Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

[profitofrage]

I found that all the progression "math" fits easily on a character sheet. typically less then the gear section of most others.
likewise I also didnt find the math all too confusing, less then 2 dice below how many you've rolled? easy. 1 below or the same , difficult. more than challenging.

Going by what everyone has said in the thread, I still cant shake the feeling that the majority of the complaints stem from a lack of skinners box immediate progression style rewards.
Burning wheel's progression is meant to reflect events in the story, making it MORE story focused. Aragon didnt need to train his swordsman skills during LoTR because he started as a legendary swordsman. This is likewise possible in BW, your starting skills can sometimes be VERY VERY high. Your meant to already be playing the sort of character you want to be.

Likewise if immediate improvement or gratification is what your after, Artha is present. Every point of Artha you get is a boost you take with you along the ride. If your coming from a game of DnD where your expected to fight "Cr appropriate encounters" , roleplaying and story can and often take a back seat and character progression is just numbers in your XP field BW is going to be a serious shock. That said, I have not had a single player who has not fallen in love with the system when they were looking for a change.

sick of your teammates not Roleplaying there characters? Play BW, they will have to keep up.
Sick of munchkins? Play Burning wheel, you cant minmax without creating a glass cannon.
Sick of class based systems? Play Burning Wheel, character creation is limitless with lifepaths and custom lifepaths.
sick of combat that is dry, long, complicated and yet still boils down to "I hit it with my sword" Play burning wheel it has dynamic combat, simple combat and several other "Versions" of combat you can pick and choose from.
Sick of character progression being just killing monsters? Play Burning Wheel, you advance as you use skills (assuming you make the minor change to rules because having to specifically get easy tests is retarded.)

Sick of ROLLplaying? Play Burning wheel, every roll has consequences or its not bothered with. Your playing the exciting parts, not listening to the rogue mugging a random guy for 45 minutes of your play session.

[Koo Rehtorb]

It's really not very hard to keep track of advancement. You already need to count out the number of dice you're gathering for a test. It takes like three additional seconds to consult the chart and calculate the difficulty along with that. And that's before you've memorized the most common numbers.

[BayardSPSR]

Burning wheel's progression is meant to reflect events in the story, making it MORE story focused.

Where does this come from? I thought people have been saying the progression comes out of taking tests of specific difficulties, which doesn't sound story-related at all.

sick of your teammates not Roleplaying there characters? Play BW, they will have to keep up.
Sick of munchkins? Play Burning wheel, you cant minmax without creating a glass cannon.
Sick of class based systems? Play Burning Wheel, character creation is limitless with lifepaths and custom lifepaths.
sick of combat that is dry, long, complicated and yet still boils down to "I hit it with my sword" Play burning wheel it has dynamic combat, simple combat and several other "Versions" of combat you can pick and choose from.
Sick of character progression being just killing monsters? Play Burning Wheel, you advance as you use skills (assuming you make the minor change to rules because having to specifically get easy tests is retarded.)

Sick of ROLLplaying? Play Burning wheel, every roll has consequences or its not bothered with. Your playing the exciting parts, not listening to the rogue mugging a random guy for 45 minutes of your play session.

To be honest, it sounds like you're trying to sell everyone on BW as the solution to every problem anyone could possibly have, and insisting that any criticism of it is either in error or in bad faith.

[kyoryu]

I found that all the progression "math" fits easily on a character sheet. typically less then the gear section of most others.
likewise I also didnt find the math all too confusing, less then 2 dice below how many you've rolled? easy. 1 below or the same , difficult. more than challenging.

Going by what everyone has said in the thread, I still cant shake the feeling that the majority of the complaints stem from a lack of skinners box immediate progression style rewards.

Congratulations. You have an opinion. It is not the opinion of everyone in this thread. That does not mean that you get to say that everyone else is addicted to Skinner box progression. Doing so says more about YOU than anyone else.

You know what my group went to, from Burning Wheel? Fate. A game with even LESS focus on mechanical progression.

And I never said progression was HARD math, just more than my players wanted to fiddle with at the table. So much so that they didn't bother. And if they were truly wanting advancement mechanics, wouldn't that be the FIRST thing they'd do?

So, no. You are wrong. There are reasons, VALID ones, to dislike Burning Wheel (and I WANTED to like it, I TRIED to like it) that have nothing to do with being locked into a D&D style mentality or an addiciton to Skinner box style progression.

