Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

[kazaryu]

Not sure I agree with this part. The biggest problem with the Barbarian class is that it's so front-loaded you can play e.g. a Barbarian 2/Fiend Bladelock X and still be about as good as a Barbarian X+2 at most or all aspects of the Barbarian fantasy. The same might apply to Bladesinger, although there are bonus action economy issues.

maybe, but imo it wouldn't feel like playing a barbarian, most of your abilities are going to be from the wizard half. that beign said, you may be right, i was mostly spitballing when i tossed out that idea

Going Barb 5 first seems like a mistake to me. There's too little return on the investment.

barb 2-reckless attack/danger sense
barb 3- resistance to all damage, except for psychic
barb 4- ASI. barbarians are MAD enough without having to worry about meet MC requirements for wizard, you need these ASIS
barb 5- extra movement/multiattack. if you've already taken 4 level sin barb, you may as well take the 5th otherwise you're not getting multi attack until 10. which would suck.

like you said, barb is pretty front loaded, grabbing these 5 levels i think would go a long way toward making it feel like a barbarian imo. and i think its worth the opportunity cost.

then you go 5 levels of wizard and gain:
1-familiar! (and i guess false life since...i mean 6 temp hit points isn't nothing? and you're not really using your spell slots for anything else at this juncture
2-bladesong!
3-uhhh...mirror image? i guess. or just magic mouth for da pranks! not many great, non concentration lvl 2 spells, at least not for this build. blur would be great, but its concentration, so its backup.
4- another ASI!
5- haste! (although niche, but still useful.) blink! (is kinda meh due to duration)

hmmm, overall IMO you tend to gain more from the barbarian levels than you do this, just because of the rage mechanic. also if you previously took those 5 levels in barbarian, the general drought of these levels is gonna be less impactful i think.

[MaxWilson]

barb 2-reckless attack/danger sense
barb 3- resistance to all damage, except for psychic
barb 4- ASI. barbarians are MAD enough without having to worry about meet MC requirements for wizard, you need these ASIS
barb 5- extra movement/multiattack. if you've already taken 4 level sin barb, you may as well take the 5th otherwise you're not getting multi attack until 10. which would suck.

like you said, barb is pretty front loaded, grabbing these 5 levels i think would go a long way toward making it feel like a barbarian imo. and i think its worth the opportunity cost.

Reckless Attack isn't valuable to you if you're a Dex barb (am I assuming wrong?), you'll get an ASI anyway out of going wizard, and you get that extra movement and extra attack out of Bladesinger: movement up front (plus even more via Longstrider), Extra Attack slightly later. Resistance to all damage except psychic tends not to matter as much until you start facing Mordenkainen's Tome-type foes frequently, at which point you'll probably*** be level 11+ and have Song of Defense.

So all you're really getting out of going Barb 5 is Danger sense, +1 extra Rage, and at level 5 you have 50 HP (Con 14) instead of 38 HP (Con 14) + 11 temp HP (False Life II, of which you have 3 castings).

But maybe I'm wrong to assume a Dex barb. (If a Str Barb, I'd go for Fiendlock or War Wizard instead of Bladesinger.)

Spoiler: Footnote ***

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Or, maybe not. I guess as a DM I'd totally throw a bunch of Mordenkainen's-type foes like two Gloomweavers and a Soul Monger at a level 9 party, under the right circumstances, but in this discussion I'm assuming a DM who plays more like the typical DM I hear posting on these forums, and not one who totally ignores DMG difficulty guidelines like me.

then you go 5 levels of wizard and gain:
1-familiar! (and i guess false life since...i mean 6 temp hit points isn't nothing? and you're not really using your spell slots for anything else at this juncture
2-bladesong!
3-uhhh...mirror image? i guess. or just magic mouth for da pranks! not many great, non concentration lvl 2 spells, at least not for this build. blur would be great, but its concentration, so its backup.
4- another ASI!
5- haste! (although niche, but still useful.) blink! (is kinda meh due to duration)

hmmm, overall IMO you tend to gain more from the barbarian levels than you do this, just because of the rage mechanic. also if you previously took those 5 levels in barbarian, the general drought of these levels is gonna be less impactful i think.

Taking the Barb levels first sounds more painful than taking the Bladesinger levels first.

[kazaryu]

Reckless Attack isn't valuable to you if you're a Dex barb (am I assuming wrong?),

i mean, yes? i'd pick dex/str based on which benefits me the most. and being able to at-will give myself advantage on attacks sounds very beneficial. at later levels i'd probably consider picking up mobile to mitigate the problems of giving enemies advantage.

you'll get an ASI anyway out of going wizard,

right, the ASI is more incidental, if you went 3 levels in barb you may as well pick up the 4th

and you get that extra movement and extra attack out of Bladesinger: movement up front (plus even more via Longstrider), Extra Attack slightly later.

similar to the ASI the extra attack is incidental. however, the movement stacks with bladesinger movement. in fact if you go 5 levels of bard first, then starting at lvl 5 you gain 10 feet of movement per level until 8. with some conditional modifers to some of the movement.

Resistance to all damage except psychic tends not to matter as much until you start facing Mordenkainen's Tome-type foes frequently, at which point you'll probably*** be level 11+ and have Song of Defense.

that was just an example, there's plenty of useful barbarian path features out there that you can choose from. even in just totem warrior there's some good ones (wolf: give the other 1-2 melee characters advantage always. etc.)

But maybe I'm wrong to assume a Dex barb. (If a Str Barb, I'd go for Fiendlock or War Wizard instead of Bladesinger.)

bladesinger doesn't gain any overt benefit from dex except for AC. the reason pure bladesingers are almost always dex is because it reduces MAD, not because they use the dex any better than any other class. in essence, you don't lose anything by not being a dex bladesinger, especially when the bladesinger isn't even the primary path.
war wizard could work (and is, in fact what the guide suggests),
and fiendlock isn't a wizard, so is also beyond the bounds of this discussion
(just as a reminder, we're discussing a potential barb/wizard multiclass option, at least that was the spirit of my suggestion. this was suggested as an alternative to the war wizard/barb example in the guid).

Taking the Barb levels first sounds more painful than taking the Bladesinger levels first.

obviously this is what it comes down to, its subjective. having played a bladesinger that can't cast (lvl 11, Tenser's transoformation) i can tell you that for me it doesn't feel like a barbarian, nor would it even if i was raging instead. now that may just come down to that particular character, but imo i'd wanna focus more on the barbarian aspect otherwise i wouldn't feel like im playing barb).

[Arkhios]

I'm not quite sure if I agree on Barbarian/Artificer being really that bad to be honest. At least not with Alchemist.

Experimental Elixir can be drunk at any time, even while raging, even though it does take an Action to do so. Any one of the Experimental effects would be beneficial to a barbarian, but especially the first four (Healing, Swiftness, Resilience, and Boldness) would help them a lot. Even Flight and Transformation could be useful, albeit a little situational.

The most important thing to recognize about Experimental Elixir is that you make them in advance, and each of them remain accessible until your next long rest.

