PF Wizard 20 VS China Army?

[Eldan]

To the people suggesting a shadopocalypse, remember that incorporeal creatures must remain within 5 feet of open space at all times. This means a reasonably thick wall can still contain them, meaning humanity could hide in underground shelters and such.

Under ground shelters with doors five feet thick and no air vents, that is.

[dj543210]

People! People! You're overthinking this. A wizard doesn't destroy the army. He subjugates them to his will. And if that doesn't work, then he destroys them!

[BWR]

The Fomorian Titan is an 18 HD CE juggernaut with (among other things) CL 20 Wish as a SLA - Gate one of them in, command it to Wish in twenty of its friends, then let the madness commence as the growing horde of murder-giants sweeps the globe.

I think that violates the OP's stipulation about rules abuses.

Well, I don't know what ways there are in PF to cast in dead magic areas, as I said. In 3.5, it would result in a somewhat limited, but by no means powerless wizard (depending on interpretation, dead magic might be a subset of limited magic, so that rings of free casting work, there's invoke magic, etc....)
Maybe there are similar methods in PF. Such a scenario would be more interesting than full-powered wizard 20 against the PRC, because he wins, hands down, anyway.

Ah, so you just went intentionally off topic and I missed it. Sorry, thought either you or I had missed something in the OP.

[Hecuba]

People! People! You're overthinking this.

I don't know about overthinking, but I certainly am choosing the most difficult scenario for the wizard - main-force combat. I'm not doing so because I think it most likely; rather if we can demonstrate that the Wizard wins in the case least favorable to it, then the question is answered fairly definitively.

Ah, so you just went intentionally off topic and I missed it. Sorry, thought either you or I had missed something in the OP.

They do have a point: as he mentioned, there's a fairly good case for assuming that magic shouldn't work normally in our world. But you're right - that changes the question very significantly (though the wizard can probably still get the job done).

[icefractal]

I don't know about overthinking, but I certainly am choosing the most difficult scenario for the wizard - main-force combat. I'm not doing so because I think it most likely; rather if we can demonstrate that the Wizard wins in the case least favorable to it, then the question is answered fairly definitively.

That does sound like an interesting question to answer. If trying to destroy the army personally, I think mind-control would still be the way to go, because why waste Fireballs (and tanks would soak up quite a few), when there are tons of weapons free for the taking? Just find whoever's got the highest firepower, Dominate Person to have them turn it on their allies, and repeat.

But if you don't mind having a possibly world-threatening environmental hazard left over, you could lead off with the Shadow trick; that should take care of most of them.

I think it goes without saying that you'd want to be incorporeal or ethereal while doing this. Invisible is not protection enough, with the giant AoE ranges that grenades and missiles have.

[Inevitability]

I think that violates the OP's stipulation about rules abuses.

How is this 'rules abuse'?

[Grollub]

To the people suggesting a shadopocalypse, remember that incorporeal creatures must remain within 5 feet of open space at all times. This means a reasonably thick wall can still contain them, meaning humanity could hide in underground shelters and such.

So basically you've contained the populace to a 10ft wall thick bunker... even if it was FULLY contained/setup.. you've now doomed whoever is in there to being there forever, while you rule the rest of the planet..

And if they do ever come out (which happens in every movie), boom, shadowpocalyse restarts/gets in.

[Inevitability]

Under ground shelters with doors five feet thick and no air vents, that is.

So basically you've contained the populace to a 10ft wall thick bunker... even if it was FULLY contained/setup.. you've now doomed whoever is in there to being there forever, while you rule the rest of the planet..

And if they do ever come out (which happens in every movie), boom, shadowpocalyse restarts/gets in.

I said it was possible, not that it was viable.

[awa]

you don't really need shadows just wights, they reproduce so fast that in a crowded population center they could get overwhelming numbers to fast for you to do anything about it.
There intelligent ninja zombies

[Âmesang]

I just have one thing to say towards the wizard:

Do not pursue Lü Bu.

Either that or China calls upon Lo Pan and the Three Storms.

[Segev]

I just have one thing to say towards the wizard:

Do not pursue Lü Bu.

Either that or China calls upon Lo Pan and the Three Storms.

Bah. There's no need to pursue Lu Bu. That's what the Invisible Stalker or Ice Assassin is for.

