PF Wizard 20 VS China Army?

[Belzyk]

*Citation needed.

Give me the definition of science and the definition of magic. There's your citation. Science is learning about the laws of the universe and how it works. Also nearing how to bend and manipulate it. Magic is understanding the laws of the universe and how to manipulate and bend it also. Ergo they are one and the same. What is magic to one person is seen as science to another.

Also here is your citation

http://physics.about.com/od/physics101thebasics/f/ClarkesLaws.htm

[awa]

I'm just gonna say this once. Science is magic so someone with enough since could learn to beat a wizard.

yheah but the Chinese don't have enough, I bet Starfleet (star trek) being smart about their technology could give a wizard a run for his money. They have enough weird inconsistent technology that finding something that could hurt a wizard is quite possible. But that still does not help the Chinese who have only real world technology.

[Belzyk]

yheah but the Chinese don't have enough, I bet Starfleet (star trek) being smart about their technology could give a wizard a run for his money. They have enough weird inconsistent technology that finding something that could hurt a wizard is quite possible. But that still does not help the Chinese who have only real world technology.

Humans could hit a incopreal wizard just by using electricity or a electric current. Also radiation could be seen as negative energy. A incorpreal being still consists of something. Ergo Radiation would give it the middle finger and damage it. Same goes for etherealness. There are many real world things that are the exact same thing as magic and fantasy.

Also gating in creatures that can be slain by swords and arrows and mace and all that would be very very vulnerable to extremely fast moving bullets. Only thing that wouldn't would be things that are able to regenerate body parts. Or effectively immortal.

[AvatarVecna]

Humans could hit a incopreal wizard just by using electricity or a electric current.

I see nothing in either the Incorporeal Subtype or the Incorporeal Special Quality that says electricity bypasses. I mean, I agree that Worm is an awesome story, to be sure, but Wildbow's WoG is not RAW for Pathfinder.

[awa]

Humans could hit a incopreal wizard just by using electricity or a electric current. Also radiation could be seen as negative energy. A incorpreal being still consists of something. Ergo Radiation would give it the middle finger and damage it. Same goes for etherealness. There are many real world things that are the exact same thing as magic and fantasy

wrong on all accounts those thing exist in pathfinder and don't work
in pathfinder radiation is treated as a poison which is trivial for a wizard to protect himself from
only magic electricity hurts incorporeal creatures

[Belzyk]

I see nothing in either the Incorporeal Subtype or the Incorporeal Special Quality that says electricity bypasses. I mean, I agree that Worm is an awesome story, to be sure, but Wildbow's WoG is not RAW for Pathfinder.

Could a wizard hit a incorpreal being with lightning magic? If so humans could do the same with electricity considering it's the same thing

[Belzyk]

wrong on all accounts those thing exist in pathfinder and don't work
in pathfinder radiation is treated as a poison which is trivial for a wizard to protect himself from
only magic electricity hurts incorporeal creatures

Ok but the wizard is here in our world using his magic. So radiation is still going to rip his atoms to pieces. You use fantasy logic to try and back things. But if your using fantasy logic you have to also use real world logic.

[awa]

its really not because non-magic lightning exists in pathfinder and does not work

[Segev]

Are incorporeal creatures taking half damage from "magical energy damage," or do they take half damage from "energy damage," regardless of whether it's magical or not?

Can an incorporeal creature stand in a campfire without getting hurt? I know a fireball deals half damage. I don't know if environmental fire deals half damage or no damage.

[awa]

Ok but the wizard is here in our world using his magic. So radiation is still going to rip his atoms to pieces. You use fantasy logic to try and back things. But if your using fantasy logic you have to also use real world logic.

no because he's immune to it and can heal the damage done to himself

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Give me the definition of science and the definition of magic. There's your citation. Science is learning about the laws of the universe and how it works. Also nearing how to bend and manipulate it. Magic is understanding the laws of the universe and how to manipulate and bend it also. Ergo they are one and the same. What is magic to one person is seen as science to another.

sci·ence
sīəns/Submit
noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

mag·ic
ˈmajik/Submit
noun
1.
the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Those actually look like two opposite things.

In fact, they are complete, total, anathemic opposites of each other. One is seeking to understand reality, while the other seeks to reach outside of reality by appealing to "mysterious or supernatural forces."

Also here is your citation

http://physics.about.com/od/physics1...larkesLaws.htm

What's the PF/3.5/3.0 rulebook and page for that, exactly?

[Belzyk]

no because he's immune to it and can heal the damage done to himself

USE BOTH LOGIC instead of one. You cannot answer the original question with accuracy unless you use both because it is using beings from 2 different realities. I'm sorry but it is safe to say that no matter what reality it is physics still works

[Segev]

You can apply the scientific process to magic. The trouble the real world military will face is the question of how the devil the wizard "does magic."

