Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

[Duecej2]

Thank you that's awesome. Also if I wanted to make a religious barbarian using either barbarian/paladin, barbarian/cleric, or both. What would you say is the best way to make a barbarian zealot of Tempus? My stats after racial bonus are 17, 16, 15, 10, 13, 15.

[PeteNutButter]

Thank you that's awesome. Also if I wanted to make a religious barbarian using either barbarian/paladin, barbarian/cleric, or both. What would you say is the best way to make a barbarian zealot of Tempus? My stats after racial bonus are 17, 16, 15, 10, 13, 15.

Paladin or cleric are two very different builds when combined with barbarian. Optimally, I'd say you'd just dip cleric, but the paladin would dip barbarian. The paladin probably ends up better in the long run, but the cleric dip might have more support.

Cleric Build
Barbarian 5+/Cleric 3-4
The key here is that spells and rage aren't compatible. Best use of this combination is to use non-concentration spells. Warding Bond is a fantastic way to keep the team alive. Spiritual Weapon is nice, but too clunky to really help in anything but a really long fight (bonus action to cast and use, rage is also a bonus action). The last thing worth noting is several channel divinity options are quite strong and are all usuable while raging. Really no reason to take cleric much after 2nd level spells, unless you plan on not raging in fights.

Paladin Build
Paladin 6-7+/Barbarian 1-4

This is simple and straightforward. With your stats the slight MADness isn't an issue. Rage and use your spell slots to smite. If you go ancients paladin you get most of the benefits of bear totem barbarian, but can still go with a different barb subclass. The main reason to go heavy on paladin is the +cha to saves. You can stay in Paladin as long as you want, or dip into a third class for more spell slots to smite with. This can easily can be one of the tankiest builds with amazing saves, good AC, and damage resistance. Alternatively, you can go for big damage and use reckless attack with GWM and/or PAM.

[paladinn]

Paladin or cleric are two very different builds when combined with barbarian. Optimally, I'd say you'd just dip cleric, but the paladin would dip barbarian. The paladin probably ends up better in the long run, but the cleric dip might have more support.

Cleric Build
Barbarian 5+/Cleric 3-4
The key here is that spells and rage aren't compatible. Best use of this combination is to use non-concentration spells. Warding Bond is a fantastic way to keep the team alive. Spiritual Weapon is nice, but too clunky to really help in anything but a really long fight (bonus action to cast and use, rage is also a bonus action). The last thing worth noting is several channel divinity options are quite strong and are all usuable while raging. Really no reason to take cleric much after 2nd level spells, unless you plan on not raging in fights.

Paladin Build
Paladin 6-7+/Barbarian 1-4

This is simple and straightforward. With your stats the slight MADness isn't an issue. Rage and use your spell slots to smite. If you go ancients paladin you get most of the benefits of bear totem barbarian, but can still go with a different barb subclass. The main reason to go heavy on paladin is the +cha to saves. You can stay in Paladin as long as you want, or dip into a third class for more spell slots to smite with. This can easily can be one of the tankiest builds with amazing saves, good AC, and damage resistance. Alternatively, you can go for big damage and use reckless attack with GWM and/or PAM.

You can rage and smite simultaneously? Why does that seem weird to me? Is that RAW or RAI?

Rage is focused anger, but a smite would be focused faith and channeling.. well, whatever a paladin serves. They just seem like they'd be mutually exclusive. Except maybe for a zealot.

[Darc_Vader]

You can rage and smite simultaneously? Why does that seem weird to me? Is that RAW or RAI?

Rage is focused anger, but a smite would be focused faith and channeling.. well, whatever a paladin serves. They just seem like they'd be mutually exclusive. Except maybe for a zealot.

You can indeed. The only (relevant to the discussion) limitation from Rage is you can’t cast/concentrate on a spell while raging; and Smite, despite using spell slots, isn’t actually a spell. Rage Smiting is both RAW and RAI.

[gkathellar]

Rage is focused anger, but a smite would be focused faith and channeling.. well, whatever a paladin serves. They just seem like they'd be mutually exclusive. Except maybe for a zealot.

Righteous fury seems pretty straightforward as a barbarian/paladin's MO.

[Duecej2]

Paladin or cleric are two very different builds when combined with barbarian. Optimally, I'd say you'd just dip cleric, but the paladin would dip barbarian. The paladin probably ends up better in the long run, but the cleric dip might have more support.