Once you can come to grips with that, then *perhaps* a discussion is viable.

sick of your teammates not Roleplaying there characters? Play BW, they will have to keep up.
Sick of munchkins? Play Burning wheel, you cant minmax without creating a glass cannon.
Sick of class based systems? Play Burning Wheel, character creation is limitless with lifepaths and custom lifepaths.
sick of combat that is dry, long, complicated and yet still boils down to "I hit it with my sword" Play burning wheel it has dynamic combat, simple combat and several other "Versions" of combat you can pick and choose from.
Sick of character progression being just killing monsters? Play Burning Wheel, you advance as you use skills (assuming you make the minor change to rules because having to specifically get easy tests is retarded.)

Is BW your first non-D&D game? You do realize that there are a GREAT many games out there that hit these points that aren't BW. MANY. And many more that hit the majority of them.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Where does this come from? I thought people have been saying the progression comes out of taking tests of specific difficulties, which doesn't sound story-related at all.

It's designed that way to produce a sort of story beat. It works to force people into pushing past their limits, making them fail important scenes, crushing their hopes and dreams, but making them stronger as a result of it.

[profitofrage]

Congratulations. You have an opinion. It is not the opinion of everyone in this thread. That does not mean that you get to say that everyone else is addicted to Skinner box progression. Doing so says more about YOU than anyone else.

You know what my group went to, from Burning Wheel? Fate. A game with even LESS focus on mechanical progression.

And I never said progression was HARD math, just more than my players wanted to fiddle with at the table. So much so that they didn't bother. And if they were truly wanting advancement mechanics, wouldn't that be the FIRST thing they'd do?

So, no. You are wrong. There are reasons, VALID ones, to dislike Burning Wheel (and I WANTED to like it, I TRIED to like it) that have nothing to do with being locked into a D&D style mentality or an addiciton to Skinner box style progression.

Once you can come to grips with that, then *perhaps* a discussion is viable.



Is BW your first non-D&D game? You do realize that there are a GREAT many games out there that hit these points that aren't BW. MANY. And many more that hit the majority of them.

Congratulations on also having an opinion? Apparently me talking about a feeling I have has somehow invalidated your opinion enough that you typed this little rant.

You may not have said its hard math, but its less math then is required then most other systems people have played. Why complain about the math if its not hard? dont try and back peddle a comment because you realise it doesn't make sense in context.
Most people playing RPG's will find BW no more math heavy then any other. Rather then bothering with class levels, xp, traits e.t.c you just keep track of what tests you have done. You get one or two a session max. If anything its LESS math then the majority of systems out there.

You can screech and moan, but I say you doth protest too much. My entire point was simply that if your used to constant "here is 300 xp for your trouble" every session then YES it MIGHT be a shock going to BW. You DONT get these little rewards all the time (that do nothing anyway until you hit a certain limit where you can finally improve).

I also dont see how you can suddenly declare me "wrong" by saying there are valid reasons for not liking BW... I never said there wasn't.
Your just projecting. Frankly you seem far more insecure about my skinner box comment then you are about talking about any of the points I actually stated. Which says a lot about you more then anyone else to steal a phrase :P

To be honest, it sounds like you're trying to sell everyone on BW as the solution to every problem anyone could possibly have, and insisting that any criticism of it is either in error or in bad faith.

Not really, and its not a solution to every problem ever.... just the ones I stated. if your problem is "I like combat really crunchy and I like simulationist games" then no, do not touch BW.
If however you want lots of Roleplaying, BW has it in spades, its practically enforced and rewards it when you do it well.

[kyoryu]

Just out of curiosity, how many sessions of BW have you actually played, and have you played other games besides D&D?

I mean... BW is noted for actually being fairly crunchy, you know that, right?

[ImNotTrevor]

Burning Wheel is at least as crunchy as D&D. I mean, I watched the Roll20 presents for Burning Wheel and it took them 3 hours to make characters for 4 players. The second time around it took 4 hours (one full session) plus the first hour of another session, totalling 5 hours. Only two of the players hadn't played it before.

As a point if contrast:
Playing Apocalypse World we made characters for 4 people in 20 minutes, and that's in part thanks to technical difficulties with Skype.

So yeah, just using character creation as our yardstick gives Burning Wheel a pretty high place on the crunch-o-meter

[profitofrage]

Just out of curiosity, how many sessions of BW have you actually played, and have you played other games besides D&D?

I mean... BW is noted for actually being fairly crunchy, you know that, right?

The character creation is crunchy, I did specifically say combat. And in BW you can literally resolve combat in a single roll.

Ive played in 2 campaigns and DMed 4. Likewise I have played DnD, pathfinder, Dark heresy (and all the games associated with it) Call of Cthulhu and I even played the dreaded The Riddle of Steel. Ive recently tried my hand at shadow run and played a few sessions of WoD.

