Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

[Tamms]

Since you generally want some Wisdom anyway, Forge Cleric comes pretty close to lacking MADness, it doesn't delay spell slot progression, it gives better armor than Artificer, it gives Wis save proficiency, and it gives party access to a no-concentration magic weapon or enchanted armor. For this reason I believe Artificer is comparable to cleric.

My quick and final rebuttal is that Forge Cleric only gives better armor when you or your party is able to shell out 1,500 gold for a single set of Plate. I have played many campaigns where it takes months to get that much gold saved for a single item, making that point variable in how valid it is. I do agree with it not delaying spell slot progression but due to most enemies in the game doing physical damage and a feat specifically mentioned to Wizards being Resilient (CON) I disagree on that view on Wisdom saves until higher levels with much larger modifiers from enemies.

[ZorroGames]

My quick and final rebuttal is that Forge Cleric only gives better armor when you or your party is able to shell out 1,500 gold for a single set of Plate. I have played many campaigns where it takes months to get that much gold saved for a single item, making that point variable in how valid it is. I do agree with it not delaying spell slot progression but due to most enemies in the game doing physical damage and a feat specifically mentioned to Wizards being Resilient (CON) I disagree on that view on Wisdom saves until higher levels with much larger modifiers from enemies.

In AL (see sig block) which was every game until July of this year I have never seen two players or more pool their money to buy plate, even spouses, for a single character. Even when one party played the Heist and got away with scads of money every PC used his/her money on their individual character. Maybe good friends in a home game have done that. Closest I have seen in OD&D was a loan with interest between players.

I can see both WI and Resilient Con being good choices. IMNSHO it is a matter of player preference/DM style of world choice.

[MaxWilson]

My quick and final rebuttal is that Forge Cleric only gives better armor when you or your party is able to shell out 1,500 gold for a single set of Plate. I have played many campaigns where it takes months to get that much gold saved for a single item, making that point variable in how valid it is. I do agree with it not delaying spell slot progression but due to most enemies in the game doing physical damage and a feat specifically mentioned to Wizards being Resilient (CON) I disagree on that view on Wisdom saves until higher levels with much larger modifiers from enemies.

It's the physical damage that makes Constitution checks so avoidable via high AC.

AL economics is known to be messed up (can't you loot plate armor off one of the many monsters that wear it, like an Orog? not in AL!). I don't know many details about AL though. My sympathies if you find AL restrictions distorting your gameplay.

[PeteNutButter]

UPDATE:
I've created rudimentary entries for all artificer combinations, and in the process altered some existing colors on the chart. There isn't much to the entries yet, but sadly I'm severely limited on space. Surprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly) I'm at or near the 50000 character count maximum on all 4 posts. Effectively that means all my additions have to come at the cost of trimming editing, shortening, etc. I'll keep working at this, trimming out redundancies and other fat to make space for more useful content, especially some example builds (I'm theorycrafting up some goodies).

As always, please provide any feedback from high concept to typo corrections.

As a side note, my time is divided as I'm also working on my side project, my own game, and am currently looking for play testers.
Please check it out or PM me for discord invite: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Beta-Playtest

[MaxWilson]

UPDATE:
I've created rudimentary entries for all artificer combinations, and in the process altered some existing colors on the chart. There isn't much to the entries yet, but sadly I'm severely limited on space. Surprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly) I'm at or near the 50000 character count maximum on all 4 posts. Effectively that means all my additions have to come at the cost of trimming editing, shortening, etc. I'll keep working at this, trimming out redundancies and other fat to make space for more useful content, especially some example builds (I'm theorycrafting up some goodies).

As always, please provide any feedback from high concept to typo corrections.

Please consider the other option instead of trimming what's there: instead, copy what's there to a new thread with more space (reserve 8 posts instead of 4), and edit the OP of this thread to say "obsolete, please see [new URL] instead" at the top. It will be less work for you and will preserve valuable content.

[AgenderArcee]

One thing I've seen brought up that's worth mentioning for Artificer/Warlock - a two-level Warlock dip gives you two first-level spell slots that recharge on a short rest, which means a potential Elixir windfall for the Alchemist.

[stoutstien]

One thing I've seen brought up that's worth mentioning for Artificer/Warlock - a two-level Warlock dip gives you two first-level spell slots that recharge on a short rest, which means a potential Elixir windfall for the Alchemist.

Works ok for artillerist also with good use of 1st lv slots

[Sno]

What makes dipping an artificer for a fighter gold? It seems decent enough, like an artillerist with the protector cannon, and some neat spells, but gold...? Is there something I am missing here?

[PeteNutButter]

What makes dipping an artificer for a fighter gold? It seems decent enough, like an artillerist with the protector cannon, and some neat spells, but gold...? Is there something I am missing here?