3 levels into Artificer might seem like a lot for a barbarian, but 2 levels will already grant you two infusions (let's say Enhanced Defense and Enhanced Weapon). The first level is arguably a little less useful, but some utility cantrips could be fun to have, even if your intelligence wasn't that high.

[Teaguethebean]

I'm not quite sure if I agree on Barbarian/Artificer being really that bad to be honest. At least not with Alchemist.

Experimental Elixir can be drunk at any time, even while raging, even though it does take an Action to do so. Any one of the Experimental effects would be beneficial to a barbarian, but especially the first four (Healing, Swiftness, Resilience, and Boldness) would help them a lot. Even Flight and Transformation could be useful, albeit a little situational.

The most important thing to recognize about Experimental Elixir is that you make them in advance, and each of them remain accessible until your next long rest.

Main problem is that the Madness hurts a bit and that the boosts don't really hold up compared to just a pure barbarian in durability or damage output.

[Arkhios]

Main problem is that the Madness hurts a bit and that the boosts don't really hold up compared to just a pure barbarian in durability or damage output.

As a Variant Human, "16, 14, 14, 13, 9, 8" is fine as is, and doesn't hurt barbarian as much as people are inclined to believe.

I'm not saying this would be particularly optimal combination, I'm just saying it's not that bad.

[MaxWilson]

Main problem is that the Madness hurts a bit and that the boosts don't really hold up compared to just a pure barbarian in durability or damage output.

Durability, maybe not, but damage output? A Barb 5/Artillerist X spewing out 3d8 or 6d8 at-will in an AoE on a bonus action is better or much better (respectively) than anything a Barbarian can natively do with its bonus action.

The MADness isn't a huge concern. Even if you leave INT at 13-14 it won't hurt your damage output much.

I'm not a Barb player at heart but frankly the idea of playing a Barb/Artillerist sounds kind of awesome! Black is probably a fine rating for this combo.

[ZorroGames]

Snipped and new thread started.

[MaxWilson]

I see that Artificer/Warlock is currently rated as purple due to MADness whereas Fighter is rated blue due to the possibility of Action Surge--but they're equally MAD, and Artillerist has a pretty good bonus action already and a fairly limited pool of good actions, so if anything I'd swap them around.

By dipping Warlock 2 you can get a bunch of low-level spell slots with which to fuel your flamethrowers, and you can leave Int low (14ish) and focus on boosting Cha until you can pick up a Headband of Intellect at level 16 (Artificer 14/Warlock 2). Your flamethrowers are save-for-half anyway, not save-for-none, so having a DC slightly lower than otherwise hurts less than normal.

In return you get a strong at-will action to go with your strong quasi-at-will bonus action, and if you go Hexblade you pick up a nova capability as well which goes very well with your ability to forge tons of Wands of Magic Missiles (2/week for 100 gp each). By 13th level, your Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile VII combo inflicts [9 x (d4+6)] (76) points of auto-hit force damage, and Wands of Magic Missile require no attunement so you can carry dozens of them if you want to. The rest of the time, you can Agonizing Repelling Blast enemies into bad terrain or spell AoEs (including from your own Webs) and then hose them down with between 2d8 (9) and 6d8 (27) AoE damage, Dex save for half.

I can understand why MADness might keep this combination black, but surely it's not giving you you less Fighter gives you for the same investment? It's not like you have the spell slots to afford to Action Surge big spell combos, and you already have Con save proficiency from Artificer, and Second Wind is peanuts.

Fighter 2: +Action Surge, +heavy armor ("needs" Str), +Defense style or optional +Dueling/Archery for Battlesmith.
Warlock 2: +2 turrets per short rest, strong at-will control and damage action, additional spells learned (Wrathful Smite/Hex/Armor of Agathys/Expeditious Retreat all attractive options), patron options (Hexblade for nova capability, or Cthulock if you like telepathy, Fiendlock for even more anti-horde temp HP, etc.).

I feel that Fighter deserves black or perhaps blue for Battlesmith whereas Warlock deserves black or perhaps blue for Artillerist. Warlock is definitely not worse overall.

[AgenderArcee]

On the subject of Artificer/Warlock, I've also seen some discussion on using short rest slots to get extra Experimental Elixirs as an Alchemist.

[PeteNutButter]

I see that Artificer/Warlock is currently rated as purple due to MADness whereas Fighter is rated blue due to the possibility of Action Surge--but they're equally MAD, and Artillerist has a pretty good bonus action already and a fairly limited pool of good actions, so if anything I'd swap them around.

By dipping Warlock 2 you can get a bunch of low-level spell slots with which to fuel your flamethrowers, and you can leave Int low (14ish) and focus on boosting Cha until you can pick up a Headband of Intellect at level 16 (Artificer 14/Warlock 2). Your flamethrowers are save-for-half anyway, not save-for-none, so having a DC slightly lower than otherwise hurts less than normal.

In return you get a strong at-will action to go with your strong quasi-at-will bonus action, and if you go Hexblade you pick up a nova capability as well which goes very well with your ability to forge tons of Wands of Magic Missiles (2/week for 100 gp each). By 13th level, your Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile VII combo inflicts [9 x (d4+6)] (76) points of auto-hit force damage, and Wands of Magic Missile require no attunement so you can carry dozens of them if you want to. The rest of the time, you can Agonizing Repelling Blast enemies into bad terrain or spell AoEs (including from your own Webs) and then hose them down with between 2d8 (9) and 6d8 (27) AoE damage, Dex save for half.

I can understand why MADness might keep this combination black, but surely it's not giving you you less Fighter gives you for the same investment? It's not like you have the spell slots to afford to Action Surge big spell combos, and you already have Con save proficiency from Artificer, and Second Wind is peanuts.

Fighter 2: +Action Surge, +heavy armor ("needs" Str), +Defense style or optional +Dueling/Archery for Battlesmith.
Warlock 2: +2 turrets per short rest, strong at-will control and damage action, additional spells learned (Wrathful Smite/Hex/Armor of Agathys/Expeditious Retreat all attractive options), patron options (Hexblade for nova capability, or Cthulock if you like telepathy, Fiendlock for even more anti-horde temp HP, etc.).

I feel that Fighter deserves black or perhaps blue for Battlesmith whereas Warlock deserves black or perhaps blue for Artillerist. Warlock is definitely not worse overall.

Fighter is the least MAD class. Every character needs a decent str or dex for AC, plus con for HP, and that's all a fighter needs. He does not "need" str, unless you prefer that over dex, but that's just a 1 for 1 swap.

You're talking about a cool niche build that comes online at level 13. The added turrets per short rest could be useful, but are they necessary? I guess it depends on how much your DM is turret slapping. YMMV

In the meantime you'd be losing at least 5 attribute points for an otherwise useless attribute, and going to be behind in almost every way for the bulk of your career. A few niche abilities synergizing doesn't necessarily raise a class's rating.

