[MtG] GitP Regulars as Magic the Gathering Cards

[Elricaltovilla]

Ooooh, I like this. Ninjas with morph, very appropriate. Very sneaky, very effective.

Morph was a severely underutilized mechanic.

[illyahr]

Morph was a severely underutilized mechanic.

Not when it was first released. Half the creatures in the set had it. The problem was that, of those cards, most of them weren't any good.

For example:

[Elricaltovilla]

Not when it was first released. Half the creatures in the set had it. The problem was that, of those cards, most of them weren't any good.

That's what I mean. Once they started adding flip effects to the morph cards they got better, but the mechanic was stuck on a bunch of crappy cards so it never really got the traction it needed to become an evergreen mechanic. It could have been a great evergreen IMO.

[Blue Ghost]

That's what I mean. Once they started adding flip effects to the morph cards they got better, but the mechanic was stuck on a bunch of crappy cards so it never really got the traction it needed to become an evergreen mechanic. It could have been a great evergreen IMO.

Morph is a really fun mechanic, but its presence significantly warps how a set plays. It's nice to see once in a while, but I wouldn't want every set to revolve around it. It's also extremely complicated, much more so than any evergreen mechanic.
The use of morph in Khans of Tarkir was excellent.

Not when it was first released. Half the creatures in the set had it. The problem was that, of those cards, most of them weren't any good.

For example:

Don't have the context for this, but this looks like a perfectly fine card for draft, one that I would be happy to play in an aggressive blue deck. The lack of constructed-viable cards could have been a problem though.

[Amechra]

I actually prefer Ninjas with Ninjutsu, mainly because it synergizes really well with ETB effects, both on the Ninja and on whatever you're returning to your hand.

[Xefas]

But here's my worst:

Did you... did you save one of my old avatars? Regardless, I'm flattered by your work.

Don't have the context for this, but this looks like a perfectly fine card for draft, one that I would be happy to play in an aggressive blue deck. The lack of constructed-viable cards could have been a problem though.

Would you mind elaborating on why it's good? Keeping in mind that I'm a scrub with minimal knowledge of the game. The only card I'm familiar with that compares directly with it is Sanctum Gargoyle.

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Which costs the same, same stats, flying, but instead of a downside, it has a significant upside. Granted, it doesn't have Morph, but I'm not sure why you would want to pay 3 to get a 2/2, just to turn around and pay 3 again for a 3/2 flying with a downside.

I understand the significance of Morph in terms of that Guardian Shinobi upthread - once it's down, it's like having an instant you can cast for 3 to give something indestructible, but it's not a spell, so I presume it can't be countered. That's neat. But why would you Morph the Ascending Aven?

[ThePurple]

[QUOTE=Xefas;21043362I understand the significance of Morph in terms of that Guardian Shinobi upthread - once it's down, it's like having an instant you can cast for 3 to give something indestructible, but it's not a spell, so I presume it can't be countered. That's neat. But why would you Morph the Ascending Aven?[/QUOTE]

In my experience, part of the value comes from your opponent not knowing what it will morph into: you've got a 2/2 on the board that has the potential to do a wide variety of very nasty things (or it could be kind of irrelevant). There's also the cost difference; I *believe* that, when morph was first released, there were some morph cards that had a really high converted mana cost but you could get them out 1-3 turns earlier by morphing them in (e.g. card with CMC of 6, place it on turn 3 and morphed on next turn for 4 mana).

It's a really versatile mechanic that had a lot of potential that ended up being squandered by having it be on a *lot* of mediocre cards.

[Snowbluff]

I actually prefer Ninjas with Ninjutsu, mainly because it synergizes really well with ETB effects, both on the Ninja and on whatever you're returning to your hand.

We should add a Ninjutsu effect and a combat damage to player effect to it.

[Blue Ghost]

]Would you mind elaborating on why it's good? Keeping in mind that I'm a scrub with minimal knowledge of the game. The only card I'm familiar with that compares directly with it is Sanctum Gargoyle.

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Which costs the same, same stats, flying, but instead of a downside, it has a significant upside. Granted, it doesn't have Morph, but I'm not sure why you would want to pay 3 to get a 2/2, just to turn around and pay 3 again for a 3/2 flying with a downside.

