Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

[mouser9169]

Am I the only one who thinks Eugene won't be happy if he does get into the LG afterlife?

I suppose that would be the ultimate poetic justice for him, but I think he'd be happier with a sidegrade into one of the neutral planes. That's the beauty of the alignment based D&D afterlife system: everyone gets to go where they'll be most likely to be happy (even the evil people - Xykon's comment notwithstanding) and can live their afterlife the way they lived their lives.

[dancrilis]

Am I the only one who thinks Eugene won't be happy if he does get into the LG afterlife?

I suppose that would be the ultimate poetic justice for him, but I think he'd be happier with a sidegrade into one of the neutral planes. That's the beauty of the alignment based D&D afterlife system: everyone gets to go where they'll be most likely to be happy (even the evil people - Xykon's comment notwithstanding) and can live their afterlife the way they lived their lives.

I would imagine that free beer and sex might be nice for him - and he would likely be able to study if he was that way inclined.

And Evil people generally don't like where they end up - exceptions do apply - but normally the ruling Fiends are not overly big on the souls having the afterlife that the souls want and more on the souls having the afterlife that the Fiends want them to have.

[TheWolfe]

Eugene wants to go there because he thinks LG is the best or most respectable alignment. He wants to be the best at everything, and he desperately wants validation for being the best. So he wants to go into the LG afterlife because he wants to be able to say "Look, see how Good and Lawful and amazing I am? Aren't I amazing?"

[Rogar Demonblud]

True, but you have to remember that in the Lower Planes, new arrivals come in two flavors--someone to torment, and someone to recruit.

[Psyren]

I doubt he's thought about it too much; he knows his wife and son are already there, and so that's enough reason for him to at least apply (or it was, until he swore Roy's oath.)

I personally think he'd be happier in TN with Julia, who is more like him anyway.

[ChillerInstinct]

Speaking as someone who sees themselves as an afterlife or two sideways of Lawful, you've got to admit, the way Celestia was depicted was pretty legit. Quite literally Heaven. While we're yet to see (or will likely ever see) Elysium, the Beastlands, and the other Good afterlifes in-comic, it's hard to imagine them being much better. Not necessarily WORSE, of course, it's just hard to compete with literal near-perfection.

[Souhiro]

Well, somebody who could AGREE in absolute omnicide to further his plans would be skyrocketeed to the Chaotic Evil Afterlife.


Sad part is that somehow I can find Eugene's idea... interesting.
Don't get me wrong: I would say that "Saving the world" is Plan A. But in case of "Everything Fails" and the world would be destroyed, I think that calling all the dwarves, tell them that they have 24 hours to die in combat or otherwise they'll end in Hel's hands.

Also... I would found hillarious, since I think I've found a BIG HOLE in The Dark One's plan!

[dancrilis]

Speaking as someone who sees themselves as an afterlife or two sideways of Lawful, you've got to admit, the way Celestia was depicted was pretty legit. Quite literally Heaven. While we're yet to see (or will likely ever see) Elysium, the Beastlands, and the other Good afterlifes in-comic, it's hard to imagine them being much better. Not necessarily WORSE, of course, it's just hard to compete with literal near-perfection.

... they make you live in your parents house initially in order to make you feel guilty, it is not a bug but a feature.

The implication is that they are emotionally manipulating you to force you to comply with there vision of who you should be - allowing you to get what you want, but with a background level that you should want better things.

This would help to guide you up the mountain where you can eventually be devoured by the gods for your delicious soul power.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

... they make you live in your parents house initially in order to make you feel guilty, it is not a bug but a feature.

The implication is that they are emotionally manipulating you to force you to comply with there vision of who you should be - allowing you to get what you want, but with a background level that you should want better things.

This would help to guide you up the mountain where you can eventually be devoured by the gods for your delicious soul power.

A couple of comments: first, Roy's archon suggests that the "give me something to feel guilty about" is something the patrons want, rather than something the various angelic creatures impose. Living with your closest relative is the most efficient way of acclimating and giving that bit of guilt to their charges, so they use it.

Second, all the other planes probably have their own version of "it's not a bug, it's a feature" as well (in fact, wasn't it confirmed by Rich at some point? I cast Summon Banana!). For example, in the CG you are probably encouraged to be stoned out of your mind 24/7 (I picture it as a series of eternal hippy/bacchanal/frat/etc. parties) - and you can imagine Haley saying "wait, I can steal all the gold I want from the vault of the bank with easily duped guards, but I'll barely care about it because I'll be high?" and so on for the other environments.

Grey Wolf

[TheLastBaron]

The "Is Eugene really LG?" speculation is interesting to me, and I tend to fall back to this:

He's been judged worthy of entering "LG Heaven," but is barred due to the Blood Oath thing. He identifies as LG and it seems like his "ticket in" is secure, barring that little detail. Since his death, he's kinda been stuck in limbo, going back and forth between the physical plane and "outside the gates," so to speak.

