could technically get only 9th level spells if you wanted. Bonus points if it's a Wild Mage channeler: basically all the benefits of 5e sorcerers crossed with any edition's wizards. Also, the Players Options books let you min-max spellcasters using a completely broken Character Points system. Man, I hate those books.

EDIT: Those Options books (and Dragon Kings) also include 2E's version of epic magic, the True Dweomers.

[Frozen_Feet]

D&D 3.x., for the simple reason that Epic level play is technically supported and stretches the game way beyond other versions, save perhaps for Immortals of BECMI. Yeah, they're helped along by massive content bloat, but 3.x. Wizard is way out there even if you only use SRD material.

[Lord Torath]

If including non-core, then 2.5 (2E with Players Options). Specifically any wizard using Spells & Magic's Spell Points. No spell slots, so you could technically get only 9th level spells if you wanted. Bonus points if it's a Wild Mage channeler: basically all the benefits of 5e sorcerers crossed with any edition's wizards. Also, the Players Options books let you min-max spellcasters using a completely broken Character Points system. Man, I hate those books.

EDIT: Those Options books (and Dragon Kings) also include 2E's version of epic magic, the True Dweomers.

Nah, Dragon Kings only had Psionic Enchantments. They were still 10th level spells (and 8th and 9th for Clerics and Druids), but not the same as the True Dweomers.

I've never looked too hard at the Players' Option books. Okay, PO: Combat and Tactics I went through (and actually used a bit of), but I've heard enough about the other two PO books to know I'm not interested.

[Potatomade]

Spells & Magic was less obnoxious than Skills & Powers, but it still let you get away with absolutely stupid things, like having a single-classed wizard running around with a d8 hit die, priest THAC0, plate armor, and greatsword specialization. All of that independent of your wizard specialization or kit.

EDIT: Sorry, I keep forgetting stuff. That single-classed wizard? He could also cast priest spells, thanks to Priestly Wizard. Any priest spell at all (you buy them by the sphere).

[Tinkerer]

Hmm, for 2nd ed should we count the fact that they use more random treasure tables in their favour? Because I had a 2nd Ed Wild Mage who rolled Odin's freaking Rune on a random treasure table. Odin's Rune is the god Odin's personal wand. Among it's abilities is bestowing a complete immunity to magic, the ability to kill any mortal who touches it (fortunately that character counted as an immortal at that point), and the ability to command several thousand HD worth of creatures in the immediate area as an unlimited ability. Theoretically 3rd ed can do similar but I found it much more common to get items which are completely out of the characters depth in 2nd.

[that_one_kobold]

Edit: Would you count becoming a god as a form of multi-classing?

If it's not a class then i guess not.

[Jay R]

It depends on the level. A game might have very weak low-level wizards and all-powerful high level wizards, and the earliest games did.

A 17th level wizard from original D&D could cast a Wish spell every day, with no loss of experience points or any other penalty, and no limits on what it could do beyond what the DM chooses to impose.

If you know your DM well enough to stay out of trouble, nothing else comes close.

[Dezea]

I'd say that "Raw Power-Wise", a 3.x wizard would be the king of them all.

Now, If I really wanted to be the most powerful character in a setting, I would clearly chose to be an AD&D wizard. My 3.x counterpart could probably anihilate me in a duel, but I would be dominating pretty much everything in my setting even more - And that say something - than a 3.x wizard would do. (Mainly due to a lot the other classes being mostly here for decorum at higher level, sadly.)

Edit : I'm mostly speaking high-level, at low level AD&D was pretty much a pain in the ass for wizard, 2 spells per day and having to randomly roll your spells at level up and so on...

[LibraryOgre]

Hmm, for 2nd ed should we count the fact that they use more random treasure tables in their favour? Because I had a 2nd Ed Wild Mage who rolled Odin's freaking Rune on a random treasure table. Odin's Rune is the god Odin's personal wand. Among it's abilities is bestowing a complete immunity to magic, the ability to kill any mortal who touches it (fortunately that character counted as an immortal at that point), and the ability to command several thousand HD worth of creatures in the immediate area as an unlimited ability. Theoretically 3rd ed can do similar but I found it much more common to get items which are completely out of the characters depth in 2nd.