Fighter dip is easy, and hard to screw up. You don't have to plan it, and it doesn't make your character weaker at its primary job. It's probably best for the fighting style on a battle smith where action surge is just two more attacks. On the other hand, you'd have to be very careful not to make your character much weaker with a dip in a warlock (or any other MAD class). I've seen a lot of late game MAD builds and they often end up with the player talking every week about how just wait until I"m level x... and then the campaign ends before we get there.

Purple rating is not a death sentence.

I've played many purple MC combinations. They just take some experience and knowledge to work around their weaknesses.

[sambojin]

Kind of surprised that a fighter/druid is rated so low. At least for a dexxy fighter with no metal armour requirements.

After about level 11/12, those wildshapes from moon start looking great. So does all the magic. And the guidance cantrip.

Even with a two level dip, you get some pretty hefty attacks with your extra attacks, with some free HP to boot. No, they're not great at the +to-hit side of things, but they can be alright for combat sustain. You do get a tiny bit of 30/60' ranged restrain-on-hit and poison damage and wall walk (Giant Spider), or 2d6+4 damage attacks (Brown Bear) or 2d6+3 damage pack tactics attacks (Dire Wolf), so it's up to you to make sure at least some of them hit. There's even a bit of 15' range restrain-on-hit with the Giant Octopus machine-gun at Moon Druid 4, where you just keep hentai'ing something to death after the first hit, because +5 to-hit with advantage isn't actually that bad. Everyone else gets advantage against them too.

Three level dip? With low Wis? Ummm... You get spells and stuff. Pass Without Trace, Hold Person (hope for autocrit hits next turn, but don't expect them), Healing Spirit (everyone loves HP, especially you), Spike Growth. Whatever.

With a six level dip, things start getting silly (which they should at lvl17-18).
I'm not precisely sure how many times you can trigger an Auroch's or Giant Elk's charge bonus, but it doesn't seem to have limits, just that you move towards something for 20' and hit it with a charge/gore/ram attack in the same turn. Which you will. And hit it repeatedly at +7 or +6. So, not great, but OK'ish, especially considering you have ways of tripping or adding +to-hit or gaining advantage as a fighter, and the wildshapes include more proning as well.

Or have some silly poison shooting with a Giant Spitting Lizard. If there is a horde of low AC mooks that need mowing down, 3x poison spit (hits two adjacent targets), possibly action surged, may very well do it. Or be kind of fun, even if it doesn't. Eldritch Blasters, eat your heart out!

At an eight level dip, have flying as your capstone, instead of another attack. This kind of flying. Quetzalcoatlus 3x dive attacks? Action surged? Yep. That's 3x 6d6+2 attacks, doubled for AS, and they're compatible with manoeuvre dice (which you kind of want at +4 to-hit). Hey, you save a feat, because you can owl-move away from there with no opportunity attacks against you. Or, you know, just grapple them, fly up, and drop them to their death. That could work too.

Plenty of magic by then too. Like, useful'ish magic. Polymorphic magic for being giant apes and t-rexs with extra attacks. And other stuff too. Healing, stealth things, annoyance bonus action damage, fun movement bonus summons, a tiny bit of lockdown. Whatever. There's quite a bit there that doesn't really need much Wisdom.

A beast's single attacks all "attack action'able attacks", so work with Extra Attack, even if you can't do it with the multiattack included in many forms (they're a different type of action) . It let's you go from sword'n'board to pseudo-two-hander, twice per short rest, whenever you want. And even a really big two-hander a couple of times a day as well with Polymorph.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/05...ra-attack/amp/

I'm not saying it's perfect. But it's not red for the last 8-9 levels of fighter. Nor are most full casters.

[PeteNutButter]

Kind of surprised that a fighter/druid is rated so low. At least for a dexxy fighter with no metal armour requirements.

After about level 11/12, those wildshapes from moon start looking great. So does all the magic. And the guidance cantrip.

Even with a two level dip, you get some pretty hefty attacks with your extra attacks, with some free HP to boot. No, they're not great at the +to-hit side of things, but they can be alright for combat sustain. You do get a tiny bit of 30/60' ranged restrain-on-hit and poison damage, or 2d6+4 damage attacks, or 2d6+3 damage pack tactics attacks, so it's up to you to make sure at least some of them hit. There's even a bit of 15' range restrain-on-hit with the Giant Octopus machine-gun, where you just keep hentai'ing something to death after the first hit, because +5 to-hit with advantage isn't actually that bad. Everyone else gets advantage against them too.

With a six level dip, things start getting silly (which they should at lvl17-18).
I'm not precisely sure how many times you can trigger an Auroch's or Giant Elk's charge bonus, but it doesn't seem to have limits, just that you move towards something for 20' and hit it with a charge/ram attack in the same turn. Which you will. And hit it repeatedly at +7 or +6. So, not great, but OK'ish, especially considering you have ways of tripping or adding +to-hit or gaining advantage as a fighter, and the wildshapes include more proning as well.

Or have some silly poison shooting with a Giant Spitting Lizard. If there is a horde of mooks that need mowing down, 3x poison spit (hits two adjacent targets), possibly action surged, may very well do it. Or be kind of fun, even if it doesn't. Eldritch Blasters, eat your heart out!

At an eight level dip, have flying as your capstone, instead of another attack. This kind of flying. Quetzalcoatlus 3x dive attacks? Action surged? Yep. That's 3x 6d6+2 attacks, doubled for AS, and they're compatible with manoeuvre dice (which you kind of want at +4 to-hit). Hey, you save a feat, because you can owl-move away from there with no opportunity attacks against you. Or, you know, just grapple them, fly up, and drop them to their death. That could work too.

Plenty of magic by then too. Like, useful'ish magic. Polymorphic magic for being giant apes and t-rexs with extra attacks. And other stuff too. Healing, stealth things, annoyance bonus action damage, fun movement bonus summons, a tiny bit of lockdown. Whatever. There's quite a bit there that doesn't really need much Wisdom.

A beast's single attacks all "attack action'able attacks", so work with Extra Attack, even if you can't do it with the multiattack included in many forms (they're a different type of action) . It let's you go from sword'n'board to pseudo-two-hander, twice per short rest, whenever you want. And even a really big two-hander a couple of times a day as well with Polymorph.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/05...ra-attack/amp/

I'm not saying it's perfect. But it's not red for the last 8-9 levels of fighter. Nor are most full casters.

I've said before that fighter after 11 is a fine stretch to go into another class, literally any other class. Druid though, is probably one of the weakest choices. Armor issue aside, the attacks you describe are far weaker than an optimized or even semi-optimized fighter's. Additionally, while polymorph is a great spell you lose all your abilities. A fighter cannot polymorph and make three T-Rex bite attacks.

All that being said, this is all referencing very high level play, which is unfortunately extremely rare. The multiclass ratings (and example builds) are generally aimed at under level 10 or early tier 3. The game simply doesn't get much play at high levels, so it doesn't make sense to judge ratings on those level ranges.