His ideas and schemes may seem sketchy, and even appear to stray into Neutral or even Chaotic territory, but his ultimate goal is (capital G) Good; at this point, anything he says or does can't really count against his ticket into "heaven," right? He is no longer mortal (or at least, no longer physically tied to a meat-and-bone body) and so his actions now don't count as "what he did when he was alive" and can't count against his afterlife. He's IN his afterlife, just kinda "Waiting at King's Cross," so to speak.

His treatment of his son and his somewhat-sketchy motives don't actually affect his alignment, just what we readers think of him. He can suggest weird solutions, badmouth his son and his ideas, and generally act like an ass, but none of those things are necessarily chaotic or evil, right?

Long time reader, occasional poster here. Thoughts?

[Skull the Troll]

I'm not sure Eugene has thought it out that far. He is such a narcisist that he really really can't see any fault at all with himself. Anything that makes things better for him is good, and is indifferent if it helps others. He shows some significant psychotic symptoms. So I'm sure he expects to end up in the LG afterlife. Once he got there he would spend all of his time in the Debate Hall where you are always right and be happy as a clam. That said I really doubt he is going to the LG afterlife. Roy almost got "Chucked into the true neutral" bin because he left Elan to be captured by bandits. (#498) What saved him was his intentions and that he learned his lessons. None of that applies to Eugene.

[Ruck]

The "Is Eugene really LG?" speculation is interesting to me, and I tend to fall back to this:

He's been judged worthy of entering "LG Heaven," but is barred due to the Blood Oath thing. He identifies as LG and it seems like his "ticket in" is secure, barring that little detail. Since his death, he's kinda been stuck in limbo, going back and forth between the physical plane and "outside the gates," so to speak.

His ideas and schemes may seem sketchy, and even appear to stray into Neutral or even Chaotic territory, but his ultimate goal is (capital G) Good; at this point, anything he says or does can't really count against his ticket into "heaven," right? He is no longer mortal (or at least, no longer physically tied to a meat-and-bone body) and so his actions now don't count as "what he did when he was alive" and can't count against his afterlife. He's IN his afterlife, just kinda "Waiting at King's Cross," so to speak.

His treatment of his son and his somewhat-sketchy motives don't actually affect his alignment, just what we readers think of him. He can suggest weird solutions, badmouth his son and his ideas, and generally act like an ass, but none of those things are necessarily chaotic or evil, right?

Long time reader, occasional poster here. Thoughts?

My thoughts are mainly

1)I'm not so sure he has been judged worthy of Celestia;
2)The argument that "Good is not nice" is one made many times in defense of Eugene, but it also fails to address how he behaves the rest of the time. Both when he was alive and now that he's dead, Eugene's primary motivation has been "What benefits Eugene." That's not what drives a Lawful Good character. We have seen no evidence that he actually lived a Lawful Good life; just that he wanted to be thought of as Lawful Good.

[Jasdoif]

Second, all the other planes probably have their own version of "it's not a bug, it's a feature" as well (in fact, wasn't it confirmed by Rich at some point? I cast Summon Banana!).

Well, sort of.

Because I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

He wants to climb that mountain and get to the top.

[ChillerInstinct]

Well, sort of.

Also relevant, from the same thread.

So yes, the endgame for all afterlifes is basically to be turned into fuel for the gods, whether Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaos, Valhalla and Hel, and everything inbetween. Like the old "ascend to a higher plane of existence" trope, much like waiting to order a deluxe hotdog at the stand, eventually you are made one with everything.

So in that regard, Celestia is no worse (or better) than any other afterlife-- but it's what happens to you BEFORE you're turned into divine Vespene Gas. And honestly, what we've seen of Celestia is pretty hard to top.

[Mightymosy]

Am I the only one who thinks Eugene won't be happy if he does get into the LG afterlife?

I suppose that would be the ultimate poetic justice for him, but I think he'd be happier with a sidegrade into one of the neutral planes. That's the beauty of the alignment based D&D afterlife system: everyone gets to go where they'll be most likely to be happy (even the evil people - Xykon's comment notwithstanding) and can live their afterlife the way they lived their lives.

Well, from the introduction of Roy's archon, there is at least one place Eugene will likely find very appealing given his previous pastime activities in ghost form.

[ti'esar]

I've actually been a little curious about this: clearly, it's important to Eugene to be Lawful Good. It's a trait he evidently passed onto his son, who was nearly declared NG except that he tries to be Lawful. But why does he value that particular alignment so highly? Is LG more "socially acceptable" than other alignments because of its nature (and would Eugene actually care if that was the case)?

[DaggerPen]

Maybe Fyron was LG and Eugene's trying to be reunited with him?

