Vote! What racial (paragon) class would you like to see? Take 2 (Voting has ended)

[Zaydos]

New Tally
Succubus 2. I've got nothin' to add at this moment, the tally updated too quick so I could respond to tier stuff.
Vampire 2. How strong is a natural weapon (i.e. bonus bad attack each round) which deals 1d6 Con damage? I mean the casting ones wouldn't get this for thematic reasons (it's a violent messy melee ability). Oh and definitely resistance (not immunity) to traditional vampire weaknesses (suffers a penalty to hit people holding them off with holy symbols, or for 1 round after entering an area strongly laced with garlic, and as long as they are within a house uninvited, may act freely in sunlight but takes round by round damage).
Pixie 2. Definitely thinking Shadow Conjuration once per day with ECL based use scaling (2 uses at ECL 11, 3 at 15, 4 at 19) or ECL based effect scaling (so eventually its 1/shades) or maybe some combination (so it becomes 2/day Greater Shadow Conjuration).
Dvati 1.
Changeling 1.
Mummy 1.

I like that option of either +1 spellcasting or some other option. .. that makes the prc more versatile

Are these prcs going to alter the tier of the class entering it or will it keep entering classes at the same tier? (I hope for the last since tier 3 classes then could use such a prc without leaving t3)

---

I vote pixie, vampire and succubus just like khadgar :-)

Hard to say, because what tier is a pixie? What tier is a succubus? What tier is a vampire? Is an ECL 13 Vampire Warblade 5 still a tier 3 character? Also seeing as how Racial Paragon Classes have 1 prereq (race) it's hard to say because abilities that are +0 tier on Warblade are +1 tier on Fighter... Sort of... Kind of... PrCs modifying tiers starts to give the tier system issues as a diagnostic tool. Intent is to roughly aim for somewhere from the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer power level to the Swordsage/Warblade power level if the casting option is not taken (theoretically the casting option will be balanced for 'it's worth losing a level of spellcasting' or in the case of LA +5 races 'umm you're already shooting yourself in the foot have a free benny') which would make it a buff for Monks and Fighters but not for Warblades... of course hitting that mark is going to be the trick.

That said for the high LA races (pixie, mummy, succubus, vampire) I am likely biased to assume they were balanced at roughly tier 5 (since that's what Savage Species did by balancing everything against fighter) and will probably give them additional things to help compensate somewhat for that (because 13 levels of fighter is kind of bad). The theoretical desired balance point is for a Succubus Paragon 3 (ECL 15) to be somewhere between Gray Elf Beguiler 14/Mindbender 1 and Dwarf/Human Warblade 15 in power level (and below Beguiler/Rainbow Servant {text over table} builds), but hitting that admittedly wide mark will be a challenge.

@khadgar:

Dire Stirge also explicitly balanced them against optimized wizards (i.e. their examples were all optimized wizards) and for LA that worked at Lv 20. The first is a balance point that blows 90% of classes out of the water, and the 2nd is a design philosophy that makes them OP at the minimum level (that said LA really should be lowered at higher levels because abilities that are game changers at 5th are useless at 20th, LA buyoff is... half functional, but that's because any general rule for this will be and hands on DM involvement is the best practical approach). So I cannot agree with the basic design philosophy (and therefore cannot build off of it). Also Dire Stirge went on the assumption that their energy drain and at-will Charm Monster with DCs 5 higher than 7th level spells' were useless in combat (they can use the former via grapple, arguably they can kiss you via grapple and start getting free suggestions to kiss them more with your saving throws being debuffed each time; the latter even with the +5 bonus on saves against due to being in combat is still an at-will save or be taken out o the fight with a DC comparable to that which wizards are slinging). Compare a Succubus with PC gear and elite array to a Lv 9 warlock. Yeah both can use Charm Monster at-will and fly, but one can only have one charmed victim at a time, the other can make it Supernatural and thus undispellable and has a save DC of ~30 (note that the highest Core monster Will save at CR 9 is +13). Sure the warlock might have the edge in DPR (5d6 vs hahaha lol nope*). Then again at 9th level the number of things immune to mind-affecting which you can't just teleport (or ethereal jaunt) around is also slim (Intelligent undead).

*By which I mean assuming you don't stat yourself for melee, if you do you deal approximately fighter damage (i.e. significantly more than 5d6) but are playing against your strengths.

[CinuzIta]

I'm gonna vote for Gravetouched Ghoul, Ghost and Raptoran!