That being said, I'd agree that going druid after level 11 is not red, but for the majority of a fighter's played career, dipping druid will be a significant drawback. Even a dex fighter is going to be potentially losing AC until he manages a 20 dex, which is often later on due to the tasty feat choices of Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert. Any delay in reaching that third attack is going to have to be seriously beneficial. True, druid provides utility, but anyone can dip a class, especially a caster class, and find utility. Nothing meshes well with the two classes that doesn't work better elsewhere. Making multiple wild shape attacks is cool, but ultimately less effective than a GWM fighter, who could have more attacks sooner, have equal or better hit chance, and do far more damage.

[sambojin]

I did place the response in the "after lvl11-12" terms at the start.

Although, if it is a short campaign of lvls 1-10, 2 levels of Moon rarely goes astray somewhere along the line in a fighter build. CR1 beasts aren't really great in combat in tier 2, but they're not terrible if they're virtually free. And free HP is always nice too.

After lvl6 or 8, it does offer a lot of things to be able to do, without necessarily whiffing at them. The lower to-hit of wildshape alongside a single extra attack isn't exactly a bad combo when it can put extra conditions on the enemy. Even if it's just proning, or web restraining an action out of one enemy as you weak-sauce attack/threaten/sentinel another. Saves plenty of superiority dice for real nova'able encounters (even if you used one to precision hit with a web or to trip stuff, etc), or it just boosts your EK magic by a few full-caster slots/lvls while saving a few shield casts due to the free HP. It doesn't really make you that much worse of a fighter, by and large, even compared to an optimized one. It just gives you plenty more things to do, and plenty more situations that you're pretty good at, or are at least OK'ish in.

Being able to just yolo some encounters as a dire-wolf with a feat or two and double attacks is nice as well. Maybe use advantage or a superiority die to hit, maybe go for a double trip chance, maybe 1/2 move someone out of the way, maybe just body-block and let people hide behind you. Whatever's your thing. Take that, healer monkey caster in my party, that now has more spell slots to do actually useful stuff with, even at a useful DC! It didn't cost me a thing, and I can do it six times a day! Hell, I can just web something, re-transform from a spider into another spider, and lock down that thing for you again, next turn, so this encounter is moot! Hahahahahaaaaa.....

Though, again, this is on the basis of "not going to get to lvl11", because if you are, run straight with Fighter until then and don't look back.


((other funny stuff from fighter 6-8'ish/moon druid 2. I'm assuming about 14Wis in the build. But for the first level of druid you get the options of (choose three thereof, and four at Moon 2):

Always get a magic weapon from Shillelagh, because in some campaigns you don't (stacks great with PAM and Sentinel).

Always not be bad at important stuff from Guidance. It's important that your team isn't bad at stuff.

Always be able to lockdown those super high Dex, very low Strength, annoying thingies in encounters with Entangle. Even with low Wis.

Always have food from Goodberries, and therefore about +30HP in the party, on top of your +50-+180HP from wildshape if you want it. Makes great gifts to anyone for talky stuff as well. And for tomorrow's healing cast today for downtime.

Have +10' movement from Longstrider. Because, someone will need that. No concentration, so whoever, even you.

You have Fog Cloud if you want it. The stuff heavily obscured does is ridiculous.

Absorb Elements. Because you are actually a great person to hit with huge amounts of elemental damage at this level. Why not 1/2 or 1/4 that damage, no save or with?

You can be the yo-yo healer. Yes, you've probably got some rather nice damaging things to do with you bonus action. But I bet having the rogue or wizard or cleric on their feet again is better than another xbow shot or PAM buttslap. So, feel free to prepare Healing Word and still be able to chop some stuff up on your turn.


Anyway, most of this is just to show that it's not like that first level dip is wasted on a fighter, of whatever subclass. Druid 1 is still OK, and you can change your spells day by day. But Moon Druid 2 is where the "I certainly couldn't do that before as a fighter, and I'm kinda a better fighter now I can" begins. You can even start as Druid 2 and then dump the next 6-8 levels into Fighter. Works fine either way))

[MaxWilson]

Fighter is the least MAD class. Every character needs a decent str or dex for AC, plus con for HP, and that's all a fighter needs. He does not "need" str, unless you prefer that over dex, but that's just a 1 for 1 swap.

You're talking about a cool niche build that comes online at level 13. The added turrets per short rest could be useful, but are they necessary? I guess it depends on how much your DM is turret slapping. YMMV

Comes online at level 5 actually. Levels 1-3 are straight Artillerist, then Hex 2. It's even better at high levels, but don't mistake that for "not coming online." A Fighter 1/Artificer 4 would have 4 first level slots and AC 21ish in plate+shield, whereas the artywarlock 3/2 has 6 first level slots + 2 more per short rest, Wrathful Smite/Hex/Shield/THP turrets/etc. to make good use of those slots, and AC 19ish in half-plate. The Fighter variant is not better than the warlock variant--they should be the same color, either both blue or both black.

In the meantime you'd be losing at least 5 attribute points for an otherwise useless attribute, and going to be behind in almost every way for the bulk of your career. A few niche abilities synergizing doesn't necessarily raise a class's rating.

Er, no. You're waaaaay ahead in spell slots by levels 4-5, Charisma isn't useless to you (Agonizing Repelling Blast is a great control action and Artificers even have Web to synergize with it), and you're not more behind than the Fighter variant is because you're both missing out on the same number of Artificer levels.

Fighter dip is easy, and hard to screw up. You don't have to plan it, and it doesn't make your character weaker at its primary job. It's probably best for the fighting style on a battle smith where action surge is just two more attacks. On the other hand, you'd have to be very careful not to make your character much weaker with a dip in a warlock (or any other MAD class). I've seen a lot of late game MAD builds and they often end up with the player talking every week about how just wait until I"m level x... and then the campaign ends before we get there.

Purple rating is not a death sentence.

I've played many purple MC combinations. They just take some experience and knowledge to work around their weaknesses.

Fighter sounds purpleto me by these criteria. It's equally easy to mess up. In what way will I be glad to be e.g. a Fighter 2/Artillerist 7 instead of an Artillerist 9? Now I can... throw Action Surged Shatter x2 instead of Fireball, while having weaker turrets and fewer spell slots? How is that an improvement?

I'm not saying Artificer/Warlock is a must-have, I'm saying that Artificer/Fighter is worse or at best maybe competitive with it, and should not be rated two colors higher.

[Dork_Forge]

Comes online at level 5 actually. Levels 1-3 are straight Artillerist, then Hex 2. It's even better at high levels, but don't mistake that for "not coming online." A Fighter 1/Artificer 4 would have 4 first level slots and AC 21ish in plate+shield, whereas the artywarlock 3/2 has 6 first level slots + 2 more per short rest, Wrathful Smite/Hex/Shield/THP turrets/etc. to make good use of those slots, and AC 19ish in half-plate. The Fighter variant is not better than the warlock variant--they should be the same color, either both blue or both black.



Er, no. You're waaaaay ahead in spell slots by levels 4-5, Charisma isn't useless to you (Agonizing Repelling Blast is a great control action and Artificers even have Web to synergize with it), and you're not more behind than the Fighter variant is because you're both missing out on the same number of Artificer levels.



