Non-D&D systems

[penguinreich]

Well I DM D&D campaigns and I can't help but think if there's something better out there. So I'm jut wondering if any of you attractive and talented people know of any other good game systems. I'm mainly looking for something less about numbers and more about role playing and character building. So if you know of a cool system that's not main stream, or you know of where i could browse the GURPS rule book I'd appreciate it. Even D20 rules variations.

[Kurald Galain]

d20 rules variations are by definition as much about numbers as D&D; GURPS is arguably moreso, although it is less min-maxy.

If you want more flavor-based systems, the obvious choice is White Wolf's World of Darkness books. Vampire, Werewolf, Changeling, Hunter, et cetera.

Some other interesting suggestions are Over the Edge, Amber Diceless, Cyperbunk 2020, and the old Call of Ctulhu system.

[....]

Shadowrun is a dicepool system like WW.

There was a Marvel superhero game where you played with cards.

LARPS don't use dice much.

And, eh, RIFTS, I suppose... maybe old Palladium systems for things like TMNT and Robotech.

[Kiero]

Alright, so you want less numbers, how far in that direction are you willing to go? What are you looking for in a new system that D20 specifically doesn't do? What do you expect a new system to do that D20 does?

Do you want something without classes or levels, or just without one or the other? How do you feel about freeform traits?

For example if you just want a smoother D20 experience, there's True20, which cuts the number of classes to three, reduces the Skill list to under twenty, culls a load of Feats (mostly by removing AoO-related stuff), and changes hit points for a damage save mechanic.

Another D20 variant is Mutants and Masterminds, a supers game without classes and with a different take on levels. Conan D20 changes a few bits here and there on the standard D&D model. Castles and Crusades is a simplification of AD&D1e which runs a lot faster than D&D, though people might complain that it lacks the means to differentiate characters mechanically.

GURPS I'd argue is about as crunchy as D&D; or at least it is with all the options switched on. Similarly with HERO.

There's the "new" World of Darkness games, though you need a corebook and one other at least if you don't want to play ghost-hunters. Simpler than D&D, uses dice pools for most stuff. No levels, though you could argue the 5x5 structure they use are effectively "classes".

The Unisystem is also lighter than D&D, though how much lighter depends on the variant. Standard/Classic Uni (for which Witchcraft is free) has a few multiplication bits, and a fair few stats to keep track of. Cinematic Unisystem (as per Buffy, Angel and Army of Darkness) is much lighter, with few die-rolls and a consolidated skills list.

I could go much lighter than any of those with a bunch of free rules-light games, Wushu, Risus, The Pool, There Is No Spoon and InSpectres. Let me know if you want to know more about any of them, or check them out on Wikipedia.

Really though, I need to know more about what you're trying to get that's different from, and consistent with your D&D experience to give a useful recommendation. The above are just a few off the top of my head.

[TheThan]

There’s the tri stat system, which includes silver age sentinels and BESM.

If your looking for D20 games there D20 modern, starwars saga edition (revised is good too), mutants and masterminds and probably a few more I’m forgetting.

[HidaTsuzua]

While you said you don't like something as much about the numbers, I would heavily recommend the Hero System. It can be big and intimidating at first, but it's actually quite liberating. Extremely customizable, you can make characters as you want them to be and do what you want them to do without worrying about all sorts of artificial restrictions other systems are opt to have. What to be able to do X? Build a power and its SFX (the fluff). Have fluff? Build a power for it. It allows great flexibility in characters. I was in a low-powered low fantasy group where nearly everyone was playing some sort of fighter type. However everyone had their own style due their powers and were on average equal.

[Yakk]

www.epicrpg.com is a D&D-esque game that isn't as feat-combo-happy as D&D.

http://www.gregstolze.com/reign/index.html is a fantasy game that uses abstract dice pools, with mechanics for your players to be backed by a company (be it a kingdom, a merchant house, or a mercenary troop).

[RamrodTheWizard]

Castles and Crusades seems to be right up you're alley.

Basically it is a re-imagining of old-school DnD and focuses much more of role-playing then number-crunching. Its supported, but not developed by Gary Gygax, the father of the genre. It's considered a "rules-light" system and its central mechanic, the SIEGE engine, can be used to replicate anything you would like to do. The central idea of the system isn't that you can or cannot do something, it means you can try at varying levels of ease. The lack of feats/skills might miff some, but it compensates very very well. The system caters less to the superhero mentality of 3rd edition and focuses on who the heroes are and that they are not the best at everything.

http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/index.html

[Rachel Lorelei]

I discovered Spirit of the Century via someone mentioning it on here. It's absolutely awesome! A blast to play--character creation for Spirit is more fun than decent actual play I've had. This is the SRD for it. It's a fun pulp game that's very good at what it does.