Cleric Build
Barbarian 5+/Cleric 3-4
The key here is that spells and rage aren't compatible. Best use of this combination is to use non-concentration spells. Warding Bond is a fantastic way to keep the team alive. Spiritual Weapon is nice, but too clunky to really help in anything but a really long fight (bonus action to cast and use, rage is also a bonus action). The last thing worth noting is several channel divinity options are quite strong and are all usuable while raging. Really no reason to take cleric much after 2nd level spells, unless you plan on not raging in fights.

Paladin Build
Paladin 6-7+/Barbarian 1-4

This is simple and straightforward. With your stats the slight MADness isn't an issue. Rage and use your spell slots to smite. If you go ancients paladin you get most of the benefits of bear totem barbarian, but can still go with a different barb subclass. The main reason to go heavy on paladin is the +cha to saves. You can stay in Paladin as long as you want, or dip into a third class for more spell slots to smite with. This can easily can be one of the tankiest builds with amazing saves, good AC, and damage resistance. Alternatively, you can go for big damage and use reckless attack with GWM and/or PAM.

I like the paladin route but I ended up only take a 2 level dip in it for the fighting style and then 5 levels of warlock for Eldritch smite and the rest in barbarian. Do you think that works out for a zealot barbarian?

[PeteNutButter]

I like the paladin route but I ended up only take a 2 level dip in it for the fighting style and then 5 levels of warlock for Eldritch smite and the rest in barbarian. Do you think that works out for a zealot barbarian?

Yeah, the only big thing you're missing is +cha to saves. You won't have a ton of slots to smite with, but it works.

[Karnitis]

I apologize if this has been asked before in this thread but:

are there any intentions to add Artificer on here? I realize it's UA so maybe not, but I'd love to get your opinions on it (I also acknowledge there is a perfectly good Artificer guide out there).

[PeteNutButter]

I apologize if this has been asked before in this thread but:

are there any intentions to add Artificer on here? I realize it's UA so maybe not, but I'd love to get your opinions on it (I also acknowledge there is a perfectly good Artificer guide out there).

Sadly, no. I have a number of reasons for avoiding UA content. UA is generally not well balanced for multiclassing (or at all in some cases), which makes a guide on multiclassing it a bit silly.

The other main reason is the breadth of changes that content usually sees when it goes into published realm. The amount of work it'd take to add a 13th class would be no small undertaking. I'd hate to have to double work, and redo much of it whenever they finally publish the content. I'll have to wait and bite that bullet once they put it in print. Should be fun though.

[ZaneOlric]

Welp, there are a million posts so this might have been said, but there’s a good way to reduce Paladin/Cleric or Cleric/Paladin MADness.

Go Nature Cleric and pick Shillelagh as your Druid Cantrip, meaning you can use your wisdom as your attack stat. With a Str of 13 you can multi class and still wear Chainmail armor. Then just max Wis and Cha. Helps if they want a dip 5/6 Lv into Paladin for extra attack.

Not a perfect combo that will shoot it up to gold or anything, but a decent build I’ve personally enjoyed. Wield a Quarterstaff with a shield for a pretty great character.

[paladinn]

Welp, there are a million posts so this might have been said, but there’s a good way to reduce Paladin/Cleric or Cleric/Paladin MADness.

Go Nature Cleric and pick Shillelagh as your Druid Cantrip, meaning you can use your wisdom as your attack stat. With a Str of 13 you can multi class and still wear Chainmail armor. Then just max Wis and Cha. Helps if they want a dip 5/6 Lv into Paladin for extra attack.

Not a perfect combo that will shoot it up to gold or anything, but a decent build I’ve personally enjoyed. Wield a Quarterstaff with a shield for a pretty great character.

Using Shillelagh, you're kind of stuck with using the shillelagh to use Wisdom as your attack stat. It's not a bad idea, but paladins can normally use most anything, and there are better weapon choices. But they would have to use Str (or Cha if you dip Hexblade).

[PeteNutButter]

Welp, there are a million posts so this might have been said, but there’s a good way to reduce Paladin/Cleric or Cleric/Paladin MADness.

Go Nature Cleric and pick Shillelagh as your Druid Cantrip, meaning you can use your wisdom as your attack stat. With a Str of 13 you can multi class and still wear Chainmail armor. Then just max Wis and Cha. Helps if they want a dip 5/6 Lv into Paladin for extra attack.

