Steven UnIVerse: 4shadowing

[Manga Shoggoth]

So, you're asking why an empire which has just suffered a major rebellion might try to convince its population that they are powerless without empire-issued gear? You can't think of a single reason they might want to do that?

You haven't answered my question, save by invoking "big Lie" again. If all the Homeworld gems we see were using enhancements you might have a point, but if that is the case why are the Ruby gang not using some form of enhancement?

You seem to think you are arguing with me, but this is exactly the point I was trying to make.

Nope - my point was that Pearl can be terrifying without having to invoke "Big Lie", especially "you have no powers" (your ayguement). Also I was pointing out the error in "Pearls are told "you're only good for looking pretty"" - we have at least one example of a Homeworld Pearl who is not just "Looking Pretty".

And she is wrong. There aren't tons of her. There is one of her. There are other Rubies, but they aren't her. See: the other Rubies we have met.
...
A casted society is a lie. It is the idea that one's caste is who one is. It is the belief that Eyeball and Leggy are interchangeable, which is clearly false.

No doubt individual sheep can tell other sheep apart. I wouldn't be surprised that for a small sized flock the Farmer would be able to tell them apart. However, sheep are still pretty much interchangable at scale.

I am not saying that the Diamonds are paragons of truthfulness. I'm not defending the Homeworld caste system (and the Diamonds may believe it as much as the rest of the Homeworld, in which case it is not "Big Lie").

Spoiler: Quasi-leaked Episode spoiler

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Judging by Yellow Diamond's song, she believes in it, to the point she lists the functions of several gems and the castigates Blue for being a poor leader for them.

EDIT: Also there is one thing you are forgetting: This isn't quite the same as a human Caste system - In Homeworld, Gems are quite literally created for their function.

The thing is, we don't know that Peridot's ferrokenesis would actually aid her in doing her Kindergarden duties. we don't know what powers Era 1 peridots have, but the Ferrokenesis doesn't seem to do the same things her limb enhancers did for her. It could well be that era 1 peridots can just directly interface with technology or something instead of having to go through devices to do it.

Oh, quite true. We have very little to go on as far as show evidence is concerned. However, we have seen Pearl directly interface with technology, so I don't see that as being a specific Peridot power.

[Rater202]

Amethyst mentions "Skinny up there" when talking about beating Jasper for the sake of all of her fellow malformed gems.

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Do you think Skinny is the Tall, Thin Jasper that was part of the Famethyst?

[Manga Shoggoth]

Amethyst mentions "Skinny up there" when talking about beating Jasper for the sake of all of her fellow malformed gems.

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Do you think Skinny is the Tall, Thin Jasper that was part of the Famethyst?

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Now that is an interesting question.

How about a drinking game? Down one shot for each time you see a hole in Beta kindergarten that matches a Gem in the Zoo.

Mine's a ginger beer, by the way...

[theNater]

..."big Lie"..."Big Lie"..."Big Lie"...

This is starting to feel semantic. Are several of your issues resolved if I call it a big falsehood instead of a big lie? I am open to the idea that even the Diamonds believe it, but am using the word lie because I don't feel that falsehood properly conveys how horrifically, oppressively, vile a belief it is, even if falsehood is technically the more correct term.

For the use of limb enhancers if the Diamonds do believe it, it's easy to imagine a conversation that goes something like this:

Kindergartner: The first batch of era 2 gems are ready for your inspection, my Diamond.
Diamond: Why are they all so small?
Kindergartner: I'm not sure, my Diamond. It appears to be a side effect of the new process.
Diamond: *sigh* Of course it is. They weren't made like real gems. They probably don't even have any powers.
Kindergartner: We still need to run tests...
Diamond: Isn't it obvious? Just look at them. See if you can't find some way to bring them up to scratch.
Kindergartner: Yes, my Diamond.

Boom. Now there's a reason for limb enhancers, the falsehood is propagated without anybody knowing it, and nobody has any real incentive to question it.

Amethyst mentions "Skinny up there" when talking about beating Jasper for the sake of all of her fellow malformed gems.

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Do you think Skinny is the Tall, Thin Jasper that was part of the Famethyst?

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Also note that Peridot points out a Carnelian who came out sideways, and Famethyst also includes a Carnelian(who is, incidentally, one of my favorite characters already).