What treasure table were you using? 'Cause that's an artifact, and they generally don't show up on the standard treasure tables.

[Tinkerer]

It depends on the level. A game might have very weak low-level wizards and all-powerful high level wizards, and the earliest games did.

A 17th level wizard from original D&D could cast a Wish spell every day, with no loss of experience points or any other penalty, and no limits on what it could do beyond what the DM chooses to impose.

If you know your DM well enough to stay out of trouble, nothing else comes close.

Although several of the other editions have work arounds which compensate for the penalty (using a summoned creature etc...). Additionally the GM was actively encouraged to use the Wish spell to screw around with and kill or disable the character in original D&D (I know you said if you know your DM well enough but this takes the power out of your hands and places it in the DMs).

Okay so I think that it's generally agreed that for levels over 4 we can really throw 4th and 5th edition out the window, correct? And while there are... what like a dozen versions of 1st I think it's agreed that BECMI has the highest power level unless I'm missing something. So what we are left with is BECMI, 2nd, 3.0, and 3.5. I'm really inclined to think that 3.5 beats out 3.0 as despite 3.0 having some more potent versions of spells 3.5 has more variety available to work with. 2nd edition has Players Option which, as was stated, allows you to build a mage class from scratch giving them things like priest spheres, enhanced HP, resistances and immunities, enhanced spell level etc... HOWEVER it is still a point build system which means that you can't give them everything, but you can give them an awful lot by gaming that build system. BECMI... sorry but I'm not familiar with high level play there. I don't think it has anything which places it above 3.5 and 2nd but I could be mistaken.

I may be biased here from my 2nd ed epic wild mage but I am tempted to put forward that as the most powerful mage. I have a few things to back that up.

1. You can make yourself immune to wild surges from quite a low level due to spells the wild mage gets.
2. Wildfire allows you to cast ANY wizard spell (regardless if you know it or not) of level 8 or below as a standard action with no downside. It also explicitly allows you to break the rules regarding magic item creation and allows you to cast spells which only specialists can cast.
3. Nahal's Reckless Dweomer allows you to have a % chance equal to your level +2 of being able to cast any spell that you know and it's only a 1st level spell slot. This would normally have the downside of a surge if you fail however see above for being immune to wild surges (plus unlike Wildfire it combos with the ability to cast priest spells). I tend to fill 90% of my slots between level 1 and 4 with this spell.
4. Items in 2nd edition tend to be written without as much concern regarding game balance. It is rather common to see items which would never have been allowed in the 3rd edition books.
5. Unlike other specialty mages absolutely no one except a wild mage can cast wild magic spells.
6. Assuming you are only going with printed sources I think there are more 10th-12th spells in 2nd edition.
7. The aforementioned build-a-mage which allows a wide variety of options

So essentially you are trading a 5% chance of failure on every spell cast for access to almost every spell in the game and being able to cast them at will. This would be why my mage has a bunch of the important stuff like Time Stop etc... in her items. There is also a lovely spell which allows you to put spells on pause which I can't quite remember the name of right now but it's definitely come in handy acting like a poor man's Persist Spell.

[Tinkerer]

What treasure table were you using? 'Cause that's an artifact, and they generally don't show up on the standard treasure tables.

That would be upon killing the BBEG where we leveled up to 20 he allowed us to roll a few times on the table in the Encyclopedia Magica. Aka the EVERYTHING table. Maybe a bad example.

EDIT: But I did still find more out of depth items in both the more and less powerful directions in 2nd.

[Lord Torath]

And while there are... what like a dozen versions of 1st I think it's agreed that BECMI has the highest power level unless I'm missing something.

BECMI (or BX or Holmes Basic or Rules Cyclopedia) is not a version of 1st Edition AD&D. 2E is much closer to 1E than BECMI is to 1E. BECMI had much simpler classes, race as class for demi-humans, and generally much simpler mechanics. Initiative was much simpler, and there were no weapon speeds or casting times. Humans could advance to level 36, but I don't know that a 36th BECMI fighter was relatively more powerful than a 20th 1E/2E fighter.