There are a whole lot of synergizes. As a fighter (or any gish) defensive spells are absolutely amazing. Artificer gives absorb elements in one level and shield in 3. You could pick up both in a single wizard dip (or play an EK), but the other perks put it over the top in my opinion. Unless you pick up PAM or crossbow expert, fighters don't have much to do with their bonus action. Using your turret or steel defender suddenly gives you a regular way of either putting out more damage or sustaining more.

Furthermore, fighters are the class most dependent on their weapon. Being able to guarantee a magic weapon of your choosing can be invaluable. Even if your DM would give that to you, its uncommon IME to get all the +1 items you want (weapon, shield, armor etc.).

Basically all the artificer stuff works without competing with fighter stuff. As long as you pick up extra attack somewhere, you're character is going to perform well. Gold might be a stretch, but it's at least sky blue.

[AgenderArcee]

There are a whole not of synergizes. As a fighter (or any gish) defensive spells are absolutely amazing. Artificer gives absorb elements in one level and shield in 3. You could pick up both in a single wizard dip (or play an EK), but the other perks put it over the top in my opinion. Unless you pick up PAM or crossbow expert, fighters don't have much to do with their bonus action. Using your turret or steel defender suddenly gives you a regular way of either putting out more damage or sustaining more.

Furthermore, fighters are the class most dependent on their weapon. Being able to guarantee a magic weapon of your choosing can be invaluable. Even if your DM would give that to you, its uncommon IME to get all the +1 items you want (weapon, shield, armor etc.).

Basically all the artificer stuff works without competing with fighter stuff. As long as you pick up extra attack somewhere, you're character is going to perform well. Gold might be a stretch, but it's at least sky blue.

You are giving up progression in Fighter features for magic items you could potentially get elsewhere (such as even just having an Artificer in your party), though, as well as spells you can just get as an EK or with a Wizard dip (as you said). The Steel Defender or Eldritch Cannon is nice for a bonus action use, but its HP scales off your Artificer level, so it's going to die quickly after a while if you're just dipping Artificer. You're probably better off going for Artillerist over Battle Smith, actually, because you at least can carry the Tiny version of the Eldritch Cannon, making it less likely to be targeted.

Fighter/Artificer is fine, but Artificer/Fighter seems much better. Action Surge is a huge benefit, Second Wind is always nice, and having a Fighting Style is a great boon to the Battle Smith, as are Maneuvers or other Fighter subclass features, while the Artillerist or even Alchemist could still get very nice benefit out of the Defense style. Dipping EK in particular gets you all those benefits while only putting you back one level in spell slots (or two if you go for the ASI), while getting you 3-4 extra spells known from the Wizard spell list and, even better, doubling your cantrips available before level 10 and giving you access to the SCAG cantrips. By dipping Fighter, you get all these benefits while still being able to get higher level Artificer spells, a more robust Steel Defender, and Arcane Jolt.

EK is also, I think, the best candidate for a Fighter/Artificer build. Being Int-SAD will free up ASIs that might otherwise be divided between improving weapon attack and spell attack/DC. Your Steel Defender will die a lot but it is still nice to have a couple uses of Deflect Attack before then, which won't compete with War Magic for your bonus action.

[MaxWilson]

There are a whole not of synergizes. As a fighter (or any gish) defensive spells are absolutely amazing. Artificer gives absorb elements in one level and shield in 3. You could pick up both in a single wizard dip (or play an EK), but the other perks put it over the top in my opinion. Unless you pick up PAM or crossbow expert, fighters don't have much to do with their bonus action. Using your turret or steel defender suddenly gives you a regular way of either putting out more damage or sustaining more.

Furthermore, fighters are the class most dependent on their weapon. Being able to guarantee a magic weapon of your choosing can be invaluable. Even if your DM would give that to you, its uncommon IME to get all the +1 items you want (weapon, shield, armor etc.).

Basically all the artificer stuff works without competing with fighter stuff. As long as you pick up extra attack somewhere, you're character is going to perform well. Gold might be a stretch, but it's at least sky blue.

Gold? If gold is supposed to mean "you can't regret it," I'm not seeing fighter/artificer as gold. Maybe it's worthwhile on a Battlemaster or Samurai in a low-magic campaign (though you will struggle for spell slots in that case unless you go deep on Artificer), but if you're playing an Eldritch Knight it's hard for me to even see Artificer as very good. Those defensive spells? You've already got them. Magic weapon? You can have it by 7th level with your non-evoc/abj picks, and it casts as a bonus action. Artificer also adds MADness due to multiclassing requirements. Battle Ready lets you attack with Int, but you need high-ish Str/Dex anyway to multiclass. You already had Con save proficiency and armor/shield proficiencies from being a Fighter.

Frankly, for an Eldritch Knight, I can't see it being a good idea to take any Artificer levels any time before level 11, and even after that Artificer merely looks competitive with other classes like Wizard and Rogue.