Fighter sounds purpleto me by these criteria. It's equally easy to mess up. In what way will I be glad to be e.g. a Fighter 2/Artillerist 7 instead of an Artillerist 9? Now I can... throw Action Surged Shatter x2 instead of Fireball, while having weaker turrets and fewer spell slots? How is that an improvement?

I'm not saying Artificer/Warlock is a must-have, I'm saying that Artificer/Fighter is worse or at best maybe competitive with it, and should not be rated two colors higher.

I think maybe Warlock could be moved up to black, but I'm not seeing the blue here. It may not be more MAD on paper but in practice it is, you still need 14 Dex for your suggestion (which an Artificer will want anyway and satisfies the MC criterai for Fighter) but then need that Cha on top. You CAN do Eldritch Blast shenanigans, but you'll need a higher Cha to make it worthwhile (otherwise you may as well be using an Art cantrip/Arcane Firearm) and Wrathful Smite would be keyed off a mediocre at best stat. Hexblade's Curse is a nice ability but unless you have a generous DM that rules the Turrets attacks as your own it does little for the Artillerist.


Second Wind isn't great but a Fighting Style is always valuable and Action Surge (besides being the ultimate nova ability) would allow you to summon a turret on your first round and still cast a spell/attack (they last an hour but getting caught without it wouldn't be too uncommon).

I could maybe see arguing for Fighter to come down to black as Warlock goes up, but it's really is too MAD to go for unless you want to do the Coffeelock thing (or want to have turrets ALL the time).

[MaxWilson]

I could maybe see arguing for Fighter to come down to black as Warlock goes up, but it's really is too MAD to go for unless you want to do the Coffeelock thing (or want to have turrets ALL the time).

Thus is what I've been doing the whole time--I've repeatedly argued that they should either both be blue or both black, but that a two color gap in favor of Artificer/Fighter is unjustified.

I think you are underestimating Repelling Blast's utility and overestimating the "need" for big numbers on your character sheet, but I'm less interested in fighting for a high rating for warlock than in pointing out how overtated the Artificer/Fighter is by this guide. Telling someone that a mediocre combo is excellent is a worse sin IMO than underrating a good combo.

[sambojin]

More or less what I'm arguing for Fighter/Druid. Certainly not red. Probably black'ish.

Because the one thing you actually want as a fighter is more things to do with your combat routine, safely and not having to gear/feat around it, and maybe having a bit of (possibly extra) magic. And this gives you that, no matter what subclass.

It's not a "bad" MC, but it certainly isn't optimal (blue/ lightblue/ gold). It's just hard to see how it would be purple (circumstantial), when the circumstances you'd want to use it in (to negate hitpoint loss in an encounter or three per day, and having 2-4 more combat options/condition givers that aren't "bad" and cost very little resources on a lvl6-8 Fighter chassis) come up every day. Giant Spider: good. Dire Wolf: good. Deinonychus: Good. Warhorse: Good. Even Giant Hyena isn't bad with extra attacks to proc the bonus move/attack.
Everything else is just options and gravy, plus a bit of magic for fun. Certainly black, not red.

[MaxWilson]

More or less what I'm arguing for Fighter/Druid. Certainly not red. Probably black'ish.

Yep. Fighter/Shepherd for example is a pretty strong alt-Ranger, arguably better than the base Ranger in Tier 2+. (Fighter 1-5 then Shepherd 1-6 then whatever.)

[Dork_Forge]

Thus is what I've been doing the whole time--I've repeatedly argued that they should either both be blue or both black, but that a two color gap in favor of Artificer/Fighter is unjustified.

I think you are underestimating Repelling Blast's utility and overestimating the "need" for big numbers on your character sheet, but I'm less interested in fighting for a high rating for warlock than in pointing out how overtated the Artificer/Fighter is by this guide. Telling someone that a mediocre combo is excellent is a worse sin IMO than underrating a good combo.

Yeah I can definitely agree that a two colour gap is a bit much.

I'm not underestimating Repelling Blast, it's certainly useful but there's a difference in big numbers and using a +2 at best stat for your main attacking action. Unless you burn ASIs trying to bring that up it will just become a worse and worse option to try and hit opponents with (and you can't really afford to not bump Int).

[MaxWilson]

Yeah I can definitely agree that a two colour gap is a bit much.

I'm not underestimating Repelling Blast, it's certainly useful but there's a difference in big numbers and using a +2 at best stat for your main attacking action. Unless you burn ASIs trying to bring that up it will just become a worse and worse option to try and hit opponents with (and you can't really afford to not bump Int).

You actually can afford not to bump Int, it's not a big deal. For example, say I play a variant human with 27 point buy:

Str 8
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 16 (15)
Wis 13
Cha 16 (15)
Mobile feat

At level 1 I have to rely on ranged Artificer cantrips and my Mobile feat to keep me alive despite my crummy AC 15ish (scale armor + shield), then if that feels insufficient I can immediately go Forge 1 to boost my AC to 19ish (enchanted chain mail + shield), otherwise I try to hit Artillerist 3 ASAP, and get Hexblade 2 and Forge Cleric 1 online sometime betweens levels 3-7ish depending on how the campaign is going, so I can do things like e.g. put up a THP Turret at the beginning of a day (will get the slot back on the next short rest) and spam Bless in every combat (especially if there's a Sharpshooter in the party who really needs it). It delays my access to high-level Artificer abilities, but so would a Fighter 2 dip, and I get more out of it including more spell slots than a pure Artificer and a better at-will action.

I can leave Int at 16 forever and barely notice a difference. My flamethrower will be DC 17 at 20th level instead of DC 19, but who cares? It's a save-for-half spell, so 10% of the time I'll do half damage instead of full damage--I probably won't even notice the DPR difference in actual play, compared to the d20 variability. And my best Artificer spells are ones that aren't dependent on Int at all, like Wall of Force, Fabricate, and Tiny Servant, and I have MORE spell slots than a pure Artificer to use on those spells, and more total spells known.

As for levels below 20 and spells that do have saves, ask yourself which one has more of an impact on actual play: a DC 15 Web spell, or a DC 14 Web spell that you repeatedly blast enemies back into to force multiple saves and multiple lost actions?

Maximizing the numbers on a character sheet isn't really that important compared to getting the right capabilities.

[Dork_Forge]

You actually can afford not to bump Int, it's not a big deal. For example, say I play a variant human with 27 point buy:

Str 8
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 16 (15)
Wis 13
Cha 16 (15)
Mobile feat

At level 1 I have to rely on ranged Artificer cantrips and my Mobile feat to keep me alive despite my crummy AC 15ish (scale armor + shield), then if that feels insufficient I can immediately go Forge 1 to boost my AC to 19ish (enchanted chain mail + shield), otherwise I try to hit Artillerist 3 ASAP, and get Hexblade 2 and Forge Cleric 1 online sometime betweens levels 3-7ish depending on how the campaign is going, so I can do things like e.g. put up a THP Turret at the beginning of a day (will get the slot back on the next short rest) and spam Bless in every combat (especially if there's a Sharpshooter in the party who really needs it). It delays my access to high-level Artificer abilities, but so would a Fighter 2 dip, and I get more out of it including more spell slots than a pure Artificer and a better at-will action.