[Manga Shoggoth]

This is starting to feel semantic. Are several of your issues resolved if I call it a big falsehood instead of a big lie? I am open to the idea that even the Diamonds believe it, but am using the word lie because I don't feel that falsehood properly conveys how horrifically, oppressively, vile a belief it is, even if falsehood is technically the more correct term.

Probably because I am using the term for a reason. The "Big Lie" is a deliberate attempt by leaders to decieve the populace. I don't believe the Diamonds are being deliberately deceptive (at least in this case...)

For the use of limb enhancers if the Diamonds do believe it, it's easy to imagine a conversation that goes something like this:

Kindergartner: The first batch of era 2 gems are ready for your inspection, my Diamond.
Diamond: Why are they all so small?
Kindergartner: I'm not sure, my Diamond. It appears to be a side effect of the new process.
Diamond: *sigh* Of course it is. They weren't made like real gems. They probably don't even have any powers.
Kindergartner: We still need to run tests...
Diamond: Isn't it obvious? Just look at them. See if you can't find some way to bring them up to scratch.
Kindergartner: Yes, my Diamond.

Boom. Now there's a reason for limb enhancers, the falsehood is propagated without anybody knowing it, and nobody has any real incentive to question it.

And that is the sort of answer I am looking for! Not a simple repeatition of "The Diamonds are lying!".

(Seriously: This is one of the reasons I like this place - I may not agree with people here, but there are lots of very interesting viewpoints.)

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Also note that Peridot points out a Carnelian who came out sideways, and Famethyst also includes a Carnelian(who is, incidentally, one of my favorite characters already).

Kanpai!

[theNater]

Probably because I am using the term for a reason. The "Big Lie" is a deliberate attempt by leaders to decieve the populace. I don't believe the Diamonds are being deliberately deceptive (at least in this case...)

I was not aware of that use of the term, and was not intending to invoke it. Whether the Diamonds are aware their society is based on falsehoods or actually believe the falsehoods themselves is, in a discussion of the nature of that society, immaterial. The society is still based on falsehoods, the falsehoods are still producing harmful consequences, and the Diamonds are still actively perpetuating those falsehoods.

[LaZodiac]

Amethyst mentions "Skinny up there" when talking about beating Jasper for the sake of all of her fellow malformed gems.

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Do you think Skinny is the Tall, Thin Jasper that was part of the Famethyst?

This is a really good point that I totally forgot. I'm saying yes to this.

Also, on the topic at hand...you're all sure jumping through hoops to say that the gigantic horrible dictators AREN'T lying about a thing that would keep people in line. If you're going to Occam's Razor this, the thing you must cut through is if the Diamonds are lying or not. We know due to Peridot's actions that athe comment "era 2 gem's don't have powers" is a flawed statement. So we look at the base statement that that initial one came from. The Diamond's said that Era 2 gems don't have power.

Which is simpler? Some elaborate case of them misunderstanding, or them lying to keep people in line? As for the limb enhancers, maybe our Peridot and her cut where smaller. I forget her exact lines, but it definitely feels like a case of "here are some simple robot arms to stop you from discovering your powers or feeling feelings."

[Draconi Redfir]

Also, on the topic at hand...you're all sure jumping through hoops to say that the gigantic horrible dictators AREN'T lying about a thing that would keep people in line. If you're going to Occam's Razor this, the thing you must cut through is if the Diamonds are lying or not. We know due to Peridot's actions that athe comment "era 2 gem's don't have powers" is a flawed statement. So we look at the base statement that that initial one came from. The Diamond's said that Era 2 gems don't have power.

Which is simpler? Some elaborate case of them misunderstanding, or them lying to keep people in line? As for the limb enhancers, maybe our Peridot and her cut where smaller. I forget her exact lines, but it definitely feels like a case of "here are some simple robot arms to stop you from discovering your powers or feeling feelings."

I personally think it's simpler to argue that she's a fluke. it's not like the dimonds personally inspect every single peridot that exists. Peridots aren't made to have powers, and they're given enhancers to let them function without them. So how is it so hard to accept the idea that Peridot is the Jasper of era 2 Peridots and she was born with a power that she didn't know she had, and never learned she had because she never tried to use it due to being told she didn't have it?

actually had a big post made while reading this thread today all about it, but most of it was in reply to Manga Shoggoth who seems to have changed sides on the matter, so i'm hesitent to post it.

