WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

[The_Jackal]

Everyone is forgetting the true reason to bring back classic servers:

Barrens Chat.

Where is Mankrik's Wife? Chuck Norris!

Are you feeling nostalgic yet?

[Corvus]

Everyone is forgetting the true reason to bring back classic servers:

Barrens Chat.

Thanks.

I'd spent years doing my best to forget it existed. The horror...the horror.

That was another problem with classic - bad levelling design. Alliance had more regions and a lot more quests as a result to level up via.

Horde had the problem of it you were in Kalimdor (ie, playing as an Orc, Troll or Tauren) you had to go through The Barrens and it was massive and went on and on and on over far too many levels. Something like from level 10 to 35 you were stuck there. Barrens chat was the result of the boredom of that.

[Tyndmyr]

Where is Mankrik's Wife?

Ten thousand voices respond "Have you checked Mankrik's kitchen?"

Ahhh, nostalgia...

I don't disagree, but what flavor of nostalgia juice? That's the question.

It's a good one. The various reddit groups and blizz forums are all in a tizzy. That said, Blizzard has flat out said they won't include certain things that came later, like the looking for group tool. So...we know they're not doing that, at least. This doesn't clear things up a ton, as there's still a bunch of details that changed even throughout vanilla.

Most of those don't bother me overmuch, as I played all of Vanilla. A talent tree from a slightly different point in vanilla isn't gonna ruin the experience for me. That said, they are probably going to do some kind of content gating via patch release schedule. It looks like at least a couple of the Nost folks were consulted, and that's generally how private servers do it. Back-end server architecture and anti-cheat stuff will be modern, sounds like. Getting the old content to run on the newer architecture is precisely why it'll not be out for a bit, but it means we probably won't have to worry about log in queues, blinking through the world due to lag, etc.

Balance will probably not be perfect. Vanilla took a very different approach to balance than the current game does. Every class has a niche, and unique tools, but the idea that all classes, let along all class/specs ought to be equally useful in say, raiding...was just not a design principle at the time. So, regardless of what, exactly they pick, there'll certainly be the folks hating on certain classes. Fortunately, we can pick with foreknowledge, now, so if you really, really like pvp, but hate raiding, shadowpriest it is. Folks are probably less likely to be surprised by the results, or lack thereof, of a build.

That was another problem with classic - bad levelling design. Alliance had more regions and a lot more quests as a result to level up via.

Horde had the problem of it you were in Kalimdor (ie, playing as an Orc, Troll or Tauren) you had to go through The Barrens and it was massive and went on and on and on over far too many levels. Something like from level 10 to 35 you were stuck there. Barrens chat was the result of the boredom of that.

I've always thought that, yeah. Even if the total number of quests wasn't all that different, Alliance's quests and zones were generally better laid out. The barrens is quite large and a bit samey looking, being, well, barren. I don't think it's a coincidence that speedleveling runs are basically always night elf hunters. You simply get a better lineup of quests without long travel times through boring areas initially(and later on, everyone pretty much uses the same zones, so it mostly equalizes out at high levels).

Alliance is probably the more fun choice for vanilla as a result.

[Corvus]

I'm certainly conflicted about this expansion. I've tried to kick the wow habit before, only to keep getting dragged back by each new expansion.

This one may cure me of that. Blizz have now come out and said that the attack on Undercity happens after the burning of Teldrassil and that strikes me as really bad story telling.

Unless there is a major bait and switch going on, it is painting the Horde as the aggressor once more. We've just come out of that scenario and had the Horde have a civil war over it that has left them weak, divided and without much leadership left.

Meanwhile the Alliance is unified and strong and has plenty of leadership. while Andiun is young, inexperience and naive, the Alliance is behind him and he has advisors.

Of course two of those are near-genocidal hotheads, namely Jaina and Genn. A better story would be them instigating the war, not the Horde who, frankly, just don't have the strength for it and are trying to rebuild. For Jaina and Genn it would seem the perfect time to strike.

Basically, another Horde city is being attacked again. That makes UC twice now to go along with Orgrimmar. For a change it would be nice for the Horde to get to sack an Alliance city and even put down one of their dogs.