Not a perfect combo that will shoot it up to gold or anything, but a decent build I’ve personally enjoyed. Wield a Quarterstaff with a shield for a pretty great character.

If you really wanted a shillelagh paladin/cleric, I'd recommend Hill Dwarf so you can wear plate still without issue, but I don't know how much it's worth it to go through all those hoops. You need both a 13 str and a 13 wisdom. You can dump either to 13 and raise the other. The shillelagh strategy, would probably only help with a very heavy cleric build where you would suffer from a low wisdom, intending to use things with DCs.

Using Shillelagh, you're kind of stuck with using the shillelagh to use Wisdom as your attack stat. It's not a bad idea, but paladins can normally use most anything, and there are better weapon choices. But they would have to use Str (or Cha if you dip Hexblade).

This is a big factor. In my experience magic weapons come up and are only sometimes tailored to the group. If you can find/buy what you want, a magic staff with PAM is decent. That bonus action tax hurts even worse though, when you have access to a PAM attack.

[ZaneOlric]

If you really wanted a shillelagh paladin/cleric, I'd recommend Hill Dwarf so you can wear plate still without issue, but I don't know how much it's worth it to go through all those hoops. You need both a 13 str and a 13 wisdom. You can dump either to 13 and raise the other. The shillelagh strategy, would probably only help with a very heavy cleric build where you would suffer from a low wisdom, intending to use things with DCs.

The exact Build I designed was a Half Elf, Nature Cleric 9/Devotion Paladin 11.
Cleric 4+/Paladin 5 could be a bit more generalized and less niche of a build.
Str 13, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 16

The Max AC is dropped by two, but considering that means your only hit 10% more often that isn't the absolute worst sacrifice one could make, especially considering one can still wield a shield.
Shillelagh lets the character cast spells still (a wooden staff can be used as a quarterstaff while the shield can have a holy symbol) and have decent melee power for divine smiting. Also, Shillelagh can be used on magic weapons, something like a Staff of Withering or Staff of Striking, which is pretty powerful.

It's not a totally optimized build, but being able to do 5d8 damage without spell slots isn't too shabby for a pretty powerful spell caster. The damge could go up to 15d8 if both attacks are smited. Considering Oath of Devotion can give quite the accuracy steroid, its not crazy to assume thats possible.

[PeteNutButter]

The exact Build I designed was a Half Elf, Nature Cleric 9/Devotion Paladin 11.
Cleric 4+/Paladin 5 could be a bit more generalized and less niche of a build.
Str 13, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 16

The Max AC is dropped by two, but considering that means your only hit 10% more often that isn't the absolute worst sacrifice one could make, especially considering one can still wield a shield.
Shillelagh lets the character cast spells still (a wooden staff can be used as a quarterstaff while the shield can have a holy symbol) and have decent melee power for divine smiting. Also, Shillelagh can be used on magic weapons, something like a Staff of Withering or Staff of Striking, which is pretty powerful.

It's not a totally optimized build, but being able to do 5d8 damage without spell slots isn't too shabby for a pretty powerful spell caster. The damge could go up to 15d8 if both attacks are smited. Considering Oath of Devotion can give quite the accuracy steroid, its not crazy to assume thats possible.

Seems fun. Personally, I'd probably just wear the best armor I could and deal with the 20 foot movement/use a mount when possible. Not to nitpick, but having 2 more points of AC isn't really just getting hit 10% less, relatively speaking. If a foe has to roll a 19-20 to hit you and you drop 2 AC, you've effectively doubled your chance to be hit as they go from 10% to 20%, meaning you'll be taking nearly double damage against this particular foe (not quite double due to the crit damage). Even in a more likely case where the foe has to roll a 15+ to hit you, dropping that to 13+ makes you die roughly 40% faster (again not quite due to crit damage).

Either way you'll be fine with all that healing access. That's just my 2 cp.

[ZaneOlric]

having 2 more points of AC isn't really just getting hit 10% less, relatively speaking. If a foe has to roll a 19-20 to hit you and you drop 2 AC, you've effectively doubled your chance to be hit as they go from 10% to 20%, meaning you'll be taking nearly double damage against this particular foe. Even in a more likely case where the foe has to roll a 15+ to hit you, dropping that to 13+ makes you die roughly 40% faster (again not quite due to crit damage).