I understand the significance of Morph in terms of that Guardian Shinobi upthread - once it's down, it's like having an instant you can cast for 3 to give something indestructible, but it's not a spell, so I presume it can't be countered. That's neat. But why would you Morph the Ascending Aven?

The value of a card is dependent on the format in which it's played. Ascending Aven, like most commons, is indeed quite outclassed by other cards, and there are better options for constructed decks. But constructed isn't the only way to play Magic. One of the more popular formats is booster draft, in which you draft your deck from packs that you open. Magic sets, especially the commons, are largely balanced around booster draft. And in a draft, I'd be pretty happy to pick up an Ascending Aven in the middle of the pack if I were already starting on an aggressive blue deck. A 3/2 flyer for 4 mana is quite good, even by modern standards where creatures are significantly stronger on average than they were previously, as it hits very hard in the air and applies a lot of pressure. Having morph is a significant upside, as it gives a lot of flexibility. You can play it on turn 3 as a reasonable if unexciting creature, even if you haven't assembled the necessary colors, and you can either trade it off for an opposing morph immediately or flip it and start applying pressure in the air at any point in the future. On Ascending Aven in particular, having morph also offsets the downside, as if you need a creature to defend on the ground, you simply play it face-down and don't flip it until it's safe to do so. I haven't played the older sets, but from my experience with Khans of Tarkir, nearly any morph creature is playable in draft, if not a high pick. From what I've heard, part of the failure of the early implementations of morph was that while it was quite good in draft, very few if any morph cards were strong enough to be tournament playable in constructed decks.

I would say that Sanctum Gargoyle is better than Ascending Aven on average. But it's not strictly better. A 3/2 flyer is significantly better than a 2/3 flyer, and having morph boosts its value a lot. It's also in a different set, and the power levels of cards undergo some fluctuation according to the needs of the environment, as well as varying within a set.

We should add a Ninjutsu effect and a combat damage to player effect to it.

You mean in addition to morph? That would dilute the focus of the card. Elegance is key in card design.

[Blackhawk748]

I hated morph when it came out, as it was usually crap. I mean ya, you could save like a mana or 2 at the risk of losing it, but that was only really relevant in the first few turns. Khans (and to a lesser extend Dragons) of Tarkir did a very solid job on making you actually want to Morph your cards.

[Snowbluff]

You mean in addition to morph? That would dilute the focus of the card. Elegance is key in card design.

Pfft, there are WotC cards with upwards of 6 abilities. It's weird you made a ninja a morph rather than ninjutsu in the first place.

[Blue Ghost]

Pfft, there are WotC cards with upwards of 6 abilities. It's weird you made a ninja a morph rather than ninjutsu in the first place.

What cards do you have in mind? The ones I can think of are either older cards designed without modern sensibilities, or have the abilities in a tightly integrated package. Ninjutsu and morph actively clash with one another, since they play in similar spaces in both flavor and gameplay. I wouldn't put them in the same set, let alone the same card.

Yeah, using morph for ninjas doesn't have precedent in Magic, but I think it's a sensible design choice to make, and I think the flavor actually works better than ninjutsu.

[Snowbluff]

What cards do you have in mind? The ones I can think of are either older cards designed without modern sensibilities, or have the abilities in a tightly integrated package. Ninjutsu and morph actively clash with one another, since they play in similar spaces in both flavor and gameplay. I wouldn't put them in the same set, let alone the same card.

Yeah, using morph for ninjas doesn't have precedent in Magic, but I think it's a sensible design choice to make, and I think the flavor actually works better than ninjutsu.

Gitrog has 4, is Shadows. Akroma has too many on all of her cards, but this is the most recent one I think.


Take out the morph then. At 3 abilites, you have Kozilek the Great Distortion, Deathrite Shaman. The ETB from Injutsu works with the ETB indestructibility. Of course, it's weird but I think since the indestructibility is coming in at the combat damage step from Ninjutsu, you can save a creature.