[St.Just]

Lets go with Rakshasa (Been thinking about them a lot recently ), Elan (Because I've always love the aberrant little freaks) and Yuan-ti Pureblood (because snakes is cool).

[AtlasSniperman]

Placing my votes on

Kenku
Kenku Neanderthal
Kenku Goliath

[Zaydos]

New Tally
Pixie 2.
Succubus 2.
Vampire 2.
Changeling 1.
Dvati 1.
Elan 1.
Ghost 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Kenku Goliath 1.
Kenku 1.
Mummy 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Rakshasa 1.
Raptoran 1.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 1.

The leading trio stays in the lead, yet it's not a strong one yet. Lots of variety in what's not that far behind and who knows maybe one of 'em has a blue shell up their sleeve? Will we find out next time on Vote! What racial (paragon) class would you like to see? Find out with me... after this word from our sponsor King Nod of the Land of Sleep.

[UrsusArctos]

Voting for Warforged and Goliath.

[khadgar567]

Voting for Warforged and Goliath.

and what you need to vote 3 thing in the treat

[ShiningStarling]

I vote for Changeling, Ghost, and Purebloods

[nonsi]

Changeling
Goliath
Lich

[Zaydos]

New Tally:

Changeling 3. Have to consider the ability to form a single pair of claws, or a bite attack. That said maybe not, but go with a +2 to a physical ability of choice that they can change, though really how much better than +2 to phys ability of choice is +2 to phys ability of choice that you can change?
Kenku Goliath 3. Reach. They will definitely get the ability to be considered large for all purposes where it's advantageous and not when otherwise. Including the ability to toggle their space between 5 by 5 and 10 by 10 as a free action each round (must have room to fit). Would have to glance over their culture again too.
Ghost 2.
Pixie 2.
Succubus 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Dvati 1.
Elan 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Kenku 1.
Lich 1.
Mummy 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Rakshasa 1.
Raptoran 1.
Warforged 1.

It seems like Goliath had that blue shell after all! As goliath and changelings, the bookies' favorites since the beginning, zip ahead we see some other contestants make their move. The unexpected yuan-ti snake racer slithers quickly to catch up with their three monstrous peers, and a boo seems to have attached itself to its by-Pelor-the-LA-on-this-template friend the Vampire*. Is this symbiosis or sabotage? Meanwhile Lich and Warforged finally get their starts. The warforged's God Wing is a legendary car with many fans, but will it carry it to victory in this red line? Is this not actually some sort of crazy Mario Kart esque wacky race? Is the announcer just mad? Will any of these questions be answered next time?

*Vampire's LA is due to the ability to create more vampires under your direct control which even at +8 LA is breakable, but which sends their LA skyrocketing. Though even without that they'd have a heft LA due to DR (+2 by SS guidelines), stats (+1), at-will dominate (+1 LA), bonus feats (+1 or 2 LA), nat armor (+2 LA), Fast Healing (+1 LA), Skill Bonuses (+1 or 2 LA), Energy Resistances (+1 LA), for +10 to +12; that said when you get to +10 or more LA things start being valued as less (because each level is worth more, natch), and without Create Spawn a vampire would probably be closer to LA +4 or +5 (as it is comparable to a lich, probably actually a little stronger so +5 or +6). Ghost's LA is due to incorporealness being that big of a thing and even compared to most tier 3s it's huge.

[paddyfool]

I vote for Elan, Goliath and Rakshasa.

[caledscratcher]

Pixie, Elan, Mummy!

[Vertharrad]

Bralani Eladrin, Dvati, and Succubus.

I have loved the idea of the Ghaele since I first saw it and this might be unreasonable but it makes me biased in the other eladrin's case as well, I also liked the Bralani for it's own reasons.
The Dvati captured my attention almost immediately upon seeing it. It may not compare to the Eladrin, but it gives it a leg up over the last entry.
Who doesn't like the seductrous of demons? The beguiling Succubus.

[VoodooPaladin]

Going with the spirit vote, with Bhuka, Rakshasa, and Spirit Folk.