Unless something comes out to show that the Horde aren't being painted as the designated bad guy again, I think I'll end up passing on it.

[Psyren]

It's a good one.

I guess we'll see.

I've always thought that, yeah. Even if the total number of quests wasn't all that different, Alliance's quests and zones were generally better laid out. The barrens is quite large and a bit samey looking, being, well, barren. I don't think it's a coincidence that speedleveling runs are basically always night elf hunters. You simply get a better lineup of quests without long travel times through boring areas initially(and later on, everyone pretty much uses the same zones, so it mostly equalizes out at high levels).

Alliance is probably the more fun choice for vanilla as a result.

Yeah - and Undead isn't much better, given that you can turn a corner and get eaten by a 55 plague bear.

Of course two of those are near-genocidal hotheads, namely Jaina and Genn. A better story would be them instigating the war, not the Horde who, frankly, just don't have the strength for it and are trying to rebuild. For Jaina and Genn it would seem the perfect time to strike.

I agree, this would make a lot of sense.

Who burned Teldrassil though? That's the key question for me. "The Horde did it" isn't really an answer. Did Sylvanas order it? Seems like a very odd target for her to aim at. Did the rest of the Alliance show up and find an orc's sock and a broken arrow on the wreckage?

Also, Anduin in heavy armor just looks weird to me.

[Kish]

Unless something comes out to show that the Horde aren't being painted as the designated bad guy again, I think I'll end up passing on it.

Dear me, is there something in modern WoW worse than Barrens chat?

Seriously, this is the game you have now. The guy who swears to cleanse the world of the green-skinned aberrations is motivated by Lawful Good overdrive and is preparing to fight a purely defensive war against someone who isn't even in the area when he says it. A world of moral grays is not coming back--though, depending on what they do, perhaps you'll be able to go back to one, if you want. In the ongoing plotline, Alliance vs. Horde equals and will continue to equal "the Horde is evil."

So in a way, I want even the gameplay to indicate that Varian is fighting a very different kind of war than Garrosh, remembering what the Alliance is supposed to be about. This lawful good overdrive. We're supposed to be superheroes, you know? Have we lost our way a little bit with all this roughin' up? And I want players to feel that overdrive -- we're in it to make the world a better place.

[Psyren]

But Horde are ugly and therefore bad. I'm a good writer.

[Spore]

Honestly a burning world tree straight points towards the Blood Elves and reminds me of the Kirin Tor's philosophy of forbidden fire magic. A healthy huge tree is not as easily flammable. Either it is rotting (a motivation to burn it down before it corrupts the night elves) or extremely powerful fire magic (or goblin flame throwers) are used. But this is all speculation. Maybe a third party manipulates both factions into a greater conflict?

As for Anduin attacking Undercity. I played the Undead starting area. I understand the Forsaken motivations and if I was in their shoes I would probably aid their search for a way to repopulate to have more kinsmen who don't shun them for what they are. But on a neutral standpoint they are still forcefully murdering humans (and elves) and turning them undead. This cannot stand. Thus Anduin has a clear motivation - along with Sylvanas' supposed betrayal at the Broken Shore.

Of what we know of Sylvanas (if she is NOT plotting something bigevilnasty ort she is corrupted because many of her powers of the years look like they're inspired by the Old Ones or the Void) she is defending her homestead and trying to pull the Horde together.

[danzibr]

I started in BC (on Aerie Peak), and what’s funny is Barrens chat really is that bad.

[Psyren]

Maybe a third party manipulates both factions into a greater conflict?

That's what I'm getting at. Why would the Horde attack now, and even if they did, why Teldrassil of all places? I do feel that both sides are being manipulated, and that some raid tier or the following expansion will reveal the true culprit. Because whether this expansion does well or not, you're probably going to see a big pivot back to "unite against a common foe."

The last big "Faction v. Faction is the main theme, no archvillain" expansion we had was Pandaria. Garrosh was the supreme aggressor there, for bombing Theramore and wanting to subjugate Pandaria. Here... nobody really stands out (except Anduin, but they've deliberately muddied the waters around him) and it's suspicious.

