OOTS #1049 - The Discussion Thread

[Onyavar]

FALLING ROCS

Everyone can see that the depicted Roc is a baby. So there is a preservation area ahead, with nests ahead. Rocs behave like eagles: the oldest/strongest hatchling shoves its younger/weaker siblings out of the nest. Ergo: Falling Rocs.

The Airship Transportation Commission got sued when a roc fell and crashed into a merchant dirigible. The sign's part of the settlement agreement, and has nothing to do with how (in)frequently rocs actually fall.

Almost right, but it was the Dwarven NGO, Greenpierce, that got sued. They are militant in stopping adventuring parties from harming rocs, which in this case included the merchant's hired party when they tried to raid the nests. Rocs were hurt, Rocks were hurled, Rocs were hurled, then everything ended up in court and we all see the results here.

[tsj]

@roy and elan: the wizard did it. .. end of discussion

[tsj]

I wonder if this is foreshadowing, and the fact the Mechane works by (mostly) non-magical means is about to become important, or just a little bit of lore-building.

Well if they encounter a non magic field they still fall since the ships hull will return to its actual non magical weight

[factotum]

Well if they encounter a non magic field they still fall since the ships hull will return to its actual non magical weight

Surely then they'd fall out of the anti-magic field and thus be able to continue as normal? I don't think it would be possible to create an AM field that went all the way from the ground to thousands of feet in the air...

[Cavenskull]

Great comic, but that's a really weird way to spell 'Cliff Racers'.

[War-Wren]

Such a great strip. Roc pun, call-out to the old days when Rich didn't imagine where these stick figures would take us, 4th wall breaking, and science taking a beating from art! What's not to love?

Agreed, love the simple, 4th wall breaking, humour that harks back to when the strips were only in double digits. Much like this one, which is in a similar vein of 'I don't get it'... Brilliant stuff

[danielxcutter]

Surely then they'd fall out of the anti-magic field and thus be able to continue as normal? I don't think it would be possible to create an AM field that went all the way from the ground to thousands of feet in the air...

Ah, but that's not the only way an AMF could be used... it could be used so the Mechane wouldn't be able to take off...

[Puschkin]

OOTS:
The only comic where you don't mind filler updates.

In fact I am happy about any filler update that has good jokes like this because every strip that advances the plot will move the end of all of this a bit nearer to us ...

[Raimun]

... I think that's still a magical airship.

While it doesn't directly fly via magic, it's still aided a lot by magic. As I've understood it, just magically making hulls of aerial vehicles both lighter and stronger would be huge in aeronautics, since this is exactly one of the prominent design problems within that field. Not to mention the conjuring of helium, which I imagine have to be replaced/refilled periodically. I'd like to have the ability to do both of these and their respective patents. I'd be know as the aeronautic wizard.

I wonder if Roy would also claim that his sword is technically a non-magical weapon, since he is still himself providing all the force required to cut people and monsters... you know, aided by his Belt of Giant Strength.

[Kantaki]

... I think that's still a magical airship.

While it doesn't directly fly via magic, it's still aided a lot by magic. As I've understood it, just magically making hulls of aerial vehicles both lighter and stronger would be huge in aeronautics, since this is exactly one of the prominent design problems within that field. Not to mention the conjuring of helium, which I imagine have to be replaced/refilled periodically. I'd like to have the ability to do both of these and their respective patents. I'd be know as the aeronautic wizard.

I wonder if Roy would also claim that his sword is technically a non-magical weapon, since he is still himself providing all the force required to cut people and monsters... you know, aided by his Belt of Giant Strength.

Sure, the airship is magical, but the distinction Roy makes, is that it doesn't use this magic to fly, merely to support it's ability to do so.
The same is true for Roy himself. Yes the belt makes him stronger, yes his sword is sharper and faster than the mundane version (plus some additional tricks*), but that doesn't mean Roy uses magic to fight, he still uses his physical abilities (and smarts) to do so. The belt and the sword simply enhance said abilities.
In the ship’s case the magic allows its hull to be made from heavier materials than a completely mundane version and takes care of the refueling of the balloon.
But the flight itself happens by mundane physics and mechanical means for the propulsion.
A magical airship would achieve flight (and propulsion I guess) by purely magical means like flight spells or bound elementals.