That said, you can burn a BW character in minutes with an online helper, you just choose life paths and allocate your skill points. I played a "Dark Souls" style game where the group was burning up characters several times a session.

[Knaight]

You may not have said its hard math, but its less math then is required then most other systems people have played. Why complain about the math if its not hard? dont try and back peddle a comment because you realise it doesn't make sense in context.
Most people playing RPG's will find BW no more math heavy then any other. Rather then bothering with class levels, xp, traits e.t.c you just keep track of what tests you have done. You get one or two a session max. If anything its LESS math then the majority of systems out there.

This is ridiculous. Burning Wheel is way, way over on the rules heavy end of the spectrum. There's fairly few RPGs where you have to worry about levels (let alone multiclassing and levels), Burning Wheel is on the complicated end with its experience system tracking multiple types of experience for every skill, and that's without getting into the sheer number of incredibly narrow skills, the FoRK mechanics, and a whole bunch else. It's arguably lighter than D&D, but that doesn't really mean much.

The character creation is crunchy, I did specifically say combat. And in BW you can literally resolve combat in a single roll.

Sure, but you're expected to break out Fight! every so often, and Fight! is a crunch fest.

[profitofrage]

This is ridiculous. Burning Wheel is way, way over on the rules heavy end of the spectrum. There's fairly few RPGs where you have to worry about levels (let alone multiclassing and levels), Burning Wheel is on the complicated end with its experience system tracking multiple types of experience for every skill, and that's without getting into the sheer number of incredibly narrow skills, the FoRK mechanics, and a whole bunch else. It's arguably lighter than D&D, but that doesn't really mean much.


Sure, but you're expected to break out Fight! every so often, and Fight! is a crunch fest.

fairly few RPG's that dont worry about levels, well that is news to me :P
multiple types of experience for every skill? what are you talking about? there is ONE, i.e what tests you have completed per skill.
The skills in the game are simple as all hell, there not narrow either. There meant to be descriptive. Cook and Baking will both let you make bread for e.g some skills are literally listed without descriptions of what they do. i.e its all just fluff, pick things that make sense for your character to have and what they mean is up to everyone in the game. You honestly didn't think you need the "spear fishing" skill before your allowed to throw a spear into the water? go ahead and use Survival. its fine its meant to be FLUFFY not Crunchy.

How is FoRK likewise crunchy or hard? "whats that? you have another skill that can be vaguely related to the test your doing? here is a free +1 dice."

also "Its lighter then the most popular RPG of all time, and the game that many of the consecutive most popular games are based on." I think means plenty. If you asked the average joe on this board to name 10 systems, I best BW would be at the lower end of that list in terms of crunchiness / complexity.

Its only "difficult" to understand because you have to read the book and get where there going with it all. I learnt the game in a few days once I grasped the basic concept of "its all meant to be broad representative dice / skills" thing. Again, I can understand why people who come from games like DnD e.t.c find it hard to wrap there head around.

The only part Ill give you is that Fight is complicated to start with. However... there are only a few actions you do in Fight. If you start to consider all the combat feats alternate actions class specific actions e.t.c of games like DnD, Dark Heresy or whatever it suddenly doesn't seem all that bloody hard.

[BayardSPSR]

fairly few RPG's that dont worry about levels, well that is news to me :P
multiple types of experience for every skill? what are you talking about? there is ONE, i.e what tests you have completed per skill.
The skills in the game are simple as all hell, there not narrow either. There meant to be descriptive. Cook and Baking will both let you make bread for e.g some skills are literally listed without descriptions of what they do. i.e its all just fluff, pick things that make sense for your character to have and what they mean is up to everyone in the game. You honestly didn't think you need the "spear fishing" skill before your allowed to throw a spear into the water? go ahead and use Survival. its fine its meant to be FLUFFY not Crunchy.

How is FoRK likewise crunchy or hard? "whats that? you have another skill that can be vaguely related to the test your doing? here is a free +1 dice."

also "Its lighter then the most popular RPG of all time, and the game that many of the consecutive most popular games are based on." I think means plenty. If you asked the average joe on this board to name 10 systems, I best BW would be at the lower end of that list in terms of crunchiness / complexity.

Its only "difficult" to understand because you have to read the book and get where there going with it all. I learnt the game in a few days once I grasped the basic concept of "its all meant to be broad representative dice / skills" thing. Again, I can understand why people who come from games like DnD e.t.c find it hard to wrap there head around.

The only part Ill give you is that Fight is complicated to start with. However... there are only a few actions you do in Fight. If you start to consider all the combat feats alternate actions class specific actions e.t.c of games like DnD, Dark Heresy or whatever it suddenly doesn't seem all that bloody hard.

