WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Forcing all of that to be manual would be detrimental.

Absolutely. Heck, I know we sent a tank to queue up for LFR repeatedly because he wasn't getting the Ursoc tank swap timing down right. Without the ability to pop in and out that would take him FOREVER.

[Togath]

Nope. Addons aren't allowed to interface with the actual models at all, to my knowledge.

Well darn. Would be REALLY nice not to have lag spikes every time I go into popular areas...
Even worse when it's a popular area for hunters...
And a weird number of those hunters are BM...

[Icewraith]

Well darn. Would be REALLY nice not to have lag spikes every time I go into popular areas...
Even worse when it's a popular area for hunters...
And a weird number of those hunters are BM...

Sounds like your graphics card isn't cutting it.

[The_Jackal]

Well darn. Would be REALLY nice not to have lag spikes every time I go into popular areas...
Even worse when it's a popular area for hunters...
And a weird number of those hunters are BM...

What's the specs on your system? You're likely facing one of two potential problems: a) your GPU doesn't have enough horsepower to rasterize. b) your video RAM is too small to buffers all the textures you need in order to show everything in the area.

[ryuplaneswalker]

True, I was using a very broad definition of "endgame" there ("stuff to do at 110," basically) but the fact remains that being able to queue for even the sub-Mythic stuff is useful to learn the fights, to to gear up, to practice your class and talents etc. And that's before we get to the rewards for queuing like AP, bloods, timewalking stuff etc.

Forcing all of that to be manual would be detrimental.

Not only forcing it to be manual would be a detriment, it would actively drive players away. The tools they have for non-automatic grouping are objectively BAD by almost every standard. The Premade groupfinder is atrocious to use for anything but outdated and out geared content, I spent 2 hours tonight in Dalaran NOT playing the game staring at the Premade group finder applying to groups for content I outgear and getting turned down, until I got 1 Raid..to fight 1 boss. I literally spend more time fighting with the god awful Premade group system than I do actual relevant content.

[Icewraith]

Not only forcing it to be manual would be a detriment, it would actively drive players away. The tools they have for non-automatic grouping are objectively BAD by almost every standard. The Premade groupfinder is atrocious to use for anything but outdated and out geared content, I spent 2 hours tonight in Dalaran NOT playing the game staring at the Premade group finder applying to groups for content I outgear and getting turned down, until I got 1 Raid..to fight 1 boss. I literally spend more time fighting with the god awful Premade group system than I do actual relevant content.

What are you talking about? The group finder tool is a hell of a lot better than the in-game alternative, which is spamming trade chat on your server hoping someone is putting a group together to do whatever you're after. At the very least you can see if anyone else out there is actually looking to run that content. You can also see what item levels they're asking for, and you can see how many healers and tanks they already have lined up for their group.

Actually pugging a raid is still as hit or miss as it's ever been, but with a larger pool of people to pick from it's easier to get in one with the tool then it ever was in BC if you didn't already know the raid leader. Unless your character's name is something like "pooface6969" (I'm significantly less likely to invite people with those kind of names) or you're some kind of silly dps death knight I don't understand why you're having issues with the tool. :p

[Togath]

So it turns out having battlenet close while WoW is active massively speeds it up for me.

On a more game related note...
Anyone have advice for soloing as a havoc DH? What artifact abilities should I aim for?

Advice for a hunter would be welcome too. So far I'm enjoying survival, but a little unsure of what abilities to use(though +13% damage per target for every extra target hit on a semi spamable AoE seems AMAZING, especially for dungeons and raids). I'm also a little curious about how good the other tow specs are. Marksman's damage seems pretty good, but with less utility and self healing, but Beast mastery seems... Rather lackluster, at least without the artifact. I have a lot fewer abilities, and none of them really seem as spectacular. Now, I'd imagine the pets could tank rares and such pretty well compared to other specs, but it just doesn't quite seem worth it compared to what other specs offer, unless I'm missing something.

[The_Jackal]

Not only forcing it to be manual would be a detriment, it would actively drive players away. The tools they have for non-automatic grouping are objectively BAD by almost every standard. The Premade groupfinder is atrocious to use for anything but outdated and out geared content, I spent 2 hours tonight in Dalaran NOT playing the game staring at the Premade group finder applying to groups for content I outgear and getting turned down, until I got 1 Raid..to fight 1 boss. I literally spend more time fighting with the god awful Premade group system than I do actual relevant content.

Yet somehow being grouped randomly with the same cohort of unreasonable ****heads is magically going to deliver a better experience? I don't dispute that finding a group requires effort, but it is this effort that induces players to form guilds and make friends, so that reciprocity can take hold and there starts to be an upside for carrying people through content and helping them gear up, even if you're not quite as likely to reap immediate benefit.

I don't dispute that removing the queue will put off players. It may even make subscriptions drop. But it's not as if the addition of the queue was some incredible draw. People came to see the content, not to be randomly shackled to strangers.

I guess what chafes me is the inconsistency the developers offer between blocking (innocuous) convenience 'for the good of the game' (removing flying), and simultaneously enabling convenience which is demonstrably BAD for the game (truncating/lobotomizing leveling, anonymous, challenge-free queued content). I would much rather keep my flying mount and have to put more effort into the parts of the game that pay dividends: Making friends and getting gear.