*On the other hand the whole ancestral weapon stuff depends on Roy wielding the sword, so it is still not the same as using a wand)

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe thats why he gets the happy ending...

That's more Haley's doing ...

[Jay R]

I can't help but be suspicious about why it's so important now for Elan and the readers to understand how airships work...

It's not important for Elan to know, just the readers. Elan's job was to smoothly work the exposition into the dialog.

... I think that's still a magical airship.

While it doesn't directly fly via magic, it's still aided a lot by magic.

There's no point arguing over what the single, exact, unambiguous meaning of the phrase "magical airship" is. It's simply not true that "magical airship" is a well-defined term with a single, exact, unambiguous meaning.

Most words and short phrases in English can have more than one meaning. The Oxford English Dictionary has over thirty definitions and sub-definitions for the word "the".

Similarly, you could use the term "magical airship" either way - to mean an airship that has some parts with magical properties, or as something that uses magic specifically to be an airship. That being the case, Rich defined it in the way that allowed him to provide the necessary exposition most effectively.

Note that the way Roy phrases it makes clear which definition he means. "The hull is enchanted ... and they do conjure fresh helium .. but the basic lift is provided by non-magical physics."

Even if you prefer another definition, an author will usually use the interpretation that best serves the story.

[Daibhid C]

As a Discworld fan, I love getting some science and technology in my fantasy worlds. Especially with the implication that it might be more complex, but it's probably more reliable.

One minor nitpick: Roy explains what's holding the ship up, but not what's turning the propellers. Magic? Clockwork? The famed Giant Space Hamsters? I mean, without them, you're basically drifting.

[littlebum2002]

... I think that's still a magical airship.

While it doesn't directly fly via magic, it's still aided a lot by magic. As I've understood it, just magically making hulls of aerial vehicles both lighter and stronger would be huge in aeronautics, since this is exactly one of the prominent design problems within that field. Not to mention the conjuring of helium, which I imagine have to be replaced/refilled periodically. I'd like to have the ability to do both of these and their respective patents. I'd be know as the aeronautic wizard.

I wonder if Roy would also claim that his sword is technically a non-magical weapon, since he is still himself providing all the force required to cut people and monsters... you know, aided by his Belt of Giant Strength.

The lightening and reinforcing part I can be on board with. But where the helium comes from is irrelevant.

There are two main places we get Helium on earth: in mineral deposits and in natural gas. But yet no one looks at a Goodyear blimp and thinks "I wonder if that's a mineral deposit blimp or a natural gas blimp", because it doesn't matter: helium is helium.

Once they create the helium using magic, it's not magical helium anymore. It's just cheaper for them to conjure it than to drill into the ground to get it (assuming this world has underground gas and/or mineral deposits). So that alone does not make it a magical airship of any kind.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(assuming this world has underground gas).

Unless the gods added them on purpose, it wouldn't have. OotS 2.0 has not been around long enough to build up any significant amount of helium due to the radioactive decay of uranium and thorium. Mineral deposits they probably did add, though.

---

I'd say that calling the blimp magical because magic was involved in its construction is like calling an electric car "oil based" because some of the interior is made of plastic. Sure, technically correct, but all it does is reduce information content: there is a clear divide between electric cars and gasoline cars, and calling both oil-based is unhelpful, when one only needs oil in the manufacturing while the other needs it to run. Here, the blimp is not powered by magic; magic was just involved in its construction. I suppose you can split hairs if you want, but if you do, you should provide an alternative way of distinguishing between this kind of airship, and the ones that require constant levitation & propelling spells.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

As a Discworld fan, I love getting some science and technology in my fantasy worlds. Especially with the implication that it might be more complex, but it's probably more reliable.