The mechanics you are describing are relatively intricate. Also, having rules for things is kind of the opposite of "fluff" on the fluff/crunch binary. These are things that make whatever it is you're doing in-character take longer, especially Forking (which I imagine could go on for a pretty long time, if the player just keeps naming things).

Fight may not be the heaviest combat mechanic, but it does have one of the steepest learning curves in an RPG system that I've seen; it makes "roll initiative, roll to hit, roll damage" look intuitive (speaking as someone who does not come from D&D, or like it).

D&D is one of the rules-heaviest RPGs that is remotely widely played; being lighter than it isn't saying that much. It's the heaviest I've played, and one of the three heaviest I've read rules for (the two being BW and GURPS, which are roughly equivalent to it in weight relative to every other RPG I've ever seen). My exposure to RPGs is far from total (I certainly wouldn't call it extensive), but the list of games I've encountered lighter than it is fairly long. Apocalypse World, Dungeon World, Monsterhearts, Fate Core, Dog Eat Dog, Engine Heart, Dogs in the Vineyard, and Blue Rose are all the ones that come to mind at the moment, not to mention a handful of forgettable D20 things and arguably a couple OSR things (especially Swords & Wizardry White Box and Lamentations of the Flame Princess). Most of these also don't have levels, for the record, and this list isn't based on particular efforts to seek out rules-light systems. I'm also only naming games I've read the rules to.

I'm also comparing these to just the "hub and spokes" version of BW, which I understand to be less than the full version. Of course, this whole thing is subjective, but I hope it makes the point that the diversity of games that could be reasonable perceived as "lighter" than BW is immense.

And I'm still not convinced it's lighter than the D&D editions I've played, let alone read the rules to.

EDIT: And I don't think that it's bad, or that it's bad that it's heavy. Just to be clear.

[Lorsa]

sick of your teammates not Roleplaying there characters? Play BW, they will have to keep up.

It's not a problem for me, since roleplaying is what I come to the table to do. Me and my friends have done that long before BW ever entered the stage. If I have people in the group who is not roleplaying their characters, I find it a much easier solution to simply not play with them. For the people who do not want to roleplay their characters, I doubt a system trying to "force" them to do so will help at all. The only reason why BW would be a solution to roleplaying is if you (the one choosing to play it) find that you need the system to help you do so.

Really, you can't use a system to force others to roleplay...

Sick of munchkins? Play Burning wheel, you cant minmax without creating a glass cannon.

Better alternative; don't play with munchkins in the first place. The munchkin mentality is hardly going to disappear just because you switch system. All that it's going to do is either make them frustrated because they can't get what they want out of the game, or, more likely, they'll try to minmax in BW as well. Seriously, you *can* munchkin in BW as well. All you have to do is select the lifepaths that grants you the most skills and/or traits and buy that super quality armor which almost never breaks.

Sick of class based systems? Play Burning Wheel, character creation is limitless with lifepaths and custom lifepaths.

If I am sick of class based systems there's a plethora of other systems to choose from. Actually, class based systems are in a minority. It's interesting though that you have to mention "custom" lifepaths to get limitless character creation. In any case, it's really not limitless, as the lifepaths themselves offer clear limitations (you can't choose X unless you already have Y or if you choose X you age by Y years).

sick of combat that is dry, long, complicated and yet still boils down to "I hit it with my sword" Play burning wheel it has dynamic combat, simple combat and several other "Versions" of combat you can pick and choose from.

The Fight! system was one of the major selling points of BW for me. I would like a system that gives more options for martial classes in a fight than what is common for many systems. However, I found that the BW implementation was a major headache to GM, as I had to sit with 3-6 sheets of papers and scribble down what each opponent was going to do, trying to figure out some tactic that was both changing and in-character for the specific opponents. Also, in the end it all boils down to the armor roll anyway.

Sick of character progression being just killing monsters? Play Burning Wheel, you advance as you use skills (assuming you make the minor change to rules because having to specifically get easy tests is retarded.)

Character progression has never been just killing monsters in any games I've GMed. In the most recent one, which is a SWN-inspired setting using the Eclipse Phase ruleset (minus all the transhumanism gear stuff, as the setting is SWN-inspired), I award XP both for challenging experiences (adventures) and time that pass (training while the ship spends time in spikedrive).

If you really want non-killing monster advancement, a better alternative would be Ars Magica, where the best advancement comes from not going on adventures at all.

Sick of character progression just being killing monsters is hardly a reason to play BW. I'd say that "if you want your character advancement to be only from using skills, play BW (or any of the other systems that have similar idea)".