As for Anduin attacking Undercity. I played the Undead starting area. I understand the Forsaken motivations and if I was in their shoes I would probably aid their search for a way to repopulate to have more kinsmen who don't shun them for what they are. But on a neutral standpoint they are still forcefully murdering humans (and elves) and turning them undead. This cannot stand. Thus Anduin has a clear motivation - along with Sylvanas' supposed betrayal at the Broken Shore.

Honestly, those humanoids are as good as dead anyway for inhabiting plaguey Lordaeron and not being Horde. I view it less as large-scale aggression that needs to be stopped by an outside invasion, and more as Sylvanas enforcing the laws of her sovereign queendom. It's no different in my eyes than if a bunch of human farmers moved into Durotar, or a bunch of Orc loggers went to Darkshore, or if a bunch of goblin sappers started mining in Dun Morogh - they'd be executed. All she's adding is the reanimation step. "Be undead or leave Lordaeron" is no less reasonable than any other faction's approach to interlopers.

[Draconi Redfir]

wasn't it stated once that Azeroth is only alive and intact now because of the constant war and conflict between it's natives (And respective organic golems, aliens, and risen corpses) made them stronger to the point where they could defeat some big foe (the titans i think?) that would otherwise have destroyed them?

maybe this is someone's attempt to ensure that keeps happeninbg.

[Corvus]

Seriously, this is the game you have now. The guy who swears to cleanse the world of the green-skinned aberrations is motivated by Lawful Good overdrive and is preparing to fight a purely defensive war against someone who isn't even in the area when he says it. A world of moral grays is not coming back--though, depending on what they do, perhaps you'll be able to go back to one, if you want. In the ongoing plotline, Alliance vs. Horde equals and will continue to equal "the Horde is evil."

The Horde aren't the bad guys - they haven't been since WC2. Sure, they may be a little more aggressive, a bit rough around the edges and wild, but they aren't overall evil. There may be elements in them that are evil but not even the Alliance is a pure as driven snow. And Metzen is gone so his views aren't the views of Bliz anymore. The point of the Horde Civil War was to get rid of the parts of the Horde that were reverting back to the old Horde.

The evil bad guys are the forces that they have been fighting, even while both sides continue to butt heads together, as a result of short sighted blindness on both parts. Heck, after WC3, the Horde just wanted to be left alone, which is why they chose Durator, not the most hospitable of places, to live. Problem was that element of the Alliance weren't content with that.

As to the burning of Teldrassil, it is obvious what happened.

The elves had an infestation, no doubt due to those stray mangy mutts and their rabid leader that they invited in an who jumped up on the furniture. In an attempt to deal with it, they accidentally burned their house down.

Given that most elf plans seem to almost always end up destroying the world, they got off lightly this time.

However, in an effort to not appear even more foolish than normal in front of the rest of the Alliance, they blame a convenient scapegoat - Sylvanas and the Horde.

Of course, this being the elves, that backfires as well and leads to total war again.

Elves - they really are the root cause of all troubles.

[Psyren]

The Horde aren't the bad guys - they haven't been since WC2. Sure, they may be a little more aggressive, a bit rough around the edges and wild, but they aren't overall evil. There may be elements in them that are evil but not even the Alliance is a pure as driven snow. And Metzen is gone so his views aren't the views of Bliz anymore. The point of the Horde Civil War was to get rid of the parts of the Horde that were reverting back to the old Horde.

I think you missed Kish's point - we know the Horde aren't evil, but the writing continually paints them as the aggressor, even when they didn't have the excuse of Genghis Garrosh being in charge.

As to the burning of Teldrassil, it is obvious what happened.

The elves had an infestation, no doubt due to those stray mangy mutts and their rabid leader that they invited in an who jumped up on the furniture. In an attempt to deal with it, they accidentally burned their house down.

Given that most elf plans seem to almost always end up destroying the world, they got off lightly this time.

However, in an effort to not appear even more foolish than normal in front of the rest of the Alliance, they blame a convenient scapegoat - Sylvanas and the Horde.

Of course, this being the elves, that backfires as well and leads to total war again.

Elves - they really are the root cause of all troubles.

I'm not a huge fan of Nelves either - but I am a big fan of Worgen, so lay off!

[Corvus]

I think you missed Kish's point - we know the Horde aren't evil, but the writing continually paints them as the aggressor, even when they didn't have the excuse of Genghis Garrosh being in charge.