[Inevitability]

you don't really need shadows just wights, they reproduce so fast that in a crowded population center they could get overwhelming numbers to fast for you to do anything about it.
There intelligent ninja zombies

Not sure: wights are basically movie zombies. If there's any fictional apocalypse we're prepared for, it's that one.

A single city may fall, and half a million undead will indeed be problematic, but an apocalypse that can be stopped with a few nukes is no apocalypse at all.

I guess if you somehow wight-infect all population centers of all nuclear powers, you might have a chance, but otherwise modern communications will inform the people with big guns of the wights before they can grow to massive numbers.

[Xar Zarath]

Well, I don't know what ways there are in PF to cast in dead magic areas, as I said. In 3.5, it would result in a somewhat limited, but by no means powerless wizard (depending on interpretation, dead magic might be a subset of limited magic, so that rings of free casting work, there's invoke magic, etc....)
Maybe there are similar methods in PF. Such a scenario would be more interesting than full-powered wizard 20 against the PRC, because he wins, hands down, anyway.

Technically I would consider Earth and the universe its in to have magic. And as for the scenario in this thread, then yes Earth operates normally regarding to magic similar to Golarion in PF for all intents and purposes.

And I will say that although it is not impossible for China's scientists and army RND to figure out magic and specifically wizardry, I would say it would take them a long time as we here on Earth do not know the first thing about wizardry. Think of it as trying to explain an IPhone to someone from the stone age. The mechanical engine to a wooden wheel and all that comparisons.

[awa]

Not sure: wights are basically movie zombies. If there's any fictional apocalypse we're prepared for, it's that one.

A single city may fall, and half a million undead will indeed be problematic, but an apocalypse that can be stopped with a few nukes is no apocalypse at all.

I guess if you somehow wight-infect all population centers of all nuclear powers, you might have a chance, but otherwise modern communications will inform the people with big guns of the wights before they can grow to massive numbers.

you forget Wight's are intelligent and have a +16 modifier to stealth, a 15 charisma and a good intimidate score.

The wights are smart enough to spread out rapidly even if the wizard is to lazy to seed them himself. As they are undead they can travel underwater easily allowing them to reach multiple cities undetected and they can intimidate people into giving them rides in cars or just get on trains or busses wearing a surgical mask and hooded sweater, then once they get to new locations one Wight sneaks about killing people at night in an ever growing horde some of whom go off to visit new locations, and with there stealth and intellect they can choose to start out only attacking people on their own so with no bodies they can get a large force before people even know there's a problem much less one justifying nuclear weapons. Sure you can nuke a city but does that actually help you? Now you have to deal with radioactive fall out which does not harm the undead and remember our goal is not the world jut the Chinese army if they have to wipe most of their own cities off the map we still win.

All our plans for fighting zombies assume were smarter then they are but these guys have above average mental stats, they can use phones and spread disinformation, they can trick people into thinking they can be reasoned with, they can kidnap peoples families and intimidate (+9 modifier) them into acting against mankind hiding their true nature and goals, They can use stolen keys and id cards to gain stealthy access to buildings. They can read manuals, these are zombies that if you don't stop them soon enough might be launching nukes at you! And if the wights can launch one nuke at the usa or Russia that's a win for the wizard because our goal is destroying china not making undead.

[Quertus]

War Spell, Favor of the Martyr, Superior Invis, Mind Rape. So much great Pathfinder content...

It's tagged with Patfinder, says PF in the title and main post. How do people mess this up so bad?

Do Pathfinder wizards not have the option to invent new spells via spell research? Or are all PF wizards too dumb to research such useful spells?

So basically you've contained the populace to a 10ft wall thick bunker... even if it was FULLY contained/setup.. you've now doomed whoever is in there to being there forever, while you rule the rest of the planet..

And if they do ever come out (which happens in every movie), boom, shadowpocalyse restarts/gets in.

I'm not familiar with pf rules, but if they have to stay within 5' of open area, wouldn't the walls need to be 15' thick? Otherwise, the first 5' is within 5' of the outside, and the second 5' is within 5' of the inside. Or is that not how it works?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Wights are the Special Forces of undead, really.

...I was going to bed, but after that thought, a cup of coffee and some video games sounds like a better alternative. Thanks a lot, brain.

[Liquor Box]

And I will say that although it is not impossible for China's scientists and army RND to figure out magic and specifically wizardry, I would say it would take them a long time as we here on Earth do not know the first thing about wizardry. Think of it as trying to explain an IPhone to someone from the stone age. The mechanical engine to a wooden wheel and all that comparisons.