For example, let's say I take the gold rating at face value and play an Eldritch Knight X/Battlesmith 3. For the sake of argument let's say Battlesmith is online early because I left Dex low, planning to rely on Battle Ready.

At 5th level: a pure EK would have 3 first-level slots for Shield/Absorb Elements/etc., Extra Attack, some ribbons like Weapon Bond, a 1d10+5 HP Second Wind, and a feat for Crossbow Expert or +2 Dex or whatever. As a Fighter 2/Battlesmith 3, I've got an AC 15, 20ish HP Steel Defender that can do 1d8+2 force damage with my bonus action, but I've only got one attack (so my Action Surge is weaker). I have four 1st level spell slots. I'm probably slightly stronger than the pure EK in melee if I can leverage both my Steel Defender and SCAG cantrips but otherwise my at-will attacks are weaker (1 Sharpshooter attack instead of 2, no Crossbow Expert online yet due to no ASI yet). Unlike the EK I have access to prepared spellcasting and a good non-evoc/abj list of stuff like Faerie Fire. I have a couple of magical infusions to give myself e.g. a magic weapon and +1 to AC.

At 8th level: pure EK would have four 1st and two 2nd level slots. So will I. Fighter's War Magic now gives him the same Booming Blade combo I was using before, only his bonus action is his weapon attack instead of my 1d8+2 Steel Defender attack. (The fighter's is likely to be slightly more accurate and slightly more damaging, but call it approximately a wash.) Fighter now has second level spells online like Magic Weapon and/or Darkness, and has two ASIs more than I do: I probably skipped Crossbow Expert because I already have a bonus action, so let's say I took Sharpshooter, and he took Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and Dex +2. He probably dislikes relying on the Booming Blade combo because his at-will attacks with Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert are much better than that, but for me Attack + Extra Attack + Steel Defender Attack is a staple. Thanks to my built-in magic weapon, I do about as much damage as he does with those first two attacks despite his extra ASI, unless he spends his own concentration and a spell slot on Magic Weapon too. But against AC 15ish my Steel Defender bonus attack is only about 50% as good as one of my own attacks (and of course the Steel Defender is still fragile and prone to dying) so my overall at-will damage is about 85% of the pure EK's, give or take.

At 11th level: pure EK has four 1st and three 2nd level slots. Again, so do I. I've caught up in ASIs now, but now the Fighter has three attacks (plus bonus action attack), six attacks when Action Surging, plus some random stuff like Indomitable (doesn't really matter much) and I now have War Magic too, but it doesn't matter because my Steel Defender usually eats my bonus action.

I'm not seeing any point there between levels 5 and 11 where I'd actually be glad to have spent levels on Artificer instead of staying pure EK. I don't think gold is appropriate for Fighter/Artificer. It is definitely possible to go wrong.

[PeteNutButter]

You are giving up progression in Fighter features for magic items you could potentially get elsewhere (such as even just having an Artificer in your party), though, as well as spells you can just get as an EK or with a Wizard dip (as you said). The Steel Defender or Eldritch Cannon is nice for a bonus action use, but its HP scales off your Artificer level, so it's going to die quickly after a while if you're just dipping Artificer. You're probably better off going for Artillerist over Battle Smith, actually, because you at least can carry the Tiny version of the Eldritch Cannon, making it less likely to be targeted.

Fighter/Artificer is fine, but Artificer/Fighter seems much better. Action Surge is a huge benefit, Second Wind is always nice, and having a Fighting Style is a great boon to the Battle Smith, as are Maneuvers or other Fighter subclass features, while the Artillerist or even Alchemist could still get very nice benefit out of the Defense style. Dipping EK in particular gets you all those benefits while only putting you back one level in spell slots (or two if you go for the ASI), while getting you 3-4 extra spells known from the Wizard spell list and, even better, doubling your cantrips available before level 10 and giving you access to the SCAG cantrips. By dipping Fighter, you get all these benefits while still being able to get higher level Artificer spells, a more robust Steel Defender, and Arcane Jolt.

EK is also, I think, the best candidate for a Fighter/Artificer build. Being Int-SAD will free up ASIs that might otherwise be divided between improving weapon attack and spell attack/DC. Your Steel Defender will die a lot but it is still nice to have a couple uses of Deflect Attack before then, which won't compete with War Magic for your bonus action.

Gold? If gold is supposed to mean "you can't regret it," I'm not seeing fighter/artificer as gold. Maybe it's worthwhile on a Battlemaster or Samurai in a low-magic campaign (though you will struggle for spell slots in that case unless you go deep on Artificer), but if you're playing an Eldritch Knight it's hard for me to even see Artificer as very good. Those defensive spells? You've already got them. Magic weapon? You can have it by 7th level with your non-evoc/abj picks, and it casts as a bonus action. Artificer also adds MADness due to multiclassing requirements. Battle Ready lets you attack with Int, but you need high-ish Str/Dex anyway to multiclass. You already had Con save proficiency and armor/shield proficiencies from being a Fighter.