Ah, okay, I think I misunderstood.

I'm not a huge fan of Nelves either - but I am a big fan of Worgen, so lay off!

:) I actually like the Worgen as well. I'm a bit of a werewolf fan in general so it was sad to see them go to the Alliance. Despite being Horde since, well, Warcraft 1 really, I did actually roll Alliance for the first time ever to play as one.

[Psyren]

Alliance needed a "bestial" race.

I'm just beyond pissed that they STILL can't be monks.

[Spore]

Slight detour but I am considering a main for the new expansion. If I were to tank or heal, I would not do it in raids. I have fun with my demon hunter but just in case I want a ranged DD or two to pick from. So I have been researching my first WoW character ever: the Warlock.

Reports vary from wildly unplayable to telling me Affliction is an AoE beast (the....dot spec? really??) to praising Destruction as a quite varied and good thought out thing to do world content and dungeons with ... to theoretic simulations placing Demonology quite high up.

Having played (and dropped) Warlocks in Cataclysm, I recognize the classes' history for being tampered with. hardcore. I dislike Demonology in its current horde summoning. However I see the build variety and the various extremely intriguing spells of affliction (the dot spec I wish Shadow Priests were as I loathe the Voidform mechanic) and the simplicity of Destruction (not saying you can't get higher numbers with skill but it always seems obvious what to cast next)

[Corvus]

I think I might have to avoid the classic forums for, well, ever. It is getting far too toxic in them, especially with the elitist element.

Worse, the most vocal seem to be utterly delusional, convinced that classic will destroy retail, that millions of players will flood in to classic, that retail will dwindle away and be abandoned and Blizz will shut it down as the failed experiment it was and return to looking after classic. No, seriously, that is what they believe.

It kinda also ignored the fact that WOW at its height was at the end of WOTLK, two expansions and many of the changes they so despise later.

[Psyren]

My prediction -

Classic WoW will get a huge influx at the start as a bunch of people (including games journalists, existing subscribers who do enjoy the modern content and are curious about vanilla, and true lapsed WoW players) sign up to take a look around. Many of those might even stick it out all the way to 60.

Once they hit the endgame and start having to farm their Dungeon sets and do, I dunno, Tribute runs and the like, this group will start cancelling.

The server will be left with a core community who truly do enjoy classic moreso than all the "improvements" over the years.

The question then will be - how many of the group that remains will have been cannibalized from the main game and (b) will the players who are left have sufficient numbers to justify keeping Vanilla running, especially months later when that insular community has seen all there is to see in Vanilla?

[Kish]

It kinda also ignored the fact that WOW at its height was at the end of WOTLK, two expansions and many of the changes they so despise later.

Was it? Huh. That's very interesting.

I don't think anything's going to kill (ongoing) WoW but ongoing WoW. The only way the non-classic servers will ever close, is if something makes it that they would close in the complete absence of classic, too. That is as true with Classic WoW potentially being a "competitor" as it was when the competitors were all other companies' morepigs.
For my part, if they actually come out with a server that accurately mimics WoW circa patch 1.12 (or 1.11, or 1.10, or...I could keep going for a while...), the only thing likely to pry me off of it, would be if they launched a "will permanently be fixed at a Burning Crusade patch" server. I do not currently have a subscription to WoW, so for me it's a difference of "will be a customer or won't," not "will play on ongoing WoW or on classic."

[gomipile]

The question then will be - how many of the group that remains will have been cannibalized from the main game and (b) will the players who are left have sufficient numbers to justify keeping Vanilla running, especially months later when that insular community has seen all there is to see in Vanilla?

I think they'll definitely have enough population to keep at least one Classic realm open for the foreseeable future of PC gaming. I think they'll probably have enough to keep an RP PvP, RP PvE, a couple regular PvP, and multiple regular PvE realms going for quite some time.

Granted, I think they'll almost certainly do some realm consolidation/connected realms, or something after a few years.

[Corvus]

Was it? Huh. That's very interesting.

Blizz used to put out subscription numbers. At the end of Classic they had around 7.5m subscribers. It continued to climb all the way through TBC and WOTLK until it hit around 12.5m.