[KillingAScarab]

Maybe Fyron was LG and Eugene's trying to be reunited with him?

That's the best argument I can think of, especially after this most recent comic. I think there is a strong possibility Eugene has managed to change alignment while he was dead and I would not be surprised if he is allowed into the afterlife, but it isn't the lawful good one. For what it is worth, his ghost gets a blue aura when manifesting currently, but that could just be for following the northern pantheon.

[Ruck]

That's the best argument I can think of, especially after this most recent comic. I think there is a strong possibility Eugene has managed to change alignment while he was dead and I would not be surprised if he is allowed into the afterlife, but it isn't the lawful good one. For what it is worth, his ghost gets a blue aura when manifesting currently, but that could just be for following the northern pantheon.

Is there some established guideline for what different auras mean in spirits or extraplanar beings?

Great username, BTW.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I've actually been a little curious about this: clearly, it's important to Eugene to be Lawful Good. It's a trait he evidently passed onto his son, who was nearly declared NG except that he tries to be Lawful. But why does he value that particular alignment so highly? Is LG more "socially acceptable" than other alignments because of its nature (and would Eugene actually care if that was the case)?

I'd guess it's something he picked up from his father, knowingly or not, since Horace is also on the mountain.

Is there some established guideline for what different auras mean in spirits or extraplanar beings?

The gods are color-coded by pantheon, but not otherwise that I've seen mentioned in the trivia thread.

[tomandtish]

The "Is Eugene really LG?" speculation is interesting to me, and I tend to fall back to this:

He's been judged worthy of entering "LG Heaven," but is barred due to the Blood Oath thing. He identifies as LG and it seems like his "ticket in" is secure, barring that little detail. Since his death, he's kinda been stuck in limbo, going back and forth between the physical plane and "outside the gates," so to speak.

His ideas and schemes may seem sketchy, and even appear to stray into Neutral or even Chaotic territory, but his ultimate goal is (capital G) Good; at this point, anything he says or does can't really count against his ticket into "heaven," right? He is no longer mortal (or at least, no longer physically tied to a meat-and-bone body) and so his actions now don't count as "what he did when he was alive" and can't count against his afterlife. He's IN his afterlife, just kinda "Waiting at King's Cross," so to speak.

His treatment of his son and his somewhat-sketchy motives don't actually affect his alignment, just what we readers think of him. He can suggest weird solutions, badmouth his son and his ideas, and generally act like an ass, but none of those things are necessarily chaotic or evil, right?

Long time reader, occasional poster here. Thoughts?

As has been brought up in the thread about this strip, there are some of us who aren't entirely sure that he actually did earn entry.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness Spoilers

Show

There's a possibility that the screener was reading along, saw nothing concerning SO FAR, came upon the Blood Oath, and stopped at that point. If that's true, then he could have 18+ years of unjudged behavior.

My thoughts are mainly

1)I'm not so sure he has been judged worthy of Celestia;
2)The argument that "Good is not nice" is one made many times in defense of Eugene, but it also fails to address how he behaves the rest of the time. Both when he was alive and now that he's dead, Eugene's primary motivation has been "What benefits Eugene." That's not what drives a Lawful Good character. We have seen no evidence that he actually lived a Lawful Good life; just that he wanted to be thought of as Lawful Good.

Exactly. The biggest thing about Eugene is that (IMHO) we have NEVER seen him act in a "Good" manner. Even Miko seemed to be acting good on occasion.

[KillingAScarab]

Is there some established guideline for what different auras mean in spirits or extraplanar beings?

The gods are color-coded by pantheon, but not otherwise that I've seen mentioned in the trivia thread.

Blue is also the color for divine magic derived from the twelve gods. Blue auras were also seen for the sapphire guard when they smite evil and summon/dismiss special mounts. Even Tsukiko had blue magic effects (and heterochromia).

For spirits, Roy's aura was blue when he visited the material plane (but couldn't be seen). Soon also had a blue aura while leading the fallenrecently-dead paladins (which did not have auras) in attacking Xykon.

Great username, BTW.

It goes better with my signature.

[dancrilis]

the fallen paladins (which did not have auras)

Fallen Paladins are a specific thing, and those were not that thing (as far as we know), those were merely regular ghost paladins.

[Psyren]

Well, sort of.

Also relevant, from the same thread.

So yes, the endgame for all afterlifes is basically to be turned into fuel for the gods, whether Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaos, Valhalla and Hel, and everything inbetween. Like the old "ascend to a higher plane of existence" trope, much like waiting to order a deluxe hotdog at the stand, eventually you are made one with everything.

So in that regard, Celestia is no worse (or better) than any other afterlife-- but it's what happens to you BEFORE you're turned into divine Vespene Gas. And honestly, what we've seen of Celestia is pretty hard to top.