I can leave Int at 16 forever and barely notice a difference. My flamethrower will be DC 17 at 20th level instead of DC 19, but who cares? It's a save-for-half spell, so 10% of the time I'll do half damage instead of full damage--I probably won't even notice the DPR difference in actual play, compared to the d20 variability. And my best Artificer spells are ones that aren't dependent on Int at all, like Wall of Force, Fabricate, and Tiny Servant, and I have MORE spell slots than a pure Artificer to use on those spells, and more total spells known.

As for levels below 20 and spells that do have saves, ask yourself which one has more of an impact on actual play: a DC 15 Web spell, or a DC 14 Web spell that you repeatedly blast enemies back into to force multiple saves and multiple lost actions?

Maximizing the numbers on a character sheet isn't really that important compared to getting the right capabilities.

And that proposed build leaves you with dumped Str AND Dex (so negative one of the most common saves, initiative, a bunch of skills and probably some of your tools) and you're ONLY at 15AC for carrying a shield and getting disadvantage on stealth (can be boosted with infusions). I don't want to get into the merit of going Hexblade and Forge Cleric on an Artificer, I don't like it personally but we clearly have different build philosphies.

By leaving your Int at 16 you're preparing less spells, getting less uses out of your Flash of Genius (and it would be a lower bonus too), your turrets will be less effective (it may be save for half, but it's also fire damage and it applies to less temp hp too), anything you do that uses a modifier will just be worse. Bless is a good use of a spell, but is just one action and you won't even get it until you grab that Forge Cleric level. A +3 in Cha for EB makes it more relevant, I didn't realise you'd go for a build that was this MAD, though EB won't gain any benefit at all from Arcane Firearm.

You seem to have a focus on higher level play, even a straight Artificer wouldn't get access to the lowest level spell you mention (Tiny Servant) until 9th and your build pushes that back to 12th, but unless you start at tier 3 you need to actually survive to that level. I can't see Wall of Force on the Artificer spell list?

1 lower on your DC and to hit doesn't seem like much, but it IS a general lower effectiveness of, well pretty much all your abilities and you're essentially doubling down on that but running two spellcasting classes side by side with meh casting stats. You're lowering your chances of not only hitting to knock them back, but also keeping them in the Web.

This character will probably still get things done, but I'm not seeing it be as effective as either a straight Artificer or if you want more slots just dipping Wizard instead. Then your stats aren't spread paper thin, you have more slots, slots on one SR a day and a whole bunch of spells known. You don't get Hexblade's stuff, but a lot of that is redundant anyway (proficiencies, Shield), you won't really be making weapon attacks and HBC is iffy to work with turrets anyway.

[MaxWilson]

Wall of Force is an Artillerist spell, not base Artificer.

I am interested in whole-lifetime play, which includes high level. If something is viable at low levels only but bad at level 20 (like Moon Druid/Barbarian) or good at high levels but bad at low levels, I am not interested in that build. Is your philosophy exclusively focused on low-level play?

I'm also interested in characters that play well in a team and also solo, because you never know what scenario a character is going to wind up in.

I don't know why you're making big deal about AC 15 => 19 (+5 on Shield).

Flash of Genius is the only example you've named where you really care about Int, and I wouldn't boost Int just for extra Flash of Genius, although I might spend an infusion eventually on it at high level. It's a good feature but not that good, and it's a fixed bonus so its value isn't really quadratic in Int: if a +3 isn't going to cut it anyway you just don't spend your reaction on using it, so really its value is linear in Int. It's not like the Paladin's constant +Cha to saves where you really do want it maxed out immediately so it can protect you (and friends) forever.

(And if you really want to you can keep boosting Int to 20 anyway, I just don't think it's worth it given the Artificer spell list and lack of high-level game-changing spells.)

1 lower on your DC and to hit doesn't seem like much, but it IS a general lower effectiveness of, well pretty much all your abilities and you're essentially doubling down on that but running two spellcasting classes side by side with meh casting stats. You're lowering your chances of not only hitting to knock them back, but also keeping them in the Web.

This isn't true. More knockback = more chance to keep them in the web, not less. You're focusing too much on DC and not on the actual effects of the abilities. E.g. 90% * 200% = 180%, not 90%, but you're too concerned about the 90%.

BTW if it's someone else's spell effect you're trying to keep a big bad guy inside of, like a wizard's Evard's Black Tentacles instead of your own Web, Hex (disadvantage to Strength) + Eldritch Blast hampers the enemy enormously more than a some little Artificer cantrip. Good teamwork there.

This character will probably still get things done, but I'm not seeing it be as effective as either a straight Artificer or if you want more slots just dipping Wizard instead. Then your stats aren't spread paper thin, you have more slots, slots on one SR a day and a whole bunch of spells known. You don't get Hexblade's stuff, but a lot of that is redundant anyway (proficiencies, Shield), you won't really be making weapon attacks and HBC is iffy to work with turrets anyway.

A 3-level wizard dip won't have a good at-will action, and unless the DM is using spell points it won't have as many spell slots for turrets/Shield/Bless/etc. If you're going to go wizard, might as well go full wizard so you get Simulacrum/Wish/etc., which means you might as well not go Artificer at all and we're talking about a completely different build. Artificer is more like a Paladin than a wizard.

[Dork_Forge]

Wall of Force is an Artillerist spell, not base Artificer.

I am interested in whole-lifetime play, which includes high level. If something is viable at low levels only but bad at level 20 (like Moon Druid/Barbarian) or good at high levels but bad at low levels, I am not interested in that build. Is your philosophy exclusively focused on low-level play?

I'm also interested in characters that play well in a team and also solo, because you never know what scenario a character is going to wind up in.

I don't know why you're making big deal about AC 15 => 19 (+5 on Shield).

Flash of Genius is the only example you've named where you really care about Int, and I wouldn't boost Int just for extra Flash of Genius, although I might spend an infusion eventually on it at high level. It's a good feature but not that good, and it's a fixed bonus so its value isn't really quadratic in Int: if a +3 isn't going to cut it anyway you just don't spend your reaction on using it, so really its value is linear in Int. It's not like the Paladin's constant +Cha to saves where you really do want it maxed out immediately so it can protect you (and friends) forever.

(And if you really want to you can keep boosting Int to 20 anyway, I just don't think it's worth it given the Artificer spell list and lack of high-level game-changing spells.)



This isn't true. More knockback = more chance to keep them in the web, not less. You're focusing too much on DC and not on the actual effects of the abilities. E.g. 90% * 200% = 180%, not 90%, but you're too concerned about the 90%.

BTW if it's someone else's spell effect you're trying to keep a big bad guy inside of, like a wizard's Evard's Black Tentacles instead of your own Web, Hex (disadvantage to Strength) + Eldritch Blast hampers the enemy enormously more than a some little Artificer cantrip. Good teamwork there.