Either way you'll be fine with all that healing access. That's just my 2 cp.

Solid point. Hadn't really viewed it in that light before. I guess 10 feet of movement isn't the biggest issue in the world, though I'd have to play a couple of sessions to get a feel for it. I appreciate the feedback! That is a very valuable 2 cp, Far more than i ever get with it in game haha!

[nartana]

Hey there! I was hoping maybe someone could help me out with one of the builds presented in a little more detail. I'm kind of a newer player to DND and especially to multiclass, never done it before. But I was interested in the Bard Swords 6+/Paladin 2-4 multiclass and I guess I had some questions.

So Human Variant start but I'm unsure of the feat to take, I would say War Caster but I'm not allowed to take that level one if I start a paladin.

Is it as simple as just take the first two levels in paladin and then the rest in the college of swords bard?

What fighting styles should I be going for? The Swords bard only allows for TWF and Dueling, so I imagine one of those playstyles. But then again, if I do that I can't cast somatic spells with sword (or whatever weapon I should be using) and shield in hand.

Also you mention if doing sword and shield then a hexblade dip is good but can I go without? I'm not sure I can convince my DM for story reasons why I would gain a pact.

So yeah sorry if this was a lot of questions, I'm just totally lost. Thanks for taking the time to read this if you do and I look forward to hearing back.

[PeteNutButter]

Hey there! I was hoping maybe someone could help me out with one of the builds presented in a little more detail. I'm kind of a newer player to DND and especially to multiclass, never done it before. But I was interested in the Bard Swords 6+/Paladin 2-4 multiclass and I guess I had some questions.

So Human Variant start but I'm unsure of the feat to take, I would say War Caster but I'm not allowed to take that level one if I start a paladin.

Is it as simple as just take the first two levels in paladin and then the rest in the college of swords bard?

What fighting styles should I be going for? The Swords bard only allows for TWF and Dueling, so I imagine one of those playstyles. But then again, if I do that I can't cast somatic spells with sword (or whatever weapon I should be using) and shield in hand.

Also you mention if doing sword and shield then a hexblade dip is good but can I go without? I'm not sure I can convince my DM for story reasons why I would gain a pact.

So yeah sorry if this was a lot of questions, I'm just totally lost. Thanks for taking the time to read this if you do and I look forward to hearing back.

If you want to TWF, take dual wielder, its a fine feat for a vhuman. If you want to do dueling, take PAM and use a spear & shield. (In case you didn't know, spear is in the errata to count with polearm master.

As for the war caster, swords bard solves most of your problems with allowing you to use weapons as a spellcasting focus, though war caster is still a strong feat especially if you want to pick up Haste.

Start paladin for heavy armor. You might want to delay paladin 2 until after extra attack, but smite is really good. Up to you. PAM or TWF make it not hurt so bad to be behind on extra attack. That's pretty much it though.

Pick up defense FS from paladin for that +1 AC. Bard gives you whichever you prefer. Dueling with PAM is basically exclusively better, provided your DM doesn't hand out random magic weapons (because you will be depending on a staff or spear only).

On hexblade, it's a good dip. It depends a bit on your stat generation. If you are rolling for stats and end up with high stats as people tend to do, it's not really as helpful. It amounts to be +2 to hit and damage if you end up with 16 str and 20 cha. (Or its +2 all spell stuffs). That's super strong for 1 level dip, but the build will do absolutely fine without that. You don't have to hamfist it into your build just because it's mechanically strong. You'll have smites and flourishes and all kinds of goodies. If you do want to grab it, it won't be until level 9 after Pal 2/Bard 6. You can't afford to delay extra attack any further.

[Thulsa-D00M]

I've used this guide to help me with two different barb multiclasses, and I wanted to offer my take on the Warlock Barb.

The guide offers a Fiend Pact as an example build, which is mechanically nice with the extra HP, and thematically fun, what with a demonic rage and all. But if you're really hoping to make the most out of Armor Agathy's and rage, I'd suggest the Fey Patron.


Mechanically, Misty Escape pairs well with Armor Agathy's and rage. AA is great with rage, but it's vulnerable to ranged attacks. Misty escape seems designed as a defensive tool, to get squishy Warlocks out of harms way, but I've had success using it offensively, to bring my raging frost beast closer to those pesky archers.