To add to these excellent quotes, it can even be the moral thing to do to sacrifice your identity like this. Fueling the Good gods ensures that they can keep up the Good fight (quite literally) and keep evil gods like Hel from torturing other mortal souls and creating a Crapsack World below. You're not allowed to go back yourself - which is a good thing, because if you could, the evil gods could make the case for bringing back their worst champions and vilest tyrants who have passed on, and the little guy would suffer most. So the good souls agree to stay away to prevent that, and eventually the only way to go is up.

Note further that none of the Good afterlives force you. You can in fact retain your individual identity as long as you want to - simply don't climb to the top of the mountain. If you want eternity as you, nothing is stopping you. But one of the downsides of human identity is human curiosity; after several millennia of sex and great food and winning every debate and what have you, you're going to eventually get bored with the familiar. Not to mention the inherent selfishness of believing your personal identity is more important than the greater Good your patron can accomplish with your energy, and rejoining the cycle.

[Ruck]

Exactly. The biggest thing about Eugene is that (IMHO) we have NEVER seen him act in a "Good" manner. Even Miko seemed to be acting good on occasion.

Yep. We see Miko do a large number of things in the service of the forces of Good, even if she is a jerk who is personally deluded about her place in the universe and eventually loses her mind. Eugene is entirely concerned with himself-- his only interest in people seems to be whether he can use them to further his goals, or whether he can brag to them about his accomplishments.

It goes better with my signature.

Ah, see, I usually keep signatures blocked. That's great. Reminds me that a spambot named "Robert Smith" posted on another forum I read recently offering loans. That led to brainstorms like "Friday I'm in Debt" and "In Between Paydays."

[SaintRidley]

He's been judged worthy of entering "LG Heaven," but is barred due to the Blood Oath thing. He identifies as LG and it seems like his "ticket in" is secure, barring that little detail. Since his death, he's kinda been stuck in limbo, going back and forth between the physical plane and "outside the gates," so to speak.

Where's the idea that he's actually even been fully judged come from? Roy got judged, and Eugene acted with surprise and anger, which heavily implies it's something Eugene has not been extended the benefit of. The Oath is keeping him from receiving proper judgment, as far as I see it, and when he is judged he will find that the judgment does not find him worthy.

[dancrilis]

Where's the idea that he's actually even been fully judged come from?

Spoiler: Prequel Book

Show

Can't remember which one presumedly OtOotPCs. His interview occured, the only hiccup mentioned was the Blood Oath.

Panel 10, that is how the Celestials roll - and Panel 6-8 is why they roll that way.

[TheLastBaron]

[QUOTE=dancrilis;21090950][SPOILER=Prequel Book]
Can't remember which one presumedly OtOotPCs. His interview occured, the only hiccup mentioned was the Blood Oath.

This was the foundation for my interpretation of Eugene's LG status. The Deva may give Eugene a hard time for hijacking Shojo's summoning, but they definitely imply he's already been judged and is suspended full entry barring the Blood Oath.

If any of his behaviors during his lifetime voided his entry, he would already know, based on OOTS #487.

No doubt Eugene's a turd, but L and G don't necessarily mean friendly and nice. Regarding his eventual comeuppance (and no doubt The Giant has something juicy planned for Eugene), I think it would be more entertaining and more fitting for the story if he enters the Celestial Realm and finds out his kids don't want to hang out with him, his wife stays young for eternity and is with a much more heroic lover, and even his old friends aren't as interested in hanging out with him because he's been suspended for so long.

Going to hell is bad, but getting to heaven and not even getting to enjoy it? That's somehow worse.

[Ruck]

This was the foundation for my interpretation of Eugene's LG status. The Deva may give Eugene a hard time for hijacking Shojo's summoning, but they definitely imply he's already been judged and is suspended full entry barring the Blood Oath.

If any of his behaviors during his lifetime voided his entry, he would already know, based on OOTS #487.

I mentioned it in the #1067 thread just now, but I think it is possible for an evaluation to stop immediately if something that overrides everything else comes up, based on how the Deva talks about Roy's decision to abandon Elan ("If you hadn't gone back, then whether you lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin right now").

Regarding his eventual comeuppance (and no doubt The Giant has something juicy planned for Eugene), I think it would be more entertaining and more fitting for the story if he enters the Celestial Realm and finds out his kids don't want to hang out with him, his wife stays young for eternity and is with a much more heroic lover, and even his old friends aren't as interested in hanging out with him because he's been suspended for so long.

Going to hell is bad, but getting to heaven and not even getting to enjoy it? That's somehow worse.

He's already made a deal with Roy to never see his family again (#500). If he does get into Celestia, think it would be a funny comeuppance if he tries to do just that, and a Deva or his Archon stops him and says "What about the deal you made with Roy? This is a Lawful afterlife; we strictly enforce those things."

And then Eugene finds his bliss in the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right, which is where he has really wanted to be all along.