Fallacy of Elven Generalist+Domain Wizard "Leapfrog Wizard"

[RedMage125]

There is a common misconception that certain bit of "cheese" regarding wizards can be done to allow a 1st level wizard access to 9th level spells here is dextercorvia explaining the trick in full.
Special credit to forum user Endarire for coining the name "Leapfrog Wizard" to refer to this trick (even though I am debunking the validity of it, it's still a great name for it).

The short version is: Be a Grey Elf Wizard with an INT of 20, and take the Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level at level 1, giving you Elven Generalist Wizard (EGW). Also take the Domain Wizard (DW) variant from Unearthed Arcana. Take a flaw to get an extra feat and take Alacritous Cogitation (AC) from the Complete Mage. Then take Versatile Spellcaster (VS) from Races of the Dragon. Use AC+VS to cast a second level spell, using your DW's ability to "know" the level 2 (L2) spell as soon as you are "able to cast" a spell of that level. Get bonus 2nd level spell slots from high INT, bonus domain spell slot, and EGW spell slot, since that is your new "highest level" of spell. Then use 2 L2 spells to get a L3, and so on, wash-rinse-repeat until you get L9 spells as a 1st level Wizard.

THIS DOES NOT WORK.

There are a number of reasons why it does not work, most of which hinge on a not-thorough reading of the class features and feats in question. I am going to break down the process and explain, on each level, why it fails. In order to do so, I will explain why each step fails, and then move onto the next step, which DOES assume the previous steps did not fail, but for the sake of argument, I am going to act as if the previous step did not fail, to show why the successive ones STILL fail.

DISCLAIMER: I am talking about Rules As Written (RAW) here. Anyone can, of course, feel free to ask their DM to allow it, or alow it themselves as a DM. But I am not discussing houserules. This is what is rules-legal in a strict-RAW game, such as if one was playing in an RPGA or Organized Play game (back when they used 3.5e for such).

Making a Grey Elf Wizard is fine. Grey Elves taking EGW is fine. Taking flaws (assuming your DM allows it) is okay. Alacritous Cogitation DOES, in fact, allow you to qualify as "able to cast spells spontaneously", so you qualify for Versatile Spellcaster. Do note, however, that because VS requires the spontaneous casting of spells, only spell slots that are left empty during spell preparation (as per AC) can be "sacrificed" to cast a higher level spell. This will be important later. Might as well take a second flaw and pick up Heighten Spell.

Step 0: The combination of Elven Generalist Wizard with Domain Wizard. These cannot be used together, but as this is almost a separate argument, I am going to spoiler-block this point.

Spoiler

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Elven Generalist Wizard is an Alternate Class Feature (ACF) for elf wizards. The text says:
"Generalist Wizardry: A 1st-level elf wizard begins play
with one extra 1st-level spell in her spellbook. At each new
wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that
she can cast. This represents the additional elven insight and
experience with arcane magic.
The elf wizard may also prepare one additional spell of
her highest spell level each day. Unlike the specialist wizard
ability, this spell may be of any school.
This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard’s
ability to specialize in a school of magic."

Domain Wizard from Unearthed Arcana is a Class Variant. The text says:
"A wizard who uses the arcane domain system (called a domain
wizard) selects a specifi c arcane domain of spells, much like
a cleric selects a pair of domains associated with his deity. A
domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange
for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead
of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells
with increased power.
Some of the arcane domains described below have the same
name as a divine domain. Regardless of any apparent similarity,
these domains have no connection to one another."

Now, I have heard all the arguments in favor of saying that this combination is legal. And they hinge on the words in domain wizard of "cannot also be a specialist wizard", whereas EGW replaces the ability to specialize.

Fact is, as I have shown from the bolded text, that DW is still specializing, but in a domain instead of a school of magic. The EGW traded away his ability to specialize in a school of magic class feature in favor of the ACF. DW is using a variant form of that same class feature. One that an EGW no longer has. If you do not have "ability to specialize in a school of magic" as a class feature, you are not eligible for a VARIANT of that class feature.

To wit: A Barbarian who is using the Spiritual Totem (Lion) ACF from Complete Champion has traded away his Fast Movement class feature at level 1. Said character CANNOT also take the Lion Totem variant in Unearthed Arcana, which trades away fast movement, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, because he no longer has fast movement as a class feature to give up. But he COULD take the Horse totem from Unearthed Arcana, which trades away uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features. That Horse/Lion barbarian could still take the level 7 ACF from Complete Champion, because that trades away Damage Reduction, but could not take the level 5 ACF in Complete Champion, because he has already traded Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Make sense? Good. Moving on.

Step 1: Prepare your spells for the day. As an EGW/DW with an INT of 20, you have 5 L1 spell slots. At least 2 of which you must leave empty, in order to use the AC+VS combo.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Domain Wizard specifies that the bonus spell per day slot for DW "must be filled with the spell from that level of the domain spell list". Which means THAT slot may not be left empty. EGW says that the character "may also prepare one additional spell of her highest spell level each day". So THAT spell slot may not be left empty. This means that if the EGW/DW is trying to leave ALL her spell slots empty, then she only has 3. Because both of those bonus slots MUST be filled, by the RAW.

Step 2: Spend 2 L1 spells to get a L2 spell slot, and successive bonus spell slots (high INT, DW bonus slot, and EGW bonus slot, which "floats" to L2 because one can now cast L2 spells).

WHY IT FAILS: First of all, VS does not grant you a "spell slot" from burning the 2 L1 spells. You burn two L1 spells to CAST a L2 spell, which must be one that you "know" (more on that later)*. So once that L2 spell is cast, it is in effect and the EGW/DW only has L1 spell slots available.

Second, the assumption that a wizard HAS a L2 spell "known" hinges on the text of the DW which says that she "automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it." HOWEVER, wizard spells "known" are different from sorcerer ones in that a wizard "knows" every spell in her spellbook (and/or has used Spell Mastery on). So does this new L2 spell just "appear" in her spellbook? The assumption for the trick is that as soon as she burns the 2 L1 spells to cast a L2 spell that it may be the L2 spell for her domain, because she now "knows" it. This also flies into the face about rules for the minimum caster level of a spell (PHB, page 171), which state that the minimum caster level for a spell is the lowest caster level that a character of that class may cast a spell (so for wizards a L2 spell has a minimum CL of 3, for sorcs it would be 4). This is also another argument point within itself, so I will address it in a spoiler block at the end. For now, though, let's use a Heightened L1 spell (thanks to Endarire for pointing this out). Since the Leapfrog Wizard is spontaneously casting this spell, it follows the rules for spontaneous spellcasting and metamagic, which means it takes a full-round action. It's still Caster Level 1, but is considered a 2nd level spell, so the DC is 12+INT mod.

Third, the PHB specifies on pages 7-8, that bonus spell slots from high INT for spell levels above 1 are NOT granted until the character is of an appropriate level to cast a spell of that level. They even use Mialee the wizard as the example, and specify that a wizard does not get a bonus L2 spell from high INT until wizard level 3. Not only is that explicit, but we can use the Bard, Ranger, and Paladin as further examples. They eventually get spells with a "0" under a given spell level instead of a "-". This allows them to get a bonus spell slot from a high stat at that level. But until the "-" becomes a "0" or a whole number, a character gets ZERO bonus spell slots for a high stat.

