Sell me on 5th edition

[Tanuki Tales]

So, you had made up your mind about 5e at launch, lurked enough to know you still didn't like it, created a thread that literally asked us to sell you on 5e knowing we couldn't, then proceeded to immediately tell us we haven't changed, are wrong, and are having badwrongfun and you should never have stepped foot out of your 3.Paradise. And you wonder why responses to you have degraded since??

I lurked after posting the thread, so please stop trying to make this into being a bait thread, so as to justify your position.

[Zman]

I lurked after posting the thread, so please stop trying to make this into being a bait thread, so as to justify your position.

I'm just saying all it took was one hour and fourty-eight minutes and five posts for you to reconfirm your established opinion and make strong blanket statements, so it looks like a thread in bad faith to me. I have no need to reaffirm my position.

If it looks likes a duck....

[pwykersotz]

I lurked after posting the thread, so please stop trying to make this into being a bait thread, so as to justify your position.

Irony!

But seriously, more power to you. I love 3.5 and 3.P. 5e is my current baby, but if you have no reason to move off of them, by all means keep going!

5e is useful for a lot of people like your friend who found issue with a great number of the common complaints of 3rd. Wizards being literal gods, breakable combos, non-obvious traps, the list goes on. But that same suite of choices produces incredible customization and versatility. So while your friend is right to say that going back to 3.P is like going back to a bad relationship, it's also right to say that 3rd is incredibly strong and useful. It's just a style difference.

[Tanuki Tales]

Irony!

But seriously, more power to you. I love 3.5 and 3.P. 5e is my current baby, but if you have no reason to move off of them, by all means keep going!

5e is useful for a lot of people like your friend who found issue with a great number of the common complaints of 3rd. Wizards being literal gods, breakable combos, non-obvious traps, the list goes on. But that same suite of choices produces incredible customization and versatility. So while your friend is right to say that going back to 3.P is like going back to a bad relationship, it's also right to say that 3rd is incredibly strong and useful. It's just a style difference.

We weren't in any, way, shape or form, "friends", but I appreciate the post.

Though after the July UA, it seems Wizards hasn't stopped being the abusive mother-in-law, even if 5.0 is totted as the perfect girlfriend.

[the secret fire]

Boys, you have to burn the trolls after they drop, not keep talking to them.

[Baptor]

Boys, you have to burn the trolls after they drop, not keep talking to them.

This is a true saying worthy of full acceptance. Anyone have alchemist fire or an acid flask?

[Kryx]

"I'm sorry you feel that way"... Wow. At least take ownership of your purposefully demeaning words.

Or better yet, go away.

[Tanuki Tales]

"I'm sorry you feel that way"... Wow. At least take ownership of your purposefully demeaning words.

Or better yet, go away.

I do really feel bad you happen to feel this way, but nothing forces you come into the thread.

It's been mostly decided though that the thread has run its course, unless you have something further to add you believe will help sway my opinion on finding a facet of 5th edition that I would ultimately find enjoyable to play. I don't mind being proven wrong, though sufficient evidence to sway me has yet to be presented.

Edit:

Also, your avatar is adorable! Where's it from?

[mgshamster]

"I'm sorry you feel that way" as a response to someone claiming that you're insulting them is entirely condescending, and once again something the Paizo folks would have disapproved of. It's yet another style of post that would have been deleted on the Paizo messageboards while you deride the GitP forum users for been "abrasive."

If you weren't a jerk and you honesty didn't mean to cause any of this, then you'd apologize for insulting an entire group of people and you'd apologize for setting up a bait thread for an edition war. If you refuse to do that, then it only shows that the negative attitudes you attribute to others is really only coming from yourself.

[JumboWheat01]

If it looks likes a duck....

...it's clearly some bizarre creation bred up by an extremely bored wizard with way too many years left in his life.


As for evidence about 5th Edition being a good one to play? It's legally available for free. Maybe not all the rules, but you can get a basic set of rules for free, straight from Wizards of the Coast. It means you can still play your favorite edition, and try out 5th without spending a single coin on it.

Now if only more things had a "try-before-you-by" free version.