@Manga Shoggoth, would it be alright if i posted something reguarding Peridots powers that were written in somewhat frustrated response to your past posts? said posts are now obsolite so i won't post it without your consent.

[theNater]

This is a really good point that I totally forgot. I'm saying yes to this.

Also, on the topic at hand...you're all sure jumping through hoops to say that the gigantic horrible dictators AREN'T lying about a thing that would keep people in line. If you're going to Occam's Razor this, the thing you must cut through is if the Diamonds are lying or not. We know due to Peridot's actions that athe comment "era 2 gem's don't have powers" is a flawed statement. So we look at the base statement that that initial one came from. The Diamond's said that Era 2 gems don't have power.

Which is simpler? Some elaborate case of them misunderstanding, or them lying to keep people in line? As for the limb enhancers, maybe our Peridot and her cut where smaller. I forget her exact lines, but it definitely feels like a case of "here are some simple robot arms to stop you from discovering your powers or feeling feelings."

Well, as Rimmer would say, just because it's a 30-foot tall alien killing machine, doesn't mean it's a bad person.

More seriously, given the themes of the show, I think it's important to leave room for some or all of the Diamonds to have been suckered by their own propaganda. There's some stories you can tell with that which are a little harder to tell otherwise, and the misunderstanding doesn't have to be that elaborate.

Spoiler: Speculation based on Steven Bomb 5

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For example, I think the show might be setting up a Yellow vs. Blue conflict. Blue's interest in humans, sparked by Greg, might lead to her questioning some of the structure of gem society, with Yellow being unwilling to see what Blue learns.

I personally think it's simpler to argue that she's a fluke. it's not like the dimonds personally inspect every single peridot that exists. Peridots aren't made to have powers, and they're given enhancers to let them function without them. So how is it so hard to accept the idea that Peridot is the Jasper of era 2 Peridots and she was born with a power that she didn't know she had, and never learned she had because she never tried to use it due to being told she didn't have it?

If we're using real logic, the chance that the Peridot chosen for the Earth mission just happened to be the fluke is pretty low. So we have to use the narrative conceit that we're bringing all the special people together because that's how we make a good story. And that's fine, but I think we get a slightly better story if all era 2 Peridots have metal powers and nobody knows about it because gem society actively discourages self-exploration. And while nobody catching on for 5,000 years is much less likely than there being flukes, it's not as hugely less likely than there being a fluke and the fluke being the one sent to Earth. Since we're leaning on narrative conceits anyway, I tend to go for the second option.

[Benthesquid]

The whole 'human zoo' thing felt a lot like an old Star Trek ToS episode. Except with thoughtful, not looking for romance Greg instead of horndog Captain Kirk.

[Razade]

I think it's important to note what Amethyst says when Peridot discovers her powers and the exchange afterwards. Peridot just assumes she's her tech, that she's not anything special outside of that. It's not until she feels like she has to protect who she is that she displays her powers. A major theme of Steven Universe is self improvement and self discovery. The whole character arc of Peridot has been that she's more than just some drone in the Gem heirarchy, that she's got ideas that are worthwhile and she's a valuable member of any team she's part of. Her gaining powers is just another extension of that.

[Draconi Redfir]

If we're using real logic, the chance that the Peridot chosen for the Earth mission just happened to be the fluke is pretty low. So we have to use the narrative conceit that we're bringing all the special people together because that's how we make a good story. And that's fine, but I think we get a slightly better story if all era 2 Peridots have metal powers and nobody knows about it because gem society actively discourages self-exploration. And while nobody catching on for 5,000 years is much less likely than there being flukes, it's not as hugely less likely than there being a fluke and the fluke being the one sent to Earth. Since we're leaning on narrative conceits anyway, I tend to go for the second option.

Well to be fair this is IS a fictional setting. It's the same world where Amythist met not only annother gem from her kinderguarden but a whole BUNCH of them all at once, one of wich was directly above her. In an entire universe worth of space, she met the closest thing she has to a biological family on her very first trip off planet. the odds of THAT are at LEAST as high as the peridot being sent to earth being a fluke.

so yeah, it's a fictional story, of course inprobably odds are going to happn. to quote a particular bard, "a one in a million chance is a sure thing."