Frankly, for an Eldritch Knight, I can't see it being a good idea to take any Artificer levels any time before level 11, and even after that Artificer merely looks competitive with other classes like Wizard and Rogue.

For example, let's say I take the gold rating at face value and play an Eldritch Knight X/Battlesmith 3. For the sake of argument let's say Battlesmith is online early because I left Dex low, planning to rely on Battle Ready.

At 5th level: a pure EK would have 3 first-level slots for Shield/Absorb Elements/etc., Extra Attack, some ribbons like Weapon Bond, a 1d10+5 HP Second Wind, and a feat for Crossbow Expert or +2 Dex or whatever. As a Fighter 2/Battlesmith 3, I've got an AC 15, 20ish HP Steel Defender that can do 1d8+2 force damage with my bonus action, but I've only got one attack (so my Action Surge is weaker). I have four 1st level spell slots. I'm probably slightly stronger than the pure EK in melee if I can leverage both my Steel Defender and SCAG cantrips but otherwise my at-will attacks are weaker (1 Sharpshooter attack instead of 2, no Crossbow Expert online yet due to no ASI yet). Unlike the EK I have access to prepared spellcasting and a good non-evoc/abj list of stuff like Faerie Fire. I have a couple of magical infusions to give myself e.g. a magic weapon and +1 to AC.

At 8th level: pure EK would have four 1st and two 2nd level slots. So will I. Fighter's War Magic now gives him the same Booming Blade combo I was using before, only his bonus action is his weapon attack instead of my 1d8+2 Steel Defender attack. (The fighter's is likely to be slightly more accurate and slightly more damaging, but call it approximately a wash.) Fighter now has second level spells online like Magic Weapon and/or Darkness, and has two ASIs more than I do: I probably skipped Crossbow Expert because I already have a bonus action, so let's say I took Sharpshooter, and he took Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and Dex +2. He probably dislikes relying on the Booming Blade combo because his at-will attacks with Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert are much better than that, but for me Attack + Extra Attack + Steel Defender Attack is a staple. Thanks to my built-in magic weapon, I do about as much damage as he does with those first two attacks despite his extra ASI, unless he spends his own concentration and a spell slot on Magic Weapon too. But against AC 15ish my Steel Defender bonus attack is only about 50% as good as one of my own attacks (and of course the Steel Defender is still fragile and prone to dying) so my overall at-will damage is about 85% of the pure EK's, give or take.

At 11th level: pure EK has four 1st and three 2nd level slots. Again, so do I. I've caught up in ASIs now, but now the Fighter has three attacks (plus bonus action attack), six attacks when Action Surging, plus some random stuff like Indomitable (doesn't really matter much) and I now have War Magic too, but it doesn't matter because my Steel Defender usually eats my bonus action.

I'm not seeing any point there between levels 5 and 11 where I'd actually be glad to have spent levels on Artificer instead of staying pure EK. I don't think gold is appropriate for Fighter/Artificer. It is definitely possible to go wrong.

This is good discussion. For any multiclass characters, there will be levels where the single class character outperforms (like level 11 in most cases).

I actually wasn't thinking of going EK, even though that's the obvious pick. IMO the artificer dip fits better on a class that doesn't have those spells already, like samurai, battle master, cavalier. I'd imagine a Cavalier can delay his 3rd attack to pick up, absorb elements & shield spells (that doesn't need to have war caster!), a piece of +1 defensive gear, and maybe a turret to spam TMP, especially if he grabbed HAM.

Granted, any MC fighter is going to miss not having a third attack at level 11. After 11 though, the long stretch to level 20, makes MCing pretty much optimal, regardless of where you head.

Of note on the EK build, your spells will be significantly more powerful in the long run as you can max that Int, but at that point you might as well take wizard levels.

Like I said, gold is probably too high, but I admitted rate a few of these too high just to get some input.

[MaxWilson]

This is good discussion. For any multiclass characters, there will be levels where the single class character outperforms (like level 11 in most cases).

I actually wasn't thinking of going EK, even though that's the obvious pick. IMO the artificer dip fits better on a class that doesn't have those spells already, like samurai, battle master, cavalier. I'd imagine a Cavalier can delay his 3rd attack to pick up, absorb elements & shield spells (that doesn't need to have war caster!), a piece of +1 defensive gear, and maybe a turret to spam TMP, especially if he grabbed HAM.

Granted, any MC fighter is going to miss not having a third attack at level 11. After 11 though, the long stretch to level 20, makes MCing pretty much optimal, regardless of where you head.

Of note on the EK build, your spells will be significantly more powerful in the long run as you can max that Int, but at that point you might as well take wizard levels.

Like I said, gold is probably too high, but I admitted rate a few of these too high just to get some input.