It has slowly tended down ever since Cata, always picking back up again when a new expansion comes out. There was a real big return at the end of MOP when WOD started - around 2.5m returning subs, but that fell away rapidly and since then Blizz hasn't released any subscription numbers.

No one knows how many are still playing, but it is still healthy and in the millions. Possibly 4-5.

[Kish]

Thanks. That's pretty much exactly what I would have guessed.

[Psyren]

Was it? Huh. That's very interesting.

Yeah, Wrath was the game's undisputed peak. Cata's punishing difficulty and lack of raids began the decline, although speaking personally that was my favorite expansion.

I think they'll definitely have enough population to keep at least one Classic realm open for the foreseeable future of PC gaming. I think they'll probably have enough to keep an RP PvP, RP PvE, a couple regular PvP, and multiple regular PvE realms going for quite some time.

Granted, I think they'll almost certainly do some realm consolidation/connected realms, or something after a few years.

I would imagine at most one classic for each type (PvE, PvP, RP, RPPvP) - or at the very least, one CRZ cluster for each type. Part of the nostalgic vanilla experience will be heavily populated servers, and "Classic Servers opened and are already full to bursting!!" would be easy and cheap publicity from all the headlines it will inevitably generate. So don't expect a slew of different realms for this.

Of course, they might just bring in their current philosophy of "no PvP servers, it's all opt-in and you have to flag in the neutral areas or travel to faction areas" too.

[Kish]

Do I want to know what a CRZ cluster is?

[The_Jackal]

Do I want to know what a CRZ cluster is?

Yes. Cross-Realm Zone. This was the innovation which caused players in the same battlegroup to get pushed into the same zone if that zone was not very actively populated. Innocuous enough if you're on a PvE server, it's toxic in a PVP server, as it more or less guarantees if you're leveling a new character on a PVP server, you're going to be sharing the same zone with a griefer.

Yeah, Wrath was the game's undisputed peak. Cata's punishing difficulty and lack of raids began the decline, although speaking personally that was my favorite expansion.

I didn't hate Cata as much as most folks, but I'm definitely in the 'Wrath was better' camp. For one, I'm a huge Viking nerd, so all the Vrykul and snowbound zones was a joy to experience, and for another, the Arthas story arc was the culmination of plot threads that had been seeded all the way back in Warcraft III. I know that Deathwing is in their backstory somewhere, but Cata's story, for me, induced apocalypse fatigue. That's not to say that the content wasn't good, the dungeons, raids, and zones of Cata were really good, imo. However, what really pissed me off about Cata was the way they gutted the talent trees, a trend they've continually pursued to make sure that you aren't offered any choices, just in case you make the wrong one.

I would imagine at most one classic for each type (PvE, PvP, RP, RPPvP) - or at the very least, one CRZ cluster for each type. Part of the nostalgic vanilla experience will be heavily populated servers, and "Classic Servers opened and are already full to bursting!!" would be easy and cheap publicity from all the headlines it will inevitably generate. So don't expect a slew of different realms for this.

Of course, they might just bring in their current philosophy of "no PvP servers, it's all opt-in and you have to flag in the neutral areas or travel to faction areas" too.

I think if they include cross-realm zones, or indeed anything like battlegroups, they'll be gutting one of the most important aspects of early WoW: A local server community. My favorite thing about my early WoW days was getting to know everyone on Spirestone. You got to know people, you earned their trust, and you could get groups, make friends, and ultimately build a reputation.

[Kish]

Yeah, if they have any "Cross-Realm Zones," or dungeon queues, or any other form of "this will facilitate you doing group activities, with total strangers who have no need and probably no desire to interact with you as if you were a person rather than a bot!" that will wreck the concept.

[Psyren]

I think if they include cross-realm zones, or indeed anything like battlegroups, they'll be gutting one of the most important aspects of early WoW: A local server community. My favorite thing about my early WoW days was getting to know everyone on Spirestone. You got to know people, you earned their trust, and you could get groups, make friends, and ultimately build a reputation.

Yeah, if they have any "Cross-Realm Zones," that will wreck the concept.