Thematically, Totem barbarian pairs well with Archfey. You have a compact with the spirits of nature's ferocity, and the character can feel like a Shamanic Spirit Caller.

I'll just say what everyone else says: This guide is excellently useful, and makes for fun reading to boot.

[nartana]

If you want to TWF, take dual wielder, its a fine feat for a vhuman. If you want to do dueling, take PAM and use a spear & shield. (In case you didn't know, spear is in the errata to count with polearm master.

As for the war caster, swords bard solves most of your problems with allowing you to use weapons as a spellcasting focus, though war caster is still a strong feat especially if you want to pick up Haste.

Start paladin for heavy armor. You might want to delay paladin 2 until after extra attack, but smite is really good. Up to you. PAM or TWF make it not hurt so bad to be behind on extra attack. That's pretty much it though.

Pick up defense FS from paladin for that +1 AC. Bard gives you whichever you prefer. Dueling with PAM is basically exclusively better, provided your DM doesn't hand out random magic weapons (because you will be depending on a staff or spear only).

On hexblade, it's a good dip. It depends a bit on your stat generation. If you are rolling for stats and end up with high stats as people tend to do, it's not really as helpful. It amounts to be +2 to hit and damage if you end up with 16 str and 20 cha. (Or its +2 all spell stuffs). That's super strong for 1 level dip, but the build will do absolutely fine without that. You don't have to hamfist it into your build just because it's mechanically strong. You'll have smites and flourishes and all kinds of goodies. If you do want to grab it, it won't be until level 9 after Pal 2/Bard 6. You can't afford to delay extra attack any further.

Hey thanks for the help! I had another question... What are some must have spells? Do I just grab all the smites I can?

[PeteNutButter]

I've used this guide to help me with two different barb multiclasses, and I wanted to offer my take on the Warlock Barb.

The guide offers a Fiend Pact as an example build, which is mechanically nice with the extra HP, and thematically fun, what with a demonic rage and all. But if you're really hoping to make the most out of Armor Agathy's and rage, I'd suggest the Fey Patron.

Mechanically, Misty Escape pairs well with Armor Agathy's and rage. AA is great with rage, but it's vulnerable to ranged attacks. Misty escape seems designed as a defensive tool, to get squishy Warlocks out of harms way, but I've had success using it offensively, to bring my raging frost beast closer to those pesky archers.

Thematically, Totem barbarian pairs well with Archfey. You have a compact with the spirits of nature's ferocity, and the character can feel like a Shamanic Spirit Caller.

I'll just say what everyone else says: This guide is excellently useful, and makes for fun reading to boot.

That's a good point about Misty Escape. Glad you enjoy the guide.

Hey thanks for the help! I had another question... What are some must have spells? Do I just grab all the smites I can?

If you are referring to smite spells, no most of those aren't that good since they are concentration. Bard spells aren't all that great overall, but there are definitely some must haves:
-Healing Word is good to bring up downed teammates for a bonus action
-Hold Person is Solid for setting up auto-crit smite. If you use ready action to set it up, you give your opponent(s) only one chance to save before you can land that auto-crit attack.
-Heat Metal is silly strong against applicable enemies.
-Greater Invisibility and Polymorph are both solid 4th level spells.

For magical secrets, things like Haste and Shield are good options. Although, shield is a lot easier to pick up with a hexblade or sorcerer dip.

In general aim for spells that you can find a use for that either are things like bonus action, reaction (feather fall, shield, etc.) or fulfill a roll you can't do with just attacking. I'd avoid most attack spells, except for maybe just one to have a ranged option. In practice a lot of your slots will be smites, but the higher you go the more utility you'll use them for.

[KyleG]

Looking for a multiclass suggestion. I have a character I want to create to start at level 6 who maybe spent a couple of levels in another class and after the death of his brothers took to studying necromancy so he could raise them and continue to walk life with them. With the exception of that he has no interest in necromancy. Any suggestions for a multiclass build. I know cleric has animate dead but a) I want the level 6 necromancer ability and b) I want the shift to learning these skills to be a life changing event that he has had to turn from one path to another. Any suggestions for a build this would work with?

[Arkhios]

Looking for a multiclass suggestion. I have a character I want to create to start at level 6 who maybe spent a couple of levels in another class and after the death of his brothers took to studying necromancy so he could raise them and continue to walk life with them. With the exception of that he has no interest in necromancy. Any suggestions for a multiclass build. I know cleric has animate dead but a) I want the level 6 necromancer ability and b) I want the shift to learning these skills to be a life changing event that he has had to turn from one path to another. Any suggestions for a build this would work with?