[Amechra]

Blue Ghost, I kinda disagree with you. Ninjutsu is a vicious alpha-strike out of nowhere - Morph is a fog-of-war effect. The first fits "ninja sneak attack" better, and also emulates "I are stealth" better than Morph.

@Xefas: Nope, I just have a long memory.

[Blue Ghost]

Gitrog has 4, is Shadows. Akroma has too many on all of her cards, but this is the most recent one I think.


Take out the morph then. At 3 abilites, you have Kozilek the Great Distortion, Deathrite Shaman. The ETB from Injutsu works with the ETB indestructibility. Of course, it's weird but I think since the indestructibility is coming in at the combat damage step from Ninjutsu, you can save a creature.

Gitrog is one of the cards I meant by "tightly integrated package." And having a ton of evergreen abilities is Akroma's thing.
I'm not opposed to using ninjutsu instead of morph, just to using the two together. I still prefer the use of morph on this particular card, as a protector should be ready to defend at any time.

Blue Ghost, I kinda disagree with you. Ninjutsu is a vicious alpha-strike out of nowhere - Morph is a fog-of-war effect. The first fits "ninja sneak attack" better, and also emulates "I are stealth" better than Morph.

@Xefas: Nope, I just have a long memory.

Fair point. Thinking about it, yeah, ninjutsu does feel more ninja-like in gameplay, though the literal flavor ("Surprise! One of my creatures was actually a ninja all along!") is kinda silly. But I think morph is still a contender, and it's much more flexible a mechanic than ninjutsu. I think the game has room for ninjas of both persuasions.

[Xefas]

@Blue Ghost: Thank you for the explanation.

Anyway, Morph also feels like it could thematically be a disguise. Which is totally a thing ninjas did. A face-down ninja with Morph could look just like anyone's bear-wrestling concubine, or bear-wrestling chamber-pot-bearer or whatever. Then they get the signal and BAM, ninjas. I don't think disguised ninjas are silly or unreasonable.

[5a Violista]

I love hybrid and mixed-color cards.

Anyway, finally made one for Firedaemon, based off of the fact that the characters I remember best in FFRPG from FD were from Riverside and for some reason I think of vampires, which apparently were blue/black in that one set I remember. (Ravnica?)
I don't think I got the wording right, but it seems okay. Maybe I got the cost wrong, too, but it feels right.



Now...need to send PM to tell Firedaemon that I made a card.

Also, I successfully managed to convince myself to not make a -dere Red Fel. Thanks for doing that brain surgery: watching someone doing brain surgery is very mentally distracting and really brings back memories.

[Amechra]

Alright, I made a cycle (well, kinda - couldn't find anyone for Green). I trust everyone can find themselves?

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[Blackhawk748]

Ok, first things first, re uploading the broken images.

Spoiler: Red Fel

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Spoiler: Neophoenix

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Spoiler: Snowbluff

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Spoiler: Loyal and Fel

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Spoiler: Jallorn, this is your fault!

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Their Clan Namesake


And some tokens for them

[Jallorn]

I like this, though I would put a comma or colon behind ability triggers, especially the taps that also cost mana.

[Blackhawk748]

I like this, though I would put a comma or colon behind ability triggers, especially the taps that also cost mana.

Noted for future use, also just to confirm Kurotaka, The First Blackguard costs 3WBR.

[Jallorn]

On further thought, I think I don't really like Kurotaka himself, his combination of powers are really too much to balance, even with a large mana cost, and he doesn't feel very white to me, or even all that red. I might propose, instead, replacing Menace and Indestructable with First Strike and Vigilance. That way he has Vigilance (White), First Strike (Red), and Deathtouch (Black) as well as his Delirium "lifedrain" ability to cement that he is mostly black. It also amuses me that the two most expensive non-legendary cards in the clan are both white, and one of them is a simple clansman.

Also, I have the seed of an idea for a Bolster card that fits in with the Kurotaka, but probably isn't one, since Bolster doesn't really feel like their kind of mechanic.