[ryuplaneswalker]

What are you talking about?The group finder tool is a hell of a lot better than the in-game alternative,

I am talking about the In game one, the one that killed Open Raid

which is spamming trade chat on your server hoping someone is putting a group together to do whatever you're after.

And having done both the Pre-Made Group finder, and Spamming Trade..they are similarly effective.

At the very least you can see if anyone else out there is actually looking to run that content. You can also see what item levels they're asking for, and you can see how many healers and tanks they already have lined up for their group.

Yes, but you still don't get to actually DO things while you are waiting for a group. That is why it isn't very much better than spamming trade because you still have to sit with your thumb up your rear end. You can't filter groups that obviously don't want you out, you can't filter out groups that don't want your role, you can't even mark groups to not show up in your search.

Actually pugging a raid is still as hit or miss as it's ever been, but with a larger pool of people to pick from it's easier to get in one with the tool then it ever was in BC if you didn't already know the raid leader. Unless your character's name is something like "pooface6969" (I'm significantly less likely to invite people with those kind of names) or you're some kind of silly dps death knight I don't understand why you're having issues with the tool. :p

Uh yeah, I am a Death Knight, and I have issues with it because it is TERRIBLY DESIGNED, which the Developers stated in the 2015 blizzcon and what work have they put in to make it better to use? NONE.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, but you still don't get to actually DO things while you are waiting for a group. That is why it isn't very much better than spamming trade because you still have to sit with your thumb up your rear end. You can't filter groups that obviously don't want you out, you can't filter out groups that don't want your role, you can't even mark groups to not show up in your search.

Considering this, at least, is objectively false, I have to wonder what group finder tool you are actually using. It sure isn't the one included in the game. You can do literally anything while simultaneously letting your queues run, or your applications to premade groups. Your obsession with filters seems odd too - if you see a group with 3 DPS and you're a DPS...just don't apply for it? It's not like the three sword symbols are invisible.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

So it turns out having battlenet close while WoW is active massively speeds it up for me.

Wait, you can actually close Battlenet while the game is running? Maybe I should try that. My game tends to slow down terribly in certain spots.

[Sian]

M co-tank is just not getting the hang of Odyn's spear. So the whole raid is doing the first two phases of the fight perfectly, and then we get to 55% and then boom.

Well, to be fair, after a mindnumbingly boring first two phases for the tanks, the increased awareness the tanks are required to have, as to where you can run at any given point when targeted by the spear, is just silly.

Odyn is a fairly easy boss everything said, but after two boring phases I'm all but asleep on my computer

[ryuplaneswalker]

Considering this, at least, is objectively false, I have to wonder what group finder tool you are actually using. It sure isn't the one included in the game. You can do literally anything while simultaneously letting your queues run, or your applications to premade groups. Your obsession with filters seems odd too - if you see a group with 3 DPS and you're a DPS...just don't apply for it? It's not like the three sword symbols are invisible.

You can not really do anything in any sort of real capacity while digging through a large list of groups to find one that is actually worthwhile to apply to sure I can quest but it takes far longer to do a quest when you have to stop every five minutes to dig through a list of 20+ groups, I am not talking about LFR Ques or LFG ques, I am speaking purely of the Pre-made group finder. The automatic Ques are fine, they perform the job they are meant for exactly as they should. I want filters so I can remove the 10 groups from my list that all demand "AOTC ONLY!!!!!" "NORMAL EMERALD NIGHTMARE 880+ Itemlevel only!" or raids that have killed the boss I am specifically looking for. AKA I want it to be an actually effective tool and not an after thought that they put in when they had an actually GOOD system for this exact same stuff in 5.4, and the dps numbers for finding a raid is far more complicated than "oh 3 swords guess they don't want me."

[Psyren]

Yet somehow being grouped randomly with the same cohort of unreasonable ****heads is magically going to deliver a better experience? I don't dispute that finding a group requires effort, but it is this effort that induces players to form guilds and make friends, so that reciprocity can take hold and there starts to be an upside for carrying people through content and helping them gear up, even if you're not quite as likely to reap immediate benefit.

1) I really don't know what kind of groups you are forming; I get a bad group once every 10 runs if that. If you're running into that much toxicity, there may be something else at play here, including some soul-searching that may need to be done.

2) Clearly queues are not disincentivizing people from forming guilds and making friends, given that queues exist but people are currently doing that. Now, this might be purely for raiding and Mythic purposes, or for premades and arenas - fine. But having a queue system in place for the lower difficulties so people can practice is a good thing. The benefits of being able to rapidly iterate and learn mechanics far outweigh the occasional bad apple.

I don't dispute that removing the queue will put off players. It may even make subscriptions drop. But it's not as if the addition of the queue was some incredible draw. People came to see the content, not to be randomly shackled to strangers.

You do realize that queues are the reason why many people get to "see the content" right?

I guess what chafes me is the inconsistency the developers offer between blocking (innocuous) convenience 'for the good of the game' (removing flying), and simultaneously enabling convenience which is demonstrably BAD for the game (truncating/lobotomizing leveling, anonymous, challenge-free queued content). I would much rather keep my flying mount and have to put more effort into the parts of the game that pay dividends: Making friends and getting gear.