It clearly is more than just the gestures and words and materials. Memorization/preparation is required. As is some sort of inherent power. What that power is...is unclear. If they could get a wizard to cooperate with the study, science could absolutely be applied to answer questions that the RAW of PF don't give. And even without willing cooperation, if they can get him to fireball something they can get an idea of what "20d6 of damage" looks like in terms of actual structural harm. They can also examine anybody known to be mind-whammied to try to figure out what factors go into a Will save, or how the whammy really changes one's perceptions/thoughts.

But whether they can train their own wizards or not is an unknown. Probably best to assume "no," or we again stop asking the question of "real-world military vs. PF level 20 wizard" and are instead asking "fantasy military that's just now learning magic vs. PF level 20 wizard."

[AvatarVecna]

Could a wizard hit a incorpreal being with lightning magic? If so humans could do the same with electricity considering it's the same thing

A lightning strike that results from natural weather in Pathfinder would leave an incorporeal target completely unaffected, because it's not magic. A wizard's Lightning Bolt spell could absolutely hurt an incorporeal target, because it has magic flowing through it. I see no magic inherent in a taser, so unless you've got a PF citation that tasers are magic, it doesn't work.

[Segev]

A lightning strike that results from natural weather in Pathfinder would leave an incorporeal target completely unaffected, because it's not magic. A wizard's Lightning Bolt spell could absolutely hurt an incorporeal target, because it has magic flowing through it. I see no magic inherent in a taser, so unless you've got a PF citation that tasers are magic, it doesn't work.

Okay, so PF rules are that it has to be a magical effect creating the energy for it to harm an incorporeal being?

[AvatarVecna]

Okay, so PF rules are that it has to be a magical effect creating the energy for it to harm an incorporeal being?

Here is the exact quote from the Incorporeal Special Quality:

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

Bolded for emphasis.

[Segev]

In that case, incorporeality does, indeed, seem to be invincibility vs. anything physical the real-world military can do!

[Hecuba]

Could a wizard hit a incorpreal being with lightning magic? If so humans could do the same with electricity considering it's the same thing

Why would that follow for lightning but not for fire? After all, non-magical fire explicitly does not work against incorporeal beings despite the fact that magical fire does.

[AvatarVecna]

In that case, incorporeality does, indeed, seem to be invincibility vs. anything physical the real-world military can do!

A couple points of contention: if the IRL army is allowed to access magic (even if they have to take time to develop it), they could potentially hurt the wizard while the wizard is incorporeal (although they only deal half damage and they have a 50% chance of missing entirely unless they've got some Ghost Touch weapons). Second important point: if the Wizard's method of becoming incorporeal is to take an undead form (such as via Undead Anatomy IV), holy water could harm incorporeal undead (at least, PF holy water; whether IRL holy water should be considered equivalent is another matter entirely).

[Segev]

I'd be willing to posit that real-world holy water is holy water for purposes of harming undead. I'm less willing to posit that the real-world military learns PF magic, again on the basis that that stops being "real-world military vs. PF wizard" and starts to become "PF wizards backed by real-world military vs. PF wizard."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd be willing to posit that real-world holy water is holy water for purposes of harming undead. I'm less willing to posit that the real-world military learns PF magic, again on the basis that that stops being "real-world military vs. PF wizard" and starts to become "PF wizards backed by real-world military vs. PF wizard."

I think you just mean, "PF wizards backed by real-world military," don't you? I mean, the wizard could almost certainly have everything in hand within the first week, most of which is spent using divinations.

[Segev]

I think you just mean, "PF wizards backed by real-world military," don't you? I mean, the wizard could almost certainly have everything in hand within the first week, most of which is spent using divinations.

Then that first week would constitute the conflict we're examining.

[dascarletm]

It's usually important to distinguish if:

1. We are replicating the aforementioned real world army in Pathfinder and putting it up against a PF wizard

-or-

2. We are imagining someone with the powers and abilities of a PF wizard in the real world fighting said army.

[Segev]

It's usually important to distinguish if:

1. We are replicating the aforementioned real world army in Pathfinder and putting it up against a PF wizard

-or-

2. We are imagining someone with the powers and abilities of a PF wizard in the real world fighting said army.

Good point. My usual assumption is case 2, but I can see how case 1 might be a thing.

My biggest argument against case 1 is that I'm not sure how a real-world army would come to be in PF while remaining recognizably that real-world army (and not a fantasy version of it with wizards and clerics and the like as part of its composition).

[AvatarVecna]

Good point. My usual assumption is case 2, but I can see how case 1 might be a thing.