[Zaydos]

New Tally:

Kenku Goliath 4. I will seriously need to hit the books for this one. Probably no option of casting, or if it has the option Druid only.
Changeling 3.
Elan 3. I'll admit I am almost dreading this one. Not because I dislike elan, but because I already made the full blown PrC version of an Elan Paragon. Step one will probably be look at the Complete Psionics Elan feats and that. Definitely get +1 or +2 psion, and get bonus power points even if you don't pick up psion manifesting through it.
Succubus 3. Was thinking Cha to AC but 1 level Battledancer dip already gives you that, and it would create a potential for 20+ AC disparity (note CR 20 dragons hit 'max' Core AC on a 2, and other CR 20s need substantially higher, and Power Attack if you have less than max, this would be everything needs a nat 20 to hit you) which is bad design (and means the DM really does just circumvent AC entirely). Still thinking some class features that benefit from being in light or no armor, and possibly specifically dressed in a way that accentuates your figure. Incubus/Succubus is one place I feel that is appropriate.
Pixie 3. Considering just flat giving more uses per day to SLAs (not as all they get) but seems boring. Will probably give them a suite of Image spells 1/day each (Silent, Minor, and Major) as one thing. Thought about Sneak Attack but that's boring, I'd rather emphasize the race's inbuilt abilities that PC classes can't improve.
Rakshasa 3. Definitely advances Sorcerer casting, probably no choice to ignore it since it's one of Rakshasa's defining traits and at ECL 15-17 it's balanced more like a PrC with extremely stringent prereqs than a base class. Some social stuff as well (3 levels of Social-Gish).
Dvati 2.
Ghost 2.
Mummy 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Kenku 1.
Lich 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Spirit Folk 1.
Warforged 1.

While fighting for 2nd place continues with natural favorites Changeling and Elan vying closely with expected 'monster' competitors succubus and pixie (I mean of monstrous races they're clear favorites). Goliath holds onto its first place position, holding strong even as it moves up, as always a fan supported race intended for PC use this comes as no surprise. However we have a surprise rush from the catmobile... I mean rakshasa. Still they are a popular undersupported monster, so we'll have to see what comes of it.

I have loved the idea of the Ghaele since I first saw it and this might be unreasonable but it makes me biased in the other eladrin's case as well, I also liked the Bralani for it's own reasons.

I will admit there's a part of me really interested in PC ghaeles (it was the monster class I wanted to play when Savage Species came out*), wanted it in 2e when I first saw them in the Planescape MC 2, wanted it in 3e when they announced Savage Species, never got to play it.

*Gets Full BAB, all Good Saves, and Full Cleric casting for like 5 levels before its first LA, in a low level game...

[Temotei]

Changeling, Dvati, Hadozee.

It makes me sad not to vote for the blue, though.

[PapaQuackers]

Ghost and Lich.

[Zaydos]

[QUOTE=Zaydos;21151835]New Tally:

Kenku Goliath 4.
Changeling 4. This I'd just need to start making. I mean I have ideas, though fewer social chameleon ones than I'd like (more shapeshiftery or possibly even mind-reading sla), but just need to work on them to hammer them out.
Dvati 3.
Elan 3.
Ghost 3.
Succubus 3.
Pixie 3.
Rakshasa 3.
Lich 2.
Mummy 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Spirit Folk 1.
Warforged 1.

Changeling morphs around the bend to catch up with the Gargoyle-Mobile... This just in goliaths are not related to that Goliath, and it is not a Gargoyle-Mobile but closer to something out of the Flintstones. This announcer apparently needs a better seat or glasses. With that move, though, our Changeling contestant is once again neck and neck with Goliath and has passed early favorites of Vampire, Succubus, and Pixie. In fact Vampire seems to be running out of gas, even his good friend Ghost proving parasitic as it launches ahead. What will Vampire-kun do now?

The vying for third place on the other hand is still ferocious. While the Dvati twins try and double dash past that boo is now on their tail, and everyone knows what that means someone is going to steal their item. Our succubus contender seems to have taken levels in paladin (of slaughter) as she easily shrugs off the mental blast from the Elan's PsyRacer, even as it sends the Pixie-Flyer into a tailspin but no wait... yes our little Pixie who could pulls out of it. She's still in the race... assuming she doesn't get hit by the Catmobile so close to her tail.

And yes this mock-announcing entertains me to write it.

It makes me sad not to vote for the blue, though.

It should. Blue is perhaps the most deserving contender

I'd probably not vote Blue either even though I always thought they were such a neat race.

[Temotei]

It should. Blue is perhaps the most deserving contender

I'd probably not vote Blue either even though I always thought they were such a neat race.

Maybe once I get working on that big goblin brew again I can do a thing for blues. Iono.

[UrsusArctos]

If I have another vote, (I only voted twice?) then I'm going to vote for Blues.