I have plenty of friends, I don't need every single dungeon run to become a bonding experience. Sometimes I just want to try out a new talent choice, or practice a spec change, or see for myself what their last patch did to my performance. Again, rapid iteration is key to self-improvement, and queues directly enable that for group content, which would otherwise be highly inefficient and a barrier to play. If they removed queues from the game, at the very least they would lose my sub dollar and I think many others.

Besides which, clearly queues being here has not caused you or players like you to leave, and you can simply pretend they don't exist if you like.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I can confirm that Legendaries do drop out of Emissary Caches, because I just got one from there. Weight of Earth.

It's not the top recommended one for Warrior, but still pretty sweet. Increases radius of Heroic Leap and applies Colossus Smash to all enemies hit. Great for AOE, not so much for single target.

IL 910, so I guess it's true that they've scaled these up. Those who picked theirs up before the patch should have theirs increased to the new number, according to the Q&A.

[Sian]

when Legendaries were upgraded, Blizzard were also out saying that, yes it was done, but that if people couldn't see it it was because their WoW/Cache had the old one and you'd have to delete the cache so it updated the tooltips ... Ilvl was upgraded no matter if the tooltip showed it or not...

[Togath]

On a more game related note...
Anyone have advice for soloing as a havoc DH? What artifact abilities should I aim for?

Advice for a hunter would be welcome too. So far I'm enjoying survival, but a little unsure of what abilities to use(though +13% damage per target for every extra target hit on a semi spamable AoE seems AMAZING, especially for dungeons and raids). I'm also a little curious about how good the other tow specs are. Marksman's damage seems pretty good, but with less utility and self healing, but Beast mastery seems... Rather lackluster, at least without the artifact. I have a lot fewer abilities, and none of them really seem as spectacular. Now, I'd imagine the pets could tank rares and such pretty well compared to other specs, but it just doesn't quite seem worth it compared to what other specs offer, unless I'm missing something.

Also, is there some benefit I'm missing to using stuff like mechanical pets over cranes or basilisks or something?(for non-BM hunters)

[Icewraith]

You can not really do anything in any sort of real capacity while digging through a large list of groups to find one that is actually worthwhile to apply to sure I can quest but it takes far longer to do a quest when you have to stop every five minutes to dig through a list of 20+ groups, I am not talking about LFR Ques or LFG ques, I am speaking purely of the Pre-made group finder. The automatic Ques are fine, they perform the job they are meant for exactly as they should. I want filters so I can remove the 10 groups from my list that all demand "AOTC ONLY!!!!!" "NORMAL EMERALD NIGHTMARE 880+ Itemlevel only!" or raids that have killed the boss I am specifically looking for. AKA I want it to be an actually effective tool and not an after thought that they put in when they had an actually GOOD system for this exact same stuff in 5.4, and the dps numbers for finding a raid is far more complicated than "oh 3 swords guess they don't want me."

Raid composition isn't that hard.

Two tanks.
One healer plus one healer per five people (round to nearest whole number, minimum total three healers or two very geared healers).
Enough dps to satisfy the healer equation (minimum four Hunters).I'm only half kidding about the hunters, it seems like they're everywhere!

Alright, now let's talk about the group finder tool.

In my experience, it works great. Any time I need a group for an elite world quest or world boss, I can get one within minutes.

When we were raiding and had a healer shortage (we haven't had much of a shortage this expansion), we could usually find a competent healer from the group finder queue with a few minutes of waiting. If we needed dps to cover our heals (if we only had 10 for archi for instance, we'd have a smoother ride if we pugged a healer and four mediocre dps because the fight is easier with more people), I could see the applicant's class and gear score.

When I've needed to pug a raid, it's been equally easy to find a group that needs me. Of course, I tank. So I just look for a group that has at least two healers in it and is short a tank and once I join it'll probably fill. Once you've got a tank and two healers or three healers you'll probably get the others in short order.

Your problem, on the other hand, sounds like an economics issue. DPS are in low demand and high supply. There are so many dps looking to pug a raid that in those rare occasions when we actually needed dps, I had two or three times as many applications from the group finder tool as I had spots. In seconds. At the time, the hit rate for dps was about one every couple seconds, the hit rate for healers was about one every 1-4 minutes, depending on the number of healers already in the group, and the hit rate for tanks was similar.

So if you're spending a lot of time in the tool and not getting a lot of results, it's not necessarily the tool's fault. Speaking as a raid leader, here are some suggestions to improve your success rate:

1: Get more gear. Yeah I know, obvious, and if you can't find a group in the first place, Catch-22. But seriously, if I'm only looking to fill two dps slots and I get six responses, unless I'm looking for specific raid utility the slots are going to the two people with the best gear. And because there are so many responses, I can afford to be picky.

2: Find a buddy (that tanks or heals).

3: Find a buddy (with better gear than you).

Either way, unless I'm only looking to fill one spot, I like people that come in groups. In my experience they tend to have a better idea of what they're doing. If I'm at 2/3/9 and a healer grouped with a dps responds, unless the healer is really undergeared I'm probably willing to live with 2/4/10 instead of not raiding for longer.

4: Tank. You should have a decent amount of artifact research by now, so even if your tank artifact has zero points in it, you should be able to get at least two of the golden traits unlocked pretty darn quick. If all you're after is normal EN, that's enough. Tanks leaving can kill a pug group you're already in, so even if you've got the tank set as a backup you can stop the raid from falling apart by switching specs.