I don't even think it has to be magic. If the concepts of DnD existed in the real world (such as multiple planes) there is every chance that humanity would have found a technological way to exploit them.

After all, people are assuming that the wizard would be able to know about things that don't exist in a DnD world (like nuclear weapons, at least sufficient to commandeer them).

It's an impossible question to answer because of the lack of compatability between real world science and DnD magic.

[ryu]

I don't even think it has to be magic. If the concepts of DnD existed in the real world (such as multiple planes) there is every chance that humanity would have found a technological way to exploit them.

After all, people are assuming that the wizard would be able to know about things that don't exist in a DnD world (like nuclear weapons, at least sufficient to commandeer them).

It's an impossible question to answer because of the lack of compatability between real world science and DnD magic.

The wizard has divinations. Do we have divinations? That's what I thought.

[Liquor Box]

The wizard has divinations. Do we have divinations? That's what I thought.

How would divinations help him? If nuclear weapons existed in his universe, presumably he could learn about them from a book. Likewise if plane shifting existed in our universe presumable we could learn about it from a book, and quite possible develop a solution to it.

[awa]

How would divinations help him? If nuclear weapons existed in his universe, presumably he could learn about them from a book. Likewise if plane shifting existed in our universe presumable we could learn about it from a book, and quite possible develop a solution to it.

I don't think that's a fair comparison the wizard only needs to know nukes exist which is common knowledge on our world. While for china to do something with it they would need to figure out how it works something very few people in the wizards world can do. divination can also find out about stuff in other universe.

[ryu]

How would divinations help him? If nuclear weapons existed in his universe, presumably he could learn about them from a book. Likewise if plane shifting existed in our universe presumable we could learn about it from a book, and quite possible develop a solution to it.

The thing about books? They require someone who has already gained the information from something that isn't a non-existent book to write it down. For this reason, while they're rather astoundingly useful at preserving information, they're rather useless for discovering information the civilization itself doesn't have.

[Liquor Box]

The thing about books? They require someone who has already gained the information from something that isn't a non-existent book to write it down. For this reason, while they're rather astoundingly useful at preserving information, they're rather useless for discovering information the civilization itself doesn't have.

Thats not true. They are great for discovering information the civilisation does not have, so long as those books can be obtained from another civilisation.

If the scenario is that we are creating an intersection between the modern world and the DnD world, then it is reasonable to assume the wizard has knowledge of nuclear weapons (and all the other modern world things) and that the Chinese have knowledge of different planes (and other things inherent to DnD).

I suppose a different scenario might be proposed - where the Chinese discover a way to transfer their army to a DnD setting or vice versa.

[ryu]

Thats not true. They are great for discovering information the civilisation does not have, so long as those books can be obtained from another civilisation.

If the scenario is that we are creating an intersection between the modern world and the DnD world, then it is reasonable to assume the wizard has knowledge of nuclear weapons (and all the other modern world things) and that the Chinese have knowledge of different planes (and other things inherent to DnD).

I suppose a different scenario might be proposed - where the Chinese discover a way to transfer their army to a DnD setting or vice versa.

Intersection of worlds? What intersection of worlds? The wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. Then he made a nice safe, undetectable haven and started divining. Books never enter the equation.

[Liquor Box]

I don't think that's a fair comparison the wizard only needs to know nukes exist which is common knowledge on our world. While for china to do something with it they would need to figure out how it works something very few people in the wizards world can do. divination can also find out about stuff in other universe.

I was assuming the existence of things (like nukes or planes etc) that are usually particular to the real world or DnD would actually be common knowledge to both. It is true that in this case the Chinese would have to take the extra step of figuring out a technological way of manipulating planes (or whatever), but in such circumstances I don't think it is unreasonable to think they may do so. Much like I don't think it unreasonable that wizards would have researched spells that could resist damage types that don't exist in DnD (like radiation).

Even if that were not the scenario I don't think it that different. Like the existence of nukes in our world, the existence of other planes is pretty common knowledge in DnD (at least I always considered it so). The knowledge of how to manipulate the planes (planeshift) is limited in DnD, but so is knowledge of how to activate and fire nukes in the real world.

[AvatarVecna]

I suppose a different scenario might be proposed - where the Chinese discover a way to transfer their army to a DnD setting or vice versa.