I'm down for a local server community, but they probably won't want to do this with nearly as many servers as they had at launch either, across multiple time zones, with a bunch that are sparsely populated. Nostalrius put everyone in one place, and the folks in other time zones were willing to put up with a level of inconvenience from a fanmade (and questionably legal) project than I doubt they ever would from a first-party offering.

I didn't hate Cata as much as most folks, but I'm definitely in the 'Wrath was better' camp. For one, I'm a huge Viking nerd, so all the Vrykul and snowbound zones was a joy to experience, and for another, the Arthas story arc was the culmination of plot threads that had been seeded all the way back in Warcraft III. I know that Deathwing is in their backstory somewhere, but Cata's story, for me, induced apocalypse fatigue. That's not to say that the content wasn't good, the dungeons, raids, and zones of Cata were really good, imo. However, what really pissed me off about Cata was the way they gutted the talent trees, a trend they've continually pursued to make sure that you aren't offered any choices, just in case you make the wrong one.

I honestly agree, I probably would have enjoyed Wrath a lot better had I played it all the way through. I missed most of it due to quitting at the time, and when I came back to WoW in Cata, I had a brand-spanking new (at the time) gaming laptop that could finally run the damn thing above "powerpoint presentation," which is how I suffered through BC in college. So there's some level of rose-tint in my assessment, I'll freely admit. But I also did like the way the old world got revamped (which I always liked far more than Outland and Northrend) and the ability to fly and see some things I never got to see in my BC days.

[The_Jackal]

I honestly agree, I probably would have enjoyed Wrath a lot better had I played it all the way through. I missed most of it due to quitting at the time, and when I came back to WoW in Cata, I had a brand-spanking new (at the time) gaming laptop that could finally run the damn thing above "powerpoint presentation," which is how I suffered through BC in college. So there's some level of rose-tint in my assessment, I'll freely admit. But I also did like the way the old world got revamped (which I always liked far more than Outland and Northrend) and the ability to fly and see some things I never got to see in my BC days.

Oh, I liked the redesign of the world just fine. Getting flying in all areas was fantastic, and the new zones were stupendous. I really loved Azshara, I only wish they'd put in reasons to go back after you finished questing there. Deepholm was also a great standout, with good story and great visuals, and the addition of Scenarios was also, I thought, a good innovation, which I'm sorry they left behind. I feel like they should have kept Scenarios as the '3 man casual queue content' and put Heroics back to 'arranged team' content.

But even Wrath, which I loved, heralded the beginning of trends that, I feel, were destructive to the health and stability of the game. Chief among them was bifurcating the difficulty of raids. Rather than simply accept that raiding was natively to be a challenging exercise, both logistically and in terms of gameplay, they basically put in a multi-tiered raid system, and of course, added a queue later. This perversely destroyed the relevance of dungeons, which were, in Vanilla, BC, and Wrath, my favorite form of play, which accounts for part of the utter mediocrity of the dungeon experience in later WoW. Simply put, dungeons don't matter anymore. The other part of why modern WoW dungeons are terrible is that they're too small, designed to be run in 15 to 30 minutes. But by turning every dungeon into a mere 'boss alley', it robs the game of any sense of place. What I loved about Vanilla was how Blackrock Depths feels like an actual CITY, which stores and barracks and a prison and a bar. You didn't need to do the whole thing, you could plot your own course, and pick off the bosses you want. Same with Scarlet Monastery, or Razorfen Kraul, or Dire Maul. These places were massive, sprawling edifices to explore, and really made the game feel amazing, and when they all got reduced to a 15 minute loot sprint run by one Mythic geared Druid blowing up everything he glances at, the game just feels pointless.

[Sian]

Well, in other news, its been mentioned how it's believed (partially from datamining the PTR 7.3.5) that the leveling scaling introduced in Legion will be extended to all of the game.

1-10 Racial Zones
10-60 Classic Zones
60-80 BC and Wrath
80-90 Cata and Panda
90-100 WoD
100-110 Legion

[The Glyphstone]

I think they said at Blizzcon that the classic zones wouldn't scale completely from 10-60; the specific example was something like the Barrens being a 'low-mid' zone and Plaguelands being a 'mid-high' zone. So maybe brackets like 1-10,10-40, 40-60, etc.?