[Blackhawk748]

On further thought, I think I don't really like Kurotaka himself, his combination of powers are really too much to balance, even with a large mana cost, and he doesn't feel very white to me, or even all that red. I might propose, instead, replacing Menace and Indestructible with First Strike and Vigilance. That way he has Vigilance (White), First Strike (Red), and Deathtouch (Black) as well as his Delirium "lifedrain" ability to cement that he is mostly black. It also amuses me that the two most expensive non-legendary cards in the clan are both white, and one of them is a simple clansman.

Also, I have the seed of an idea for a Bolster card that fits in with the Kurotaka, but probably isn't one, since Bolster doesn't really feel like their kind of mechanic.

Hmmm that may be a good idea. Hes indestructible cuz hes an Elder Evil, but ya thats a hard ability to balance around. Honestly he has Menace cuz i like it.

Hey, that Clansman is awesome.

Ya, Bolster (while a mechanic i enjoy) doesnt seem like their schtick.

Edit: I did what you recommended.

Also, just cuz you said something....

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[Jallorn]

Spoiler: Kurotaka Block additions

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Apparently I decided giants are a thing. I know how this happened, I was trying to find a Scottish samurai, but ended up with a Viking samurai, and now giants are a thing. Why are there so many? Well, I found a bunch of images that I decided would work for different things.

[Blue Ghost]

I’mma go through the Kurotaka cards and critique them. I’ll be applying the standards of modern card design to them. Sorry if I come across as overly harsh. I’m giving them my attention because I find them very interesting.

Overall: Non-evergreen mechanics like bushido, flanking, battle cry, etc. are not free to use. Using one means that you’re committing it as a set mechanic for the hypothetical set these cards go in. You probably want to choose one mechanic as your faction’s signature mechanic, and stick to that mechanic and evergreen mechanics for your designs.

Carrion Call: This is a really cool design. Development-wise, I think it needs to cost a lot more. Unconditional removal is hard to come by these days, and this gives you a bunch of flying tokens while you’re at it. I think it would be fair at 5 mana, maybe 6. And I think this effect is impactful enough that it needs to be on a rare. Crow is not a creature type; you’ll want to represent them as Birds.

Kurotaka Death Mage: Direct damage is a red ability. Black dabbles in it sometimes, but it needs to be attached to something else, like lifegain or death triggers. Black’s equivalent of damage would be giving -1/-1 until end of turn. Dealing 2 damage to 3 separate creatures is extremely powerful, and it’s not an ability I’d feel comfortable with on an uncommon at all.

Howling Horde: This is an interesting design. Complexity-wise it would probably be better at uncommon. The effect is more white, but I can see red getting it. This pushes toward a human tribal deck, which suggests that that’s a direction for your faction. If you don’t plan for the Kurotaka faction to have a lot of humans, and possibly more cards that care about them, the design doesn’t make much sense.

Crow Halls: Being able to get a token with deathtouch, at instant speed, every turn, is oppressive. That’s equivalent to killing any attacking ground creature. Repeatable effects are dangerous developmentally, and you have to be very careful with them. Doubly so with lands, which are extremely difficult to remove. A tool you can use is to make sacrificing the land part of the cost, and maybe make the effect bigger to compensate.

Clan Shrine: The effect is good, but again, I think it’s too strong of a repeatable effect to go on a land. This would be quite decent as a one-use effect. Even at one use, this is too impactful on a land to be common.

Kurotaka Blademaster: Bushido and flanking play in very similar space, so using both of them in the same set does not make much sense. I think bushido is much better than flanking as a mechanic, and I would stick with bushido here.

Kurotaka Ragecaller: While battle cry is a bit further away from flanking than bushido, I still feel they’re too similar to exist comfortably in the same environment. Granting haste only matters if you can play out other creatures on the same turn, which is difficult when this costs 3 mana.

Kurotaka Warcaller: Vigilance is a better ability to grant than haste. I don’t think the combination of abilities is strong enough to justify a 3-mana 1/1.

Kurotaka, First Blackguard: Delirium is a very build-around mechanic; it requires very specific support in deckbuilding to make it work. I don’t see any indication from the rest of the Kurotaka cards that a Kurotaka deck wants to trigger delirium. First strike and deathtouch is a very powerful combination that makes it largely invincible in battle, but that’s fine on a 6-mana mythic rare.