[Kurald Galain]

I discovered Spirit of the Century via someone mentioning it on here.

Hm, that sounds familiar... it's an instance of the older freeform RPG FUDGE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fudge_(role-playing_game)

[Rob Knotts]

So if you know of a cool system that's not main stream, or you know of where i could browse the GURPS rule book I'd appreciate it. Even D20 rules variations.

SJ Games offers a free PDF download of "GURPS Lite", a stripped-down introductory version of the GURPS system: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/

[penguinreich]

You guys are peaches, do you know that?

[DeathQuaker]

While you said you don't like something as much about the numbers, I would heavily recommend the Hero System. It can be big and intimidating at first, but it's actually quite liberating.

If the OP is looking for an RPG with "fewer numbers" than Hero is about the LAST system I would recommend.

Don't get me wrong--you're dead on about its flexibility--you can really make the system do anything you want. But that flexibility comes at the cost of a buttload of calculations... I remember playing a Champions game where character creation took 6 hours, and another one where I watched a Physics PhD student, an Engineering PhD student, and a PhD Associate Professor in Mathematics argue about a mechanical calculation. I do not exaggerate.

[Nevar]

Any system is going to eventually be about numbers especialy if your players are munchkins. D20 systems try to be less numbers but still hurt the roleplaying IMO. I have generaly found that a more detailed system allows for more roleplaying at least in my experiance. However that may not hold true. I have also found that other games that are ment to be based arround roleplaying also tend to allow players to truly 'powergame' IE White Wolf and Palladium. The systems I have enjoyed a lot of roleplaying are

Rolemaster - Very Rule intensive long character generation and typicaly hard to prepare for a DM
HARP - A watered down version of Rolemaster
Warhammer Fantasy - Based in the warhammer universe

There are more but I just can't think of the names of the games ATM.

[mudbunny]

RolemasterTablemaster - Very Rule intensive long character generation and typicaly hard to prepare for a DM

I fixed your post for you.

[Nevar]

I fixed your post for you.

Lol yea but I'm wierd, I love charts and tables.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, if you want more rules than D&D, nothing beats Hackmaster.

[Prometheus]

Alternatively, you can always play D&D with a different emphasis. Games like Baulder's Gate and Neverwinter Nights are completely based on D&D rules, and as computer games have to be codified, but have many quests that are based on dialogue and many aspects that are more oriented on description and plot than the results of number crunching which brings a unique appeal. Even more than incorporating non-combat quests and description into your game, good roleplaying from the players can really change the way you think about the game. Whenever you can substitute a rough figure for a die roll, such as in treasure, feel free to do so.
Of course, I've found everything I ever wanted in D&D, so I can't really speak about how other systems compare.

[horseboy]

Rolemaster - Very Rule intensive long character generation and typicaly hard to prepare for a DM

MMmmm. Rulesmonster! Love that game. One of the very few where you can take 5' of sharp steel, shove it through somebody's chest and they die, regardless of level. Works better if you can find someone to run it for you the first few times so you can get the hang of the system.

If you want something in the fantasy genre I'd recommend Earthdawn. It's got so much metastory you can spread it on toast and enjoy every succulent bite. It features a "reverse leveling" system where you spend XP (or as they call it Legend Points) to build up skills and talents. When your talents are high enough you prove your competency to a master and he instructs you further into your discipline (class). Any skill is open to anyone who wants to learn it.

Harn, another fun, but fairly high crunch. Not for the less competent gamer. (You know, the guy that just shows up to roll dice). The setting is sold separately from the core rules so you can use one or the other, but they go very well together.

Shadowrun is a lot of fun. However it is currently in the hands of heretics, so find the good edition (2nd) can be difficult. It's completely a classless/ leveless game system with lots of back story.

Is Traveler still being made? That has one of the best space settings ever. There's three human races and 5 alien races(some of them are pretty out there, some are pretty close to home). They take great pride in making E=mc^2 (can't find superscript). Character generation is very simple, so is game play. It's all 2d6. The only problem I've had with it was it seems to have been developed for "one off" play. It's character development rules after play start are an afterthought.