I agree with this--e.g. Battlemaster/Artificer 3 is pretty interesting in a way similar to Battlemaster/Diviner 3, and they're equally-MAD. Ditto for Samurai and Cavalier. I tend to think that a more even split like Fighter 11/Other Class 9 offers more if the other class is wizard instead of Artificer, because the stuff the Fighter wants most from Artificer is front-loaded (magic weapons, maybe SADness), but they're both solid, defensible choices that probably deserve at least blue especially considering how little the base Fighter chassis gains between levels 11 and 20, which means that if you're playing one of the worse Fighter subclasses like Purple Dragon Knight or Arcane Archer, you'd almost certainly be better off with some Artificer or Wizard after level 11, if you've got the INT for it.

Edit: BTW I just noticed you rated the Ranger/Artificer Purple. I think this is undervaluing the combo quite a bit. It's probably Blue for reasons similar to the Fighter. A Gloomstalker X/Artificer 2, for example, gains a no-concentration magic weapon with which he can spam arrows behind his conjured animals. Unlike the Fighter he doesn't get an Extra Attack 2 anyway at 11th level so the opportunity cost is less. He can pick up Con save proficiency via Artificer if he wants to (by taking Artificer first), and he gains access to Shield and Expeditious Retreat. He can go Battlesmith 3 for more SADness, especially if he wants to eventually do something like Ranger 11/Battlesmith 3/Diviner 6: everything except INT can be left at in the 13-14 range.

Edit2: also, Battlemaster/Artificer still needs Str/Dex for their Battlemaster maneuver saving throw DCs. If you use Battlesmith's Battle Ready to dump Dex (or Str) you are making your Fighter maneuvers weaker, not to mention your initiative (or Athletics) and AC. I think it's still better in this case to leave Int low and pump Dex instead, which means you're about as MAD as a Battlemaster/Wizard: one stat to max (Dex) and one to leave at 13ish.

[Teaguethebean]

I have a proposition with which to make the barbarian rogue a golden ranked combo and it involves the often forgotten berserker. The build is barb 3/rouge x in practice you spend your bonus action attacking triggering your sneak attack followed by a held action to attack on an enemy's turn granting you a second sneak attack practically doubling your damage output.

[Teaguethebean]

also, Battlemaster/Artificer still needs Str/Dex for their Battlemaster maneuver saving throw DCs. If you use Battlesmith's Battle Ready to dump Dex (or Str) you are making your Fighter maneuvers weaker, not to mention your initiative (or Athletics) and AC. I think it's still better in this case to leave Int low and pump Dex instead, which means you're about as MAD as a Battlemaster/Wizard: one stat to max (Dex) and one to leave at 13ish.

I disagree as with a battlemaster you can avoid maneuvers that force saves; precision strike, riposte, commander's strike, lunging attack, and sweeping attack all don't rely on your dex or str, though sweeping and lunging are situational the other three are very solid picks. Your ac will hardly suffer as 14 dex is enough for a 19 ac with half plate and a shield and while it is true that initiative and athletics is hit you are gaining spell power and other skills.

[MaxWilson]

I have a proposition with which to make the barbarian rogue a golden ranked combo and it involves the often forgotten berserker. The build is barb 3/rouge x in practice you spend your bonus action attacking triggering your sneak attack followed by a held action to attack on an enemy's turn granting you a second sneak attack practically doubling your damage output.

That's an interesting combo but I don't think it's gold.

People love to hypothesize the Readied Sneak Attack + Second Sneak Attack combo, but it does cost the Rogue a very valuable Uncanny Dodge at the same time, which means you're staying in melee range but you're even squishier than a normal Rogue. At least with the Hasted combo you can Ready a ranged attack instead of a melee attack and still use your bonus action to Hide, but Berserker only gives you a bonus action melee attack.

[Teaguethebean]

That's an interesting combo but I don't think it's gold.

but it does cost the Rogue a very valuable Uncanny Dodge at the same time, which means you're staying in melee range but you're even squishier than a normal Rogue.

I suppose it isn't really gold material but I don't feel they are very squishy as they are still a raging barbarian with an ac of 19 with the halfplate and shield though 2 less hp per level past three than other barbarians.

[MaxWilson]

I suppose it isn't really gold material but I don't feel they are very squishy as they are still a raging barbarian with an ac of 19 with the halfplate and shield though 2 less hp per level past three than other barbarians.

Fair point, I wasn't thinking through the entire Berserker contribution, got distracted by Frenzy. It's better than I thought at higher levels, not gold but maybe between black and blue.

You do still run into the usual Berserker issue BTW which is that Frenzy doesn't even give you an extra attack until round 2.