Kurotaka Shieldbreaker: A 4/3 with haste for 5 is quite a decent common. Not sure if adding firebreathing would be too strong, or require pushing to uncommon for complexity.

Honorable Jarl: Power level is fine, design is nice. Using a keyword ability is a big commitment; consider giving it a similar, unkeyworded ability?

Fettir Wolf: Nice simple card. I like it.

Storm Giant Berserker: Double strike is a very powerful ability, essentially doubling its power. 4/3 double strike might be okay at 6 mana, but it’s definitely pushing it. Adding undying is probably too much. Issue with cost of using keywords again.

Kuroth the Mightiest: How many giants do you expect to have around to sacrifice to him? Giants aren’t known for being cheap cannon fodder. The choice of double strike or trample, while relevant, is quite asymmetric considering the power difference between the two. Sacrificing a specific type of creature just to prevent 1 damage is really unimpressive. Again, implying a tribal theme in the set, with two different tribes this time.

Corrupter of Samurai: Gaining temporary control of creatures is a red ability. Since it doesn’t untap or grant haste, it can only be used defensively. Is this intentional?

Giantsblood Draught: Getting two 2/2 tokens seems so much more powerful than the other two modes. There are times that you’ll want to use the other modes, but they seem overshadowed by the first.

[Amechra]

Could we move the Kurotaka cards to their own thread - they're pretty interesting (not what I'd run, but cool all the same), but there's enough of them that they should get their own "thing".

[5a Violista]

Alright, I made a cycle (well, kinda - couldn't find anyone for Green). I trust everyone can find themselves?

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I found myself! I see I got transposed up a fifth from a violist to a violinist. I guess the violin-part of me is a very reddish aspect.
Thanks, Amechra. I like it. All four of them are pretty cool. Those images on their own are pretty neat, too. Plus, how all the cards are similar mechanically/thematically but have their own distinct pop: I like that part as well. I had to look up what half of the mechanics meant, but that's on me for not staying current with Magic.

Also, I agree about the Kurotaka cards: they are pretty neat, but they've grown populous enough to warrant their own thread instead of this one. If they had their own thread, I would probably contribute to them but as-is they're just no longer about GitP Regulars (even though they started out that way) and they would probably get better feedback/participation for them in their own thread anyway.

[Blackhawk748]

Spoiler: Kurotaka Block additions

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Apparently I decided giants are a thing. I know how this happened, I was trying to find a Scottish samurai, but ended up with a Viking samurai, and now giants are a thing. Why are there so many? Well, I found a bunch of images that I decided would work for different things.

Uh, Houston we have a problem. I cant see any of the cards you made.

[Blackhawk748]

Carrion Call: This is a really cool design. Development-wise, I think it needs to cost a lot more. Unconditional removal is hard to come by these days, and this gives you a bunch of flying tokens while you’re at it. I think it would be fair at 5 mana, maybe 6. And I think this effect is impactful enough that it needs to be on a rare. Crow is not a creature type; you’ll want to represent them as Birds.

Up the cost, got it. That was really the one thing i was worried about.

Kurotaka Death Mage: Direct damage is a red ability. Black dabbles in it sometimes, but it needs to be attached to something else, like lifegain or death triggers. Black’s equivalent of damage would be giving -1/-1 until end of turn. Dealing 2 damage to 3 separate creatures is extremely powerful, and it’s not an ability I’d feel comfortable with on an uncommon at all.

Howling Horde: This is an interesting design. Complexity-wise it would probably be better at uncommon. The effect is more white, but I can see red getting it. This pushes toward a human tribal deck, which suggests that that’s a direction for your faction. If you don’t plan for the Kurotaka faction to have a lot of humans, and possibly more cards that care about them, the design doesn’t make much sense.

Ok, so change the first one to a -1/-1 and then make him a Rare. Howling Horde appears to be fine.

Crow Halls: Being able to get a token with deathtouch, at instant speed, every turn, is oppressive. That’s equivalent to killing any attacking ground creature. Repeatable effects are dangerous developmentally, and you have to be very careful with them. Doubly so with lands, which are extremely difficult to remove. A tool you can use is to make sacrificing the land part of the cost, and maybe make the effect bigger to compensate.