Well...

Assuming point-buy, and that you'll use only published material (that means barring UA), your options are rather limited, provided you want to keep chosen stats relevant throughout your career.
Becoming a Wizard requires int 13 at minimum, so the cop-out answer would be to start as some class that could benefit from having a bit higher Intelligence: Fighter (Arcane Archer or Eldritch Knight) or Rogue (Arcane Trickster or Inquisitive).



However, if your plan is to use wizard mostly (or only) for necromancy, it could be worth considering not increasing Intelligence further than maybe 14 (I have a "thing" for even scores; can't help it), and instead focus on some other abilities. Animate Dead is one of the few spells that couldn't care less about your spellcasting ability score, so you could just pick your other wizard spells with the same clause: No need for Spell Attack rolls or Saving Throw DCs.
In this case, you could go much more creative. One particularly interesting idea I just came up with involves being a Paladin at first. When the character's brothers die, he takes up on the Oath of Vengeance, but before you get deeper into paladin, you instead dip into Wizard (Necromancer) for 6 levels, and continue with Paladin afterwards.

Spoiler: Paladin/Necromancer crunchy bits

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Admittedly, Paladin/Wizard is very Ability Score intensive, because you would need Str 13, Int 13, and Cha 13 at minimum. But here's how you could accomplish it: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12.
You didn't mention a race, but knowing that humans are prone to make rash decisions, it would be both thematically and mechanically fitting course of action. Pick Variant Human, and place your racial ability scores to Strength and Charisma, then take Resilient Constitution. As your first ASI, increase your Charisma with the Actor feat (honestly, that's pretty good feat for an Oath of Vengeance paladin; think about Bruce Wayne/Batman or Kit Walker/Phantom. Both are rather athletic and definitely strong, and have a reason to act as Judge, Jury, and Executioners. In addition, both have a life separate from their night-time activities, and probably need to put some effort into deception and disguise so that their enemies wouldn't realize who they really are).

You'll end up starting with Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14 at 6th level.

You could start as: Paladin 2/Wizard 4, then advance Wizard to 6th level, and then go back to Paladin to exact your revenge on the killers of your brothers, both of them fighting by your side!

Spoiler: Spoilered for rambling thoughts

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I just realized that Oath of Redemption would be immensely funny with a Necromancer MC.
Starting at 7th Paladin level, you get to magically take the damage an ally of yours would take within 10 feet of you. Imagine having your brother being hit badly. What would a character like this do in a situation like that. I'd say the only logical course of action would be to exclaim "NEVER AGAIN!" and take the damage to himself instead.
Fun fact: Oath of Redemption has absolutely no qualms about befriending undead. They can't even turn undead!

Same goes with Oath of the Ancients. They can turn Fey and Fiends, but nothing says they couldn't have undead buddies.

Imagine at 13th level, Ancients Paladin 7/Necromancer 6:
You have up to 5th level spell slots, so you could cast Animate Dead on a total of 9 targets, and have all of them benefit from both Aura of Protection and Aura of Warding; in addition to granting your proficiency bonus on their weapon damage rolls and your wizard level as extra hit points!

[KyleG]

That is a well thought out answer but 24hrs later im leaning in a slightly different direction.
With his brothers ranging from a far i figure he would hang back too (ranged). I think He is obsessive about keeping them nearby and protecting them as they protect him.
1. Perhaps this young kid was a bard (lore? valor?) before this and will go back now that he has achieved his goal, or
2. Has studying a spellbook and gaining this knowledge unlocked a latent Sorcery talent within, Is a WizSor build an option (especially as noted keeping Intelligence at 13), Or
3. Perhaps he will simply take up arms like his brothers (arcane archer? banneret?).

I think he is also perhaps a little desensitized towards death, like sociopath level.
I have this scene in my head (still some gaps to fill in) of this kid approaching a wizard and asking if his book shows how to raise the dead. The wizard replies yes but they wouldn't be the same. He responds with will they stand beside me, protect me? Yes, says the wizard. Then nothing has changed says the boy, will you help me? No, the wizard says, and is promptly gutted, his book stolen to study from, and the life of the character begins.
I think he is going to end up being an 'if i want it ill take it' type of character which should fit better with the party than my current lawful neutral hexblade who is trying to fit into a chaotic, swindling party.