One minor nitpick: Roy explains what's holding the ship up, but not what's turning the propellers. Magic? Clockwork? The famed Giant Space Hamsters? I mean, without them, you're basically drifting.

He probably would have gotten to what's turning the propellers, had he had more panels and a more cooperative audience than Elan.

[toapat]

I wonder if the helium is made up of many tiny Helium elementals?

I imagine that the Helium Elemental ends up being the size of a single Warhammer figurine

[Quibblicious]

I imagine that the Helium Elemental ends up being the size of a single Warhammer figurine

And it drifts off into space after a short and ineffective attack...

[Killer Angel]

Art is beauty, and beauty is truth!

[Kantaki]

And it drifts off into space after a short and ineffective attack...

That's why you combine two of them with a oxigen elemental. And some source of fire I guess.

[Doug Lampert]

Hey, I'm early

Anyways, I'm surprised that in a world that is around 8th century AD (I'm guessing) that physics and chemistry are known subjects. If I'm right in my assumptions, shouldn't there be more airships? Is there an OotS Isaac Newton? Or am I just making wrong assumptions?

All versions of D&D have plate armor and third edition has telescopes, that puts the tech at 1609 or later.

People have been using Cartesian mapping in D&D since the start, 2d Cartesian mapping comes from 1637.

It's already been established that there are Chemistry classes in the OotS universe.


PS Don't try to find an equivalent to any time period in our universe. It just doesn't work.

This.

D&D is mostly High Renaissance technology, except where it isn't (like the lack of guns in many settings). But they also use stuff that would have been obsolete 500 years earlier (see the armor list). For that matter the available surface ships span an even longer time IIRC.

It's a mismash, it grew out of a historical miniatures rule-set that was supposed to be able to handle almost any period before guns became completely dominant (IIRC chainmail had rules for cannon), and also to be able to handle wizards and dragons and heroes (chainmail had rules for those too), all in a single fairly short little booklet.

This was expanded into a game consisting of three fairly short little booklets, and then people started adding stuff.

There's also lots of stuff in the game that simply has no historical precedent and pretty well none in non-D&D fantasy that was added because someone thought it was cool, or someone didn't understand the actual terminology and history (there's no such thing as a short-bow, the spiked chain is absurd, there are dinosaurs in the monster manual because people had dinosaur models sitting around and wanted to use them in the game).

[Peelee]

That's why you combine two of them with a oxigen elemental. And some source of fire I guess.

That would be quite a feat, since Helium doesn't bind easily.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That would be quite a feat, since Helium doesn't bind easily.

Ah, but in every Helium there are two Hidrogens waiting to come out. Sure, the energy cost is prohibitive, but that's what magic is for.

GW

[DaggerPen]

That's why you combine two of them with a oxigen elemental. And some source of fire I guess.

Are you mixing up helium and hydrogen, by chance?

All versions of D&D have plate armor and third edition has telescopes, that puts the tech at 1609 or later.

People have been using Cartesian mapping in D&D since the start, 2d Cartesian mapping comes from 1637.



This.

D&D is mostly High Renaissance technology, except where it isn't (like the lack of guns in many settings). But they also use stuff that would have been obsolete 500 years earlier (see the armor list). For that matter the available surface ships span an even longer time IIRC.

It's a mismash, it grew out of a historical miniatures rule-set that was supposed to be able to handle almost any period before guns became completely dominant (IIRC chainmail had rules for cannon), and also to be able to handle wizards and dragons and heroes (chainmail had rules for those too), all in a single fairly short little booklet.

This was expanded into a game consisting of three fairly short little booklets, and then people started adding stuff.

There's also lots of stuff in the game that simply has no historical precedent and pretty well none in non-D&D fantasy that was added because someone thought it was cool, or someone didn't understand the actual terminology and history (there's no such thing as a short-bow, the spiked chain is absurd, there are dinosaurs in the monster manual because people had dinosaur models sitting around and wanted to use them in the game).