[Tanuki Tales]

As for evidence about 5th Edition being a good one to play? It's legally available for free. Maybe not all the rules, but you can get a basic set of rules for free, straight from Wizards of the Coast. It means you can still play your favorite edition, and try out 5th without spending a single coin on it.

Now if only more things had a "try-before-you-by" free version.

Which rules are left out exactly and how vital are they to actual game play?

[JumboWheat01]

You're not going to have access to all classes and features with the free basic rules. Clerics only have the Life Domain, Wizards as Evokers, things like that. You won't have all the spells available in the PHB either (like those for Druids or Paladins exclusively, for instance.) Absolutely nothing is missing that will stop you from being able to play the game, just not everything is available to you.

[Tanuki Tales]

You're not going to have access to all classes and features with the free basic rules. Clerics only have the Life Domain, Wizards as Evokers, things like that. You won't have all the spells available in the PHB either (like those for Druids or Paladins exclusively, for instance.) Absolutely nothing is missing that will stop you from being able to play the game, just not everything is available to you.

Which is why I like Pathfinder, since you basically have access to everything non-adventure path related, without having to pay a single red cent to Paizo.

Pity, that would have made me really give it a hard look over if they had an inclusive SRD.

[R.Shackleford]

Which rules are left out exactly and how vital are they to actual game play?

http://www.5esrd.com

Edit

If Paizo wasn't horrible to people at the beginning and if they actually fixed the 3e rule set I would have stayed with them. Sadly they were complete jerks to people being polite and they didn't actually fix anything from 3e...

Using a bow as a standard action provokes OA but not if you use it as a full action... Heal people by drowning them... Quadratic wizard linear fighter .. Attack bonus out scaling AC... etc...

[JumboWheat01]

Which is why I like Pathfinder, since you basically have access to everything non-adventure path related, without having to pay a single red cent to Paizo.

Pity, that would have made me really give it a hard look over if they had an inclusive SRD.

Well then, if a free trial version isn't convincing to you to at least try it, there's nothing else that can be done. Have a nice day.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well then, if a free trial version isn't convincing to you to at least try it, there's nothing else that can be done. Have a nice day.

I already bought the beginner's box, as mentioned earlier in the thread, so I have enough material for a trial.

Appreciate your input though.

[R.Shackleford]

I already bought the beginner's box, as mentioned earlier in the thread, so I have enough material for a trial.

Appreciate your input though.

Was you talking about a 5e srd earlier?


http://www.5esrd.com

[Tanuki Tales]

Was you talking about a 5e srd earlier?


http://www.5esrd.com

I saw the link and appreciate it, but it's more like an srd-lite. I just clicked on the barbarian and I don't even get to see the entire bog standard class, only one facet of it.

[R.Shackleford]

I saw the link and appreciate it, but it's more like an srd-lite. I just clicked on the barbarian and I don't even get to see the entire bog standard class, only one facet of it.

Umm... No, it isn't a srd-lite, it is the SRD.

[Tanuki Tales]

Umm... No, it isn't a srd-lite, it is the SRD.

At 3rd level, you choose a path that shapes the nature of your rage. Only the "Path of the Berserker" is detailed here. Additional paths are described in the official source material, as well as in products by other publishers. The choice grants you features at 3rd level and again at 6th, 10th, and 14th levels. Additional paths are available in the original source material.

This, to me, qualifies it as an SRD-lite. If I can't even find the base core rules on it, it's a pretty bad "system reference document".

[ZX6Rob]

5th edition is good for what it is, but I'm really getting into 7th edition right now. Really solid, well-balanced, plenty of character options without being overwhelming, a great job at preserving both DM and player agency, excellent combat system that's streamlined but still tactical, and a focus on preserving story and narrative during play. Plus it comes with a free hot dog!

[MaxWilson]

This, to me, qualifies it as an SRD-lite. If I can't even find the base core rules on it, it's a pretty bad "system reference document".

Then you have a different idea for the "base core rules" than WotC does. What you're looking for is in the PHB, which costs $30-50. There is no free version of the PHB.