A 3-level wizard dip won't have a good at-will action, and unless the DM is using spell points it won't have as many spell slots for turrets/Shield/Bless/etc. If you're going to go wizard, might as well go full wizard so you get Simulacrum/Wish/etc., which means you might as well not go Artificer at all and we're talking about a completely different build. Artificer is more like a Paladin than a wizard.

Thanks I knew I was missing something.

No my philosophy is lifetime with a focus in general more on the most played levels. In general I like my characters to have lots things to do just as a personal preference for play, I find it more fun.

I put emphasis on the AC15 because spreading your stats so thin kneecapped your AC to mediocre. The more you use Shield the less you can do other things (though you'd certainly get the mileage out of those short rest slots).

When you bump Int you don't just get more Flash of Genius, you also make it better. I'm not sure why you seem to be undervaluing it so much though, its a bounded accuracy system and a fixed bonus to a save. It's not on all the time like a Paladins aura, but it's more flexible and stacks with said aura. Unlike a Paladin you don't have to pump a secondary stat for it either, it's attached to your primary for just about everything else.

On the value of boosting Int in general, I'm not sure there's anything I could say to convince you of its value. You're already aware that the entire class keys off it, if that's not enough than nothing will be.

My point was that not only is your DC lower for the spell, but your to hit with EB for the knockback would also be sub par.

If you want to talk about party interactions then there could very well just be a Warlock in the party that would be better suited to using EB than you. You're comparing spell+loaded cantrip Vs only a cantrip. If you went Artillerist then the natural inclination of the subclass is blasting. If you want control then a damage boosted Thorn Whip isn't a bad option.

I don't understand the if you dip Wizard you might as well just play a Wizard comment. It makes no sense to me and I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to Warlock here. The Wizard dip would still play like an Artificer for the most part but your build seems to just be like playing Warlock with turrets that you are happy settling for half damage or less with.

I guess that might be a key difference in how we do things, I believe a dip shouldn't dictate the build whereas you're happy to let the core class suffer so to speak and play to the dip.

[MaxWilson]

I put emphasis on the AC15 because spreading your stats so thin kneecapped your AC to mediocre.

Until you gain 300 XP, yes. Why is that a big deal, especially since you've got this excellent alternate defense of mobility? If you find that AC 15 isn't a big deal (and it often isn't, especially with ranged cantrips) you can keep that AC 15 for a while until it starts to become a bigger deal, and then improve it immediately to AC 19 on your next level-up. Again, why are you making a big deal of that, especially on a character who has the option to do things like kite at range or Dodge + bonus action Flamethrower?

The more you use Shield the less you can do other things (though you'd certainly get the mileage out of those short rest slots).

Yes, I know, which is why I haven't emphasized Shield, just mentioned it occasionally in passing. Shield doesn't get really good anyway until you have a high base AC--once you have AC 19+, that +5 becomes a bigger deal because it lets you take bigger risks without worrying.

When you bump Int you don't just get more Flash of Genius, you also make it better. I'm not sure why you seem to be undervaluing it so much though, its a bounded accuracy system and a fixed bonus to a save. It's not on all the time like a Paladins aura, but it's more flexible and stacks with said aura. Unlike a Paladin you don't have to pump a secondary stat for it either, it's attached to your primary for just about everything else.

I've already explained why I see its value as linear, not quadratic, so I guess we just disagree here. It's not worth 2 ASIs but if you want to spend those 2 ASIs and leave Cha at 16, you can afford to--I just don't think it's worth it given the Artificer spell list.

I guess that might be a key difference in how we do things, I believe a dip shouldn't dictate the build whereas you're happy to let the core class suffer so to speak and play to the dip.

The difference is that I look at a total package, not just numbers on the character sheet. I recognize that 90% of two excellent and synergistic packages adds up to 180%, which is more than 100% of one excellent package. When you say things like "your Repelling Blast is sub-par," I say, "You've got up to 4 chances to knockback an opponent at eventually up to +9 to hit, or +11 if you care enough to spend an infusion on it, and that gives you an enormously better chance of keeping an enemy in your DC 17 web than a pure Artificer would have of keeping an enemy in a DC 19 web." You're ignoring the math and looking only at the numbers on the character sheet, but okay, you do you. I've said what I had to say on the subject.

[Dork_Forge]

Until you gain 300 XP, yes. Why is that a big deal, especially since you've got this excellent alternate defense of mobility? If you find that AC 15 isn't a big deal (and it often isn't, especially with ranged cantrips) you can keep that AC 15 for a while until it starts to become a bigger deal, and then improve it immediately to AC 19 on your next level-up. Again, why are you making a big deal of that, especially on a character who has the option to do things like kite at range or Dodge + bonus action Flamethrower?



Yes, I know, which is why I haven't emphasized Shield, just mentioned it occasionally in passing. Shield doesn't get really good anyway until you have a high base AC--once you have AC 19+, that +5 becomes a bigger deal because it lets you take bigger risks without worrying.



I've already explained why I see its value as linear, not quadratic, so I guess we just disagree here. It's not worth 2 ASIs but if you want to spend those 2 ASIs and leave Cha at 16, you can afford to--I just don't think it's worth it given the Artificer spell list.



The difference is that I look at a total package, not just numbers on the character sheet. I recognize that 90% of two excellent and synergistic packages adds up to 180%, which is more than 100% of one excellent package. When you say things like "your Repelling Blast is sub-par," I say, "You've got up to 4 chances to knockback an opponent at eventually up to +9 to hit, or +11 if you care enough to spend an infusion on it, and that gives you an enormously better chance of keeping an enemy in your DC 17 web than a pure Artificer would have of keeping an enemy in a DC 19 web." You're ignoring the math and looking only at the numbers on the character sheet, but okay, you do you. I've said what I had to say on the subject.

You said it would be 3 Artificer then 2 Warlock 1 Forge Cleric after that, so minimum 1800xp, not 300xp. And at low levels that isn't bad, compare that to a straight Artificer that isn't all over the place and you start to see the issue. Mobility and the Dodge action don't help you on the first turn when you lose initiative and help you a lot less that they would if you had normal AC for an Artificer. I didn't think I made THAT big a deal of it previously, but making AC sacrifices at the deadliest stage of the game doesn't seem like the smallest of things.

We do disagree, to you it's just about spells and that's alright.

I'm ignoring math? You keep jumping back and forth, about what level we are actually talking about here, and it seems to favour whatever point you're making. You won't get 4 chances to knock anyone back until late game if it even goes that high. You won't even get 3 chances until mid tier 3. So realistically you'll be playing with 2 chances to knock back. Meanwhile the straight Artillerist has the option to knockback with a turret and pull with a damage boosted Thorn Whip to manipulate the enemy.

I don't see it as 90% of each (a Warlock is more than 1st level slots and EB), I see it as playing as a Warlock for the most part when most of your levels are in Artificer and wondering why the build isn't an Artificer dip on a Warlock build instead.