As a note he was initially inspired by the Michonne character from the walking dead and her first appearance way back when. Obviously its taken on a mind of its own partially because the undead of dnd are not as hardy as those on the walking dead can be, so melee combat is dangerous.

[Arkhios]

I think he is also perhaps a little desensitized towards death, like sociopath level.
I have this scene in my head (still some gaps to fill in) of this kid approaching a wizard and asking if his book shows how to raise the dead. The wizard replies yes but they wouldn't be the same. He responds with will they stand beside me, protect me? Yes, says the wizard. Then nothing has changed says the boy, will you help me? No, the wizard says, and is promptly gutted, his book stolen to study from, and the life of the character begins.
I think he is going to end up being an 'if i want it ill take it' type of character which should fit better with the party than my current lawful neutral hexblade who is trying to fit into a chaotic, swindling party.

As a note he was initially inspired by the Michonne character from the walking dead and her first appearance way back when. Obviously its taken on a mind of its own partially because the undead of dnd are not as hardy as those on the walking dead can be, so melee combat is dangerous.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with anything related to the Walking Dead, but judging from the Scene in your head the character could very well have been a rogue (thief) before going into wizard (and thus, necromancer). Thieves pretty much embody the "if I want it, I'll take it" attitude. It would be rather fitting in my opinion.

Of course, there's also the possibility that you take the Criminal Background and just start as a 6th level Necromancer, maybe take a flavorful feat at 1st-level (if v.Human) to further emphasize your character's different background.

As for how it could be done, Rogue (Thief) 3/Wizard (Necromancer) 3, if you feel that having Dex and/or Int 16 is enough for a 6th level character (as I do, to be honest). Whether you take the next level in Rogue or Wizard, you can increase either stat by 2 (or both if you take 4 levels each before choosing which class to focus on).

Rogue can be amazing archer as well. Especially with reliable means of sneak attack, and with Animate Dead you do, because the two situations where you can get sneak attack is to either have advantage on your attack or have an ally within 5 feet of the target. Your zombie/skeleton brothers provide you the latter pretty much always. Reliable ranged sneak attacks is going to be great, even if you had a 6 level "dip" into wizard. Trust me. I DM'd a campaign that had 3 rogues out of 5 characters, and the damage being dealt by them was cuhrazy. One of them was an archer with the Assassin archetype.

[ZaneOlric]

Will you update the guide when the Artificer releases in November?

[PeteNutButter]

Will you update the guide when the Artificer releases in November?

I'll have to. It'll take some time, but yes.

[redjackettrnr]

Hi OP,

I am trying to fine tone a rogue/warlock MC!

the idea for the warlock rogue MC is: warlock hexblade, rogue swashbuckler
a 12 rogue/8 warlock with cantrip focused and pact of chain. shadow blade with a back up sword
a 8 rogue/12 warlock with pact weapon focus and pact of blade.
a 10/10 mid split. I wanted lvl 10 Warlock so I can have evasion, uncanny dodge and armor of hex for more survival option.

If i take up two weapon fighting, that mean i will have AC 16 (or mage armor of 17), and then have shadow blade and rapier?

i guess total options are:
hex focused, rapier + shield, 18/19 Ac total, pact of blade/thirsting blade, two chances of SA
shadow blade, twf with rapier, 16/17 Ac total, pact of chain ultility, two chances of SA but have some penalty bc twf (not sure about this part)
hex focused, rapier + shield, 18/19 Ac total, booming blade cantrip focus, pact of chain for distraction, pact of chain for distraction
shadow blade with an actual weapon as back up + shield, 18/19 total, booming blade cantrip focus, pact of chain for distraction

also, if the imp uses help, do ALL allies gain advantage on the enemy?

I guess I just hope for some general info on ur thoughts!

ALSO. Monk 17 (kensei or drunk master)/Ranger 3 (hunter/gloom stalker), with spear as weapon for short and long range openers. What do you think?

[PeteNutButter]

Hi OP,

I am trying to fine tone a rogue/warlock MC!

the idea for the warlock rogue MC is: warlock hexblade, rogue swashbuckler
a 12 rogue/8 warlock with cantrip focused and pact of chain. shadow blade with a back up sword
a 8 rogue/12 warlock with pact weapon focus and pact of blade.
a 10/10 mid split. I wanted lvl 10 Warlock so I can have evasion, uncanny dodge and armor of hex for more survival option.