Fourth, a Domain Wizard, as per Unearthed Arcana "prepares and casts spells like a normal wizard." So a DW must rest for 8 hours to refresh her spell slots. At the culmination of that rest, she gets an additional slot of each spell level she can cast. Since she only HAS L1 spell slots, she only GETS a bonus L1 spell slot. Casting a L2 spell by burning 2 L1 slots does not somehow "refresh" the DW, so she gets no bonus L2 spell slot for her domain.

Fifth, an EGW, like mentioned before, may PREPARE one extra spell per day of her highest level spell. Well, she already HAS her bonus EGW spell prepared. There is no "floating" of the EGW's "bonus slot". Like the point for the DW, the EGW is still a wizard and must rest to regain spells. At the culmination of her rest, her highest spell level is L1, so she may prepare and extra L1 spell. There is no reason to assume that the CASTING of a L2 spell suddenly makes that EGW "bonus slot" (heavy sarcastic emphasis there) "float" up to L2. There are no rules to support this claim, and one cannot claim RAW that something is "true" just because of lack of text saying something is false. That way lies Munchkin Fallacy. No, EGW gets to PREPARE one extra spell per day, and that is it.

NOTE: All of this alone is enough to make the Leapfrog Wizard not work. As I said before, I will continue as if the DM ignored all of these RAW factors up until now, and allowed the "trick" to proceed. i will continue to debunk it.

Step 3: Spend two L2 slots to get a L3 slot, with bonus slots.

WHY IT FAILS: Honestly, this step is more of the same. The fact that EGW bonus spell must be "prepared"...the fact that it does not "float"...the fact that the PHB EXPLICITLY says you must be of a level to get normal slots for a spell level before you get bonus slots for high INT...etc.

Step 4: Wash-rinse-repeat the process until you have level 9 spells.

WHY IT FAILS: Ok, still assuming your DM allowed all the other shenanigans, this process would stop at 6th and 7th level spells. Why? Because an INT of 20 doesn't grant a bonus 6th level spell. Even allowing all the shenanigans of the "floating EGW spell slot", and granting the Leapfrog Wizard the bonus DW slot each time they leapfrog the spell levels, and granting the high-INT bonus slots...she now ONLY has the DW bonus slot and the the EGW bonus slot at 6th level. Which means that in order to use the AC+VS trick to cast a 7th level spell (or get a L7 spell slot, since we're hypothetically ignoring why THAT doesn't happen), she has now SPENT her EGW "bonus slot" for the day. Which means the ONLY bonus 7th level spell slot she would get is the one from Domain Wizard.

Now the section on Minimum Caster Level for spells:

Spoiler

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I've heard arguments ranging from "that rule only applies to scrolls" to people actually claiming it only applies to the Fireball spell, which is used as the example. Both of those arguments are bull.

FROM THE PLAYER'S HANDBOOK, page 171:
"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the
caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell
in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the
same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball
to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she
can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)."

From the SRD:
"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level."
Bold added for emphasis, underline for more emphasis. Also added bold to the words "for example", for the people who insist on the ridiculous claim that this rule only applies to the spell Fireball.

So, the minimum caster level in question varies from character to character, based on the class that allows them to cast that spell.

So a Monk 13/Ur-Priest 7 has a minimum caster level for 3rd level spells of 3.
A Wizard 13/Ur-Priest 7, even though he has a MAXIMUM (default) caster level of 13 for his divine spells (half Wiz CL, rounded down+Ur-Priest levels), may cast 3rd level divine spells with a minimum caster level of 3, because 3 is the lowest caster level that an Ur-Priest may cast 3rd level divine spells.

The reason this rule is also mentioned in scrolls is because it affects the price-point of scrolls. An NPC scroll creator/vendor who is a Sorceror with Scribe Scroll will have slightly different prices than what is mentioned in the DMG for the scrolls he makes. But the listed prices for scrolls based on Spell Level in the DMG assumes that the person making the scrolls was the class with the lowest caster level possible (except Flame Strike, which, oddly, is not listed as a 4th level spell, even though it's 4th level for druids).
Note the spell Glibness. It is a 3rd level spell, but the price point for the scroll is 525, instead of 375, like most other 3rd level spells. That is because the spell is ONLY a Bard spell, and minimum CL for L3 Bard spells is 7, while the other spells, which appear on the Wizard spell list, have a minimum CL of 5 for the scroll. The math for a scroll's price (assuming no expensive material component) is 25gpxSpell LevelxCaster Level. If you doubt what I am saying, go check the math for yourself.

CONCLUSION: The "trick" to get 9th level spells as a 1st level Wizard does not work.

HOWEVER, the lesson we have learned from this is not worthless, even with a fully-RAW view of things. You just don't need Elven Generalist Wizard. Or Domain Wizard, for that matter. You just need Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, and Heighten Spell.
You still need to leave 2 slots empty when you prepare spells in order to cast a "higher level spell". BUT, if you have Heighten Spell and use it on another spell you know, you can cast THAT spell as a higher-level spell. Let's say your 3rd level wizard burns 2 L2 slots to cast a Heightened Melf's Acid Arrow. It will just raise the DC, and your caster level won't change, but...
You ARGUABLY meet Feat/Prestige Class requirements of "able to cast level x spells". Because a Heightened Melf's Acid Arrow cast from a 3rd level slot is as level 3 spell. You're not violating the Caster Level/Spell Level rules because your caster level is still low enough to cast MAA, even though the Heightened MAA now counts as a 3rd level spell. You still don't meet prereqs of "able to prepare and cast x level spells", but you DO meet "able to SPONTANEOUSLY cast x level spells" requirements.
That's still kind of cheesy, and expect most DMs to disallow it. But TECHNICALLY it's RAW.

[Name1]

You're not violating the Caster Level/Spell Level rules because your caster level is still low enough to cast MAA, even though the Heightened MAA now counts as a 3rd level spell.

I don't get this: Why does it matter if you can cast MMA? You still can't cast 3rd level spells, so the Heightened MMA could still not be cast, since it is a 3rd level spell.

[eggynack]

I'ma just address a few main claims, and leave the rest to folks more knowledgeable about this combo.

Do note, however, that because VS requires the spontaneous casting of spells, only spell slots that are left empty during spell preparation (as per AC) can be "sacrificed" to cast a higher level spell.

Untrue. Spontaneity is only a prerequisite, and not a requirement on the spells you give up. The spells lost can be any spells, not just ones that happen to be spontaneous.

Fact is, as I have shown from the bolded text, that DW is still specializing, but in a domain instead of a school of magic. The EGW traded away his ability to specialize in a school of magic class feature in favor of the ACF. DW is using a variant form of that same class feature. One that an EGW no longer has. If you do not have "ability to specialize in a school of magic" as a class feature, you are not eligible for a VARIANT of that class feature.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the domain wizard is still specializing in a sense, but doing so doesn't involve trading. The only requirement to taking domain wizard is that you haven't specialized, and you haven't. You are still getting the versatility offered by specialization. That that wasn't an option to you anyway is irrelevant.

To wit: A Barbarian who is using the Spiritual Totem (Lion) ACF from Complete Champion has traded away his Fast Movement class feature at level 1. Said character CANNOT also take the Lion Totem variant in Unearthed Arcana, which trades away fast movement, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, because he no longer has fast movement as a class feature to give up. But he COULD take the Horse totem from Unearthed Arcana, which trades away uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features. That Horse/Lion barbarian could still take the level 7 ACF from Complete Champion, because that trades away Damage Reduction, but could not take the level 5 ACF in Complete Champion, because he has already traded Improved Uncanny Dodge.