Clan Shrine: The effect is good, but again, I think it’s too strong of a repeatable effect to go on a land. This would be quite decent as a one-use effect. Even at one use, this is too impactful on a land to be common.

What if i made them cost life as well?

Kurotaka Blademaster: Bushido and flanking play in very similar space, so using both of them in the same set does not make much sense. I think bushido is much better than flanking as a mechanic, and I would stick with bushido here.

Kurotaka Ragecaller: While battle cry is a bit further away from flanking than bushido, I still feel they’re too similar to exist comfortably in the same environment. Granting haste only matters if you can play out other creatures on the same turn, which is difficult when this costs 3 mana.

Kurotaka Warcaller: Vigilance is a better ability to grant than haste. I don’t think the combination of abilities is strong enough to justify a 3-mana 1/1.

So make these cheaper, and drop Battlecry.

Also, I agree about the Kurotaka cards: they are pretty neat, but they've grown populous enough to warrant their own thread instead of this one. If they had their own thread, I would probably contribute to them but as-is they're just no longer about GitP Regulars (even though they started out that way) and they would probably get better feedback/participation for them in their own thread anyway.

I have become a monster

[Jallorn]

I’mma go through the Kurotaka cards and critique them. I’ll be applying the standards of modern card design to them. Sorry if I come across as overly harsh. I’m giving them my attention because I find them very interesting.

Overall: Non-evergreen mechanics like bushido, flanking, battle cry, etc. are not free to use. Using one means that you’re committing it as a set mechanic for the hypothetical set these cards go in. You probably want to chooe one mechanic as your faction’s signature mechanic and stick to that mechanic and evergreen mechanics for your designs.

Only replying here because I'm on my phone and our would be much harder to do the work seeing this up on another thread atm. I was figuring on Bushido being a faction independent mechanic for the set, and then each faction would have a more signature mechanic.

Honorable Jarl: Power level is fine, design is nice. Using a keyword ability is a big commitment; consider giving it a similar, unkeyworded ability?

Case in point, the Honorable Jarl is envisioned as part of a green white (and probably black because the Kurotaka are wedge) faction ysing Bolster as their unique mechanic.

Storm Giant Berserker: Double strike is a very powerful ability, essentially doubling its power. 4/3 double strike might be okay at 6 mana, but it’s definitely pushing it. Adding undying is probably too much. Issue with cost of using keywords again.

Yeah, this one kind of got away from me. perhaps 3/1 would be better, putting it more in line with 6/6 giants with abilities that exist on occassion. I'm torn about undying because I really like it as a berserker fury thing, surviving wounds that should kill and being scarier for it, but it suggests a faction, and it puts the card in black red, which the Kurotaka already have under lock. Perhaps regenerate could work as red green. Needs more thought.

Kuroth the Mightiest: How many giants do you expect to have around to sacrifice to him? Giants aren’t known for being cheap cannon fodder. The choice of double strike or trample, while relevant, is quite asymmetric considering the power difference between the two. Sacrificing a specific type of creature just to prevent 1 damage is really unimpressive. Again, implying a tribal theme in the set, with two different tribes this time.

Not a ton, hence the very powerful abilities (though admittedly being instant speed, trample is decidedly a less powerful ability. Perhaps drop trample? It's rather green anyway.)
For human sacking, I wanted something white, something protective, but which wasn't too powerful, which I judged Protection to be. Of course, we run into the problem of Kurotaka already being white wedge again, something I'm not satisfied with.
[/quote]
Corrupter of Samurai: Gaining temporary control of creatures is a red ability. Since it doesn’t untap or grant haste, it can only be used defensively. Is this intentional?[/quote]
No the haste and untap being mousing is an oversight.I'm not opposed to aging red to the Corrupter.

Giantsblood Draught: Getting two 2/2 tokens seems so much more powerful than the other two modes. There are times that you’ll want to use the other modes, but they seem overshadowed by the first.

Yeah, I thought so. Not sure whether to retool ip to 1 3/3, or 3 1/1s, or something else.