5: Find a buddy (with complementary raid utility). You're a DK (with a Battle Rez), so find a mage or shaman or similar that can provide hero/lust etc. If the raid still needs one, but not the other, you'll both get in.

6: Pug earlier in the raid week. Pugging on a Sunday or Monday night can be significantly worse than pugging on a Tuesday or Thursday. The later you are in the raid week, the more people already have boss kills and aren't interested in the content you're after. The population of potential tanks and healers to pull from is smaller and thus the chances of a successful raid forming go down. The one exception is fresh runs- people who are saved on their mains may be on alts while the group finder is full of people looking to pick off the last couple of bosses. You won't necessarily have the most geared players but people on alts will know the fights. During SoO I was pugging heavily and the two types of raids that went well on Sun/Mon nights were last boss only or fresh.

7: Be willing to kill bosses you have already killed in order to get to bosses you haven't. Be willing to miss a boss if it gets you other kills you didn't have before.

8: Form your own raid group and lead the raid. This will be a lot more successful if you can find a couple heals and/or are willing to tank. Tanks and healers are looking for groups that already have tanks and healers, to minimize the amount of time they have to wait while the group fills. By the same token, groups with a ton of dps and zero or one heals tend to just sit there. Putting a raid together is all about the tanks and heals, as far as dps go: if you build it, they will come.

[The_Jackal]

Your problem, on the other hand, sounds like an economics issue. DPS are in low demand and high supply.

Exactly this. This issue is precisely why I've been advocating for a MMO-style game which finally eliminates the totally needless 'support class' albatross. This entire genre of gaming seems to be stuck on this zombie idea that won't die: That creating an indispensable niche for certain abilities is a good idea.

I'll admit, I've tanked a lot, and yes, it's nice to be appreciated because I have a supply of something that's in short supply. But what's the objective merit in throttling the vast majority's enjoyment of the game (can't find group, can't do content, can't advance), just for the sake of shoehorning support roles which are broadly unpopular? I don't know about anyone else, but I'd happily trade my main tank status for the ability for everyone to get a group together without having to fill a mandatory roster niche.

Besides, mechanically, the 'set roster' tank/healer dynamic limits the possibilities of what fights can be like. Every fight needs a tank swap. Every fight needs some unavoidable group damage to keep the healers from being bored. Is it any wonder that Emerald Nightmare feels mechanically similar to Highmaul? Kargath =~ Nythendra; Butcher =~ Ursoc; Twin Ogron =~ Dragons. It's the formula that makes the fights begin to feel formulaic.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Exactly this. This issue is precisely why I've been advocating for a MMO-style game which finally eliminates the totally needless 'support class' albatross. This entire genre of gaming seems to be stuck on this zombie idea that won't die: That creating an indispensable niche for certain abilities is a good idea.

I'll admit, I've tanked a lot, and yes, it's nice to be appreciated because I have a supply of something that's in short supply. But what's the objective merit in throttling the vast majority's enjoyment of the game (can't find group, can't do content, can't advance), just for the sake of shoehorning support roles which are broadly unpopular? I don't know about anyone else, but I'd happily trade my main tank status for the ability for everyone to get a group together without having to fill a mandatory roster niche.

Besides, mechanically, the 'set roster' tank/healer dynamic limits the possibilities of what fights can be like. Every fight needs a tank swap. Every fight needs some unavoidable group damage to keep the healers from being bored. Is it any wonder that Emerald Nightmare feels mechanically similar to Highmaul? Kargath =~ Nythendra; Butcher =~ Ursoc; Twin Ogron =~ Dragons. It's the formula that makes the fights begin to feel formulaic.

I think the solution is a little more complicated than that though, although I agree that keeping the "set" format does limit mechanics considerably.

For example, one of the reasons that tanks are important in WoW is that both of them HAVE to remain alive -- the boss simply chews through the healers, for example. What you're suggesting can work, but it also takes some of the tension off -- there's never a time when a healer has to REALLY worry about whether to prioritize himself, the tank, or a DPS, because all roles are, effectively, interchangeable at a moment's notice. And, in fact, that healer isn't a healer really -- he's just the same flexible role as anyone else. So you might run the risk of everyone feeling generic, which is concerning.

Just something to keep in mind -- it would definitely be a fun design challenge to take on.

[Icewraith]

Exactly this. This issue is precisely why I've been advocating for a MMO-style game which finally eliminates the totally needless 'support class' albatross. This entire genre of gaming seems to be stuck on this zombie idea that won't die: That creating an indispensable niche for certain abilities is a good idea.

I'll admit, I've tanked a lot, and yes, it's nice to be appreciated because I have a supply of something that's in short supply. But what's the objective merit in throttling the vast majority's enjoyment of the game (can't find group, can't do content, can't advance), just for the sake of shoehorning support roles which are broadly unpopular? I don't know about anyone else, but I'd happily trade my main tank status for the ability for everyone to get a group together without having to fill a mandatory roster niche.