[Manga Shoggoth]

Actually had a big post made while reading this thread today all about it, but most of it was in reply to Manga Shoggoth who seems to have changed sides on the matter, so i'm hesitent to post it.

@Manga Shoggoth, would it be alright if i posted something reguarding Peridots powers that were written in somewhat frustrated response to your past posts? said posts are now obsolite so i won't post it without your consent.

I'm not aware that I've changed sides, but the discussion does seem to have meandered a little since it started. I also try to acknowledge other peoples arguements when they make what I feel are good points.

If you are worried about the content of the post, feel free to PM me rather than posting it.

EDIT:

Well, as Rimmer would say, just because it's a 30-foot tall alien killing machine, doesn't mean it's a bad person.

More seriously, given the themes of the show, I think it's important to leave room for some or all of the Diamonds to have been suckered by their own propaganda. There's some stories you can tell with that which are a little harder to tell otherwise, and the misunderstanding doesn't have to be that elaborate.

Spoiler: Speculation based on Steven Bomb 5

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For example, I think the show might be setting up a Yellow vs. Blue conflict. Blue's interest in humans, sparked by Greg, might lead to her questioning some of the structure of gem society, with Yellow being unwilling to see what Blue learns.

Ah, Red Dwarf...

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Well, she was surprised to have a Human (of all things) sympathise with her. It would be a good storyline.

I do wonder what would have happened if she had known that Greg was actually grieving for Rose, though.

Steven's expression on leaving the room with Yellow and Blue was quite interesting as well. He knows the Diamonds are the enemy, but he looks to be horrified at the extent of Blue's grief - and knowing that his mother caused this.

[Draconi Redfir]

nahhm think it's been too long, i'm just gunna trash it all i guess.

[Friv]

If we're using real logic, the chance that the Peridot chosen for the Earth mission just happened to be the fluke is pretty low. So we have to use the narrative conceit that we're bringing all the special people together because that's how we make a good story. And that's fine, but I think we get a slightly better story if all era 2 Peridots have metal powers and nobody knows about it because gem society actively discourages self-exploration. And while nobody catching on for 5,000 years is much less likely than there being flukes, it's not as hugely less likely than there being a fluke and the fluke being the one sent to Earth. Since we're leaning on narrative conceits anyway, I tend to go for the second option.

I'm still standing by my belief that all Gems have powers that are driven by a combination of emotional attachment and self-respect, and a side effect of modern Gem society is that they simply never learn to express those powers, because they're too locked into an extremely regimented caste structure. Peridot's metal powers emerge not because she is a fluke, but because she'd never had an opportunity to develop the empathy and connections to other people that allow those powers to grow.

The Diamonds may or may not be aware of this; either they view those powers as a threat to a secure society and thus discourage it, or they view it as a fair price to pay for stability, or they never really made the connection because they were too busy being horrified at what Earth's rebel Gems were up to.

(The existence of the Zoo Amethysts hits this a bit, but I'm going to assume that Holly keeping them uncertain and anxious has prevented them from developing powers on the scale of our Amethyst. Or heck, maybe they do have powers on that scale, and we just didn't see them use them this time around.)

[Manga Shoggoth]

Spoiler: On the Zoo

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(The existence of the Zoo Amethysts hits this a bit, but I'm going to assume that Holly keeping them uncertain and anxious has prevented them from developing powers on the scale of our Amethyst. Or heck, maybe they do have powers on that scale, and we just didn't see them use them this time around.)

if that's the case then they are going go have one heck of a boost to their powers now - I almost feel sorry for Holly, seeing her surrounded by Quartzes and Amythests who now have some serious hold over her...

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Zoo

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Those Quartz were all made on Earth before and during the rebellion--malformed as the Beta ones are, they're all Era 1 Gems and would have the powers of Era 1 Quartz of their specific type.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Spoiler: Zoo

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Those Quartz were all made on Earth before and during the rebellion--malformed as the Beta ones are, they're all Era 1 Gems and would have the powers of Era 1 Quartz of their specific type.

Spoiler: There's an old song about Zoos. Mercifully, I have forgotten it...

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Good point. They will have to content themselves with making Holly's life hell.

[Flickerdart]

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The whole 'human zoo' thing felt a lot like an old Star Trek ToS episode. Except with thoughtful, not looking for romance Greg instead of horndog Captain Kirk

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I bet the Zoo's AI was ecstatic at getting Greg, since the gene pool in the Zoo was so limited.