Some numbers, ignoring GWM and to-hit for now: where a normal level 5 Berserker would be inflicting maybe 3 x 2d6+5 (36), you're Rogue 2/Berserker 3 inflicting 2 x d8+5+d6 (26). Where a normal level 15 Berserker would be inflicting maybe 3 x 2d6+8 (45), you're Rogue 12/Berserker 3 inflicting 2 x d8+8+6d6 (67). So, it takes a while to come online but especially in a featless campaign it could pay some pretty good dividends, while also increasing your durability.

Some numbers with GWM and to-hit probability included:

Level 15 Str 20 GWM Berserker vs. AC 18 Beholder: 3 attacks at +10 for 2d6+8 per hit is ~30 DPR (negligible increase to ~31 for GWMing). Reckless Attack increases that to ~42 DPR (~50 if Reckless GWMing).

Level 15 Str 20 Rogue 12/Berserker 3 vs AC 18 Beholder: 2 attacks at +10 for d8+8+6d6 per hit is ~46 DPR, or ~64 when Recklessly attacking.

So, probably blue if you make it to high levels and don't mind the exhaustion or the one-round delay.

[Aimeryan]

Fair point, I wasn't thinking through the entire Berserker contribution, got distracted by Frenzy. It's better than I thought at higher levels, not gold but maybe between black and blue.

You do still run into the usual Berserker issue BTW which is that Frenzy doesn't even give you an extra attack until round 2.

Some numbers, ignoring GWM and to-hit for now: where a normal level 5 Berserker would be inflicting maybe 3 x 2d6+5 (36), you're Rogue 2/Berserker 3 inflicting 2 x d8+5+d6 (26). Where a normal level 15 Berserker would be inflicting maybe 3 x 2d6+8 (45), you're Rogue 12/Berserker 3 inflicting 2 x d8+8+6d6 (67). So, it takes a while to come online but especially in a featless campaign it could pay some pretty good dividends, while also increasing your durability.

Some numbers with GWM and to-hit probability included:

Level 15 Str 20 GWM Berserker vs. AC 18 Beholder: 3 attacks at +10 for 2d6+8 per hit is ~30 DPR (negligible increase to ~31 for GWMing). Reckless Attack increases that to ~42 DPR (~50 if Reckless GWMing).

Level 15 Str 20 Rogue 12/Berserker 3 vs AC 18 Beholder: 2 attacks at +10 for d8+8+6d6 per hit is ~46 DPR, or ~64 when Recklessly attacking.

So, probably blue if you make it to high levels and don't mind the exhaustion or the one-round delay.

Without seeing all the maths, the bolded part - is this including the sneak attack twice?

Spoiler: Nevermind, didn't read about the off-turn attack

Show

One hit one miss will have one sneak attack, while two hits will have one with sneak attack, one without. The maths for this as I work it out are:

(0.35^2) * 0                                 =   0.0        <---- To-hit * Damage when both attacks miss
(1-(0.35^2)-(0.65^2))*(12.5+21)              = ~15.2        <---- To-hit * Damage when one attack hits, one misses
(0.65^2) * (12.5+21+12.5)                    = ~19.4        <---- To-hit * Damage when both attacks hit

Which works out to ~34.6 average DPR when all the component probabilities are added up.

With Reckless, if my maths work out it should look like:

(0.1225^2) * 0                               =   0.0        <---- To-hit * Damage when both attacks miss
(1-(0.1225^2)-(0.8775^2))*(12.5+21)          =  ~7.2        <---- To-hit * Damage when one attack hits, one misses
(0.8775^2) * (12.5+21+12.5)                  = ~35.4        <---- To-hit * Damage when both attacks hit

Which works out to ~42.6 average DPR when all the component probabilities are added up.

---

Of note, magic +X weapons, and also Flametongue and the like, favours the GWM more than the Rogue due to the additional to-hit and damage per attack. Enemies with less AC favours the Barbarian more. Lots of weak enemies (that can be killed in one hit) favour the Barbarian more.

It might be considered that crits benefit the Rogue a lot more due to the sneak attack die, however, there is a hidden factor; Brutal Critical (2 Dice) means the Barbarian adds two additional weapon-die (so, four weapon-die total), which are at d12 if using a Greataxe vs the d8 of the rogue - that's 4d12 (26) instead of 2d8 (9). With the 6d6 (21) from the sneak attack dice the Rogue gaining 30 average damage vs the Barbarian's 26 average damage - not that much more.

There are some potential losses of the off-turn attack - if the enemy dies between your turn and its turn, if it teleports (unless you ready for start casting a spell, but then it may do a non-spell action), subtle spell with no material components, etc. Likewise, the Barbarian could have killed the target on his turn with all three attacks (which are more damaging in total than the one sneak attack) and then used any remaining movement points to be better positioned for the next turn.