The difference here is that both of those ACF's involve trades. Domain wizard doesn't have one.

Step 1: Prepare your spells for the day. As an EGW/DW with an INT of 20, you have 5 L1 spell slots. At least 2 of which you must leave empty, in order to use the AC+VS combo.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Domain Wizard specifies that the bonus spell per day slot for DW "must be filled with the spell from that level of the domain spell list". Which means THAT slot may not be left empty. EGW says that the character "may also prepare one additional spell of her highest spell level each day". So THAT spell slot may not be left empty. This means that if the EGW/DW is trying to leave ALL her spell slots empty, then she only has 3. Because both of those bonus slots MUST be filled, by the RAW.

As per my above note, this is not an issue. Leaving spells empty is irrelevant.

Second, the assumption that a wizard HAS a L2 spell "known" hinges on the text of the DW which says that she "automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it." HOWEVER, wizard spells "known" are different from sorcerer ones in that a wizard "knows" every spell in her spellbook (and/or has used Spell Mastery on). So does this new L2 spell just "appear" in her spellbook?

Not necessarily. The spellbook is the primary way that a wizard knows a given spell. New things are allowed to add to that set that constitutes wizard spell knowledge, however. This is one of those things. You know this new spell in spite of it not being in your book. It's not like the domain wizard was built for non-wizards. This spontaneous added spell knowledge is a part of the system.

[RedMage125]

I'ma just address a few main claims, and leave the rest to folks more knowledgeable about this combo.


Untrue. Spontaneity is only a prerequisite, and not a requirement on the spells you give up. The spells lost can be any spells, not just ones that happen to be spontaneous.

No, because once you prepare a spell in that slot it is a "prepared spell" and not just a "spell slot". You must expend 2 "spell slots". Spontaneous casters have "spells known" and "spell slots" from which to cast them. And as the feat REQUIRES spontaneous casting, they MUST be spontaneous cast-able "spell slots".

Don't believe me? Check out PHB pages 177-178. They very clearly use language about "spell slots" and "prepared spells".

Thus, in order to even BE a "spell slot" there must be no prepared spell in that slot.

Yes, the domain wizard is still specializing in a sense, but doing so doesn't involve trading. The only requirement to taking domain wizard is that you haven't specialized, and you haven't. You are still getting the versatility offered by specialization. That that wasn't an option to you anyway is irrelevant.

The difference here is that both of those ACF's involve trades. Domain wizard doesn't have one.

You can't use a Variant Class Feature for a Class Feature you do not have. Everyone who tries to push for this is so focused on the words "you cannot also be a specialist wizard" that they choose to ignore "specializing in a domain instead of an entire school". Which is part of the same freaking sentence. They do this intentionally so they can get what they want.

Ignoring text so you can get your way does not make your way RAW compliant.

Not necessarily. The spellbook is the primary way that a wizard knows a given spell. New things are allowed to add to that set that constitutes wizard spell knowledge, however. This is one of those things. You know this new spell in spite of it not being in your book. It's not like the domain wizard was built for non-wizards. This spontaneous added spell knowledge is a part of the system.

Prove, with RAW, what you are claiming. Because RIGHT AFTER it says you "know the spell as soon as you are able to cast spells of that level" it specifies that the domain spell does NOT count as one of the 2 known per wizard level (both of which go in your spellbook). It's literally the next sentence. The domain spell is supposed to go in your spellbook.

Furthermore, you STILL can't cast a 2nd level spell at level 1 because you don't meet Caster Level Requirements.

I'll concede that if someone also had Precocious Apprentice (which offers a Specific exception to the General Rule about casting spells of 2nd level below minimum caster level), they could burn 2 L1 spell slots to cast that L2 spell, but that's about it.

[AnachroNinja]

I think there are points to be made in both directions. I do agree with the prepared spell vs spell slot thing though. The magic item set in the MIC that all let you sacrifice a slot to cast fireball/teleport/whatever all use the specific language "you can sacrifice a prepared spell or a spell slot" which at least indicates they are different.

That said, you are wrong about the EGW and Domain Wizard thing. A key rule is that you apply effects in the order most beneficial to you. When you apply EGW, you are not specialized and so it is valid. When you apply domain wizard it prevents you from specializing normally. It does not cause you to be a specialist wizard, so you are still a valid target for both ACFs.

I find it hilarious that you seriously spent so much time trying, quite clearly desperately, to prove this doesn't work. Not only that but you definitely over stated your case in several areas in your rush to prove it so very wrong. Not sure why it seems to be such a personal issue for you.

[Doc_Maynot]

Using an excerpt from the D&D Glossary to bring in some potentially clarifying information.

spell slot
The "space" in a spellcaster's mind dedicated to holding a spell of a particular spell level. A spellcaster has enough spell slots to accommodate an entire day's allotment of spells. Spellcasters who must prepare their spells in advance generally fill their spell slots during the preparation period, though a few slots can be left open for spells prepared later in the day. A spellcaster can always opt to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell, if desired.

Source: PHB

[eggynack]

No, because once you prepare a spell in that slot it is a "prepared spell" and not just a "spell slot". You must expend 2 "spell slots". Spontaneous casters have "spells known" and "spell slots" from which to cast them. And as the feat REQUIRES spontaneous casting, they MUST be spontaneous cast-able "spell slots".

Don't believe me? Check out PHB pages 177-178. They very clearly use language about "spell slots" and "prepared spells".

Thus, in order to even BE a "spell slot" there must be no prepared spell in that slot.

Where in your cited text does it say that a spell slot with a spell in it is no longer a spell slot? You're filling the spell slot with a prepared spell, but that doesn't strictly imply that a filled slot is not a slot.

You can't use a Variant Class Feature for a Class Feature you do not have. Everyone who tries to push for this is so focused on the words "you cannot also be a specialist wizard" that they choose to ignore "specializing in a domain instead of an entire school". Which is part of the same freaking sentence. They do this intentionally so they can get what they want.

Ignoring text so you can get your way does not make your way RAW compliant.

It's not a variant class feature. It's a variant class. You are a domain wizard, as opposed to a normal wizard. You are still specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, so that text isn't being ignored at all. It doesn't matter if that's actually an option for you, because you're still choosing one, the one you can choose, over the other, the one you can't. And, more specifically on that point, the text you keep pointing to does not strictly imply a trade. Or imply a trade at all. Domain wizard is rather unique in this, in that it specifically does not indicate this sort of trade. Said uniqueness means that there doesn't really exist parity between this ACF and others.

Prove, with RAW, what you are claiming.

Sure? "A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells." So, they're on your list of known spells. This is all pretty direct. You can ask the exact way they're in your known spells, but no matter how you work it, these spells are explicitly known spells.

[Quertus]

And I challenge the caster level bit.

Spell slots are tied to class level, not caster level.

Items that boost caster level do not add slots.

Temporary negative levels ("energy drain"?) explicitly do remove spell slots, but not in a way consistent with interpreting the quoted rules as requiring minimum caster levels to cast spells.

The quoted rules seem best interpreted as, "casters may not voluntarily lower their caster level below the minimum class level at which they receive slots with which to cast the spell".