[Benthesquid]

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In the song "What's the Use of Feeling Blue?" (or possibly, "What's the Use of Feeling, Blue?") can anyone make out what Yellow Diamond lists a Lapis being good for? It sounds like "Terrafoot" or "Tear A Foot", neither of which makes much sense.

[theNater]

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In the song "What's the Use of Feeling Blue?" (or possibly, "What's the Use of Feeling, Blue?") can anyone make out what Yellow Diamond lists a Lapis being good for? It sounds like "Terrafoot" or "Tear A Foot", neither of which makes much sense.

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A Lapis terraforms.

[Admiral Squish]

An idea for a momswap AU idea occurred to me suddenly, where Jasper abandoned homeworld upon discovering fusion. She was once part of a 'perfect' fusion, much like Garnet, but her partner was corrupted after the rebellion. She's usually fine, but still longs for that kind of deep connection with another gem. She was with Lapis for a while, afterward, but the relationship soured and the two eventually realized how terrible they were for each other, so there's some tension there. Bonus points: the 'perfect partner' was the gem that became the Snow Monster.

I only write it here because I know I'll never have time to develop it properly and I don't think anyone of facebook would know what the hell I'm talking about.

[Zhentarim]

When is the January SU out?

[Rater202]

An idea for a momswap AU idea occurred to me suddenly, where Jasper abandoned homeworld upon discovering fusion. She was once part of a 'perfect' fusion, much like Garnet, but her partner was corrupted after the rebellion. She's usually fine, but still longs for that kind of deep connection with another gem. She was with Lapis for a while, afterward, but the relationship soured and the two eventually realized how terrible they were for each other, so there's some tension there. Bonus points: the 'perfect partner' was the gem that became the Snow Monster.

I only write it here because I know I'll never have time to develop it properly and I don't think anyone of facebook would know what the hell I'm talking about.

Um, back at a convention, the show staff confirmed that the Snow Monsters were other Jaspers(Which makes sense, since their gems looked like Biggs Jasper and Ocean Jasper,) and that the Fusion was only possible because the corrupted Gem was a Jasper.

Which would explain why Smokey was stronger than Fused Jasper--fused Jasper was like a Ruby Fusion. It's ultimately just a bigger Jasper. Smokey was a Fusion of two different Quartzes(and Peridot did confirm that there are different kinds of Quartzes)

[Manga Shoggoth]

Um, back at a convention, the show staff confirmed that the Snow Monsters were other Jaspers(Which makes sense, since their gems looked like Biggs Jasper and Ocean Jasper,) and that the Fusion was only possible because the corrupted Gem was a Jasper.

Which would explain why Smokey was stronger than Fused Jasper--fused Jasper was like a Ruby Fusion. It's ultimately just a bigger Jasper. Smokey was a Fusion of two different Quartzes(and Peridot did confirm that there are different kinds of Quartzes)

I'm confused. If Smokey is a fusion of two different Quartzes and Fused Jasper was a fusion of two different Jaspers, then surely they should both be the same "type" of fusion. If that is the case then they should both be homogenous fusions (like n-ruby) or both be hetrogenous (like just about every other fusion we have seen).

I can well believe that Jasper was only able to force fusion with the Snow Monster because they were both Jaspers - homogenous fusion seems quite easy, and hetrogenous fusion seems to require a degree of consent (which a corrupted gem may not be able to give).

Likewise, the Jasper Fusion could well be weakened because the Snow Monster was corrupted, so Fused Jasper didn't have the full access to both personallities that other hetrogenous fusions have.

Do we have any examples of forced fusion between different Gems (apart from the mutants and the Cluster, which were created from shards)? I can't think of any off-hand. Malachite sort of comes to mind, but the fusion was initially consensual on both sides, albiet for different reasons.

[John Cribati]

Quartz is the broad type.
Jasper is the subtype.
So everything that counts as a Jasper is the same type of Gem, just with weird coloring.

Like, Ruby and Sapphire share a broad type as well, since they're both Corundums, but they're clearly different subtypes (ironically, IL sapphires are the more abundant and rubies are rare)

[Rater202]

I'm confused. If Smokey is a fusion of two different Quartzes and Fused Jasper was a fusion of two different Jaspers, then surely they should both be the same "type" of fusion. If that is the case then they should both be homogenous fusions (like n-ruby) or both be hetrogenous (like just about every other fusion we have seen).