[kazaryu]

Human V.
Barbarian 5+/War Wizard 2
16, 14, 14, 13, 9, 8

This one isn't bad, uses the two levels in war wizard for a permanent reaction to give +2 AC, or +4 to a save. Since rage prevents spell casting the abiltiy to gain a small shield spell that is usable while raging is a good addition. It can use its spellbook to cast a decent variety of rituals out of combat, including the gaining of an owl familiar to aid one attack a round.

an alternative to this (almost certainly only viable if you're playing a high level one shot) would be half and half barb/bladesinger.
say like totem barb. while raging you're resistant to all damage (except psychic). and you can use you spell slots to further reduce damage you take. assuming you wanna take some kind of weapon feat (like GWM) you get 3 asi's to try to boost your str/con. (i'd say boost int, but im not sure it'd actually be optimal. since you're trading a +1 permanent AC/20HP for +1 AC while bladesong is active.

obviously this is not an optimal build choice by any stretch. there's a massive opportunity cost you give up. but it could be hilariously fun.

[AgenderArcee]

an alternative to this (almost certainly only viable if you're playing a high level one shot) would be half and half barb/bladesinger.
say like totem barb. while raging you're resistant to all damage (except psychic). and you can use you spell slots to further reduce damage you take. assuming you wanna take some kind of weapon feat (like GWM) you get 3 asi's to try to boost your str/con. (i'd say boost int, but im not sure it'd actually be optimal. since you're trading a +1 permanent AC/20HP for +1 AC while bladesong is active.

obviously this is not an optimal build choice by any stretch. there's a massive opportunity cost you give up. but it could be hilariously fun.

I'm confused about where the synergy is here? Unlike with the War Wizard, you can't use spells like Shield while raging.

[kazaryu]

I'm confused about where the synergy is here? Unlike with the War Wizard, you can't use spells like Shield while raging.

no, but you can use bladesong and song of defense. (bladesong probably only giving a +2 to AC) but song of defense would burn your spell slots to reduce damage taken.

however the fact that it basically comes online *after* taking 10 levels of wizard, is why i said that its 'almost certainly only viable if you're playing a lvl 20 one-shot'.

you could even go 9 barb/11 wizard so you can get tenser's transformation if you think you'll need an alternative to raging. but thats probably not ideal. because of the wizard levels you're going to be behind in HP and are gonna want the damage resistances from raging. but TT would be an OK backup if you wanted to either focus more on dealing damage, or if you (somehow) were out of rages.

[MaxWilson]

I'm confused about where the synergy is here? Unlike with the War Wizard, you can't use spells like Shield while raging.

I presume that it's Bladesong and Song of Defense.

[kazaryu]

I'm confused about where the synergy is here? Unlike with the War Wizard, you can't use spells like Shield while raging.

another interesting (but unfortunately niche) tidbit is that if you are in the first round of combat, you haven't had a chance to rage yet, and someone throws a bit of elemental damage your way (technically doesn't need to be the enemy), you *can* cast a high level absorb elements to make your first attack hit like a truck, and (very rarely) crit for even more '**** you' damage. but again, in a oneshot scenario, this is unlikely to happen unless its just a series of combats. the only real synergy the barb brings for this is that you can give yourself advantage so you're more likely to crit that first attack.

[MaxWilson]

another interesting (but unfortunately niche) tidbit is that if you are in the first round of combat, you haven't had a chance to rage yet, and someone throws a bit of elemental damage your way (technically doesn't need to be the enemy), you *can* cast a high level absorb elements to make your first attack hit like a truck, and (very rarely) crit for even more '**** you' damage. but again, in a oneshot scenario, this is unlikely to happen unless its just a series of combats. the only real synergy the barb brings for this is that you can give yourself advantage so you're more likely to crit that first attack.

It's a bit better than that. You can't Absorb Elements while Raging, but you can Bladesong + Song of Defense, and it also works against non-elemental damage sources that Absorb Elements wouldn't help with (poison, necrotic, psychic, etc.). Think of it as a pseudo-Bear resistance trait.

[kazaryu]

It's a bit better than that. You can't Absorb Elements while Raging, but you can Bladesong + Song of Defense, and it also works against non-elemental damage sources that Absorb Elements wouldn't help with (poison, necrotic, psychic, etc.). Think of it as a pseudo-Bear resistance trait.

oh no, that was already part of of the initial post, in fact that was the core mechanic that sparked the idea for the build. (you may not have noticed but i'd actually responded just a moment before you did.

this (the absorb elements bit) was just an additional little synergy that exists, even though its niche.

[MaxWilson]

(you may not have noticed but i'd actually responded just a moment before you did.

Curse you forum technology! [shakes fist]

Whoops, no, didn't see that before. Thanks!

however the fact that it basically comes online *after* taking 10 levels of wizard, is why i said that its 'almost certainly only viable if you're playing a lvl 20 one-shot'.

I think it's not that bad. You could go Barb 1 for medium armor + shields (yes, I know they don't stack with Bladesong) + Con saves and HP, then Bladesinger 1-10ish and have fun the whole time being a switch-hitter: turn on Rage only when you get backed into a corner and/or have already lost concentration on your big concentration spell for the fight. Don armor when you run out of Bladesongs.