[DarkSoul]

The quoted rules seem best interpreted as, "casters may not voluntarily lower their caster level below the minimum class level at which they receive slots with which to cast the spell".

Agreed, with an addition of "even if they receive 0 slots." This accounts for things like Ur-Priest 9 and 9th level spells.

I think a quick and dirty solution is to say that EGW only checks for whether the floating slot moves whenever you gain a level that advances your wizard casting. That gets rid of the "spell slot level changes from day to day or round to round" nonsense. That's my interpretation anyway.

[RedMage125]

And I challenge the caster level bit.

Spell slots are tied to class level, not caster level.

Caster Level is ALSO tied to class level. Shock.

Items that boost caster level do not add slots.

Temporary negative levels ("energy drain"?) explicitly do remove spell slots, but not in a way consistent with interpreting the quoted rules as requiring minimum caster levels to cast spells.

Actually they do. If a level 6 wizard has 3 L3 spells prepared, and gets hit with 2 negative levels, she loses 2 of her prepared L3 spells. But she can no longer CAST the other one, because her CL is too low to cast L3 spells. This is no different than the rules for intentionally lowering one's caster level. The difference is, once the cleric hits her with Restoration, she can cast that other L3 spell. The two that she lost are gone for the day.

The quoted rules seem best interpreted as, "casters may not voluntarily lower their caster level below the minimum class level at which they receive slots with which to cast the spell".

Your "interpretation" aside, the RAW are actually quite clear that you CANNOT cast a spell with a lower CL than the minimum for YOUR CLASS to cast that spell. So Wizards with CL below 3 cannot cast L2 or higher spells.

Precocious Apprentice is a very specific exception to this rule, spelled out in that feat description.

Where in your cited text does it say that a spell slot with a spell in it is no longer a spell slot? You're filling the spell slot with a prepared spell, but that doesn't strictly imply that a filled slot is not a slot.

I went through the PHB on Wizards and spells. Re-read pages 177-178 of the PHB and get back to me. At NO point do they ever refer to wizard "spell slots" as anything but the empty ones.

Also, as mentioned, there are magic items that allow the user to expend "a prepared spell OR a spell slot".

It's not a variant class feature. It's a variant class. You are a domain wizard, as opposed to a normal wizard.

Just a note here, this undercuts your idea that they can be used together, as the ACF is for Elf Wizard, not Elf Domain Wizard.

You are still specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, so that text isn't being ignored at all. It doesn't matter if that's actually an option for you, because you're still choosing one, the one you can choose, over the other, the one you can't. And, more specifically on that point, the text you keep pointing to does not strictly imply a trade. Or imply a trade at all. Domain wizard is rather unique in this, in that it specifically does not indicate this sort of trade. Said uniqueness means that there doesn't really exist parity between this ACF and others.

Spoken like every other min-maxer who wants to get the rules to say what benefits himself.

I bolded your words there, because if you do not have the class feature "ability to specialize in a school", then how can you take an option that is explicitly an additional choice of specialization?

If your Class features are A, B, and C. You take a substitution level that trades B for X. And you also want to take an option that says "you can use this option to do R instead of B, but you can't do B and R together, they are mutually exclusive". You no longer have "B" as a class feature, so you cannot take the other option. You don't get A, X, C and R. You can have A,B,C or A,X,C, or A,R,C. You people only want to see "can't have B and R together" and think "I have X instead of B, so I can also have R". No. That's willfully ignorant, selfish and greedy. And it's not in keeping with the RAW.

Sure? "A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells." So, they're on your list of known spells. This is all pretty direct. You can ask the exact way they're in your known spells, but no matter how you work it, these spells are explicitly known spells.

That's just repeating the same garbage, doing no work, finding no RAW support.

Prove that a wizard has "spells known" that are not in his spellbook, or taken with the feat Spell Mastery.

You can run through every RAW book, but you won't find it.

And it's moot, anyway, because EVEN IF you were right, a wizard can't cast a L2 spell with a CL of 1.

I think there are points to be made in both directions. I do agree with the prepared spell vs spell slot thing though. The magic item set in the MIC that all let you sacrifice a slot to cast fireball/teleport/whatever all use the specific language "you can sacrifice a prepared spell or a spell slot" which at least indicates they are different.

That said, you are wrong about the EGW and Domain Wizard thing. A key rule is that you apply effects in the order most beneficial to you. When you apply EGW, you are not specialized and so it is valid. When you apply domain wizard it prevents you from specializing normally. It does not cause you to be a specialist wizard, so you are still a valid target for both ACFs.

I find it hilarious that you seriously spent so much time trying, quite clearly desperately, to prove this doesn't work. Not only that but you definitely over stated your case in several areas in your rush to prove it so very wrong. Not sure why it seems to be such a personal issue for you.

It's really because the very first time I heard of this years ago, I looked at the books and immediately saw about 5 different reasons why it doesn't work.

It has nothing to do with the combination of EGW and DW anyway. That's a side argument, which is why it was spoiler blocked.

The main thing...the "leapfrogging" of spell levels, does not work. No matter what way you twist it, the bonus spell per day from EGW does not "float". It is an extra spell that may be PREPARED each day. And at the time a level 1 wizard PREPARES her spells, the EGW bonus one would have to be L1. VS does not grant "a L2 slot", it lets the wizard CAST a L2 spell (or, more correctly by RAW, a Heightened L1 spell). The Leapfrog Wizard fails to follow RAW, and is thus invalid.

That is the main point. If people wish to continue debating only the EGW+DW thing, they can start their own thread.

[Name1]

VS does not grant "a L2 slot", it lets the wizard CAST a L2 spell (or, more correctly by RAW, a Heightened L1 spell).

Again, why is the fact that it's a heightened spell so important? Why are they exempt from the CL-rule?

[AnachroNinja]

Don't try to point out the "many" reasons something doesn't work, and then when people dispute specific ones claim that those ones you listed weren't the point of the thread. If you didn't want that discussed, you shouldn't have typed anything about it, spoiler or no.

Again, I'm in agreement that aspects of this concept probably do not work. But your arguing utter nonsense half the time. No one is claiming that versatile spellcaster gives them a slot, so there's no reason for you to be vehemently denying that it does. No one thinks it does. It does make you able to cast a second level spell, which does by a very strict reading grant you a domain spell slot and an extra slot for EGW. And yes I saw your argument about how you can't sacrifice those spell slots because they disappear after you finish casting whatever you used versatile spell caster for. That's also wrong.

Let's break this down. If I can cast spells of a given level, I immediately know my domain spell, gain a domain slot, and then gain an extra spell slot due to EGW. Once I have them, they become self supporting. Because I have a 2nd level slot from EGW, I can cast second level spells so I keep my domain slot. Because I have a domain slot, I can cast second level spells and so retain my EGW bonus slot. It's circular, but valid. I gained them both simultaneously, and each one qualifies me for the other. The same thing occurs when I sacrifice those slots for a third level spell. That aspect of this works flawlessly.

[DarkSoul]

Again, why is the fact that it's a heightened spell so important? Why are they exempt from the CL-rule?

It's not that they're exempt, it's because you heighten a level 1 spell you already know, thus getting around the problem with domain wizard spells or having to figure out how a level 1 wizard knows a second level spell. Granted, a mastered spellbook and a good spellcraft check sidesteps the problem rather neatly, but heighten does it with minimal extra equipment. Also, Versatile Spellcaster creates a specific exception to the CL rule in the same way that Precocious Apprentice does.