Hmmm, I know there's several more, but I just can't think of them right now. If I remember one I'll let you know.

[Kiero]

Hm, that sounds familiar... it's an instance of the older freeform RPG FUDGE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fudge_(role-playing_game)

Actually, it's version 3.0 of FATE, rather than Fudge. FATE is completely free, by the way, though it does require some "assembly".

Any system is going to eventually be about numbers especialy if your players are munchkins. D20 systems try to be less numbers but still hurt the roleplaying IMO. I have generaly found that a more detailed system allows for more roleplaying at least in my experiance. However that may not hold true. I have also found that other games that are ment to be based arround roleplaying also tend to allow players to truly 'powergame' IE White Wolf and Palladium. The systems I have enjoyed a lot of roleplaying are

I defy anyone to "munchkin" Risus or Wushu or The Pool.

You guys are peaches, do you know that?

Are any of these useful or in the right direction?

[Tengu]

Fading Suns! Characters start rather strong but grow at a slow rate, the rules are very versatile and allow to create a whole lot of various, completely different characters, and the setting is simply awesome - Dune meets Firefly meets Generic But Well-Made Fantasy.

[Morgan_Scott82]

The rules for the Serenity RPG based on the film of the same name and the Firefly TV series is light in the rules department, and could be adapted to other settings with a modicum of work

[horseboy]

Fading Suns! Characters start rather strong but grow at a slow rate, the rules are very versatile and allow to create a whole lot of various, completely different characters, and the setting is simply awesome - Dune meets Firefly meets Generic But Well-Made Fantasy.

I haven't played that yet, but saw where Redbrick got their license. Was curious about it. Let me know if they do it justice.

[WhiteHarness]

GURPS, Riddle of Steel, and Burning Wheel are the best.

[goat]

The rules for the Serenity RPG based on the film of the same name and the Firefly TV series is light in the rules department, and could be adapted to other settings with a modicum of work

I thought basic consensus about that was that the rules were rather more "unfinished" than "light".

[Kiero]

The rules for the Serenity RPG based on the film of the same name and the Firefly TV series is light in the rules department, and could be adapted to other settings with a modicum of work

Can't get it any more, due to legal issues, but the Unisystem/Firefly web-book was the best one I saw. Easily kit-bashed up with a copy of Angel anyway. Since there's no space combat to worry about.

[Ceres]

Actually, it's version 3.0 of FATE, rather than Fudge. FATE is completely free, by the way, though it does require some "assembly".

FUDGE is also free in fact. You can download it here (link to the .pdf is on the right)

FUDGE is very rp heavy, does not require you to do any number-crunching at all, and is very intuitive. For instance, instead of having a climb-roll of "23", as in D&D and many other systems, your result could be "Fair" or "Great".

Some assembly is required, though. The rulebook is more like an explanation of the basics, as well as giving examples to how you might want to design your system. If you do not shy away from a little homebrewing, then I highly recommend it. Check out the .pdf. It's free

[Dareon]

Well, if you want more rules than D&D, nothing beats Hackmaster.

Not even FATAL?

[Xuincherguixe]

I also feel the need to push Shadowrun. I've got some good memories with that game :P If stereotypes get annoying, then this is the game to get.

"Oh, you're an elf. You must love nature!"
"...Why do I have to keep telling you people this? I'm an oil executive! I'm wearing an I love oil T-Shirt!"
"... But you're still a Tree Hugger Right?"
"Security. Please make this guy disappear."
*security comes, shoots elf because they think he's an activist*

[Raum]

Well I DM D&D campaigns and I can't help but think if there's something better out there. So I'm jut wondering if any of you attractive and talented people know of any other good game systems. I'm mainly looking for something less about numbers and more about role playing and character building. So if you know of a cool system that's not main stream, or you know of where i could browse the GURPS rule book I'd appreciate it. Even D20 rules variations.

As others asked, what are you looking for in a system? Are you looking only for a mechanical system or also for a setting?

If you just want a system light on the rules, I'd suggest Over the Edge. For an over the top game of demigods, Exalted. If you're looking for a heavy emphasis on storytelling, Wushu. Shadowrun is a good cyberpunk / fantasy game with a detailed skill based system if you just want to get away from a level based system, though none of the others I mentioned above are level based either.

On the other hand, True20 is a decent lite version of d20, Arcana Evolved is fairly balanced (though not completely) d20, and Iron Heroes is a low or no magic d20.

I'd recommend deciding what you're looking for in a game and then googling for reviews.