Sick of ROLLplaying? Play Burning wheel, every roll has consequences or its not bothered with. Your playing the exciting parts, not listening to the rogue mugging a random guy for 45 minutes of your play session.

Again, ROLLplaying was never a problem for me. In the above mentioned campaign, I spent a weekend playing with my friend (almost 30 hours of play time), and as a GM I rolled exactly 3 rolls. That's like what? One per 10 hours of play time? My player did a few more rolls though, I'd say maybe 1 per hour on average. You hardly need BW to avoid ROLLplaying.

[BayardSPSR]

Better alternative; don't play with munchkins in the first place. The munchkin mentality is hardly going to disappear just because you switch system. All that it's going to do is either make them frustrated because they can't get what they want out of the game, or, more likely, they'll try to minmax in BW as well. Seriously, you *can* munchkin in BW as well. All you have to do is select the lifepaths that grants you the most skills and/or traits and buy that super quality armor which almost never breaks.

Speaking of which, I want to point out that a system being heavy enough to enable munchkinry (that is, a game sufficiently heavy that not just optimization is possible, but optimization that does not appear to have been foreseen by the designers) is a heavy game. Munchkin-potential is an indicator of that (but not a measure of it).

Also, I forgot to mention WTF&WTF (Wisher, Theurgist, Fatalist, and Weaver of Their Fates), which is manageably light if you strip out the parody mechanics (which I suspect to have taken a tidbit of their inspiration from BW).

Again, ROLLplaying was never a problem for me. In the above mentioned campaign, I spent a weekend playing with my friend (almost 30 hours of play time), and as a GM I rolled exactly 3 rolls. That's like what? One per 10 hours of play time? My player did a few more rolls though, I'd say maybe 1 per hour on average. You hardly need BW to avoid ROLLplaying.

Wow, that's a lot of hours - and sounds like a lot of fun. What were you using for that?

[profitofrage]

And I'm still not convinced it's lighter than the D&D editions I've played, let alone read the rules to.
.

Sure ok, I totally completely disagree with you, but that's the nature of opinions. I have and probably soon will again teach people BW in a play session (4 hours?) so if that makes it intricate or complex then I guess I will just have to check out all these other systems :P

as for Lorsa, posting alternatives to all the things I mentioned doesn't really detract from the good points about burning wheel.
1) im not at all surprised that a roleplayer may have roleplayed before hearing about another RPG...
2) Many people dont know there playing with munchkins or ARE munchkins. Again it isnt a hard fast way to avoid them, it just DISCOURAGES the behaviour and makes ROLEPLAYING A CHARACTER the BEST thing to do in the system.
3) they literally give you guides on how to make more lifepaths, so yes its limitless. That is like me saying Fate is limited because it didnt tell me exactly how to play a mind controlling gunslinger worm. It gives me all the tools I need to BE one and to MAKE it though...which I would think counts. Trying to pick it apart by saying "Oh but you wont always be allowed to make a 200 year old character" is just nitpicking at this point.
4)BW revised's fight mechanics in my opinion are not as fluid or as interesting as the original's was. it was simpler and more elegant. Likewise Armor was not nearly as powerful (though still powerful).
I have had talks about the Armour system actually as I too find it to be out of balance with the way wounds work e.t.c
I find that a good solution is that instead of having it be a flat save instead treat it like an opposed test. more successes reduces the effective "pow" of the attack making it more likely to be a superficial wound e.t.c
5) I am not surprised that a fault in most games was quickly changed and fixed by DM's who want to have fun in other ways. But the whole point is that no you DONT just level up using skills, you level up by roleplaying. One of the most powerful things you can do for your character is to earn enough Artha to grey scale or earn traits through gameplay.
6) I forgot that apparently noone has ever had this problem. I must have come up with the term in my mind somehow :P

When it comes to the question of "Is Burning Wheel Dead" I think I know why now, I think that certain view points have given it a bad impression. That certain misunderstandings (some the systems fault, case in point easy tests) has left it in a limbo where people think having lots of skills means the skills must be narrow, or that talking about consequences somehow means nonsensical situations arising out of nowhere or giving PC's meta knowledge.
I would love to play mouseguard since apparently its similar but without the stigma.

[BayardSPSR]

When it comes to the question of "Is Burning Wheel Dead" I think I know why now, I think that certain view points have given it a bad impression. That certain misunderstandings (some the systems fault, case in point easy tests) has left it in a limbo where people think having lots of skills means the skills must be narrow, or that talking about consequences somehow means nonsensical situations arising out of nowhere or giving PC's meta knowledge.
I would love to play mouseguard since apparently its similar but without the stigma.