[eggynack]

.
I went through the PHB on Wizards and spells. Re-read pages 177-178 of the PHB and get back to me. At NO point do they ever refer to wizard "spell slots" as anything but the empty ones.

Also, as mentioned, there are magic items that allow the user to expend "a prepared spell OR a spell slot".

The glossary, as was noted, does indicate that a spell slot is something that can be filled. There is no implication anywhere that a spell slot filled discontinues its spell slot nature.

Just a note here, this undercuts your idea that they can be used together, as the ACF is for Elf Wizard, not Elf Domain Wizard.

Eh, you're still a wizard. It's not a different class.

Spoken like every other min-maxer who wants to get the rules to say what benefits himself.

There's no reason to make this stuff personal. Either it works or it doesn't.

I bolded your words there, because if you do not have the class feature "ability to specialize in a school", then how can you take an option that is explicitly an additional choice of specialization?

Because it's not modifying your specialization. It's granting a wholly new form of specialization.

If your Class features are A, B, and C. You take a substitution level that trades B for X. And you also want to take an option that says "you can use this option to do R instead of B, but you can't do B and R together, they are mutually exclusive". You no longer have "B" as a class feature, so you cannot take the other option. You don't get A, X, C and R. You can have A,B,C or A,X,C, or A,R,C. You people only want to see "can't have B and R together" and think "I have X instead of B, so I can also have R". No. That's willfully ignorant, selfish and greedy. And it's not in keeping with the RAW.

I disagree, obviously. None of this is an actual argument. It's just obfuscating the issue with letters.

That's just repeating the same garbage, doing no work, finding no RAW support.

The book says you get this as a spell known. That's the highest possible RAW support that exists. It's an absolute and explicit mention. I don't need anything else.

Prove that a wizard has "spells known" that are not in his spellbook, or taken with the feat Spell Mastery.

Again, sure. It's right in that text. Whether any spells known exist outside of the spellbook, spell mastery, or domain wizard is irrelevant, because it's explicitly granted by those three things. And, y'know, whatever else grants it, cause I don't want to arbitrarily exclude obscure stuff.

You can run through every RAW book, but you won't find it.

Oh, hey, look, I just did. In domain wizard. It could be literally the only other source of spells known, and it'd still be such a source.

And it's moot, anyway, because EVEN IF you were right, a wizard can't cast a L2 spell with a CL of 1.

Maybe, or maybe not. Honestly, it seems like the caster level thing is the only plausibly correct element of your argument, and it's one that's been made by Tippy for awhile. It feels like a lot like you're packaging a decent rules argument in a bunch of weird and inaccurate claims.

[Troacctid]

Eh, you're still a wizard. It's not a different class.

It may be. Unearthed Arcana is wishy-washy on whether variant classes count as the same class as the normal version, and even suggests that you may be able to multiclass between them.

For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate).

[eggynack]

It may be. Unearthed Arcana is wishy-washy on whether variant classes count as the same class as the normal version, and even suggests that you may be able to multiclass between them.

Yeah, but it's really similar. You're not altering any class features, or casting, or really much of anything besides this one element. Moreover, my point was that, even if you're not the same class, you're still a wizard, and you're still taking a level in wizard.

Anyway, it doesn't matter all that much. You're not taking domain wizard and then elven generalist. That doesn't work. Domain wizard says you have zero normal specialization ability, and elven generalist demands you have the specialization ability to trade away. If you go that direction, then it fails however you read it. The order of operations here is elven generalist and then domain wizard. Thus, you pick up this generalist wizardry ability, and then some modification happens through domain wizard, either to your class or specifically to your specialization, but it doesn't matter because the generalist wizardry is already yours.

[animewatcha]

I've always taken one of them as "I can't be an evoker" and the other as being "I can't be a force missile mage."

[TheifofZ]

An important thing to note here that's getting bypassed by LITERALLY EVERYONE is the note that a Wizard may fill any empty spell slot with any spell he knows from his spellbook at any time, so long as the Wizard spends 15 minutes (Or less with the right cheese) in meditation, as if the wizard were preparing his spells for the day.

Long and short of it: Wizards can never instantly prepare a spell they know without a boatload of cheese to reduce meditation time.
Even using Spell Mastery to always have the ability to prepare the spell, the spell is not instantly prepared. You, the wizard, must sit down and spend a period of time translating the formula of the spell into the prepared energy of the spell.
It's the same with Domain Wizard; you know the spell. That does not instantly give you the spell prepared as soon as a spell slot opens up.

If, at any time, a wizard has open slots and wishes to fill them, he must meditate to do so.

It's basically saying 'hey, so you can leave slots open so you can be flexible with your spells over the day, but you still have to sit down and prepare them beforehand. You just can find out what you need first.'

[DarkSoul]

An important thing to note here that's getting bypassed by LITERALLY EVERYONE is the note that a Wizard may fill any empty spell slot with any spell he knows from his spellbook at any time, so long as the Wizard spends 15 minutes (Or less with the right cheese) in meditation, as if the wizard were preparing his spells for the day.

Long and short of it: Wizards can never instantly prepare a spell they know without a boatload of cheese to reduce meditation time.
Even using Spell Mastery to always have the ability to prepare the spell, the spell is not instantly prepared. You, the wizard, must sit down and spend a period of time translating the formula of the spell into the prepared energy of the spell.
It's the same with Domain Wizard; you know the spell. That does not instantly give you the spell prepared as soon as a spell slot opens up.

If, at any time, a wizard has open slots and wishes to fill them, he must meditate to do so.

It's basically saying 'hey, so you can leave slots open so you can be flexible with your spells over the day, but you still have to sit down and prepare them beforehand. You just can find out what you need first.'

This has no effect at all on the process; that's why no one's mentioning it. A wizard could prepare 0 spells for the day and do this, assuming it worked in the first place. It's all spontaneous casting of spells the wizard knows.

[RedMage125]

Again, why is the fact that it's a heightened spell so important? Why are they exempt from the CL-rule?

It's important because they are NOT exempt from the CL-rule.

Don't try to point out the "many" reasons something doesn't work, and then when people dispute specific ones claim that those ones you listed weren't the point of the thread. If you didn't want that discussed, you shouldn't have typed anything about it, spoiler or no.

The "leapfrogging" trick doesn't work even if EGW+DW is allowed, which is why it was a side argument. Proving that the two cannot be used together is tangential to the point of the thread.

Again, I'm in agreement that aspects of this concept probably do not work. But your arguing utter nonsense half the time. No one is claiming that versatile spellcaster gives them a slot, so there's no reason for you to be vehemently denying that it does. No one thinks it does.

Some people DO argue for that, actually. Which is why I pointed that out.

It does make you able to cast a second level spell, which does by a very strict reading grant you a domain spell slot and an extra slot for EGW.

No and no.
By no reading you get a domain slot. The idea of that is antithetical to "A domain wizard prepares and casts spells like a normal wizard" from the RAW
And...since the distinction between "spell slot" and "prepared spell" has been brought up, why don't you re-read EGW again for yourself. EGW may PREPARE an extra spell. Nothing ever calls it a "spell slot", and there is NOTHING in the RAW that directly states or implies that the slot would somehow "float" throughout the day.

And yes I saw your argument about how you can't sacrifice those spell slots because they disappear after you finish casting whatever you used versatile spell caster for. That's also wrong.