It's the only time I've ever seen an argument for leaving your primary stat at +3 and to be honest not really what I'd consider a good example for optimised multiclassing. A Warlock as a turret battery with minimum cha investment sure, but at this rate just play a Warlock.

[MaxWilson]

You said it would be 3 Artificer then 2 Warlock 1 Forge Cleric after that, so minimum 1800xp, not 300xp.

No, I said this:

<<At level 1 I have to rely on ranged Artificer cantrips and my Mobile feat to keep me alive despite my crummy AC 15ish (scale armor + shield), then if that feels insufficient I can immediately go Forge 1 to boost my AC to 19ish (enchanted chain mail + shield), otherwise I try to hit Artillerist 3 ASAP>>

I'm ignoring math? You keep jumping back and forth, about what level we are actually talking about here

Because I don't play in your campaign and I recognize the value of flexibility. If your DM uses lots of mobs, you want AC faster. Otherwise you might have more fun getting Artillerist ASAP. It doesn't really matter which one you do first--choose based on what's happening in-game. Either way you wind up in a good solid place with all of your core synergies in place by level 5-8ish.

and it seems to favour whatever point you're making. You won't get 4 chances to knock anyone back until late game if it even goes that high. You won't even get 3 chances until mid tier 3.

This is factually incorrect. You can have three chances for knockback as early as level 5, and by level 11 (Artillerist 8/Hex 2/Forge 1) you can have four, although one of them is only the Artillerist ballista 5' knockback instead of a warlock 10' knockback.

I don't see it as 90% of each (a Warlock is more than 1st level slots and EB), I see it as playing as a Warlock for the most part when most of your levels are in Artificer and wondering why the build isn't an Artificer dip on a Warlock build instead.

Because THP turrets are fun, and Fabricate/Tiny Servant are fun, and flamethrowers are fun, and so is all the rest of the Artillerist kit--but none of it really cries out for maximizing Int.

It's the only time I've ever seen an argument for leaving your primary stat at +3 and to be honest not really what I'd consider a good example for optimised multiclassing. A Warlock as a turret battery with minimum cha investment sure, but at this rate just play a Warlock.

You also appear to be someone who thinks Paladins must max Str (based on your comments about Aura of Protection and Charisma being a secondary stat), whereas I would leave Str at its initial 16ish value on a Paladin and just take Celestialock levels and/or Divine Soul levels to make Charisma my primary stat instead. Str 16ish is plenty for Paladin melee combat. So, chalk that up as yet another difference of opinion.

[Dork_Forge]

No, I said this:

<<At level 1 I have to rely on ranged Artificer cantrips and my Mobile feat to keep me alive despite my crummy AC 15ish (scale armor + shield), then if that feels insufficient I can immediately go Forge 1 to boost my AC to 19ish (enchanted chain mail + shield), otherwise I try to hit Artillerist 3 ASAP>>



Because I don't play in your campaign and I recognize the value of flexibility. If your DM uses lots of mobs, you want AC faster. Otherwise you might have more fun getting Artillerist ASAP. It doesn't really matter which one you do first--choose based on what's happening in-game. Either way you wind up in a good solid place with all of your core synergies in place by level 5-8ish.



This is factually incorrect. You can have three chances for knockback as early as level 5, and by level 11 (Artillerist 8/Hex 2/Forge 1) you can have four, although one of them is only the Artillerist ballista 5' knockback instead of a warlock 10' knockback.



Because THP turrets are fun, and Fabricate/Tiny Servant are fun, and flamethrowers are fun, and so is all the rest of the Artillerist kit--but none of it really cries out for maximizing Int.



You also appear to be someone who thinks Paladins must max Str (based on your comments about Aura of Protection and Charisma being a secondary stat), whereas I would leave Str at its initial 16ish value on a Paladin and just take Celestialock levels and/or Divine Soul levels to make Charisma my primary stat instead. Str 16ish is plenty for Paladin melee combat. So, chalk that up as yet another difference of opinion.

Apologies on the first part, I was thinking of your breakdown from earlier.

Or just don't have to dump Dex and have good AC from the start, Forge Cleric does just seem to exist to patch the AC.

This is the first time you've mentioned the Ballista, up until now you've just focused on the flamethrower and how it's half damage, so I assumed that's what you'd be using.

You're not using the 5th level feature at all though, instead preferring to spam Eldritch blast or cast non AC/Save spells. Making your turrets more likely to actually do damage/do more damage/give you more temp hp isn't an incentive?

No not at all, I prefer Dexadins personally. I said Cha was a secondary stat because it IS a secondary stat. They're martial halfcasters, they have no way to use Cha for their weapons so yes, it's a secondary stat. Multiclassing into a Sorcerer or Warlock doesn't change that fact for Paladins, you just end up playing a Sorcadin/Padlock with a focus on casting. Maxing your primary stat (or at least going +4) is just good advice in general (especially in an multiclassing optimisers thread), multiclassing to do something completely different than the core class is surely a thing, but I doubt what most people aim for looking at these guides. "Oh you're playing an Artillerist, what's your go to?" "Oh I mostly spam Eldritch Blast."

[MaxWilson]

This is the first time you've mentioned the Ballista, up until now you've just focused on the flamethrower and how it's half damage, so I assumed that's what you'd be using.

Usually, yes, or the THP turret, but when you "impossible" and it's clearly not I feel obliged to point that out. And again, your claim is factually wrong even without force turrets: level 11 is not "mid Tier 3," it's the very beginning of it.

I don't like the Force Ballista option as much as the others, but it's useful occasionally.

You're not using the 5th level feature at all though, instead preferring to spam Eldritch blast or cast non AC/Save spells. Making your turrets more likely to actually do damage/do more damage/give you more temp hp isn't an incentive?

On the contrary, it has its place against mobs when you cast Thunderclap or Fireball. It's not *important*, but it's a nice little bonus in some cases.

Higher DC or +10% more temp HP or to-hit is like that: nice little bonus of you get it for cheap (Headband of Intellect) but not *important*.

"Oh you're playing an Artillerist, what's your go to?" "Oh I mostly spam Eldritch Blast."

Your words, not mine. I'd say "mostly I make weird inventions, Fabricate objects, Web things, shoot lasers, and spew gouts of flame from flamethrowers." But warlock 2's lasers and spell slots make the webs and flamethrowers more effective and more affordable.

[RaNDM]

I'm not quite sure if I agree on Barbarian/Artificer being really that bad to be honest. At least not with Alchemist.

Barbarian 3 / Artificer 5 here. Combining Wolf Totem's advantage to allies with the Battle Smith's Steel Defender is both thematic and a big boost to my defense when I'm using Reckless Attack. Defender can't attack until the round after I enter rage, but that's a turn it can move to flank for our Rogue. When Defender can attack, it provides a nice boost to DPR thanks to the free advantage from Wolf Totem. And at higher levels, the Steel Defender can provide magical healing to allies while I'm raging.

Still not an optimal combo, but it's a very fun build that expands my range of options while raging. It helps that it only requires 13 STR and 13 INT for multiclassing.