Like, think with portals type science? Or via a Gate spell? Because if we're assuming the Chinese government figured out magic, this fight gets a lot different: namely, it becomes "can a small army of wizards of varying level who have no cultural experience with high-tier combat defeat a Wizard 20 who is familiar with high-tier tactics due to having lived in a world with magic their entire life?", and the answer to that question is largely dependent on how much TO is acceptable and how much is going too far. The reason the original scenario is useful for discussion is because it's taking two vaguely-understood forces (the Chinese army, as it exists in our world, and a Wizard 20). Giving the Chinese army magic introduces a variable of "how would China react to the existence of magic, and what tactics/builds would they make use of upon discovering it?"

Alternatively, the scientific portal idea basically ends with an army of real-world people (so, level 6 at the highest, generally) assaulting the established fortress of a Wizard 20 (let's assume it's even on the wizard's private demiplane, and science accomplished what magic couldn't and got a portal there). What happens from here is largely dependent on what kind of technology the Chinese army can bring to bear without risk to their own troops (they could nuke the wizard's fortress, but they would probably prefer to nuke it when they don't have an army assaulting it), how those weapons translate into PF mechanics (what kind of damage does a nuke deal, what's the AoE, how might it affect/be affected by other mechanics, etc), and what defenses the Wizard has on his permanent stronghold. That could certainly be an interesting question, with the only really uncertain part being whether the mechanics ascribed to their weaponry are fair within the system. My general assumption would be that a Wizard's fortress would be able to endure quite a lengthy siege by an army of lvl 6 or lower characters, but if they have portal technology, maybe there's other stuff that it's reasonable for them to have?

[Liquor Box]

Intersection of worlds? What intersection of worlds? The wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. Then he made a nice safe, undetectable haven and started divining. Books never enter the equation.

Or, the wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. But he shifted to a world where magic doesn't exist. He got beaten up because he looked silly in his pointy hat and robes.

Pretty easy really.

[AvatarVecna]

Or, the wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. But he shifted to a world where magic doesn't exist. He got beaten up because he looked silly in his pointy hat and robes.

Pretty easy really.

Without checking the actual rules on the matter (so I could be entirely wrong on this), I'm pretty sure you can't travel to a dead magic zone with magic any mroe than you could travel out of a dead magic zone with magic. I assume both ends need to be areas magic can take place in if you're wanting to magically travel between them. In any case, "Wizard travels to dead magic world, auto-loses because he doesn't have magic anymore", the question is pretty pointless.

[ryu]

I was assuming the existence of things (like nukes or planes etc) that are usually particular to the real world or DnD would actually be common knowledge to both. It is true that in this case the Chinese would have to take the extra step of figuring out a technological way of manipulating planes (or whatever), but in such circumstances I don't think it is unreasonable to think they may do so. Much like I don't think it unreasonable that wizards would have researched spells that could resist damage types that don't exist in DnD (like radiation).

Even if that were not the scenario I don't think it that different. Like the existence of nukes in our world, the existence of other planes is pretty common knowledge in DnD (at least I always considered it so). The knowledge of how to manipulate the planes (planeshift) is limited in DnD, but so is knowledge of how to activate and fire nukes in the real world.

The problem with that scenario is that we're bound by little things called physical laws. The wizard is bound by the rules of magic. Even in PF where the rules of magic are a bit less fast and loose, said rules are still a lot more free than physical laws. Besides we weren't presented weird, magitek hybrid wizard 20, versus weird magitek hybrid chinese military. We were presented wizard 20 versus chinese military. One of these things has a method of learning about the other built into what it is. The other doesn't.

[Liquor Box]

Without checking the actual rules on the matter (so I could be entirely wrong on this), I'm pretty sure you can't travel to a dead magic zone with magic any mroe than you could travel out of a dead magic zone with magic. I assume both ends need to be areas magic can take place in if you're wanting to magically travel between them. In any case, "Wizard travels to dead magic world, auto-loses because he doesn't have magic anymore", the question is pretty pointless.

Right, so you do need some sort of intersection between the DnD world (where magic exists) and the real world (where it ordinarily does not) for this confrontation to happen. Unless the Chinese discover a technological way to travel to the DnD world.

[ryu]

Right, so you do need some sort of intersection between the DnD world (where magic exists) and the real world (where it ordinarily does not) for this confrontation to happen. Unless the Chinese discover a technological way to travel to the DnD world.

And how, on earth, would you ever be able to state that with certainty? Proving negatives is impossible.