This isn't a stigma thing. The reason it may be "dead" (if indeed it is) isn't just misunderstandings; it's that it's not giving many many people anything that other RPGs aren't doing more plausibly, more smoothly, or for whatever reason in line with their preferences. People who prefer other things aren't misguided.

[profitofrage]

This isn't a stigma thing. The reason it may be "dead" (if indeed it is) isn't just misunderstandings; it's that it's not giving many many people anything that other RPGs aren't doing more plausibly, more smoothly, or for whatever reason in line with their preferences. People who prefer other things aren't misguided.

Ok new idea then, Can you suggest to me a game that does:

1) detailed character generation that prioritises character fluff and represents this mechanically rather then just giving me a text box to fill.

2) both a dynamic combat system with interesting play by play AND a quick method of combat resolution

3) a game where the key mechanical progression is based per skill with bonuses e.t.c with roleplaying.

4) a social combat mechanic of any kind

5) a rule system that prioritises meaningful moments and encourages a fast pace to story insignificant moments and a more slow interactive experience during moments that matter.

6) any system with roll-forward mentality baked into the game as well as a "let it roll" system so that as a stealth character im not rolling stealth until I inevitably fail as one example.

7) the core mechanic is simple enough that its easy to understand what every "skill" does and its results of any test are without having to look things up.

Because in my experience BW is the only system I've found that does all of them.

[Lorsa]

Wow, that's a lot of hours - and sounds like a lot of fun. What were you using for that?

Yeah, the lots of hours comes from when you go to meet someone over a weekend specifically to play RPG.

As I said, we used to Eclipse Phase rules (because we are quite familiar with them) to play a Stars Without Number inspired campaign. The character comes from a WW2 tech era planet that has discovered and learnt how to operate a spaceship left on their planet long ago. Since there is only one player, his character got to be the commanding officer of the ship (it's a military project), choose his own crew and then head out to investigate space.

[BayardSPSR]

Ok new idea then, Can you suggest to me a game that does:

1) detailed character generation that prioritises character fluff and represents this mechanically rather then just giving me a text box to fill.

2) both a dynamic combat system with interesting play by play AND a quick method of combat resolution

3) a game where the key mechanical progression is based per skill with bonuses e.t.c with roleplaying.

4) a social combat mechanic of any kind

5) a rule system that prioritises meaningful moments and encourages a fast pace to story insignificant moments and a more slow interactive experience during moments that matter.

6) any system with roll-forward mentality baked into the game as well as a "let it roll" system so that as a stealth character im not rolling stealth until I inevitably fail as one example.

7) the core mechanic is simple enough that its easy to understand what every "skill" does and its results of any test are without having to look things up.

Because in my experience BW is the only system I've found that does all of them.

I'm not saying BW isn't unique; I'm saying that it doesn't seem to outdo the competition at very many things. The social combat thing's unique, certainly, but it does not seem to be something many people prioritize; likewise for having two combat systems. They're a bit gimmicky. Also, the "let it ride" thing is more explicitly formalized in BW, but the practice is far from unique to it; in many games that aren't D&D-related, where time isn't measured in turns or rounds, it can be assumed. Similarly, the "roll-forward" thing is a concept from improv theater that many people consider "good GMing." Yes, BW is unique in that it has mechanics for all of these things, but these aren't things that the RPG design community consensus seems to think demand mechanics. This is what makes BW relatively heavy and relatively slow-paced: it has mechanics to do things that many other games expect to happen without them.

Aside from that, -World games and Fate Core cover a lot of the bases, though whether you would prefer them is of course subjective. But I also wouldn't say that BW ticks all those boxes relative to the other things out there (especially any criteria relating to intuitive mechanics or fast pace).

Again, I'm not saying this is bad, I'm just trying to explain my impression of why many of the people with exposure to it aren't that interested in playing it long-term. It does things - it just doesn't do the things they want better than other games. And of course, this doesn't represent everyone; people do like it and play it regularly. But that doesn't seem to be your question.

As I said, we used to Eclipse Phase rules

Ah, okay. Missed that in the fast-moving thread.

(By the way, is there a legal and free version of that somewhere on the internets? It's one of the many games I'm curious about, but not enough to throw money at.)




EDIT: Back on BW: I want to add that I'm pretty sure I'm not misunderstanding the rules, because after reading them I watched the guy who designed the game run a demo of it (online). Hopefully he wasn't playing it wrong.

[Lorsa]

as for Lorsa, posting alternatives to all the things I mentioned doesn't really detract from the good points about burning wheel.

It kinda does in a way if you're saying "these are the reasons you should play BW; it solves these problems" and I say "I don't need BW to 'fix' any of those problems, because I either don't have them or have better fixes".