You think you can expend spell slots and then...not have them be expended?

Let's break this down. If I can cast spells of a given level, I immediately know my domain spell, gain a domain slot, and then gain an extra spell slot due to EGW.

Incorrect on so many levels.
First of all, the closest thing you have to a coherent argument is that you "know your domain spell", because of the way DW words that particular feature. Your next step...where you think you get a bonus slot...you're going off books. The sentence that mentions the DW's bonus slot comes after "prepares and casts spells like a normal wizard". Normal wizards are ineligible for any kind of bonus slot, whether from high INT or school specialization, until their class level is high enough. You know, because of what the rules say.
Player's Handbook, page 7:
"In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details.) For instance, the wizard Mialee has an Intelligence score of 15, so she’s smart enough to get one bonus 1st level spell and one bonus 2nd-level spell. (She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)"

Twice in one paragraph. So you may KNOW your domain spell, but cannot cast it, even when you use AC+VS combo, because you don't have kind of special exemption from the rules saying that a level 1 character can't cast a L2 spell.
And the EGW bonus spell is one that must be PREPARED. At the time of your spell preparation, you only had L1 spells, so you can prepare that EGW spell as a L1 spell.

Once I have them, they become self supporting. Because I have a 2nd level slot from EGW, I can cast second level spells so I keep my domain slot. Because I have a domain slot, I can cast second level spells and so retain my EGW bonus slot. It's circular, but valid. I gained them both simultaneously, and each one qualifies me for the other. The same thing occurs when I sacrifice those slots for a third level spell. That aspect of this works flawlessly.

You have no RAW proof for any of this. It's completely circular. It has no foundation. The "starting point" of your argument hinges on points in the middle that depend, in turn, on that starting point.
And all of it based on flawed reasoning. You don't get a "bonus slot" from EGW. I've been over this point so many times.

An important thing to note here that's getting bypassed by LITERALLY EVERYONE is the note that a Wizard may fill any empty spell slot with any spell he knows from his spellbook at any time, so long as the Wizard spends 15 minutes (Or less with the right cheese) in meditation, as if the wizard were preparing his spells for the day.

Long and short of it: Wizards can never instantly prepare a spell they know without a boatload of cheese to reduce meditation time.
Even using Spell Mastery to always have the ability to prepare the spell, the spell is not instantly prepared. You, the wizard, must sit down and spend a period of time translating the formula of the spell into the prepared energy of the spell.
It's the same with Domain Wizard; you know the spell. That does not instantly give you the spell prepared as soon as a spell slot opens up.

If, at any time, a wizard has open slots and wishes to fill them, he must meditate to do so.

It's basically saying 'hey, so you can leave slots open so you can be flexible with your spells over the day, but you still have to sit down and prepare them beforehand. You just can find out what you need first.'

Ummm...you may want to follow the link for the Alacritous Cogitation spell. It's in the OP.

The glossary, as was noted, does indicate that a spell slot is something that can be filled. There is no implication anywhere that a spell slot filled discontinues its spell slot nature.

There's also no indication, from anywhere in the RAW, that you can, with VS, expend a "prepared spell" in the place of a "spell slot". Because that's what you're claiming.

There's no reason to make this stuff personal. Either it works or it doesn't.

Because it's not modifying your specialization. It's granting a wholly new form of specialization.

Unearthed Arcana is full of VARIANTS. Each Class VARIANT exchanges something from the core class' features for some new variation on it.

I disagree, obviously. None of this is an actual argument. It's just obfuscating the issue with letters.

I was trying to make it MORE clear, actually.

The book says you get this as a spell known. That's the highest possible RAW support that exists. It's an absolute and explicit mention. I don't need anything else.

Again, sure. It's right in that text. Whether any spells known exist outside of the spellbook, spell mastery, or domain wizard is irrelevant, because it's explicitly granted by those three things. And, y'know, whatever else grants it, cause I don't want to arbitrarily exclude obscure stuff.

Oh, hey, look, I just did. In domain wizard. It could be literally the only other source of spells known, and it'd still be such a source.

Saying "the only proof for my claim is the one sentence that makes me think it's true to begin with" is not support.
You could support this claim if you could find something for the core wizard, which is what I was asking, since domain wizards "prepare and cast spells like a normal wizard".

PROVE, with RAW support, that a wizard can have a "spell known" that is not in her spellbook or taken with the Spell Mastery feat.

I'll wait.

Maybe, or maybe not. Honestly, it seems like the caster level thing is the only plausibly correct element of your argument, and it's one that's been made by Tippy for awhile. It feels like a lot like you're packaging a decent rules argument in a bunch of weird and inaccurate claims.

LOL.
That's the only thing you see as correct? So you're willing to buy into all the other garbage nonsense about "floating spell slots" that suddenly appear in the middle of the day, despite no RAW support, which in fact flies in the face of RAW regarding how wizards refresh slots, and all text regarding the EGW's bonus prepared spell, and everything else that is just Munchkin Fallacy after Munchkin Fallacy?

[EdRed]

Is OP a troll or actually serious about discussing in this ...odd manner?
Why take the bait when he obviously will not budge on a single letter he wrote regardless of what proof you produce.

[RedMage125]

Is OP a troll or actually serious about discussing in this ...odd manner?
Why take the bait when he obviously will not budge on a single letter he wrote regardless of what proof you produce.

I'm actually serious. There are a lot of people who seem to think this "trick" is, in any way, supported by RAW.

Those that claim such are deliberately ignoring the way a lot of the rules actually work, equating "prepares an extra spell each day" with "gets an extra spell slot", and generally making a lot of assumptions that the rules work in a certain way that the text does not support.

To assume that something IS permissible due to the absence of text explicitly saying it is NOT is Munchkin Fallacy.

And I started the thread because the topic came up again recently in another thread.

And I would welcome any counter-points that were actually supported by text from the RAW that doesn't require flat-out IGNORING the rest of the text. It's not "bait", it's an open invitation to actually produce PROOF that disproves what I've said.

[Name1]

It's not that they're exempt, it's because you heighten a level 1 spell you already know, thus getting around the problem with domain wizard spells or having to figure out how a level 1 wizard knows a second level spell. Granted, a mastered spellbook and a good spellcraft check sidesteps the problem rather neatly, but heighten does it with minimal extra equipment. Also, Versatile Spellcaster creates a specific exception to the CL rule in the same way that Precocious Apprentice does.

Oh ok, now I get it. Thanks for clearing that up for me :D

[bean illus]

Let's break this down. If I can cast spells of a given level, I immediately know my domain spell, gain a domain slot, and then gain an extra spell slot due to EGW. Once I have them, they become self supporting. Because I have a 2nd level slot from EGW, I can cast second level spells so I keep my domain slot. Because I have a domain slot, I can cast second level spells and so retain my EGW bonus slot. It's circular, but valid. I gained them both simultaneously, and each one qualifies me for the other. The same thing occurs when I sacrifice those slots for a third level spell. That aspect of this works flawlessly.

Not in Microsoft Excel. The spreadsheet would alert you that your lack of logic was impossible to reconcile, and refuse to calculate further equations extrapolated from the result in question.

[Quertus]

Not in Microsoft Excel. The spreadsheet would alert you that your lack of logic was impossible to reconcile, and refuse to calculate further equations extrapolated from the result in question.

I really don't see the point of this being 2 threads...