The only problem I guess is that at that point it's going to be painful for you to go Barb 2-10ish instead of Bladesinger 11-19ish, since Barb 2-10 offers you very little that you don't already have.

[kazaryu]

Curse you forum technology! [shakes fist]

The only problem I guess is that at that point it's going to be painful for you to go Barb 2-10ish instead of Bladesinger 11-19ish, since Barb 2-10 offers you very little that you don't already have.

right. this. this is exactly the issue. if you focus on barb first then when you do start leveling bladesinger you're going to have like, 7 levels (3-9) where you don't really gain anything, because you can't use the spell slots while raging.

if you go mostly bladesinger first, then you're not really playing what you set out to play, which is ostensibly, a barbarian.

i think if you were to try this for an actual game then. probably don't try it unless you're pretty sure you're going to reach 20....but you'd probably wanna go 5 in barb to begin with, so you get that extra attack, then go into wizard for like...2 levels so you have bladesong. then finish the barb ASI (lvl8) then max out wizard, then swap back to barb?. probably provide teh smallest area of dought in terms of significant features?. idk def takes a bit of thought to maximize.

although i suppose if you're playing a campaign that has several combats between short rests, then it could work. go like 2 elvels barb then 10 levels of wizard. (like you mentioned) but instead of stacking bladesong and rage you use whichever you think is most useful for that particular combat. (mostly boiling down to, is being able to cast going to be important this combat). once you hit level 7 you cna even haste yourself, and then at 8 you have haste+extra attack (so long as you're not raging obvi).

[Teaguethebean]

Some numbers, ignoring GWM and to-hit for now: where a normal level 5 Berserker would be inflicting maybe 3 x 2d6+5 (36), you're Rogue 2/Berserker 3 inflicting 2 x d8+5+d6 (26). Where a normal level 15 Berserker would be inflicting maybe 3 x 2d6+8 (45), you're Rogue 12/Berserker 3 inflicting 2 x d8+8+6d6 (67). So, it takes a while to come online but especially in a featless campaign it could pay some pretty good dividends, while also increasing your durability.

Though it seems to fall behind by a lot, lv5 is just by far it's most behind level as at lv 6 the berserker is doing the same 36 dmg but the rougzerker is up to 33 from an increased sneak attack dice, and by lv8 the rougzerker is up to 40.

[MaxWilson]

right. this. this is exactly the issue. if you focus on barb first then when you do start leveling bladesinger you're going to have like, 7 levels (3-9) where you don't really gain anything, because you can't use the spell slots while raging.

if you go mostly bladesinger first, then you're not really playing what you set out to play, which is ostensibly, a barbarian.

Not sure I agree with this part. The biggest problem with the Barbarian class is that it's so front-loaded you can play e.g. a Barbarian 2/Fiend Bladelock X and still be about as good as a Barbarian X+2 at most or all aspects of the Barbarian fantasy. The same might apply to Bladesinger, although there are bonus action economy issues.

Still, it's not hard to see Barb 1/Bladesinger X working out pretty well at standard Barbarianisms like front-line fighting and hitting people with weapons. Due to the Dex emphasis you'd feel more like Tarzan than He-man but if you just do things like upcast False Life a lot you'll still be approximately as tough as a real Barbarian, which honestly ought to depress real Barbarians at least a little. The worst time you'll have will be levels 5-6 when your Extra Attack hasn't come online yet but a pure Barbarian's would have, and maybe you'd fall back to wizardly play (Fireballs and cantrips) at those levels, but the rest of the time... a Con 14 Barb 7 would have 68 HP, a Con 12 Barb 1/Bladesinger 6 would have 43 HP + ~16 temp HP from False Life III = peak 59 HP, with two more 3rd level spell slots in reserve. And the Bladesinger can pre-cast Longstrider to wind up 10' faster than the Barb even after you count Fast Movement.

i think if you were to try this for an actual game then. probably don't try it unless you're pretty sure you're going to reach 20....but you'd probably wanna go 5 in barb to begin with, so you get that extra attack, then go into wizard for like...2 levels so you have bladesong. then finish the barb ASI (lvl8) then max out wizard, then swap back to barb?. probably provide teh smallest area of dought in terms of significant features?. idk def takes a bit of thought to maximize.

although i suppose if you're playing a campaign that has several combats between short rests, then it could work. go like 2 elvels barb then 10 levels of wizard. (like you mentioned) but instead of stacking bladesong and rage you use whichever you think is most useful for that particular combat. (mostly boiling down to, is being able to cast going to be important this combat). once you hit level 7 you cna even haste yourself, and then at 8 you have haste+extra attack (so long as you're not raging obvi).

Going Barb 5 first seems like a mistake to me. There's too little return on the investment.