I can well believe that Jasper was only able to force fusion with the Snow Monster because they were both Jaspers - homogenous fusion seems quite easy, and hetrogenous fusion seems to require a degree of consent (which a corrupted gem may not be able to give).

Likewise, the Jasper Fusion could well be weakened because the Snow Monster was corrupted, so Fused Jasper didn't have the full access to both personallities that other hetrogenous fusions have.

Do we have any examples of forced fusion between different Gems (apart from the mutants and the Cluster, which were created from shards)? I can't think of any off-hand. Malachite sort of comes to mind, but the fusion was initially consensual on both sides, albiet for different reasons.

Off the top of my head all I can think of is that different kinds of "Jasper" all count as the same kind of quartz, and thus the same kind of gem, while different quartzes made for different purposes count as different gems.(This is supported by Peridot claiming that amethysts and jaspers are completely different quartzes, and further supported by Ruby and Sapphire, both forms of corundum, having completely opposite elements, roles, ranks in gem society, and uses)

Rose Quartz was apparently a general, while Amethysts are apparently supposed to be big, dumb, loyal brutes. Different purpose, different kind of gem. At the very least, Rose had powers that aren't demonstrated in other types of Quartz.

So Jasper+Corrupted Jasper=Bigger, Semi Corrupted Jasper(Homogeneous Fusion), but Rose/Steven+Amethyst=New Kind of Quartz(Heterogeneous Fusion)

[Manga Shoggoth]

So Jasper+Corrupted Jasper=Bigger, Semi Corrupted Jasper(Homogeneous Fusion), but Rose/Steven+Amethyst=New Kind of Quartz(Heterogeneous Fusion)

Fair point - Actually, I had forgotten that Steven wasn't a "pure" quartz - and as I see Steven as essentially a Greg/Rose fusion to start with, then yes, Smokey is a Heterogeneous fusion.

Quartz is the broad type.
Jasper is the subtype.
So everything that counts as a Jasper is the same type of Gem, just with weird coloring.

Yes, I get that, but my pont was that the same reasoning for Jasper also applied to Smokey Quartz. Then Rater reminded me of the other bits involved in Smokey.

Like, Ruby and Sapphire share a broad type as well, since they're both Corundums, but they're clearly different subtypes (ironically, IL sapphires are the more abundant and rubies are rare)

Interesingly, Garnet is not shown as that much more powerful than the other Gems - save that she (as a fusion of one combat and one non-combat gems) is still good enough to take on Jasper one-on-one when there are no destablisers in hand. Perhaps Garnet really counts as a homogenous fusion after all?

Of course, the writers may be running off different logic, or may not be all that interested in the actual detail.

[Rater202]

Let me try again, you got the point I was making but misunderstood my reasoning.

There are different kinds of Quartz, Peridot confirms.

We know from the drastically seperate roles of Ruby and Sapphire that different types of the same RL gem(in their case, Corrundum) can count as different gems for Living Gems. Jasper and Amethyst are another example--in real life, amethysts and jaspers are the same kind of quartz, but the Gems Jasper and Amethyst are different kinds of Quartz, again, Peridot confirms.

Furthermore, different Quartz demonstrate different abilities--Neither Amethyst nor Jasper demonstrates Rose's healing powers or floating or plant powers or the ability to use bubbles as a shield.

I'm saying that, as far as fusion is concerned, different kinds of quartz are different kinds of gems.

Jaspers like Perfect Jasper and the Snow Monsters(Biggs and Ocean Jasper, going by color) are one kind of Quartz, Amethysts are a similar but distinct Qartz, and Rose Quartz are a different quartz all together.

So, Perfect Jasper+Corrupt Jasper is a fusion of two of the same gem, like the ruby Fusions. It's Jasper but bigger, not really a new person. Smokey Quartz is a fusion of two different kinds of Quartz, and thus, two different kinds of gems, making it a new person who is Steven+Amethyst and then some.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Let me try again, you got the point I was making but misunderstood my reasoning.

I'm sorry - I really should have phrased my earlier response better: I understood your reasoning (and it's a good arguement), but I don't necessarly agree with it.

However, in the process you reminded me that there was more to Smokey Quartz than just the "Quartz" bit.

Either way, we get to the same answer.