Then you can say "BW is still a fun system to play!" to which I said "there are some things in it which makes it rather un-fun", to which you replied "if you remove those things and play it with these houserules I have, THEN it's fun!". To that I can only say "sure, it will most likely be more fun to play profitofrage's houseruled BW than original BW". I'm still not sure why you have this burning desire to sell me on the system though, it's like you're trying to trample us under a wheel.

1) im not at all surprised that a roleplayer may have roleplayed before hearing about another RPG...
2) Many people dont know there playing with munchkins or ARE munchkins. Again it isnt a hard fast way to avoid them, it just DISCOURAGES the behaviour and makes ROLEPLAYING A CHARACTER the BEST thing to do in the system.
3) they literally give you guides on how to make more lifepaths, so yes its limitless. That is like me saying Fate is limited because it didnt tell me exactly how to play a mind controlling gunslinger worm. It gives me all the tools I need to BE one and to MAKE it though...which I would think counts. Trying to pick it apart by saying "Oh but you wont always be allowed to make a 200 year old character" is just nitpicking at this point.
4)BW revised's fight mechanics in my opinion are not as fluid or as interesting as the original's was. it was simpler and more elegant. Likewise Armor was not nearly as powerful (though still powerful).
I have had talks about the Armour system actually as I too find it to be out of balance with the way wounds work e.t.c
I find that a good solution is that instead of having it be a flat save instead treat it like an opposed test. more successes reduces the effective "pow" of the attack making it more likely to be a superficial wound e.t.c
5) I am not surprised that a fault in most games was quickly changed and fixed by DM's who want to have fun in other ways. But the whole point is that no you DONT just level up using skills, you level up by roleplaying. One of the most powerful things you can do for your character is to earn enough Artha to grey scale or earn traits through gameplay.
6) I forgot that apparently noone has ever had this problem. I must have come up with the term in my mind somehow :P

1) So you can see why I don't need BW to do that for me?
2) Uh no? If you don't know you're playing with munchkins then it can hardly be a problem for you can it?
3) Pretty sure the 3.5 DMG gives you advice for how to make new classes, so I guess D&D is limitless too? Perhaps it is nitpicking a bit, I totally agree, I blame my inner troll.
4) Making that proposed change to the armor system would be a good step towards making the combat system more interesting to me. But now we're moving into profitofrage house-rule territory again and not original BW.
5) While leveling up by roleplaying sounds good in theory, it really isn't in practice. Someone who is new to roleplaying, who might be a bit introvert, shy or otherwise not confident enough to really roleplay their character fully might get a bit turned off by the fact that the system is against them. Roleplaying is a thing many people have to get into with time, and requires you to feel confident around the other players. So yeah, good for experienced players but a slap in the face for newcomers.
6) Sure, some people might be doing a lot of ROLLplaying. I doubt that this is a problem though, since if they're doing it, one would imagine it's because they like to play RPGs this way? There is really no game I know of that forces you to ROLLplay (well, unless we're talking board games like Descent).

Ah, okay. Missed that in the fast-moving thread.

(By the way, is there a legal and free version of that somewhere on the internets? It's one of the many games I'm curious about, but not enough to throw money at.)

No problem.

Yes, Eclipse Phase is entirely free and legal. Just google it and you'll find a download page belonging to one of the developers where you can get most stuff.

Otherwise you can always give me your e-mail address and I can send you all the pdf's I have. It's all published under the creative commons license.

[ImNotTrevor]

Ok new idea then, Can you suggest to me a game that does:

1) detailed character generation that prioritises character fluff and represents this mechanically rather then just giving me a text box to fill.

2) both a dynamic combat system with interesting play by play AND a quick method of combat resolution

3) a game where the key mechanical progression is based per skill with bonuses e.t.c with roleplaying.

4) a social combat mechanic of any kind

5) a rule system that prioritises meaningful moments and encourages a fast pace to story insignificant moments and a more slow interactive experience during moments that matter.

6) any system with roll-forward mentality baked into the game as well as a "let it roll" system so that as a stealth character im not rolling stealth until I inevitably fail as one example.

7) the core mechanic is simple enough that its easy to understand what every "skill" does and its results of any test are without having to look things up.

Because in my experience BW is the only system I've found that does all of them.

Apocalypse World
Dungeon World
Every Powered By the Apocalypse System that understands what PbtA means, actually.

:D

Edit: for clarification.

They might not hit the requirement for 1, depending on what you mean by Detailed, but otherwise it works.

2, just yup. Combat is really fast, and as deep as you want it with the Optional Battle Rules (I've never had to use them, but I could if I wanted to.)