If i take up two weapon fighting, that mean i will have AC 16 (or mage armor of 17), and then have shadow blade and rapier?

i guess total options are:
hex focused, rapier + shield, 18/19 Ac total, pact of blade/thirsting blade, two chances of SA
shadow blade, twf with rapier, 16/17 Ac total, pact of chain ultility, two chances of SA but have some penalty bc twf (not sure about this part)
hex focused, rapier + shield, 18/19 Ac total, booming blade cantrip focus, pact of chain for distraction, pact of chain for distraction
shadow blade with an actual weapon as back up + shield, 18/19 total, booming blade cantrip focus, pact of chain for distraction

also, if the imp uses help, do ALL allies gain advantage on the enemy?

I guess I just hope for some general info on ur thoughts!

ALSO. Monk 17 (kensei or drunk master)/Ranger 3 (hunter/gloom stalker), with spear as weapon for short and long range openers. What do you think?

I don't really bother planning level 20 builds, because they almost never get there. If they do, it is never for long. Start by figuring out which you'd rather be more of a rogue or more of a warlock. Take at least 5 levels in the class you want to be more of, with no more than 2 levels in the other before you hit 5 in the main class. From there as you actually play the game, you'll see which class you'd rather increase. Rogue is simple linear damage boost every other level; warlock is more utility.

I'd avoid TWF. It requires a feat (dual wielder) to use shadowblade and rapier, and then takes your bonus action every round which on a hexblade is just too dang filled. It'd take 3 rounds before you'd have hex and curse on a target that you actually hit with your bonus action attack. Things usually die before that.

Using the help action only gives advantage to one attack.

To sum up your best options are to be a rogue that dipped warlock ~1,3, or 5 levels for shields, and spells OR a warlock that dipped ~5 levels of rogue for a sneak attack damage boost and uncanny dodge.

I'd consider a arcane trickster instead of swashbuckler. Dump int and use those spell slots as shield spell. It's a lot more versatile, and you can pick up find familiar if you want to get the majority of the chain pact perks and still be a blade pact. I'd probably go with blade pact, but that's because I have little luck getting booming blade to pop, and would rather have the extra attack.

To your last suggestion, monk/ranger is a solid MC.

[redjackettrnr]

I don't really bother planning level 20 builds, because they almost never get there. If they do, it is never for long. Start by figuring out which you'd rather be more of a rogue or more of a warlock. Take at least 5 levels in the class you want to be more of, with no more than 2 levels in the other before you hit 5 in the main class. From there as you actually play the game, you'll see which class you'd rather increase. Rogue is simple linear damage boost every other level; warlock is more utility.

I'd avoid TWF. It requires a feat (dual wielder) to use shadowblade and rapier, and then takes your bonus action every round which on a hexblade is just too dang filled. It'd take 3 rounds before you'd have hex and curse on a target that you actually hit with your bonus action attack. Things usually die before that.

Using the help action only gives advantage to one attack.

To sum up your best options are to be a rogue that dipped warlock ~1,3, or 5 levels for shields, and spells OR a warlock that dipped ~5 levels of rogue for a sneak attack damage boost and uncanny dodge.

I'd consider a arcane trickster instead of swashbuckler. Dump int and use those spell slots as shield spell. It's a lot more versatile, and you can pick up find familiar if you want to get the majority of the chain pact perks and still be a blade pact. I'd probably go with blade pact, but that's because I have little luck getting booming blade to pop, and would rather have the extra attack.

To your last suggestion, monk/ranger is a solid MC.

Thank you for the suggestion! I was planning to do slowly get the levels!
Will definitely get the rouge 5 bc evasion and warlock 3 for the pact and take it from there.
Thank you!

[Aidamis]

Hi Folks! just a quick question.

What do you think of a Fighter 1 dip for an Oath of the Ancients Paladin?

My reasoning is that free Resilient:Con, a Fighting Style and Second Wind are worth the spells delay (imho) and leave a door open for taking more Fighter levels later on if I'll want it (and then as soon as I get in, I get Action Surge).
Plus I like the idea of a godless soldier who converted later for some important reason.

Thank you for your feedback!