[Zaydos]

In general news if I do this again I'm going to have a shorter suggestions round (till Thursday) and 1 suggestion a person. However I will roll over old suggestions so things like Svirfneblin and Minotaur will remain, and may add a few myself. I mean I'll keep doing these as long as I keep enjoying them and people keep voting. By the Power of Tiamat's Skull I'd reopen the vote up a thing I made previously for me to add to (Zaydos Expands Past Work) if people were interested in it. I'd go with 3 votes for 3 different things, however if you share actual play experience about something I made (DMing or playing), preferably with notes on 'this worked' 'this did not' 'it needs an option that allows...' you can get a bonus vote to put into anything. Also if you suggest a way to expand something which gets ideas boiling in my mental tea pot then you'd get a bonus vote for that thing if you'd like; this would be purely subjective on, not even whether I think the suggestion is good or bad, but whether it makes me want to sit down and start working on it right away.

New Tally:

Kenku Goliath 4.
Changeling 4.
Dvati 3.
Elan 3.
Ghost 3.
Succubus 3.
Pixie 3.
Rakshasa 3.
Lich 2.
Mummy 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Spirit Folk 1.
Warforged 1.

When I update for 1/3rd of a person you do not get commentary.

Maybe once I get working on that big goblin brew again I can do a thing for blues. Iono.

I'm actually surprised Goblin didn't get suggested at least once. Was sort of hoping for a goblin voting block to emerge (Blue, Bhuka, Goblin).

If I have another vote, (I only voted twice?) then I'm going to vote for Blues.

Added. PapaQuackers could use a third if they want.

[Vertharrad]

I considered blue myself...but not this time, I'm sorry.

[EdroGrimshell]

Changeling, Elan, Maenad

[GnomishPride]

Dvati, Succubus, Lich
Woulda gone with Deep Gnome but at this point it doesn't have a prayer of getting enough votes.

[Zaydos]

New Tally:

Changeling 5.
Dvati 4.
Elan 4.
Kenku Goliath 4.
Succubus 4.
Ghost 3.
Lich 3.
Pixie 3.
Rakshasa 3.
Mummy 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Spirit Folk 1.
Warforged 1.

No commentary today.

I considered blue myself...but not this time, I'm sorry.

Honestly if I was voting blue would have been like my 5th or 6th choice.

Changeling, Elan, Maenad

Not adding new options in the middle of the voting so Maenad is out (there's a list in the OP as to the options). If I do another round after this one it will have a suggestion period at the beginning and you should feel free to suggest it then.

Other two tallied.

Dvati, Succubus, Lich
Woulda gone with Deep Gnome but at this point it doesn't have a prayer of getting enough votes.

That's fair. I mean I'm not sure I agree, it's got more time than has passed to get the votes, but I do expect most of the votes will have come in within the first 2 or so days. It would have been a longshot vote, though.

[dragonjek]

Spirit Folk
Lich
Pixie

[Grand Arbiter]

Dvati: They need help. Professional help. From having read them over once, I don't think they're very playable.
Elan: They, too, need some help. It feels like the psionics people just wanted a long-lived psionic race that wasn't an elf.
Rakshasa: They're cool. Some attention should be definitely be given.

[Zaydos]

New Tally:

Changeling 5.

Spoiler: Sample

Show

Physical Shift: A Changeling Paragon’s body is a fluid and shifting thing, and as such they learn to reinforce certain physical gifts when they re-work and shift their body. When you use Minor Shapechange you may choose one of the three bonuses below, this bonus applies until you use Minor Shapechange once more or you are forced back into your natural form (you may use Minor Shapechange to appear as your natural form to gain bonuses in it, but an effect which forces you to your natural form will still end these bonuses)

• Enhanced Musculature: +2 Strength and an additional +2 bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
• Enhanced Coordination: +2 Dexterity and a +10-ft bonus to your land speed and any swim or fly speed you possess, +5-ft bonus to any climb speed you possess.
• Enhanced Endurance: +2 Constitution and +2 natural armor.

Dvati 5.

Spoiler: Sample

Show

Improved Twin Link (Su): A Dvati paragon is more connected to their “twin” their very life force constantly fluctuating between them. Whenever a dvati paragon takes damage or regains hit points they may have any amount of the hp lost (or gain) be transferred to the other twin. In addition their psychic link is more powerful allowing them to always know their twin’s mental state and hit point total, and even see out of their twin’s eyes as a standard action. Finally a dvati paragon that casts a spell may have twin not currently casting a spell act normally but they cannot also cast a spell during that turn unless. A swift action spell may be cast, but only one twin can cast a swift action spell each round as well.

Elan 5.

Spoiler: Sample

Show

Psionic Capacity: Even those Elan which do not focus their pursuits on the psionic develop increased psionic reserves. You gain power points based on your character level as shown on the table below. You do not gain bonus power points for Elan Paragon levels (unless they increased your effective psion level in which case you get them for your effective psion level).