Besides, mechanically, the 'set roster' tank/healer dynamic limits the possibilities of what fights can be like. Every fight needs a tank swap. Every fight needs some unavoidable group damage to keep the healers from being bored. Is it any wonder that Emerald Nightmare feels mechanically similar to Highmaul? Kargath =~ Nythendra; Butcher =~ Ursoc; Twin Ogron =~ Dragons. It's the formula that makes the fights begin to feel formulaic.

I think your idea doesn't work in most MMOs, where classes are strongly archetypal.

Also, some people preferentially play support classes. Just because you don't enjoy playing support doesn't mean it's an albatross.

I don't think the fights you list feel the same at all. Well... maybe Butcher to Normal Ursoc, but Heroic Ursoc is a whole different thing. Mix Butcher with whatsisface after Patchwerk.

Kargath is completely different from Nythendra. Kargath has a (cool) forced raid split, adds, an aggro drop mechanic that forces dps to kite, predictable raid hazards, mandatory Tank cooldown usage...

Dragons of Nighmare has a lot more in common with Four Horsemen than it does Twin Ogron. If you mix Omnitron Defense System (rotating active bosses with different abilities) with Four Horsemen (boss emits a stacking debuff that is bad if it goes too high, forcing a raid split) you get something that resembles Dragons of Nightmare. I mean, Twin Ogron the whole point is keep them together but don't cross the streams, whereas Dragons you're keeping them as far apart as you can for as long as you can.

If anything, Twin Ogron =~Nythendra. You've got a periodic raid-wide damage zone in a complex pattern forcing movement, the boss emits an avoidable damage zone at regular intervals, and the raid needs to selectively stack and unstack to controll a debuff. Moving the boss poorly will cause a wipe.

Ilgy is probably intentionally an homage to Yogg and C'thun.

Random Druid Boss ... whatsherface, something like Ethylene Renferal... sort of steals mechanics from six-ish different fights. The overall look is if Fandral Staghelm switched between Beth'tilac and Alysrazor only in green instead of red. The actual mechanics are more like ... Ji-Kun (bird that hits tank with talon attack forcing switch and channels aoe push off platform with death pit), the feather thing is sort of like Alys but instead of a prolonged flight phase you just get to ground-pound spider adds to death (and dodge tornadoes), Blood Queen Lanathiel (tank damage split link), and there's a pretty complex interaction with the debuffs in that fight. There's also an avoidable punt, adds that shouldn't get on the main tank that drop a damage zone when killed... The combination doesn't feel like anything similar, even though the mechanics do.

Cenarius sort of plays like Professor Putricide (adds-boss swing with burn phase that involves crap on the ground everywhere) only instead of piloting a vehicle the off tank is handling adds with specific abilities (Horridon?) with a possibly unique twist on "stand somewhere and drop your debuff". The first two thirds of the fight is more like Malchezzar for me, in that I park my butt in the back and don't move unless something goes terribly wrong and tank the actual boss. But Cenarius doesn't hit like Malchezzar did, and tanking itself is very different from way back then. Maybe it would feel more similar if I wasn't usually the vehicle tank for Putricide, but I have ceded add duties on Cenarius to the DH on the basis that his cleave is pretty built-in.

Xavius... there's a bit of Archominde 2.0 in there, mainly with the debuff that results in a damage line and the big, screen-blocking central boss with various adds that must be killed. But it doesn't really feel like that fight, because a lot of that fight is dominated by the forced movement from flames, and then in the last part there's the banishing and the infernals. Xavius is much more straightforward.

[The_Jackal]

I think the solution is a little more complicated than that though, although I agree that keeping the "set" format does limit mechanics considerably.

For example, one of the reasons that tanks are important in WoW is that both of them HAVE to remain alive -- the boss simply chews through the healers, for example. What you're suggesting can work, but it also takes some of the tension off -- there's never a time when a healer has to REALLY worry about whether to prioritize himself, the tank, or a DPS, because all roles are, effectively, interchangeable at a moment's notice. And, in fact, that healer isn't a healer really -- he's just the same flexible role as anyone else. So you might run the risk of everyone feeling generic, which is concerning.

Just something to keep in mind -- it would definitely be a fun design challenge to take on.

To be fair, what I'm proposing is a very severe paradigm shift from what WoW is, to the point where I'm not sure we're even playing the same game anymore, and it might very well put off many enthusiastic WoW players. In particular, I've heard from many healers who have expressed the desire to only heal. However, I'm skeptical that its worth sacrificing the majority of players' fun for their comfort.

As for homogenization, there's currently 6 healing specs, 6 tanking specs, and 24 DPS specs. I don't see how, when a game can keep 24 specs feeling distinct from each other in terms of playstyle, that that much harm would be done by dropping the 12 'support' archetypes into a less specialized role. I also think the game could focus on some other aspects which have been thus far heavily marginalized in the WoW metagame, for the sake of tightly tuning progression and preserving everyone's niche, namely: Control and Buffing/debuffing. There's these features flavoring various classes in WoW, but the boss fight paradigm insists that they must go by the wayside. A mage, in particular a frost mage, has some good control mechanics, as do rogues, and there used to be some reasonably interesting buff and debuff mechanics on several classes (curse of elements, thunderclap, scorpid sting) which have been homogenized off the map. All for the sake of preserving the sacrosanct tank/healer synergy as the one true way to vanquish loot-dropping foes.