Wait - no such thing as a shortbow? But there's definitely a longbow and bows that are shorter and aren't recurves - what are those?

[Kantaki]

That would be quite a feat, since Helium doesn't bind easily.

Bad phrasing maybe. I meant combine as in deploy/summon together. Plus someone who provides fire.

Nevermind, was thinking of hydrogen.
That´s what I get for trying to sound smart in a foreign language.

[Kantaki]

That would be quite a feat, since Helium doesn't bind easily.

Bad phrasing maybe. I meant combine as in deploy/summon together. Plus someone who provides fire.

Nevermind, I’m confusing Hydrogen and Helium.
That's what I get for acting smart in a foreign language.

[Raimun]

But the flight itself happens by mundane physics and mechanical means for the propulsion.
A magical airship would achieve flight (and propulsion I guess) by purely magical means like flight spells or bound elementals.

See, I think the airship is magical because it looks like the ship wouldn't be able to funtion at the capacity it does in the story if it wasn't magical. After all, Mechane is a legendary airship and apparently a cut above from regular airships. And how did Mechance achieve this level of capability? Magic. Mechane is able to surpass the potential of mundane airships because its hull is magically enchanted to be lighter and thus superior to normal airship hulls. That's magic right there. Now, I'm not an airship (or aviation) expert but even I know that that should be a marked improvement.

And that's just the hull. Mechane is also able to provide its own helium. Mid-air. Or after a desperate landing in a remote island where there would otherwise be none. Now, that's not all that is required to run an airship but it's still significant since there's no need to buy the helium from a vendor. A similar upgrade would be to use the same principle to provide the fuel for the airship, whatever that is.

Anyway, now that I think about it, I would say that it would be even more accurate to call Mechane a magitech airship. It couldn't be able to funtion at the level and capabilities it does without magic and technology. This means, among other things, that it wouldn't crash down in extremely huge Anti-Magic Field because it doesn't achieve its flight via magic (technology) and that it's cut above mundane airships because of its extraordinarily light hull that the current level of technology couldn't replicate (magic).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wait - no such thing as a shortbow? But there's definitely a longbow and bows that are shorter and aren't recurves - what are those?

Bows.

The phrase 'no short bows' is a linguistic quibble, since you don't need to say bows are short when they're the standard size others are based on. Technically, it would've been better to label them horse bows, since their primary use is for mounted archery Parthian style.

Also, long bows require long-term straight-growth hardwoods, which is why they arose in Northern Europe rather than the Mediterranean.

Really, would it have killed them to specify timelines in D&D to give an idea of the progress in weapons and armor?

[DaggerPen]

Bows.

The phrase 'no short bows' is a linguistic quibble, since you don't need to say bows are short when they're the standard size others are based on. Technically, it would've been better to label them horse bows, since their primary use is for mounted archery Parthian style.

Also, long bows require long-term straight-growth hardwoods, which is why they arose in Northern Europe rather than the Mediterranean.

Really, would it have killed them to specify timelines in D&D to give an idea of the progress in weapons and armor?

Oh, I didn't know that! That's pretty cool!

[Jasdoif]

Bows.

The phrase 'no short bows' is a linguistic quibble, since you don't need to say bows are short when they're the standard size others are based on. Technically, it would've been better to label them horse bows, since their primary use is for mounted archery Parthian style.

Also, long bows require long-term straight-growth hardwoods, which is why they arose in Northern Europe rather than the Mediterranean.

I figured there was an exchange like

"Is that a longbow?"
"It's a bow."
"But isn't a longbow a bow?"
"No."
"Oh?"
"Yes. So?"
"Whoa...."

And about the seventeenth time that happened one of the designers got frustrated and decided "OK! Let's call 'bows'--no don't start that rhyming crap again--something to distinguish them from longbows, since apparently this is too confusing for some people....What's the opposite of long? Short! Fine, we're going to call bows shortbows from now on."