Level	Power Points	Improved Psionic Capacity
1	1
2	3
3	4	7
4	5	9
5	7	12
6	9	16
7	10	19
8	11	21
9	12	23
10	14	26
11	16	30
12	18	34
13	19	37
14	22	41
15	23	45
16	24	47
17	26	50
18	27	53
19	28	55
20	29	57

Explanation: Psionic Capacity means that they gain roughly the PP a Psion of their character level gained due to their most recent class level (1 less, increasing to 2 less at 7th, and 3 less at 17th). Improved Psionic Capacity they only gain if they forgo manifesting increases and simply adds the amount from one level lower to the current total. This is just to explain before people go ‘holy crap that’s half of a psychic warrior’s base PP pool’, I mean you still can if you think it’s too much, but it’s one of those it’s actually less than it seems (and comparing to PsiWar you’d be losing 3 ML for 21 PP, I mean you’d be getting more too but I haven’t written that yet).

Kenku Goliath 4.
Lich 4.
Pixie 4.
Rakshasa 4.
Succubus 4.
Ghost 3.
Mummy 2.
Spirit Folk 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Warforged 1.

And goliath falls behind. Changeling, our announcer's top bet for 1st place, is still staying strong, but would have expected Goliath to be its biggest contender not Elan and Dvati, not that those two are too surprising. In truth it's more surprising that Warforged lags so far behind. Still in the big pile up for 4th place we have some interesting contenders who could still push to the top, after all if I have to break ties, Changeling might be my personal first pick, but I do have a soft spot for rakshasa. We've got the expected goliath, I'd like to see win, though I'd probably go for a challenge race over it in a tie break assuming 2 of the current top 3 keep their positions, after all they're all PC races. Which brings us to the 'fun' race(r)s. Lich is a surprise contender, I mean I thought it was more likely than mummy or ghoul, but still high level caster... oh yes it's a caster thing and casters are fun. Still high level template, but I've got some fun ideas for it at this point borrowing from my favorite type of liches Gnome liches! Fizzlebitwilliwick the dragon is a dragon supremicist his favorite would be dragon liches, not gnomish ones, let me do the talking! Dracoliches! Next up is pixie, the most playable of the four 'fun' race(r)s, pixies are probably the hardest for this purpose. Still the little thing gives me some fun options, just got to resist the temptation to give it sneak attack. Trying to keep their lead is our succubus racer. One of the more playable monstrous races, they've lost some of their charm as at-will Charm Monster became easier to acquire, even so that whopping +16 Charisma modifier (+8 to save DC) gives them a punch. Still will the Stardust Seductress pull abreast with our leading trio? And last but not least we've got our surprise contender, rakshasa. A dark horse in this contest, still they've got some serious support it seems. Will the dark tiger pounce ahead?

Dvati: They need help. Professional help. From having read them over once, I don't think they're very playable.
Elan: They, too, need some help. It feels like the psionics people just wanted a long-lived psionic race that wasn't an elf.
Rakshasa: They're cool. Some attention should be definitely be given.

Dvati really do need help, I mean right now I'm more doing abilities to fix the race than abilities to actually be abilities. The thing is they've got scary potential... they just didn't need the casting rule they got, and even then they've got iffy elements. I've seen 'em played though and they actually play a lot better than they look and I need to remember that.

Elan actually do much better, they see use, they're not a top tier race but they're actually pretty well balanced with some neat abilities, the aberration type, and... ok they really only work as Psions and maybe Psychic Warriors (I guess Ardents too). The Cha penalty is a shame else they could be fun wilders too.

[EdroGrimshell]

Elan actually do much better, they see use, they're not a top tier race but they're actually pretty well balanced with some neat abilities, the aberration type, and... ok they really only work as Psions and maybe Psychic Warriors (I guess Ardents too). The Cha penalty is a shame else they could be fun wilders too.

Dreamscarred Press had a Racial Sub Level for them as Wilders that made their Cha effectively 2 higher for their manifesting at no cost IIRC. It's 3rd party for 3.5, but they're the people that did the official pathfinder psionics, so...

[Zaydos]

Dreamscarred Press had a Racial Sub Level for them as Wilders that made their Cha effectively 2 higher for their manifesting at no cost IIRC. It's 3rd party for 3.5, but they're the people that did the official pathfinder psionics, so...

Did it get ported to PF when they did that, because I seem to remember seeing it when I made a Werelion PsyWar in PF.