I understand why the devs have stuck to the formula. It's comforting. Leaving it behind is risky, and there's a lot of money at stake. Abandoning it would risk having some plainly broken encounters. However, I honestly believe that breaking the 'support class' shackle from the game is going to make the MMO experience leaps and bounds more fun and accessible for everyone.

[Icewraith]

To be fair, what I'm proposing is a very severe paradigm shift from what WoW is, to the point where I'm not sure we're even playing the same game anymore, and it might very well put off many enthusiastic WoW players. In particular, I've heard from many healers who have expressed the desire to only heal. However, I'm skeptical that its worth sacrificing the majority of players' fun for their comfort.

As for homogenization, there's currently 6 healing specs, 6 tanking specs, and 24 DPS specs. I don't see how, when a game can keep 24 specs feeling distinct from each other in terms of playstyle, that that much harm would be done by dropping the 12 'support' archetypes into a less specialized role. I also think the game could focus on some other aspects which have been thus far heavily marginalized in the WoW metagame, for the sake of tightly tuning progression and preserving everyone's niche, namely: Control and Buffing/debuffing. There's these features flavoring various classes in WoW, but the boss fight paradigm insists that they must go by the wayside. A mage, in particular a frost mage, has some good control mechanics, as do rogues, and there used to be some reasonably interesting buff and debuff mechanics on several classes (curse of elements, thunderclap, scorpid sting) which have been homogenized off the map. All for the sake of preserving the sacrosanct tank/healer synergy as the one true way to vanquish loot-dropping foes.

I understand why the devs have stuck to the formula. It's comforting. Leaving it behind is risky, and there's a lot of money at stake. Abandoning it would risk having some plainly broken encounters. However, I honestly believe that breaking the 'support class' shackle from the game is going to make the MMO experience leaps and bounds more fun and accessible for everyone.

Except the people who just want to heal. No fun for them.

Also, Thunderclap was never an interesting debuff mechanic.

Look, even if you had generic classes and everything was accessible by talents, people would still self-sort into damage, tank, and support roles. You're going to have some person who has the attention of the boss in group content. That person is going to disproportionately take damage. Removing the core aggro mechanic from the game takes away a whole host of raid boss abilities because of the problems caused by the boss suddenly turning around and killing people. The person with the boss' attention can't be the person doing the most damage and doing the most healing, otherwise PVP would be a complete mess or there would be no talent differentiation, everyone would use the same best build. The group content boss has to be somehow more threatening than a normal single person content mob, otherwise what's the point? If the group content boss's position isn't controllable by the player, that's going to result in some very exploitable fight design, or every fight will be like Heigan the Unclean.

Hell, even in a game like diablo III, at the highest difficulties the current multi person metagame has players self sorting into dps and support builds.

"Control" and "Buffing/Debuffing" as boss fight concepts aren't really adding a lot. If you go full on D&D 3.5 buffing and control, other classes become second rate citizens. Alternatively, you've just removed "Tanking" and "Healing" and replaced them with equally critical raid roles that have to be filled for a viable group. Control style effects are super strong, and for bosses to be viable threats instead of just sitting there perma-stunned by the raid they're immune or have diminishing returns on CC. If you think of healing as a buff, threat as a control effect, and tank mitigation as a debuff to the boss' damage, the paradigm you're looking for already exists.

If you don't control the boss' position based on threat, does the boss randomly choose someone to pick on every fight? If you're going to completely eliminate the healing role then you need to get rid of all external defensive cooldowns, including heals on others, or make them all equivalent. Otherwise, the class with the best external cooldowns and healing puts them on the class with the most passive damage reduction, personal cooldowns, and personal healing and we're back to tanking and healing.

[ryuplaneswalker]

1: Get more gear. Yeah I know, obvious, and if you can't find a group in the first place, Catch-22. But seriously, if I'm only looking to fill two dps slots and I get six responses, unless I'm looking for specific raid utility the slots are going to the two people with the best gear. And because there are so many responses, I can afford to be picky.

I am in the top 20 of my spec on my server in terms of gearing, I literally outgear someone who is 7/7 and 2/3 Mythic. I have -one- piece of gear in heroic Emerald Nightmare that is an item level upgrade for me.

2: Find a buddy (that tanks or heals).

3: Find a buddy (with better gear than you).

A buddy that has the same specific nights off that I do that will change when mine do?

4: Tank. You should have a decent amount of artifact research by now, so even if your tank artifact has zero points in it, you should be able to get at least two of the golden traits unlocked pretty darn quick. If all you're after is normal EN, that's enough. Tanks leaving can kill a pug group you're already in, so even if you've got the tank set as a backup you can stop the raid from falling apart by switching specs

Yeah no, I am not after normal EN I am after Heroics and Higher, and that isn't even getting into the whole "Blood is trash mechanically and even worse trash to play as" thing.

5: Find a buddy (with complementary raid utility). You're a DK (with a Battle Rez), so find a mage or shaman or similar that can provide hero/lust etc. If the raid still needs one, but not the other, you'll both get in.

The number of raids that need a battle rez that don't already have one is fairly minuscule because 4 classes can have them, including ones that have other and better utility like Warlocks and Druids, it is actually somewhat laughable to call battle rez real utility compared to..well almost everything else.