My biggest argument against case 1 is that I'm not sure how a real-world army would come to be in PF while remaining recognizably that real-world army (and not a fantasy version of it with wizards and clerics and the like as part of its composition).

I think what they meant was "are we using IRL rules to simulate the PF Wizard 20's abilities, or are we using PF rules to simulate the IRL army's abilities", and I tend towards using the PF rules set to simulate everybody...and earlier in this thread, I brought up the point that Pathfinder has existing rules for firearms (modern-ish ones, even), and that there's a Pathfinder Module "Rasputin Must Die!" where PF characters are put up against the PF equivalent of an IRL army (albeit a 1900s-ish army). I think PF has the tools necessary to simulate the capabilities of an IRL army, and I think simulating them in such a fashion would be the best way to judge this contest fairly.

[dascarletm]

I think what they meant was "are we using IRL rules to simulate the PF Wizard 20's abilities, or are we using PF rules to simulate the IRL army's abilities", and I tend towards using the PF rules set to simulate everybody...and earlier in this thread, I brought up the point that Pathfinder has existing rules for firearms (modern-ish ones, even), and that there's a Pathfinder Module "Rasputin Must Die!" where PF characters are put up against the PF equivalent of an IRL army (albeit a 1900s-ish army). I think PF has the tools necessary to simulate the capabilities of an IRL army, and I think simulating them in such a fashion would be the best way to judge this contest fairly.

That is what I meant, and I agree with you mostly.

However, I would point out that combat IRL is dirty, gritty, and not particularly enjoyable. Our armies and weapons are designed around that. For an RPG game like Pathfinder you don't want fighting to be those things. You want it to be fun and closer to something cinematic, at least that is how it is designed. It abstracts things for simplification, and fun. This gives the wizard an additional advantage. That's not to say either way is "right." They both have merit IMO.

[awa]

combat might be ugly but the wizard can largely skip it, he has so many ways to render himself either undetectable or untouchable that combat does not really affect him.

[Xar Zarath]

Ok but the wizard is here in our world using his magic. So radiation is still going to rip his atoms to pieces. You use fantasy logic to try and back things. But if your using fantasy logic you have to also use real world logic.

Perhaps, but a properly OP Wizard would have some Radiation Immunity spell researched and properly cast to maintain proper protection at all times. Note I said OP but then again a 20th Wizard with an Int in the mid 30s is beyond our intellectual thinking.

[Quertus]

A lightning strike that results from natural weather in Pathfinder would leave an incorporeal target completely unaffected, because it's not magic. A wizard's Lightning Bolt spell could absolutely hurt an incorporeal target, because it has magic flowing through it. I see no magic inherent in a taser, so unless you've got a PF citation that tasers are magic, it doesn't work.

A real world citation that a taser is magic would also suffice.

Perhaps, but a properly OP Wizard would have some Radiation Immunity spell researched and properly cast to maintain proper protection at all times. Note I said OP but then again a 20th Wizard with an Int in the mid 30s is beyond our intellectual thinking.

As I commented, most of my sample (3.x) wizards would win without difficulty. Only one has a spell specifically to protect from radiation.

I believe a more accurate than the Pathfinder interpretation of radiation would have my lich be slowly dissolved by it... But, obviously, that wouldn't really matter, as they would generate a new body within a few days of their "death".

EDIT: it's gonna bug me if I don't ask - who deals 20d6 damage with a fireball?

[Segev]

I think what they meant was "are we using IRL rules to simulate the PF Wizard 20's abilities, or are we using PF rules to simulate the IRL army's abilities", and I tend towards using the PF rules set to simulate everybody...and earlier in this thread, I brought up the point that Pathfinder has existing rules for firearms (modern-ish ones, even), and that there's a Pathfinder Module "Rasputin Must Die!" where PF characters are put up against the PF equivalent of an IRL army (albeit a 1900s-ish army). I think PF has the tools necessary to simulate the capabilities of an IRL army, and I think simulating them in such a fashion would be the best way to judge this contest fairly.

Oh, that makes a certain amount of sense. It would at least let us gauge the effects of the real-world military's tools against the wizard, determining if they can hit him and how much damage they do. I do still draw the line at claiming "well, um, tech is magic, so tasers and flamethrowers do magical energy damage," simply because it reeks of special pleading. We don't have a difference between electricity generated by a taser or that generated by natural lightning, save in sheer scale of numbers. If natural lightning won't hurt an incorporeal wizard, neither should man-made technological lightning.



Curious question, though: if conjured fire or lightning or acid gets to ignore SR because it's "real" and has merely been summoned, does that mean an incorporeal creature ignores it since it is not magical? The spell just summoned it; the energy in question isn't a spell's result, supposedly (hence ignoring SR).