As I said in the original thread, to paraphrase, if you write your excel spreadsheet to accept "has 2 slots available of level x" to qualify you for "can cast spells of level x+1", and you write your floating slot s.t. it can count as one of those two slots, and you write your level y domain bonus spell to trigger as soon as you "can cast" a spell of level y, then your sheet should auto populate to infinity and beyond (and the domain spell will, by itself, continue to qualify for itself, once the alternate mechanic has subsidies it in the first place).

Unlike the op, I contend that "can cast" is very poorly defined reserve words, that mean something like, "has, through class levels / class features, access to 0 or more slots of the given level".

[eggynack]

There's also no indication, from anywhere in the RAW, that you can, with VS, expend a "prepared spell" in the place of a "spell slot". Because that's what you're claiming.

If the spell slot doesn't vanish, then you're still expending the spell slot. The prepared spell happens to disappear at the same time, because it was in the slot, but the slot is the thing you're getting rid of.

Unearthed Arcana is full of VARIANTS. Each Class VARIANT exchanges something from the core class' features for some new variation on it.

The text in the class section of unearthed arcana does not indicate what you're saying here. It notes that there are a number of variant classes, with no indication of whether these variants will strictly involve some loss (and the word variant itself does not imply these either), and then there's a subset of those variants that trade one class feature for another, except those are strictly defined as trading a feature from one class for one of another class. And while the domain wizard is modeled after domains, the ability is not anything like a direct copy of that ability, and this variant does not come from that section of the chapter. So, no, there does not need to be an exchange. And there isn't necessarily one here.

I was trying to make it MORE clear, actually.

Didn't really work all that well. Especially because I already knew what your argument was. It didn't need clarity. It needed support.

Saying "the only proof for my claim is the one sentence that makes me think it's true to begin with" is not support.

You could support this claim if you could find something for the core wizard, which is what I was asking, since domain wizards "prepare and cast spells like a normal wizard".

PROVE, with RAW support, that a wizard can have a "spell known" that is not in her spellbook or taken with the Spell Mastery feat.

I'll wait.

The support given is the only support necessary. I'm not saying that non-spellbook spells are usually spells known, or even ever spells known without this. I'm saying that this gives you spells known, because it says it does. A thing saying it does something is the highest form of proof that exists for it doing that thing in a rule set. You may as well argue that "fly" doesn't actually let you fly, because no support for wizards typically flying exists in the core rules, and the only such support is in the spell itself (or you can use some non-core spell if you like). This is just how exception based rule systems work. Something always works one way, and then a thing lets you do them a different way.

I mean, you keep bringing up spell mastery, right? Well, does that let you have spells known without a spellbook? The only support for it doing so is coming from the feat itself, after all. The truth is that it doesn't really matter what mechanism exists here. Maybe the words do spontaneously appear in the book. I don't particularly care. The text says the spells become spells known as soon as you have the ability to cast them. You have the ability to cast them, so they're spells known. That's what the RAW is. There is no way around it. You keep trying to argue around that with some RAI argument about how it doesn't make sense for the spells to spontaneously appear, but that stuff doesn't matter. All that matters to RAW is what the text says, and the text says that you get these as spells known. You can figure out the mechanism on your own time.

LOL.
That's the only thing you see as correct? So you're willing to buy into all the other garbage nonsense about "floating spell slots" that suddenly appear in the middle of the day, despite no RAW support, which in fact flies in the face of RAW regarding how wizards refresh slots, and all text regarding the EGW's bonus prepared spell, and everything else that is just Munchkin Fallacy after Munchkin Fallacy?

Pretty much. The rest actually seems pretty well supported, including the floating spell slots. The ability explicitly says that you get to prepare a spell of your highest spell level each day. If you get the ability to prepare a higher spell level, and you don't yet have the slot, then in that moment you're not being granted the bonus spell slot of your highest spell level. You're only being granted one of your second highest spell level. Thus, the text absolutely dictates that said slot must be granted to you. If you somehow needed to refresh that slot, then you wouldn't have been given the ability to prepare that spell in that level in that day, going against the wording of the ability. So, yeah, that RAW claim holds up rather well, I think.

[RedMage125]

If the spell slot doesn't vanish, then you're still expending the spell slot. The prepared spell happens to disappear at the same time, because it was in the slot, but the slot is the thing you're getting rid of.

Lack of text saying "I cannot do this" =\= Text saying "I CAN do this"

The text in the class section of unearthed arcana does not indicate what you're saying here. It notes that there are a number of variant classes, with no indication of whether these variants will strictly involve some loss (and the word variant itself does not imply these either), and then there's a subset of those variants that trade one class feature for another, except those are strictly defined as trading a feature from one class for one of another class. And while the domain wizard is modeled after domains, the ability is not anything like a direct copy of that ability, and this variant does not come from that section of the chapter. So, no, there does not need to be an exchange. And there isn't necessarily one here.

Didn't really work all that well. Especially because I already knew what your argument was. It didn't need clarity. It needed support.

You mean like the phrase "specializing in a domain INSTEAD of an entire school"?

So you think it's MORE likely that of all the class variant in Unearthed Arcana, ONLY the one for Wizard was "not a tradeoff"? On top of that, you just IGNORE the text that says a DW is "specializing in a domain INSTEAD of an entire school"?
And you think the LESS likely scenario is that the DW, like every other variant in that book, was exchanging one class feature for an alternate variant, an idea which is supported by the line "specializing in a domain instead of an entire school"?
Especially because that's part of the same sentence as "cannot also be a specialist wizard", which is followed by a semicolon. English refresher for you here, but when a semicolon is used to connect two ideas in a sentence, it means both of them carry equal weight. Which means that, grammatically, "cannot also be a specialist" and "specializing in a domain INSTEAD of an entire school", both are equal in importance to that sentence.
I'm not trying to be condescending or sarcastic, but what does that say to you?
Because to me, it says that these two ideas, they are related. You cannot be a DW and a specialist because you have chosen to specialize in a domain instead. The word "instead" means "in the place of" "a substitute" or "an alternative".

So, once again, a wizard cannot take an ALTERNATIVE option for a class feature she DOES NOT HAVE.

The support given is the only support necessary. I'm not saying that non-spellbook spells are usually spells known, or even ever spells known without this. I'm saying that this gives you spells known, because it says it does. A thing saying it does something is the highest form of proof that exists for it doing that thing in a rule set. You may as well argue that "fly" doesn't actually let you fly, because no support for wizards typically flying exists in the core rules, and the only such support is in the spell itself (or you can use some non-core spell if you like). This is just how exception based rule systems work. Something always works one way, and then a thing lets you do them a different way.

Except that even the flimsy excuse being used to support that claim is only because the text is incomplete. The very next sentence is "These spells do not count against her two new spells known per wizard level." And THOSE spells go in a wizard's spellbook, right? So the domain spells, like EVERY OTHER SPELL that a wizard "knows", goes in her spellbook.

Also, the entire idea is rendered academic, because even by using AC+VS to sacrifice 2 L1 spell slots, she cannot CAST a L2 spell (PHB page 7 and again page 171). She can use the slot to cast a Heightened L1 spell, but Precocious Apprentice is the only specific exception to the general rule about minimum caster level and effective class level minimums for spells above L1. Since she cannot CAST a L2 spell, she doesn't trigger any kind "instant spell known" for her L2 domain spell.