6: Pug earlier in the raid week. Pugging on a Sunday or Monday night can be significantly worse than pugging on a Tuesday or Thursday. The later you are in the raid week, the more people already have boss kills and aren't interested in the content you're after. The population of potential tanks and healers to pull from is smaller and thus the chances of a successful raid forming go down. The one exception is fresh runs- people who are saved on their mains may be on alts while the group finder is full of people looking to pick off the last couple of bosses. You won't necessarily have the most geared players but people on alts will know the fights. During SoO I was pugging heavily and the two types of raids that went well on Sun/Mon nights were last boss only or fresh.

Because I control my nights off?

7: Be willing to kill bosses you have already killed in order to get to bosses you haven't. Be willing to miss a boss if it gets you other kills you didn't have before.

I am willing to kiss bosses I have killed before, I am not however really into killing the entire raid to get one try on one of the bosses I haven't killed before, including doing 3 bosses that drop nothing of value for me and are just miserable like Evil Tree.

8: Form your own raid group and lead the raid.

No thanks, I would rather just drink bleach.

In my experience, it works great. Any time I need a group for an elite world quest or world boss, I can get one within minutes.

When we were raiding and had a healer shortage (we haven't had much of a shortage this expansion), we could usually find a competent healer from the group finder queue with a few minutes of waiting. If we needed dps to cover our heals (if we only had 10 for archi for instance, we'd have a smoother ride if we pugged a healer and four mediocre dps because the fight is easier with more people), I could see the applicant's class and gear score.

Yes, it works acceptably well for groups looking for people. IT CAN STILL WORK BETTER.

Your problem, on the other hand, sounds like an economics issue.

You mean a problem they are aware of, and then proceeded to make a system for the pre-made group finder that doesn't do anything to make their quality of life better. When...AS I REPEAT THEY ALREADY HAD A SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT WORKED 100% FINE FOR THOSE PEOPLE, THAT THEY REMOVED FOR NO REASON INSTEAD OF FIXING THAT IT WAS BURIED UNDER 3 OTHER MENUS.

My Problem is that they took a system that worked FINE and threw it out for no reason, to replace it with a system that is worse for the people who get screwed by the system already instead of using the one THEY ALREADY HAD.

[otakuryoga]

To be fair, what I'm proposing is a very severe paradigm shift from what WoW is, to the point where I'm not sure we're even playing the same game anymore, and it might very well put off many enthusiastic WoW players. In particular, I've heard from many healers who have expressed the desire to only heal. However, I'm skeptical that its worth sacrificing the majority of players' fun for their comfort.

wow..when was the election that decided you speak for the majority of players?

Look, even if you had generic classes and everything was accessible by talents, people would still self-sort into damage, tank, and support roles. You're going to have some person who has the attention of the boss in group content. That person is going to disproportionately take damage. Removing the core aggro mechanic from the game takes away a whole host of raid boss abilities because of the problems caused by the boss suddenly turning around and killing people. The person with the boss' attention can't be the person doing the most damage and doing the most healing, otherwise PVP would be a complete mess or there would be no talent differentiation, everyone would use the same best build. The group content boss has to be somehow more threatening than a normal single person content mob, otherwise what's the point? If the group content boss's position isn't controllable by the player, that's going to result in some very exploitable fight design, or every fight will be like Heigan the Unclean.

Hell, even in a game like diablo III, at the highest difficulties the current multi person metagame has players self sorting into dps and support builds.

"Control" and "Buffing/Debuffing" as boss fight concepts aren't really adding a lot. If you go full on D&D 3.5 buffing and control, other classes become second rate citizens. Alternatively, you've just removed "Tanking" and "Healing" and replaced them with equally critical raid roles that have to be filled for a viable group. Control style effects are super strong, and for bosses to be viable threats instead of just sitting there perma-stunned by the raid they're immune or have diminishing returns on CC. If you think of healing as a buff, threat as a control effect, and tank mitigation as a debuff to the boss' damage, the paradigm you're looking for already exists.

If you don't control the boss' position based on threat, does the boss randomly choose someone to pick on every fight? If you're going to completely eliminate the healing role then you need to get rid of all external defensive cooldowns, including heals on others, or make them all equivalent. Otherwise, the class with the best external cooldowns and healing puts them on the class with the most passive damage reduction, personal cooldowns, and personal healing and we're back to tanking and healing.

^^ this ^^

-------------------------

if you have a system where everyone is equal and can do everything equally just in different ways how would a boss fight work?
he would have to pick a random target for every swing since there are no "tank" classes for him to concentrate on..or "healers" to keep someone alive that got focused
so he just hurts someone each swing w/o really being any threat because the next swing is likely to hit one of the other 20+ people

talk about a boring fight..you just sit there and run your rotation hoping the RNG doesnt have him swing at you 2-3 times in a row and he falls dead after a certain proscribed time
the biggest challenge would be staying awake through more than one of these fights

[Psyren]

Look, even if you had generic classes and everything was accessible by talents, people would still self-sort into damage, tank, and support roles. You're going to have some person who has the attention of the boss in group content. That person is going to disproportionately take damage. Removing the core aggro mechanic from the game takes away a whole host of raid boss abilities because of the problems caused by the boss suddenly turning around and killing people. The person with the boss' attention can't be the person doing the most damage and doing the most healing, otherwise PVP would be a complete mess or there would be no talent differentiation, everyone would use the same best build. The group content boss has to be somehow more threatening than a normal single person content mob, otherwise what's the point? If the group content boss's position isn't controllable by the player, that's going to result in some very exploitable fight design, or every fight will be like Heigan the Unclean.