[Cosi]

3e (specifically, 3.5) Wizard, not close. SLA wish means infinite stats and all spells at will from 11th level.

On one hand they nerfed a few powerfull spells in 3.5.

But on the other hand some of their 'nerf' ended up making those spell more powerfull. Like grease used to be a simple reflex saves and wish actually had more limitations in 3.0 compared to 3.5.

In the end, i think i'd say 3.5 wizards are the most powerfull, simply because there's a lot more material in 3.5 than in 3.0

There is zero chance that a 3.0 Wizard is more powerful than a 3.5 one. 3.0 didn't let you do things like SLA wish for arbitrary items for free (because it had a 15k GP cap), and didn't let you get Su abilities from shapechange. You got an extra action from haste, but who cares because in 3e you get an extra action from being a Chronotrynyn.

It depends on the level. A game might have very weak low-level wizards and all-powerful high level wizards, and the earliest games did.

A 17th level wizard from original D&D could cast a Wish spell every day, with no loss of experience points or any other penalty, and no limits on what it could do beyond what the DM chooses to impose.

If you know your DM well enough to stay out of trouble, nothing else comes close.

With shapechange to turn into a Zodar, a 3.5 Wizard can get an XP free wish every round, and in addition to sill having the "appeal to your DM" clause, it now has protected clauses.

[Tinkerer]

3e (specifically, 3.5) Wizard, not close. SLA wish means infinite stats and all spells at will from 11th level.



There is zero chance that a 3.0 Wizard is more powerful than a 3.5 one. 3.0 didn't let you do things like SLA wish for arbitrary items for free (because it had a 15k GP cap), and didn't let you get Su abilities from shapechange. You got an extra action from haste, but who cares because in 3e you get an extra action from being a Chronotrynyn.



With shapechange to turn into a Zodar, a 3.5 Wizard can get an XP free wish every round, and in addition to sill having the "appeal to your DM" clause, it now has protected clauses.

Regrettably not. You can shapechange into a Zodar and gain one wish per year. Player X is still Player X just now they are a Zodar as well. Otherwise you would be able to use the druids "A Thousand Faces" to gain infinite uses of any x per day item. Additionally there is a hard cap on how much you can wish for stats.

Now summoned wishes on the other hand you can do at will but a 2nd edition mage can do them as well.

[Cosi]

Regrettably not. You can shapechange into a Zodar and gain one wish per year. Player X is still Player X just now they are a Zodar as well. Otherwise you would be able to use the druids "A Thousand Faces" to gain infinite uses of any x per day item.

I don't think your Thousand Faces ability follows. Your per day items are not, given my understanding of the rules for form changing magic, something that you get for changing into your form. In any case, you only need one to get a Ring of Infinite Wishes -- which is a protected wish under 3.5 rules.

Additionally there is a hard cap on how much you can wish for stats.

There is a hard cap on how large of an inherent bonus you can get from wish. There's no cap on how big of a Belt of Magnificence you can get. I guess there's a soft cap based on XP costs, but you don't pay that, so who cares?

[ATHATH]

If it's not a class then i guess not.

Ah, in that case, a 3.5 Wizard with "like a bajillion" templates is probably the most powerful Wizard in the game... Unless Pun-Pun is on the table, in which case he'd be the most powerful.

[Tinkerer]

I don't think your Thousand Faces ability follows. Your per day items are not, given my understanding of the rules for form changing magic, something that you get for changing into your form. In any case, you only need one to get a Ring of Infinite Wishes -- which is a protected wish under 3.5 rules.

True, I only brought that up in response to you saying that you could Shapechange into a Zodar to gain one wish per round (assuming that you were using the free action to Shapechange into another Zodar to get around the 1/year restriction).

There is a hard cap on how large of an inherent bonus you can get from wish. There's no cap on how big of a Belt of Magnificence you can get. I guess there's a soft cap based on XP costs, but you don't pay that, so who cares?

Yeah, although I guess if we go by wish cheesing logic then any 3.X edition character becomes equally powerful at 5th/6th level (the first level that you can easily get infinite wishes to the best of my knowledge). I think the question was regarding characters who wouldn't be insta-banned.