The RAI for Versatile Spellcaster was for spontaneous casters to be able to use lower-level spell slots to power higher level spells once they ran out of high-level slots. For example, a Sorcerer 6 who runs out of 3rd level slots. He can use VS to burn two L2 slots to cast a L3 spell he KNOWS (see? Spells Known isn't ambiguous with spontaneous casters). That same Sorcerer 6 trying to burn two of his L3 spell slots to cast a L4 spell that he knows would be a waste, because he does not KNOW any L4 spells. Although I suppose he could Empower a L2 spell that way...

Pretty much. The rest actually seems pretty well supported, including the floating spell slots. The ability explicitly says that you get to prepare a spell of your highest spell level each day. If you get the ability to prepare a higher spell level, and you don't yet have the slot, then in that moment you're not being granted the bonus spell slot of your highest spell level. You're only being granted one of your second highest spell level. Thus, the text absolutely dictates that said slot must be granted to you. If you somehow needed to refresh that slot, then you wouldn't have been given the ability to prepare that spell in that level in that day, going against the wording of the ability. So, yeah, that RAW claim holds up rather well, I think.

Thank you.

[AnachroNinja]

I just want to try to bring logic to this point one last time. If your able to prepare an additional spell... What are you preparing it IN if not a spell slot?

[eggynack]

Lack of text saying "I cannot do this" =\= Text saying "I CAN do this"

That argument doesn't apply. Either the prepared spell is in a spell slot that exists, in which case it works, or the spell slot somehow disappears when you put a spell into it, in which case it presumably doesn't.

You mean like the phrase "specializing in a domain INSTEAD of an entire school"?

No. I mean something like, "A barbarian dedicated to the lion totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features." Something that implies it's an ability you're trading away, instead of just a possible option you're forgoing.

So you think it's MORE likely that of all the class variant in Unearthed Arcana, ONLY the one for Wizard was "not a tradeoff"? On top of that, you just IGNORE the text that says a DW is "specializing in a domain INSTEAD of an entire school"?

If the text says so, yes. I follow the text, not likelihoods. Also, arbitrary point, not all variants involve a trade. Zhentarim soldier, the first half-orc druid substitution level, and the wild shape hands ability of fangshields druid substitution levels don't, for example. They're all pure upside once you've met the prerequisites. You could claim lack of parity because the prerequisite is the trade off, but in the same sense I can and do claim that not specializing is itself a prerequisite. Not a hard prerequisite to meet in this case, obviously, but given the fact that fangshields is accessible through dragonborn anthropomorphic bats, it's not always a hardship hitting these marks.

And you think the LESS likely scenario is that the DW, like every other variant in that book, was exchanging one class feature for an alternate variant, an idea which is supported by the line "specializing in a domain instead of an entire school"?

That's not precisely what I was saying, but again, I go by text and not likelihood. What I was saying was that being in that chapter does not strictly connote an exchange as you implied. It doesn't connote an exchange at all, actually. You need to prove that an exchange is occurring in this specific case, not point to surrounding cases, because you lack a general rule.

Especially because that's part of the same sentence as "cannot also be a specialist wizard", which is followed by a semicolon. English refresher for you here, but when a semicolon is used to connect two ideas in a sentence, it means both of them carry equal weight. Which means that, grammatically, "cannot also be a specialist" and "specializing in a domain INSTEAD of an entire school", both are equal in importance to that sentence.
I'm not trying to be condescending or sarcastic, but what does that say to you?
Because to me, it says that these two ideas, they are related. You cannot be a DW and a specialist because you have chosen to specialize in a domain instead. The word "instead" means "in the place of" "a substitute" or "an alternative".

So, once again, a wizard cannot take an ALTERNATIVE option for a class feature she DOES NOT HAVE.

The two sentences are related and relevant. It's just that you're also meeting the requirements of both sentences. You are indeed doing this instead of specializing. That you're getting paid to do so is irrelevant. Consider an analogous case. I could decide to go to the movies instead of taking a walk. The reason for this could be that I just want to do that, or it could just be because the relevant path is closed. It may make sense in a conversational form.

"Today, I shall go for a walk down cool guy avenue."
"Nah, cool guy avenue is closed for a weird roadside cool guy convention."
"Then, instead of going for a walk, I shall go to the movies."

That conversation holds up on a semantic level, so this in turn works.

Except that even the flimsy excuse being used to support that claim is only because the text is incomplete. The very next sentence is "These spells do not count against her two new spells known per wizard level." And THOSE spells go in a wizard's spellbook, right? So the domain spells, like EVERY OTHER SPELL that a wizard "knows", goes in her spellbook.

Who cares? Still spells known. Maybe they magically just appear in your book. It doesn't matter. The text says they're spells known, so they're spells known, and the ability says "as soon as" so it happens right away. This trick requires only that they be spells known, and they explicitly are.

Also, the entire idea is rendered academic, because even by using AC+VS to sacrifice 2 L1 spell slots, she cannot CAST a L2 spell (PHB page 7 and again page 171). She can use the slot to cast a Heightened L1 spell, but Precocious Apprentice is the only specific exception to the general rule about minimum caster level and effective class level minimums for spells above L1. Since she cannot CAST a L2 spell, she doesn't trigger any kind "instant spell known" for her L2 domain spell.

Other people are debating this point. I might at some point as well, but as I've already said, what you're doing here is repackaging what I think is an old Tippy argument with a bunch of inaccuracies. I take umbrage with the inaccuracies, because they have influence outside this particular trick. If you decide to agree on all the other points, I'll either stop arguing or start looking into the minutiae of caster level stuff. But you haven't, so I won't.

The RAI for Versatile Spellcaster was for spontaneous casters to be able to use lower-level spell slots to power higher level spells once they ran out of high-level slots. For example, a Sorcerer 6 who runs out of 3rd level slots. He can use VS to burn two L2 slots to cast a L3 spell he KNOWS (see? Spells Known isn't ambiguous with spontaneous casters). That same Sorcerer 6 trying to burn two of his L3 spell slots to cast a L4 spell that he knows would be a waste, because he does not KNOW any L4 spells. Although I suppose he could Empower a L2 spell that way...

Yeah, but I don't care all that much how it was intended. This is a RAW argument.

[RedMage125]

I just want to try to bring logic to this point one last time. If your able to prepare an additional spell... What are you preparing it IN if not a spell slot?

The difference is, the rules for regular wizard spell slots say that may prepare spells in them, or they may leave them blank, and spend like 15 minutes later in the day to prepare spells in them.

EGW says only that you may PREPARE an extra spell per day. So, by the most literal reading of that, if an EGW chose NOT to prepare that extra spell, she would NOT have an "empty slot" like one which she would use Alacritous Cogitation with. BUT, she COULD still prepare that spell later like a regular wizard could with normal slots.

But that's getting into some ridiculously nitpicky details. Because who keeps track of which of their spells are memorized in "regular" slots, vice the bonus slots from high INT? Who's to say that the person wasn't leaving REGULAR slots blank, and preparing a spell as the bonus provided by EGW? It's silly, but it's RAW. Because TECHNICALLY, there is a difference, but no one cares. But the point is, that EGW does NOT grant you a bonus "spell slot" that is as versatile as regular wizard slots. It explicitly MUST have a spell prepared in the "slot".

So the slot basically doesn't exist UNTIL you prepare a spell in it, for lack of a more concise explanation. It's Schrodinger's spell slot.