Hell, even in a game like diablo III, at the highest difficulties the current multi person metagame has players self sorting into dps and support builds.

This is the crux of the issue. I actually agree with The_Jackal conceptually, I'd love to play an action-style MMO where you don't need roles like "healer." But the fact is that a team of specialists who can play to their strengths will always outperform a team of generalists who are decent at many things but not superior at any. Take a tank setup - if you don't tune the boss to where it can challenge a character who focuses on defense, then that character can simply spec to be insanely tanky and completely ignore the boss mechanics and affixes. But if you do tune the boss to that degree, then all the generalists get absolutely flattened and one-shot. And so, even in a role-agnostic game like Diablo, you find roles at the very highest levels of play.

You simply cannot challenge generalists / role-agnostic builds to the degree that you can challenge expected team compositions, at least not in a PvE game.

Rather than abolish roles, I would instead point to a game like Overwatch, that finds ways to make roles interesting. Mercy and Ana are dedicated healers, but they can do other things. Reinhardt is as classic a tank as they come, but you can end up getting most damage and most kills on him under the right circumstances too. That is the direction MMOs need to go in - adding real combat and real action while still preserving a role-based paradigm.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Rather than abolish roles, I would instead point to a game like Overwatch, that finds ways to make roles interesting. Mercy and Ana are dedicated healers, but they can do other things. Reinhardt is as classic a tank as they come, but you can end up getting most damage and most kills on him under the right circumstances too. That is the direction MMOs need to go in - adding real combat and real action while still preserving a role-based paradigm.

The thing is that that's difficult to do in non-PvP games. Overwatch works because your allies and enemies aren't predictable, so characters have a chance to get into situations where normally defensive characters can deal a lot of damage.

In MMO PvE, enemies have predictable patterns. Raids are less a showcase of reactive skill and strong positioning and more a complicated dance you have to know the moves to...you'd have to find a way to fix that to get the result you're looking for.

[Guancyto]

I always kinda wanted to see more of what the final boss does in the Iji game - the more you get hit by a particular attack pattern, the more he uses it because hey, obviously it was effective, right?

(You can exploit this by intentionally getting hit by attack patterns that you find easy to dodge, so he'll use them more, as well.)

I dunno if the WoW boss scripting allows for that kind of adaptive, dynamic battle, but I feel like it should be able to?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I always kinda wanted to see more of what the final boss does in the Iji game - the more you get hit by a particular attack pattern, the more he uses it because hey, obviously it was effective, right?

(You can exploit this by intentionally getting hit by attack patterns that you find easy to dodge, so he'll use them more, as well.)

I dunno if the WoW boss scripting allows for that kind of adaptive, dynamic battle, but I feel like it should be able to?

I mean, I'm SURE their scripting COULD allow for that, even if it currently doesn't. But that's not hugely effective -- I feel like Iji might have used that as a way to teach mechanics players found harder (an interesting design choice in its own right), but in a game like WoW with the mentality WoW has of optimizing raid time, all that really does is gives you a certain avoidable move you WANT to be hit by, which feels weird.

[Psyren]

The thing is that that's difficult to do in non-PvP games. Overwatch works because your allies and enemies aren't predictable, so characters have a chance to get into situations where normally defensive characters can deal a lot of damage.

During the Halloween Brawl (Junkenstein's Revenge), we got a taste of what PvE Overwatch would look like, and in my opinion, what the future of MMOs could look like too. Even a predictable foe can be overwhelming if the encounter is designed properly.

More important however is this: there too, we had nominal "Defense" and "Support" characters (Hanzo and Ana) that were nevertheless quite capable of carrying their teams, topping the kill and damage charts etc if you were skilled enough with them to do so. The potential at least is always there. Whereas in WoW, it's flat impossible for a tank or healer (even a Disc priest) to do this unless they are not only 1000% overgearing the content as a whole, but also the rest of the players in it, at which point said content is meaningless as far as challenge.

In MMO PvE, enemies have predictable patterns. Raids are less a showcase of reactive skill and strong positioning and more a complicated dance you have to know the moves to...you'd have to find a way to fix that to get the result you're looking for.

That is 100% the problem in my opinion. I don't play a game to have a specific dance beaten into me until I can execute the steps perfectly; I play a game to be given a toolbox, learn what all the tools in the toolbox are for, and then face a series of randomized or procedurally-generated challenges that force me to combine those tools in interesting ways, honing my skills in the process. When you're fighting an encounter so finely-tuned that it becomes a "dance", not only do you get punished for any mistakes you make, you get punished for the mistakes of the people around you too, which breeds exactly the kind of toxicity we see in MMOs today.

By contrast, when everybody but me dies during a boss fight in Diablo, or during an objective wave in Mass Effect, I bust out my sickest moves and hang in there until the end. That can happen in WoW too, don't get me wrong, but the fine tuning means that your ability to carry or compensate for errors on behalf of your team is sharply reduced.