[Tanuki Tales]

5th edition is good for what it is, but I'm really getting into 7th edition right now. Really solid, well-balanced, plenty of character options without being overwhelming, a great job at preserving both DM and player agency, excellent combat system that's streamlined but still tactical, and a focus on preserving story and narrative during play. Plus it comes with a free hot dog!

Bah! You're a fool of a Took for not holding out for the Chili Dog that comes with the collector reprint after 8th edition launched!

Edit:

Then you have a different idea for the "base core rules" than WotC does. What you're looking for is in the PHB, which costs $30-50. There is no free version of the PHB.

Good thing Paizo basically gave you that for Pathfinder. Really lowering the hurdle for getting into the game.

[R.Shackleford]

Then you have a different idea for the "base core rules" than WotC does. What you're looking for is in the PHB, which costs $30-50. There is no free version of the PHB.

And calling the SRD, not the SRD is very disingenuous land borderline deceit.

You can make people think that 5e doesn't have a SRD when it really does.

[Tanuki Tales]

And calling the SRD, not the SRD is very disingenuous land borderline deceit.

You can make people think that 5e doesn't have a SRD when it really does.

I'm sorry you feel that way about my word choice, but I guess it's silly to expect WotC to let another OGL bite away their profit margins for an entire edition twice in a row.

[RickAllison]

The SRD isn't supposed to entirely replace the rule books (otherwise, why would you ever buy them? A comprehensive SRD with every bit of information is something that is released at the end of a product's lifespan, not the beginning. Really, asking for a 5e SRD that includes all the options in the PHB rather than single examples is to advocate financial stupidity). It contains all the rules necessary to play, examples of the class archetypes so anyone can homebrew their own, and is completely free!

The point of the SRD is so that anyone can homebrew and any given group only needs one copy of a book to note any book-specific information. Heck, more than a few libraries stock the books so groups can rely on the SRD and just check out the books when they need feats or class features to write down on the character sheet. Between traditional sharing and easy access to illegal copies for free, it is rather surprising that they would furnish the majority of the main two books for free.

[Tanuki Tales]

The SRD isn't supposed to entirely replace the rule books (otherwise, why would you ever buy them? A comprehensive SRD with every bit of information is something that is released at the end of a product's lifespan, not the beginning. Really, asking for a 5e SRD that includes all the options in the PHB rather than single examples is to advocate financial stupidity).

Paizo did it and pretty much crushed 4th edition in sales revenue....so...not really?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Coming from someone who prefers 3.P, 5e definitely has its uses:

- It's a good "compromise" system for a group that has some rules-lite folks and some rules-heavy folks (this is why I'm currently playing it, for instance).
- Relatedly, there are more people playing 5e nowadays, so if you find yourself LFG you might want to familiarize yourself with 5e.
- It's a good way to introduce someone to RPGs who wants to try "Dungeons and Dragons." (If brand isn't a big deal, there are different rules-lite systems I'd recommend instead, like Dungeon World if you want to stick with Western medieval fantasy.)
- It has better balance than 3e - meaning both the tricks and the pratfalls can be pretty easily avoided - without feeling too much like a tactical miniatures skirmish game.
- Some of the mechanics really are elegant and worthwhile to examine in their own right, for instance combat movement, ritual casting and concentration. They also ported over some good things that 4e did, like actually-relevant damage cantrips.

You already know what it lacks relative to 3.P: Granularity, options, set game expectations, player empowerment, explicit input-based monster tweaking tools, mountains of fun content, etc. No need to get too snippy about it.

[CantigThimble]

Paizo did it and pretty much crushed 4th edition in sales revenue....so...not really?

Releasing a book for free will definitely drive down sales for that book. However it can increase sales for related products and once people have invested money in those products they sometimes go back and purchase a hard copy. However, while pathfinder has dozens of related books 5e has two. (DMG and SCAG)

[Tanuki Tales]

Releasing a book for free will definitely drive down sales for that book. However it can increase sales for related products and once people have invested money in those products they sometimes go back and purchase a hard copy. However, while pathfinder has dozens of related books 5e has two. (DMG and SCAG)

That was their knee jerk reaction to splat-glut though, wasn't it?

I mean, I know WotC has a pretty bad track record for quality control, but if they actually put time and a vetting process into it, splat books aren't a bad thing.