Doesn't quite do 3 because no skills, but it's a close enough approximation that I still count it.

4 works because physical and social combat involve exactly the same mechanics. :D

5 is obvious to anyone who has played a PbtA system.

6 is accomplished with the Act Under Fire move.

7 requires a bit of referring to the rules for specifics (usually for the GM, though) but interpreting a roll is easy.
Less than 6? Bad.
Between 7 and 9? Good, but with a complication.
10+? All good.

So yeah. PbtA does all these things or very close approximations of them.

[BayardSPSR]

Yes, Eclipse Phase is entirely free and legal. Just google it and you'll find a download page belonging to one of the developers where you can get most stuff.

Fantastic! Don't know why I couldn't find it the first time I searched, but I've found it now. Thanks!

[CharonsHelper]

I'm still not sure why you have this burning desire to sell me on the system though, it's like you're trying to trample us under a wheel.

I've gotta ask - pun intended?

[Lorsa]

I've gotta ask - pun intended?

Very much so.

[AMFV]

Apocalypse World
Dungeon World
Every Powered By the Apocalypse System that understands what PbtA means, actually.

I would say that if he's really into Burning Wheel, PBtA might not be for him, because it's kind of crunch-lite. I think that people who are into Burning Wheel are likely to be fonder of crunchy systems. Which is, contrary to many people on the Playground's claims, a fairly common stance among some people. I personally don't like less crunch, I like enough I can sink my teeth into.

[Max_Killjoy]

Where does this come from? I thought people have been saying the progression comes out of taking tests of specific difficulties, which doesn't sound story-related at all.

That's also the impression I get from reading up on it, elsewhere and here.

To be honest, it sounds like you're trying to sell everyone on BW as the solution to every problem anyone could possibly have, and insisting that any criticism of it is either in error or in bad faith.

Yeah.. that does seem to be what's going on here.

It's the convert's fallacy -- "I had all these problems, and then I found this thing that solved them! Therefore anyone who hasn't found this thing must still have all those problems!"

[kyoryu]

Ok new idea then, Can you suggest to me a game that does:

1) detailed character generation that prioritises character fluff and represents this mechanically rather then just giving me a text box to fill.

2) both a dynamic combat system with interesting play by play AND a quick method of combat resolution

3) a game where the key mechanical progression is based per skill with bonuses e.t.c with roleplaying.

4) a social combat mechanic of any kind

5) a rule system that prioritises meaningful moments and encourages a fast pace to story insignificant moments and a more slow interactive experience during moments that matter.

6) any system with roll-forward mentality baked into the game as well as a "let it roll" system so that as a stealth character im not rolling stealth until I inevitably fail as one example.

7) the core mechanic is simple enough that its easy to understand what every "skill" does and its results of any test are without having to look things up.

Because in my experience BW is the only system I've found that does all of them.

Well, Fate hits all of them, except for #3. Now who's addicted to character advancement mechanics?

And if you think Fate doesn't do #1, then you don't understand Fate.

[ImNotTrevor]

I would say that if he's really into Burning Wheel, PBtA might not be for him, because it's kind of crunch-lite. I think that people who are into Burning Wheel are likely to be fonder of crunchy systems. Which is, contrary to many people on the Playground's claims, a fairly common stance among some people. I personally don't like less crunch, I like enough I can sink my teeth into.

PbtA is fairly crunchy... just not the same kind of crunch as found in D&D. In other words, you won't be finding a lot of tables and numbers.

But the rulebook for Apocalypse World is still around 200 pages and is full of actual content.

So I'm hesitant to call it rules-light, though it certainly isn't math-and-tables heavy.

That, and I wasn't recommending a system. Just pointing out a family of them that met his criteria.

[Airk]

Not going to get into the whole Burning Wheel kerfuffle here, just going to answer the second part of the subject:

I think ALL systems should be played more, except for D&D(/Pathfinder) and the handful of extremely... problematic ones (FATAL and Friends).

[AMFV]

PbtA is fairly crunchy... just not the same kind of crunch as found in D&D. In other words, you won't be finding a lot of tables and numbers.

But the rulebook for Apocalypse World is still around 200 pages and is full of actual content.

So I'm hesitant to call it rules-light, though it certainly isn't math-and-tables heavy.

That, and I wasn't recommending a system. Just pointing out a family of them that met his criteria.

There certainly are a few, the reason I made the distinction was that it's important to note some of the differences. The crunch is fundamentally a very different kind of crunch. Also Burning Wheel tends to favor a little bit more set-up and pre-work, whereas PBtA is completely against that (it's actually against the design goals of the system).